[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_136":-5,"_137":-5,"_138":139,"_140":141,"_142":143},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":-5,"_26":27,"_28":29,"_30":31,"_32":33,"_34":35,"_36":37,"_38":39,"_40":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":44,"_45":-5,"_46":47,"_48":49,"_50":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1172/deliberate-practice-is-different-than-just-practicing","id",1172,"title","Deliberate practice is different than just \"practicing\"","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.900\nAbsolutely. If you had to boil it down, that's really what it comes down to. It\n\n2\n00:00:04.900 --> 00:00:05.720\nis deliberate\n\n3\n00:00:05.720 --> 00:00:09.910\npractice, which is a very specifically defined thing, which I'll describe, is\n\n4\n00:00:09.910 --> 00:00:10.640\ndeliberate\n\n5\n00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:19.240\npractice done typically for hours a day, every day for years. And what the\n\n6\n00:00:19.240 --> 00:00:19.920\nworld's greatest\n\n7\n00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:25.420\nperformers have done is go through that and it's hard. It's not easy. But they\n\n8\n00:00:25.420 --> 00:00:25.760\n've gone\n\n9\n00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:29.880\nthrough that typically for years. So what is it? Well, one thing I learned when\n\n10\n00:00:29.880 --> 00:00:30.280\nI did\n\n11\n00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:35.360\nall the research for the book is that deliberate practice is not what most of\n\n12\n00:00:35.360 --> 00:00:36.680\nus think of when\n\n13\n00:00:36.680 --> 00:00:41.370\nwe think of practice. I discovered, for example, that what I do out on the\n\n14\n00:00:41.370 --> 00:00:42.400\ndriving range at\n\n15\n00:00:42.400 --> 00:00:48.410\nthe golf course is a pathetic example of deliberate practice. It's not even\n\n16\n00:00:48.410 --> 00:00:49.760\nclose. Fortunately,\n\n17\n00:00:49.760 --> 00:00:54.450\nalthough it's very specific, it's pretty simple to describe. Here's what\n\n18\n00:00:54.450 --> 00:00:55.160\ndeliberate practice\n\n19\n00:00:55.160 --> 00:01:02.530\nis. One, it is an activity that is designed, especially for you at your current\n\n20\n00:01:02.530 --> 00:01:03.400\nstage in\n\n21\n00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:07.440\nthe development of whatever it is you're doing, whether it's playing golf or\n\n22\n00:01:07.440 --> 00:01:08.960\nplaying the violin\n\n23\n00:01:08.960 --> 00:01:14.750\nor doing surgery or fly in a jet aircraft or whatever it is, it's designed\n\n24\n00:01:14.750 --> 00:01:15.800\nespecially\n\n25\n00:01:15.800 --> 00:01:22.940\nfor you at your current state of development. Two, it is designed to push you\n\n26\n00:01:22.940 --> 00:01:24.240\njust beyond\n\n27\n00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:28.480\nyour current abilities. It doesn't try to push you way beyond your current\n\n28\n00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:29.160\nabilities\n\n29\n00:01:29.160 --> 00:01:33.300\nbecause then you're just lost. You got no idea what to do. And it doesn't allow\n\n30\n00:01:33.300 --> 00:01:33.560\nyou\n\n31\n00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:38.210\nto operate within your current abilities because then you don't grow. It is\n\n32\n00:01:38.210 --> 00:01:39.480\nconstantly pushing\n\n33\n00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:45.130\nyou just past what you're able to do right now. It can be repeated at high\n\n34\n00:01:45.130 --> 00:01:46.080\nvolume. That\n\n35\n00:01:46.080 --> 00:01:51.630\nturns out to be very important. And the fourth thing, you're getting continual\n\n36\n00:01:51.630 --> 00:01:52.520\nfeedback.\n\n37\n00:01:52.520 --> 00:01:56.950\nYou can't get better if you don't know how you're doing. That's what deliberate\n\n38\n00:01:56.950 --> 00:01:57.320\npractice\n\n39\n00:01:57.320 --> 00:02:02.980\nboils down to. And that's the activity repeated, as I said, typically for hours\n\n40\n00:02:02.980 --> 00:02:04.080\na day, for years\n\n41\n00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:08.410\non end, that all the great performers, regardless of their field, typically\n\n42\n00:02:08.410 --> 00:02:09.440\nhave in common.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",624467,"end_time",753417,"keywords","slug","deliberate-practice-is-different-than-just-practicing","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","vMbQHo58ooI67yXsiWG922KuWA4Rhyd02tfJVgZKBbj8","mux_asset_id","xCHzoAYYAel01EKR00k6354Zf5IA3UDGA1j3028yMwCwoU","leader_id",144,"episode_id",143,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:39:46.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1172/deliberate-practice-is-different-than-just-practicing","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":35,"_100":101,"_102":103,"_104":105,"_25":106,"_107":108,"_61":109,"_58":109,"_110":111,"_68":112,"_38":113,"_114":-5,"_40":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_115":116,"_88":117,"_43":118,"_119":120,"_121":122,"_45":-5,"_123":124,"_125":126,"_92":127,"_50":-5},"episode",{"_13":37,"_15":51,"_26":52,"_17":53,"_54":55,"_18":56,"_20":57,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":-5,"_34":35,"_38":74,"_40":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_75":76,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":-5,"_84":-5,"_85":86,"_87":-5,"_88":-5,"_45":-5,"_89":90,"_91":-5,"_92":-5,"_50":-5},"og_image_media","Use deliberate practice to improve","use-deliberate-practice-to-improve","Learn what deliberate practice means and how it can help you improve at almost anything. See what leaders need to be focusing on as AI gains traction. Plus, why talent counts for less than you think – and what really matters when it comes to achieving excellence.","summary","

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to be excellent at something?

If so, you’re going to love this episode with Geoff Colvin. He’s the Senior Editor-at-Large for Fortune magazine and one of the most curious and articulate people I’ve had the pleasure of getting to know over the years.

Geoff is also fascinated by excellence in human performance, especially as it pertains to business leaders.

He’s spent decades talking to experts, analyzing research, and asking big questions. Today, you get to benefit from his know-how.

If there’s ANYTHING you want to get better at – whether it’s at work or at home – this conversation basically gives you a playbook for it.

Plus, we get into some bigger questions around AI and the skills leaders really need to be focusing on right now.

Your mind is going to be spinning with big insights – listen now!

You’ll also learn:

Why talent is overrated (and why that’s good news for you!)
The key to improving performance at practically anything
The 4 characteristics of practice that actually help you improve
Three qualities of a top-notch coach
The most important trait for us to develop as AI takes off

Take your learning further. Get proven leadership advice from these (free!) resources:

The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

Whichever you choose, you can be sure you’ll get the trusted leadership advice you need to advance your career, develop your team, and grow your business.

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.530\nWelcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:07.530 --> 00:00:08.320\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.520\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:10.520 --> 00:00:13.880\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:14.440\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.440 --> 00:00:18.320\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:20.560\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:20.560 --> 00:00:25.480\nHave you ever wondered what it really takes to be excellent at something?\n\n9\n00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:29.640\nIf so, you're going to love today's episode with Jeff Colbin.\n\n10\n00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:33.960\nHe's a senior editor at large for Fortune Magazine and one of the most curious\n\n11\n00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:35.000\nand articulate\n\n12\n00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:39.560\npeople I've ever had the pleasure of giving to know over the years.\n\n13\n00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:45.470\nSee, Jeff is also fascinated by excellence in human performance, especially for\n\n14\n00:00:45.470 --> 00:00:46.200\nbusiness\n\n15\n00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:47.320\nleaders.\n\n16\n00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:52.360\nHe spent decades talking to experts, analyzing research, and asking big\n\n17\n00:00:52.360 --> 00:00:54.440\nquestions, and today\n\n18\n00:00:54.440 --> 00:00:57.360\nyou get the benefit from his know-how.\n\n19\n00:00:57.360 --> 00:01:02.370\nIf there's anything you want to get better at, whether it's at work or at home,\n\n20\n00:01:02.370 --> 00:01:02.480\nthis\n\n21\n00:01:02.480 --> 00:01:05.920\nconversation basically gives you a playbook for it.\n\n22\n00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:11.380\nPlus, we get into some bigger questions around AI and the skills leaders really\n\n23\n00:01:11.380 --> 00:01:12.080\nneed to be\n\n24\n00:01:12.080 --> 00:01:14.920\nfocusing on right now.\n\n25\n00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:19.560\nI gotta tell you, your mind is going to be spinning with big insights, so let's\n\n26\n00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:20.080\nget right\n\n27\n00:01:20.080 --> 00:01:21.080\nto it.\n\n28\n00:01:21.080 --> 00:01:32.640\nHere's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Jeff Colbin.\n\n29\n00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:36.010\nJeff you may recall that I first got to know you when you did an article on\n\n30\n00:01:36.010 --> 00:01:36.760\nyoung brands\n\n31\n00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.320\nin the power of our recognition culture.\n\n32\n00:01:39.320 --> 00:01:42.980\nAnd I have to tell you, I've been looking forward to getting to ask you the\n\n33\n00:01:42.980 --> 00:01:43.600\nquestions\n\n34\n00:01:43.600 --> 00:01:46.520\nthis time, so thanks for being on the show.\n\n35\n00:01:46.520 --> 00:01:50.440\nI am so glad you asked me, I remember that article very well as you might well\n\n36\n00:01:50.440 --> 00:01:51.240\nimagine,\n\n37\n00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:55.110\nand visiting you and so many of your colleagues in Louisville and seeing how\n\n38\n00:01:55.110 --> 00:01:56.080\nyou do what you\n\n39\n00:01:56.080 --> 00:01:57.080\ndo.\n\n40\n00:01:57.080 --> 00:01:58.080\nAnd it was a great experience.\n\n41\n00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:01.280\nI can tell you it was a very popular article too, so thank you.\n\n42\n00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.640\nYou know in your book, and we're going to talk about some of your books today,\n\n43\n00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:05.040\nyou talk\n\n44\n00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:09.320\nabout the importance of a supportive environment for world-class performance.\n\n45\n00:02:09.320 --> 00:02:12.600\nWhat do you mean by a supportive environment?\n\n46\n00:02:12.600 --> 00:02:19.300\nUltimately, it's an environment in which a young person can try different\n\n47\n00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:20.360\nthings and\n\n48\n00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:26.160\nbe supported in what they want to do without excessive criticism.\n\n49\n00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:32.760\nIt's a fine line to walk, but be encouraged to do what they do, given the\n\n50\n00:02:32.760 --> 00:02:34.000\nfreedom to try\n\n51\n00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:40.920\ndifferent things and be sort of gently pushed, but not shoved.\n\n52\n00:02:40.920 --> 00:02:45.150\nI'll tell you though, it really summed it up for me when I was working on the\n\n53\n00:02:45.150 --> 00:02:45.400\nbook.\n\n54\n00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:50.020\nI got to know the preeminent researcher in the field of great performance, who\n\n55\n00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:50.800\nis a professor\n\n56\n00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.600\nat Florida State named Anders Erikson.\n\n57\n00:02:53.600 --> 00:03:00.190\nAnd he said to me at one point, you know, the real frontier on the research\n\n58\n00:03:00.190 --> 00:03:01.360\nhere is about\n\n59\n00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:03.160\nparenting.\n\n60\n00:03:03.160 --> 00:03:11.130\nHe said, \"The ability of a parent to make a kid understand that there is a path\n\n61\n00:03:11.130 --> 00:03:12.680\nto greatness,\n\n62\n00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:17.440\nand it's not easy, it's not short, but it's there.\n\n63\n00:03:17.440 --> 00:03:23.940\nTo make them appreciate that and want to go down that path without forcing them\n\n64\n00:03:23.940 --> 00:03:25.720\ntoo much,\n\n65\n00:03:25.720 --> 00:03:29.400\nthat's the art that some parents have and some don't.\"\n\n66\n00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.660\nNow, Jeff, I know you went off and went to Harvard, which is a great\n\n67\n00:03:32.660 --> 00:03:34.320\naccomplishment because everyone\n\n68\n00:03:34.320 --> 00:03:36.360\nknows how great that school is.\n\n69\n00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.000\nAnd you got your NBA at NYU.\n\n70\n00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.760\nWhat's your view on the NBA today?\n\n71\n00:03:41.760 --> 00:03:44.360\nIs it a must have for aspiring leaders?\n\n72\n00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:46.000\nI really don't think so at all.\n\n73\n00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:48.160\nIt's a great thing to get.\n\n74\n00:03:48.160 --> 00:03:52.760\nI mean, you learn some stuff there that will be valuable to you if you're going\n\n75\n00:03:52.760 --> 00:03:53.240\nto be a\n\n76\n00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:58.790\nleader in business, at a lot of business schools, the curriculum is being reim\n\n77\n00:03:58.790 --> 00:04:00.840\nagined, redone,\n\n78\n00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.800\nin ways that actually help leaders, I think.\n\n79\n00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:09.950\nMeaning what we're seeing at Harvard Business School, Stanford Business School,\n\n80\n00:04:09.950 --> 00:04:10.680\nand a bunch\n\n81\n00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:16.860\nof others, they're changing the curriculum to emphasize the skills of human\n\n82\n00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:18.280\ninteraction.\n\n83\n00:04:18.280 --> 00:04:23.520\nThey are putting people in situations where that's what they have to develop.\n\n84\n00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:25.080\nThey didn't used to do that.\n\n85\n00:04:25.080 --> 00:04:27.240\nIt was all just classroom stuff.\n\n86\n00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:32.110\nThey are understanding that these skills of human interaction are going to be\n\n87\n00:04:32.110 --> 00:04:32.480\nthe most\n\n88\n00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:36.520\nvaluable skills in the years ahead and they're training them.\n\n89\n00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:38.480\nSo it's a great thing.\n\n90\n00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:43.180\nBut I'll tell you, I know so many great leaders who don't have MBAs, that it's\n\n91\n00:04:43.180 --> 00:04:44.480\nclear to me,\n\n92\n00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:45.480\nit's not mandatory.\n\n93\n00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:49.610\nYou're obviously a big thinker about what's going on in the world and in\n\n94\n00:04:49.610 --> 00:04:50.440\nbusiness.\n\n95\n00:04:50.440 --> 00:04:54.620\nAnd you know, how do you develop your views and figure out what you really want\n\n96\n00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:55.160\nto write\n\n97\n00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:56.160\nabout?\n\n98\n00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:01.520\nWell, a lot of it is just talking to so many people.\n\n99\n00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:05.070\nOne of the great, great things about my job is that I do get to see a lot of\n\n100\n00:05:05.070 --> 00:05:05.800\nbusinesses\n\n101\n00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:11.320\nand a lot of leaders up pretty close and talk to them.\n\n102\n00:05:11.320 --> 00:05:15.720\nAnd another thing that helps is, I mean, I'm sincerely interested in this.\n\n103\n00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:19.720\nI'm not doing something because I have to do it.\n\n104\n00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:23.680\nI'm genuinely interested in all this stuff I get to do.\n\n105\n00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:28.160\nAnd so you accumulate a sort of critical mass of information.\n\n106\n00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.400\nYou start being able to connect things you hear.\n\n107\n00:05:31.400 --> 00:05:32.560\nAnd that's where it comes from.\n\n108\n00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.120\nBut there's another element in your question that's really important, which is\n\n109\n00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:35.560\nhow do I\n\n110\n00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:39.320\ndecide what I want to write about or what I think?\n\n111\n00:05:39.320 --> 00:05:40.320\nLike so many people.\n\n112\n00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:45.390\nI realize I don't really know what I think until I have to sit down and write\n\n113\n00:05:45.390 --> 00:05:45.920\nit.\n\n114\n00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:50.620\nThat's when you figure out that you've left something out, that you're not\n\n115\n00:05:50.620 --> 00:05:51.640\nbeing logical.\n\n116\n00:05:51.640 --> 00:05:55.110\nYou got to sit down to write it before at least I do before I really even know\n\n117\n00:05:55.110 --> 00:05:55.640\nwhat I\n\n118\n00:05:55.640 --> 00:05:56.640\nthink.\n\n119\n00:05:56.640 --> 00:05:59.550\nYou know, I always say there's nothing more sobering than looking at a blank\n\n120\n00:05:59.550 --> 00:05:59.960\nsheet of\n\n121\n00:05:59.960 --> 00:06:03.810\npaper or the blank computer screen and know that you've got to fill it up with\n\n122\n00:06:03.810 --> 00:06:04.920\nyour ideas\n\n123\n00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:06.080\nand your creativity.\n\n124\n00:06:06.080 --> 00:06:07.080\nYep.\n\n125\n00:06:07.080 --> 00:06:08.080\nIt's intimidating.\n\n126\n00:06:08.080 --> 00:06:11.160\nYou know, Jeff, I really loved your best-selling book.\n\n127\n00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:12.640\nTalent is overrated.\n\n128\n00:06:12.640 --> 00:06:16.520\nWhat really separates world-class performance from everybody else.\n\n129\n00:06:16.520 --> 00:06:18.480\nWhat led you to write that book?\n\n130\n00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.880\nIt came from an article I wrote for Fortune.\n\n131\n00:06:21.880 --> 00:06:27.490\nAn editor at Fortune came and said we're doing an issue about excellence, you\n\n132\n00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:28.160\nknow, about\n\n133\n00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:29.160\ngreat performance.\n\n134\n00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.240\nAnd do you have any ideas?\n\n135\n00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:34.560\nIs there anything you'd like to write about that?\n\n136\n00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:37.240\nAnd I said, well, yeah, actually there is.\n\n137\n00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:44.180\nI've been assembling sort of random information about it for years, mostly just\n\n138\n00:06:44.180 --> 00:06:45.240\nin my head.\n\n139\n00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.760\nBut I'd love a chance to write about it.\n\n140\n00:06:47.760 --> 00:06:50.840\nAnd so they said, okay, great, go for it.\n\n141\n00:06:50.840 --> 00:06:52.360\nSo I did.\n\n142\n00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:58.110\nAnd that's when I realized, which I hadn't realized previously, that there was\n\n143\n00:06:58.110 --> 00:06:58.720\na large\n\n144\n00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:06.000\nbody of research, scholarly research, on the topic of great performance.\n\n145\n00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:07.520\nAnd I hadn't known about it.\n\n146\n00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:13.520\nAnd I realized that hardly anybody else in the general audience knew about it.\n\n147\n00:07:13.520 --> 00:07:19.100\nAnd it had this clear message in it about where great performance really comes\n\n148\n00:07:19.100 --> 00:07:19.560\nfrom.\n\n149\n00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:23.040\nSo I wrote an article in Fortune about that.\n\n150\n00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:27.290\nAnd in all my years at Fortune, and I've been there a lot of years, I have\n\n151\n00:07:27.290 --> 00:07:28.040\nnever in my\n\n152\n00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:33.680\nlife had a response to an article like I had to that one.\n\n153\n00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:40.600\nI had readers tell me that they read that article aloud to their little kids.\n\n154\n00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.850\nWell you could write an awful lot of Fortune articles without anybody ever\n\n155\n00:07:43.850 --> 00:07:44.520\nreading them\n\n156\n00:07:44.520 --> 00:07:47.240\naloud to their little kids.\n\n157\n00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.160\nBut for this one they did.\n\n158\n00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:53.640\nAnd that's when I realized, okay, there's much more to be said here.\n\n159\n00:07:53.640 --> 00:07:55.560\nThere's an appetite for this.\n\n160\n00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.640\nAnd so I contacted a publisher I've known for a long time.\n\n161\n00:07:58.640 --> 00:08:01.520\nAnd he just immediately said yes, and off we went.\n\n162\n00:08:01.520 --> 00:08:05.380\nWell, I want to dig into that content as we go through this discussion with\n\n163\n00:08:05.380 --> 00:08:06.240\neach other.\n\n164\n00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.900\nYou know, back when I interviewed Rory McElroy, he said that he didn't like the\n\n165\n00:08:09.900 --> 00:08:10.360\nnotion of\n\n166\n00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.280\nbeing called a natural talent.\n\n167\n00:08:12.280 --> 00:08:16.400\nNow, here's a kid where they had videos of him swinging a golf club when he was\n\n168\n00:08:16.400 --> 00:08:16.800\nthree\n\n169\n00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:17.800\nyears old.\n\n170\n00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:21.200\nAnd he looked like he was destined to be a pro.\n\n171\n00:08:21.200 --> 00:08:24.860\nBut he said the reason he didn't like being called a natural golfer is that bel\n\n172\n00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:25.320\nies all\n\n173\n00:08:25.320 --> 00:08:29.560\nthe hard work that it takes to become great at what you do.\n\n174\n00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:34.080\nWhat's your view on a so-called child prodigy and natural talent?\n\n175\n00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:39.500\nThe premise of the book really is that great performance comes from a\n\n176\n00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:41.200\nparticular process\n\n177\n00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.440\nthat the researchers call deliberate practice.\n\n178\n00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:44.800\nAnd we'll get into that.\n\n179\n00:08:44.800 --> 00:08:49.700\nBut the gist of the research says further that natural talent, you know,\n\n180\n00:08:49.700 --> 00:08:50.960\nsomething you're\n\n181\n00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:56.500\nliterally born with, an ability to do something fairly specific like play golf\n\n182\n00:08:56.500 --> 00:08:57.440\nthat you're\n\n183\n00:08:57.440 --> 00:08:58.440\nborn with.\n\n184\n00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:05.360\nThe research says that either is way overrated or it may be it doesn't even\n\n185\n00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:06.360\nexist.\n\n186\n00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:13.350\nAnd what Rory said is a perfect example of what most of the world's great\n\n187\n00:09:13.350 --> 00:09:14.560\nperformers\n\n188\n00:09:14.560 --> 00:09:21.440\nare thinking when people say to them, \"Oh, wow, you have an incredible natural\n\n189\n00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:22.560\ntalent.\"\n\n190\n00:09:22.560 --> 00:09:27.110\nYou know, and people like him know that those folks are trying to be nice so\n\n191\n00:09:27.110 --> 00:09:27.600\nthey don't\n\n192\n00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:34.300\nsay anything, but inwardly what we've learned is a lot of great performers\n\n193\n00:09:34.300 --> 00:09:35.560\nresent it.\n\n194\n00:09:35.560 --> 00:09:40.710\nThey resent being told that they have a great natural talent for exactly the\n\n195\n00:09:40.710 --> 00:09:41.600\nreason Rory\n\n196\n00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:48.520\nsaid because that makes it sound like it was easy for them to get where they\n\n197\n00:09:48.520 --> 00:09:49.280\ngot.\n\n198\n00:09:49.280 --> 00:09:54.720\nAnd what he said to you, what they all know is that it wasn't easy.\n\n199\n00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:01.400\nThey had to work harder than most of us can ever imagine to get where they got.\n\n200\n00:10:01.400 --> 00:10:06.880\nAnd sometimes when I try to explain that to people, they're skeptical.\n\n201\n00:10:06.880 --> 00:10:11.390\nBut when somebody like Rory McElroy says it himself and he's one of the world's\n\n202\n00:10:11.390 --> 00:10:12.080\ngreatest,\n\n203\n00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.080\nyou realize there's something to it.\n\n204\n00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:15.400\nNow you've studied this.\n\n205\n00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:19.480\nSo what generally is the true source to top level talent?\n\n206\n00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.760\nAnd I know you talk about deliberate practices being one of those things.\n\n207\n00:10:23.760 --> 00:10:24.760\nAbsolutely.\n\n208\n00:10:24.760 --> 00:10:28.520\nIf you had to boil it down, that's really what it comes down to.\n\n209\n00:10:28.520 --> 00:10:32.980\nIt is deliberate practice, which is a very specifically defined thing, which I\n\n210\n00:10:32.980 --> 00:10:33.920\n'll describe,\n\n211\n00:10:33.920 --> 00:10:42.760\nis deliberate practice done typically for hours a day, every day for years.\n\n212\n00:10:42.760 --> 00:10:47.150\nAnd what the world's greatest performers have done is go through that and it's\n\n213\n00:10:47.150 --> 00:10:47.760\nhard.\n\n214\n00:10:47.760 --> 00:10:51.320\nIt's not easy, but they've gone through that typically for years.\n\n215\n00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:52.320\nSo what is it?\n\n216\n00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:57.310\nOne thing I learned when I did all the research for the book is that deliberate\n\n217\n00:10:57.310 --> 00:10:58.160\npractice is\n\n218\n00:10:58.160 --> 00:11:02.160\nnot what most of us think of when we think of practice.\n\n219\n00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:06.900\nI discovered, for example, that what I do out on the driving range at the golf\n\n220\n00:11:06.900 --> 00:11:07.440\ncourse\n\n221\n00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.280\nis a pathetic example of deliberate practice.\n\n222\n00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:13.120\nIt's not even close.\n\n223\n00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.480\nFortunately, although it's very specific, it's pretty simple to describe.\n\n224\n00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.760\nHere's what deliberate practice is.\n\n225\n00:11:18.760 --> 00:11:27.180\nIt is an activity that is designed, especially for you at your current stage in\n\n226\n00:11:27.180 --> 00:11:28.640\nthe development\n\n227\n00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:33.760\nof whatever it is you're doing, whether it's playing golf or playing the violin\n\n228\n00:11:33.760 --> 00:11:34.320\nor doing\n\n229\n00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:38.080\nsurgery or flying a jet aircraft or whatever it is.\n\n230\n00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:42.760\nIt's designed, especially for you, at your current state of development.\n\n231\n00:11:42.760 --> 00:11:49.800\nTwo, it is designed to push you just beyond your current abilities.\n\n232\n00:11:49.800 --> 00:11:53.380\nIt doesn't try to push you way beyond your current abilities because then you\n\n233\n00:11:53.380 --> 00:11:53.840\n're just\n\n234\n00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:54.840\nlost.\n\n235\n00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:56.000\nYou got no idea what to do.\n\n236\n00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.310\nAnd it doesn't allow you to operate within your current abilities because then\n\n237\n00:12:00.310 --> 00:12:00.920\nyou don't\n\n238\n00:12:00.920 --> 00:12:01.920\ngrow.\n\n239\n00:12:01.920 --> 00:12:07.880\nIt is constantly pushing you just past what you're able to do right now.\n\n240\n00:12:07.880 --> 00:12:12.980\nIt can be repeated at high volume, that turns out to be very important, and the\n\n241\n00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:14.240\nfourth thing,\n\n242\n00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:16.440\nyou're getting continual feedback.\n\n243\n00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.040\nYou can't get better if you don't know how you're doing.\n\n244\n00:12:20.040 --> 00:12:23.360\nThat's what deliberate practice boils down to.\n\n245\n00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:28.100\nAnd that's the activity repeated, as I said, typically for hours a day, for\n\n246\n00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:29.120\nyears on end,\n\n247\n00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:32.900\nthat all the great performers, regardless of their field, typically have in\n\n248\n00:12:32.900 --> 00:12:33.520\ncommon.\n\n249\n00:12:33.520 --> 00:12:36.710\nSo that's really a great way to maximize your practice, those three things that\n\n250\n00:12:36.710 --> 00:12:37.200\nyou just\n\n251\n00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:38.200\ntalked about.\n\n252\n00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:39.720\nYes, that's exactly right.\n\n253\n00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:45.850\nIf you want it to do you some good, that's the way to get maximum benefit from\n\n254\n00:12:45.850 --> 00:12:46.840\nyour practice\n\n255\n00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:47.840\ntime.\n\n256\n00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:50.840\nNow, is that really getting you into what you call the learning zone?\n\n257\n00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.400\nYes, that's a great yes, that's exactly it.\n\n258\n00:12:53.400 --> 00:12:57.550\nA good friend of both you and me, Professor Noltischi at the University of\n\n259\n00:12:57.550 --> 00:12:58.560\nMichigan, puts\n\n260\n00:12:58.560 --> 00:12:59.560\nthat very well.\n\n261\n00:12:59.560 --> 00:13:03.940\nHe says, \"Look, there's your comfort zone, just outside that there's your\n\n262\n00:13:03.940 --> 00:13:05.600\nlearning zone,\n\n263\n00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.280\nand just outside that there's your panic zone.\"\n\n264\n00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:14.710\nAnd the idea is to keep yourself in the learning zone, just outside your\n\n265\n00:13:14.710 --> 00:13:16.080\ncomfort zone.\n\n266\n00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:21.360\nNow, you talk about taking time, hours and hours and years and years to really\n\n267\n00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:22.440\nget better.\n\n268\n00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.840\nYou compare it to almost like a rose blooming.\n\n269\n00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:25.840\nYeah.\n\n270\n00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:26.840\nTalk about that.\n\n271\n00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:32.260\nIt takes time and it depends on the level of competition in your field of\n\n272\n00:13:32.260 --> 00:13:33.400\nendeavor.\n\n273\n00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:38.690\nSo look, if you want to be one of the world's great violinists or one of the\n\n274\n00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:39.880\nworld's great\n\n275\n00:13:39.880 --> 00:13:45.800\ngolfers or one of the world's great business leaders, these are fields in which\n\n276\n00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:46.440\nthere is\n\n277\n00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.920\nintense international competition.\n\n278\n00:13:49.920 --> 00:13:54.340\nAnd in any field with that characteristic, it's going to take typically\n\n279\n00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.360\nthousands of hours\n\n280\n00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:01.160\nof deliberate practice before you reach the highest levels.\n\n281\n00:14:01.160 --> 00:14:05.120\nIn another field in which there really isn't much intense international\n\n282\n00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:06.080\ncompetition, you\n\n283\n00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:10.400\nmay be able to become a big success with fewer hours.\n\n284\n00:14:10.400 --> 00:14:15.260\nBut in most of the fields that most of us are interested in, it's going to take\n\n285\n00:14:15.260 --> 00:14:15.600\na lot\n\n286\n00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:17.200\nof time.\n\n287\n00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:21.520\nAnd when you realize thousands of hours, the typical person who's working a 40-\n\n288\n00:14:21.520 --> 00:14:23.240\nhour week\n\n289\n00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:27.440\ndoes $2,000 of work in a year.\n\n290\n00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:28.440\nAnd that's work.\n\n291\n00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:29.440\nThat's not deliberate practice.\n\n292\n00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:31.280\nThat's just doing the job.\n\n293\n00:14:31.280 --> 00:14:33.720\nDeliberate practice is something separate.\n\n294\n00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:38.720\nSo think about $2,000, that's a year full time.\n\n295\n00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:44.620\nAnd that's not nearly enough for success at the highest levels of the most\n\n296\n00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:46.080\nintensely competitive\n\n297\n00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:47.240\nfields.\n\n298\n00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.810\nSo what you're really saying here is that a focused work ethic above and beyond\n\n299\n00:14:50.810 --> 00:14:51.520\nthe day-to-day\n\n300\n00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:55.720\njob description is what will really separate you from the pack.\n\n301\n00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.760\nThat's absolutely right.\n\n302\n00:14:57.760 --> 00:15:00.640\nAnd there are a couple of important points to make here.\n\n303\n00:15:00.640 --> 00:15:06.300\nOne, since that's an awful lot of hours, people sometimes get discouraged and\n\n304\n00:15:06.300 --> 00:15:06.960\nthey say,\n\n305\n00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:11.440\n\"Well, you know, I'm exhausted at the end of the day as it is.\n\n306\n00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:17.160\nHow can I really do thousands of hours of deliberate practice on top of that?\"\n\n307\n00:15:17.160 --> 00:15:23.050\nWell, there are ways for people who are working to incorporate deliberate\n\n308\n00:15:23.050 --> 00:15:24.640\npractice into their\n\n309\n00:15:24.640 --> 00:15:25.760\nwork.\n\n310\n00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:29.800\nBut there's another thing that needs to be pointed out too.\n\n311\n00:15:29.800 --> 00:15:33.640\nIt may take thousands of hours to become the world's greatest or among the\n\n312\n00:15:33.640 --> 00:15:35.400\nworld's greatest.\n\n313\n00:15:35.400 --> 00:15:39.480\nBut you don't have to follow the road all the way to its end.\n\n314\n00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:44.440\nJust doing this at all will make all of us better.\n\n315\n00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.040\nDozens of hours, hundreds of hours.\n\n316\n00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:48.240\nAll pay off.\n\n317\n00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:51.120\nWe will get better from doing it.\n\n318\n00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:58.630\nAnd that raises the question of, \"Do you really want to be the world's greatest\n\n319\n00:15:58.630 --> 00:15:58.760\n?\"\n\n320\n00:15:58.760 --> 00:16:03.460\nIt may be possible we know the road to getting there, but the price is very\n\n321\n00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:04.160\nhigh and not\n\n322\n00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:06.960\neverybody's going to want to do it, which is fine.\n\n323\n00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.900\nIs that really why it's so important for us to love what we do in order to\n\n324\n00:16:09.900 --> 00:16:10.560\nreally become\n\n325\n00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:11.840\nworld class?\n\n326\n00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.820\nBecause I always tell everybody, be an avid learner, because if you're an avid\n\n327\n00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:15.440\nlearner,\n\n328\n00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.720\nyou need to love what you do, so you want to learn more and you go to work\n\n329\n00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:19.400\nevery day and\n\n330\n00:16:19.400 --> 00:16:22.480\nsay, \"Hey, man, I'm going to get better and better.\"\n\n331\n00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:23.480\nRight.\n\n332\n00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:24.480\nThat's great advice, David.\n\n333\n00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:25.480\nThat is great advice.\n\n334\n00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.040\nI mean, think about what I've said about deliberate practice.\n\n335\n00:16:29.040 --> 00:16:32.680\nConstantly pushing you just beyond what you're able to do.\n\n336\n00:16:32.680 --> 00:16:33.920\nWell, what does that mean?\n\n337\n00:16:33.920 --> 00:16:39.600\nWhat it means is, by definition, you're going to be making mistakes.\n\n338\n00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:41.280\nYou're going to be having failures.\n\n339\n00:16:41.280 --> 00:16:45.920\nBecause if you're trying to do stuff that you can't quite do, at least\n\n340\n00:16:45.920 --> 00:16:46.920\ninitially, you're\n\n341\n00:16:46.920 --> 00:16:48.960\ngoing to make mistakes.\n\n342\n00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:55.480\nWell, making mistakes every day is not what most people consider fun.\n\n343\n00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:56.960\nWhy does anybody do it?\n\n344\n00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.400\nThis is actually a big question that the researchers have faced.\n\n345\n00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:01.920\nWhy does anybody do this?\n\n346\n00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:06.040\nWhy does anybody put themselves through this?\n\n347\n00:17:06.040 --> 00:17:11.120\nThe answer is, because they just have a passion for it.\n\n348\n00:17:11.120 --> 00:17:14.950\nThis is really deep, and the research, I don't think, has gotten to the bottom\n\n349\n00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:15.520\nof it.\n\n350\n00:17:15.520 --> 00:17:20.800\nBut to have a passion for it, something that makes you just want to do it.\n\n351\n00:17:20.800 --> 00:17:25.160\nYou can't even explain why you just want to do it.\n\n352\n00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.960\nThat's critical to keep you going through all of this.\n\n353\n00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.880\nYou know what I think you're talking about here is the mindset that you have to\n\n354\n00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:32.160\nhave\n\n355\n00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:33.160\nas a leader.\n\n356\n00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.730\nYou know, you talk about deliberate practice, but what have you learned about\n\n357\n00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:37.360\ndeveloping\n\n358\n00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:41.040\nthe right mindset for world-class performance?\n\n359\n00:17:41.040 --> 00:17:47.600\nA mindset is a crucial term here, because you've got to get into a mindset\n\n360\n00:17:47.600 --> 00:17:48.680\nwhere you realize\n\n361\n00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:53.800\nthat this is just part of your life, and you're always thinking this way.\n\n362\n00:17:53.800 --> 00:17:58.030\nI mean, look, sports and music are the fields where this is most obvious, right\n\n363\n00:17:58.030 --> 00:17:58.280\n?\n\n364\n00:17:58.280 --> 00:18:02.110\nWe talk a lot when we talk about deliberate practice, and a lot of the research\n\n365\n00:18:02.110 --> 00:18:02.400\nhas been\n\n366\n00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:07.700\ndone in fields of sports and music because that's where we typically spend huge\n\n367\n00:18:07.700 --> 00:18:08.360\namounts\n\n368\n00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:14.680\nof time practicing and a relatively smaller amount of time actually performing.\n\n369\n00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.810\nIn the world of business, you know, in the world of work that most of us are in\n\n370\n00:18:18.810 --> 00:18:19.280\n, it's\n\n371\n00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:20.280\nnot that way at all.\n\n372\n00:18:20.280 --> 00:18:25.190\nWe spend virtually all our time actually performing and very little time,\n\n373\n00:18:25.190 --> 00:18:26.120\ntypically,\n\n374\n00:18:26.120 --> 00:18:28.680\ndoing what you'd call practice.\n\n375\n00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:35.650\nAnd so what you have to do is find ways to practice within the work, and you\n\n376\n00:18:35.650 --> 00:18:37.080\ncan do that\n\n377\n00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:41.280\nif you have the right mindset exactly what you're talking about.\n\n378\n00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:45.790\nYou're thinking, even while you're working, okay, what skill am I working on\n\n379\n00:18:45.790 --> 00:18:46.680\nright now?\n\n380\n00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.930\nYou have an ability to step outside yourself and look at the situation, say,\n\n381\n00:18:49.930 --> 00:18:50.760\nwhat am I working\n\n382\n00:18:50.760 --> 00:18:51.760\non right now?\n\n383\n00:18:51.760 --> 00:18:55.150\nAnd how am I doing, you know, when I'm talking with someone, when I'm giving\n\n384\n00:18:55.150 --> 00:18:56.280\nsomeone a performance\n\n385\n00:18:56.280 --> 00:19:00.440\nevaluation, when I'm making a sales presentation?\n\n386\n00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:01.640\nWhat am I trying to do here?\n\n387\n00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:02.720\nAnd how am I doing?\n\n388\n00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.560\nAnd then you think afterwards, how did that go?\n\n389\n00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:09.280\nHow did I miss now that I think back?\n\n390\n00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:11.680\nHow could I have done it better?\n\n391\n00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:17.720\nIt's a little more work than most of us put in, but it really, really pays off.\n\n392\n00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:19.440\nThe key is having this mindset.\n\n393\n00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.200\nYou're always doing deliberate practice.\n\n394\n00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:26.100\nAnd Jeff, you write about constantly deepening your knowledge of your\n\n395\n00:19:26.100 --> 00:19:27.280\nprofession and your\n\n396\n00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:28.280\nbusiness.\n\n397\n00:19:28.280 --> 00:19:29.280\nYes.\n\n398\n00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:30.280\nYes.\n\n399\n00:19:30.280 --> 00:19:31.280\nAnd that's a great point.\n\n400\n00:19:31.280 --> 00:19:37.840\nIf the world's greatest or to be great, you have to have a lot of simple domain\n\n401\n00:19:37.840 --> 00:19:39.080\nknowledge.\n\n402\n00:19:39.080 --> 00:19:44.310\nAnd that may sound obvious, but it's important because there was a time when a\n\n403\n00:19:44.310 --> 00:19:45.200\nlot of, you\n\n404\n00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:49.540\nknow, supposed authorities thought the opposite was the truth, especially in\n\n405\n00:19:49.540 --> 00:19:50.320\nbusiness.\n\n406\n00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:54.800\nThere was a view for a long time that if a person was trained as a great\n\n407\n00:19:54.800 --> 00:19:55.920\nmanager, they\n\n408\n00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.800\nhad these managerial and leadership tools.\n\n409\n00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:06.720\nThey could take them into any job, into any field and apply them and succeed.\n\n410\n00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.880\nAnd eventually it became clear that that's not right.\n\n411\n00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.640\nYou need those things, but you also need knowledge of the domain.\n\n412\n00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:22.400\nYou really need to just know a lot about your field.\n\n413\n00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.120\nAnd that's something that we all have to do.\n\n414\n00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:28.880\nYou really got to put in the hours to learn all of that.\n\n415\n00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:34.080\nAnd by the way, one more point, it's another reason that says nobody is a\n\n416\n00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:35.120\nnatural born\n\n417\n00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:39.560\ngreat performer because nobody's born with any knowledge about anything after\n\n418\n00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:40.040\nall.\n\n419\n00:20:40.040 --> 00:20:41.280\nThat's what I was going to ask you.\n\n420\n00:20:41.280 --> 00:20:44.440\nAre you a natural born leader or are leaders made?\n\n421\n00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.560\nAnd I think your point is that leaders are made.\n\n422\n00:20:47.560 --> 00:20:48.560\nAbsolutely.\n\n423\n00:20:48.560 --> 00:20:49.560\nAbsolutely.\n\n424\n00:20:49.560 --> 00:20:50.960\nAnd that's great news.\n\n425\n00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:54.720\nPeople say, well, it's bad news because that means I'm not a natural, right?\n\n426\n00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:02.400\nPeople know, but it means that you can be a fantastic leader because leaders\n\n427\n00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:03.440\nare made.\n\n428\n00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.610\nBecause you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who\n\n429\n00:21:06.610 --> 00:21:07.320\nwants to learn\n\n430\n00:21:07.320 --> 00:21:09.160\nhow to lead well.\n\n431\n00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.700\nBut there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and\n\n432\n00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:14.520\ncharge you $500\n\n433\n00:21:14.520 --> 00:21:20.240\nor $1,000 or heck, even $20,000 to try and show you how to lead.\n\n434\n00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.240\nThat's just not right.\n\n435\n00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.500\nIf you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to\n\n436\n00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:26.200\nsomething that\n\n437\n00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:30.000\nwill truly help you and it shouldn't cost a fortune.\n\n438\n00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.480\nSo I want you to go to howleaderslead.com and start my leadership class.\n\n439\n00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:36.480\nIt's really and truly free.\n\n440\n00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.910\nAnd after you take this class, you're going to feel more confident in your role\n\n441\n00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:41.440\nand you'll\n\n442\n00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.800\nbe on your way to getting big things done with your team.\n\n443\n00:21:44.800 --> 00:21:46.800\nGo check it out at howleaderslead.com.\n\n444\n00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:59.150\nYou know, leaders do need good coaches and you know there's no question about\n\n445\n00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:00.560\nthat.\n\n446\n00:22:00.560 --> 00:22:03.200\nWhat in your experience really makes a world-class coach?\n\n447\n00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.390\nIt's often overlooked, especially in the world of business and becoming a\n\n448\n00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:08.000\nbusiness\n\n449\n00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:09.200\nleader.\n\n450\n00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:16.240\nBut there is a reason that the world's greatest golfers all have coaches.\n\n451\n00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:22.160\nAnd at the very top of their game, they still have teachers whom they go to.\n\n452\n00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:28.240\nThe skills of the coach or teacher are different from the skills of the leader.\n\n453\n00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.680\nWell, first of all, it's knowledge of how people progress in that field,\n\n454\n00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:34.360\nwhatever it\n\n455\n00:22:34.360 --> 00:22:35.360\nmay be.\n\n456\n00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:37.120\nLet's say it's business leadership.\n\n457\n00:22:37.120 --> 00:22:40.320\nIt's a knowledge of how people typically progress.\n\n458\n00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:47.670\nAnd then it's an ability to observe the student and figure out how that person\n\n459\n00:22:47.670 --> 00:22:49.240\nis performing.\n\n460\n00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:56.390\nAnd then to give that person good, honest, rigorous feedback on how they're\n\n461\n00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:57.360\ndoing.\n\n462\n00:22:57.360 --> 00:23:02.840\nRemember, the deliberate practice framework requires continuous feedback.\n\n463\n00:23:02.840 --> 00:23:07.600\nWell, that generally requires somebody else to observe us.\n\n464\n00:23:07.600 --> 00:23:10.840\nWe're not very good at judging ourselves typically, right?\n\n465\n00:23:10.840 --> 00:23:16.020\nWe need some other pair of eyes and pair of ears looking at us and watching us\n\n466\n00:23:16.020 --> 00:23:16.480\ndo what\n\n467\n00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:20.240\nwe do and then giving us the feedback on how we're doing.\n\n468\n00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:26.040\nAnd so the coach can do those things and knows how leaders progress.\n\n469\n00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:28.320\nIn other words, okay, now you're good at this.\n\n470\n00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:31.040\nWhat's the next thing you need to get good at?\n\n471\n00:23:31.040 --> 00:23:35.220\nIf there was one coach you could have people really study to learn on how to do\n\n472\n00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:35.400\nit, who\n\n473\n00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:36.880\nwould you refer them to?\n\n474\n00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:42.800\nI happen to be a big fan of someone who was also a great business leader.\n\n475\n00:23:42.800 --> 00:23:44.320\nAnd I'm thinking of Jack Welch.\n\n476\n00:23:44.320 --> 00:23:49.590\nThere are people who nowadays, for reasons I don't understand, even disparage\n\n477\n00:23:49.590 --> 00:23:50.400\nhim a little.\n\n478\n00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:51.400\nIt's nonsense.\n\n479\n00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.200\nHe was one of the all time greats.\n\n480\n00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:56.600\nAnd he was not only a great leader.\n\n481\n00:23:56.600 --> 00:23:59.000\nHe was a great coach.\n\n482\n00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:06.750\nHe had an ability to observe people and to give them feedback in a way that is\n\n483\n00:24:06.750 --> 00:24:06.800\nat a\n\n484\n00:24:06.800 --> 00:24:09.480\nabsolutely candid.\n\n485\n00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:15.440\nHe has an ability to tell people what they're doing well and what they need to\n\n486\n00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:16.360\nget better\n\n487\n00:24:16.360 --> 00:24:19.360\nat with complete honesty.\n\n488\n00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:24.140\nAnd he says things to people that most of us would have trouble saying to\n\n489\n00:24:24.140 --> 00:24:24.960\npeople.\n\n490\n00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:31.420\nBut he has an ability to say things to people that are tough or maybe unwelcome\n\n491\n00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:31.520\n.\n\n492\n00:24:31.520 --> 00:24:35.840\nBut he can do it in a way that shows he's not angry at you.\n\n493\n00:24:35.840 --> 00:24:38.000\nHe's not demeaning you.\n\n494\n00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.520\nYou know, he just is giving you the facts.\n\n495\n00:24:42.520 --> 00:24:46.920\nAnd that ability is rare in my experience.\n\n496\n00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.840\nLet me tell you, I've had the great benefit of getting some great coaching from\n\n497\n00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:50.480\nJack Welch\n\n498\n00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:51.480\nmyself.\n\n499\n00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.510\nAnd you know, one of the things that I appreciated about Jack and you, Jeff, is\n\n500\n00:24:55.510 --> 00:24:56.240\nthat you take\n\n501\n00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:00.880\nthe time to codify your learning so that you can give back to others.\n\n502\n00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.880\nDo you find a giving nature critical in being a coach?\n\n503\n00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:05.880\nYes.\n\n504\n00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:06.880\nYes, it is.\n\n505\n00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.370\nIt's like somebody who's good at anything else, kind of what we were talking\n\n506\n00:25:10.370 --> 00:25:10.880\nabout.\n\n507\n00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.440\nThey've got to like what they do.\n\n508\n00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:21.440\nAnd coaches have got to like coaching, which means imparting their wisdom.\n\n509\n00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:23.480\nAnd it is a different skill.\n\n510\n00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.160\nIt's a different skill from performing in itself.\n\n511\n00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.280\nLet me ask you this one.\n\n512\n00:25:28.280 --> 00:25:33.430\nThe people you've interviewed and studied, which person surprised you the most\n\n513\n00:25:33.430 --> 00:25:33.720\nafter you\n\n514\n00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:38.030\nmet him or her and you were so shocked that they reached this pinnacle of\n\n515\n00:25:38.030 --> 00:25:38.880\nsuccess.\n\n516\n00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:40.760\nWell, that's a really good question.\n\n517\n00:25:40.760 --> 00:25:45.730\nAnd it's a kind of a hard question because I've met so many of them who were\n\n518\n00:25:45.730 --> 00:25:46.880\nreally terrific.\n\n519\n00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:53.240\nHere's a little story that I think really exemplifies what you're talking about\n\n520\n00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:53.240\n.\n\n521\n00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:59.140\nI do a lot of moderating of panels at conferences and stuff like that, fortune\n\n522\n00:25:59.140 --> 00:26:00.320\nconferences and\n\n523\n00:26:00.320 --> 00:26:01.760\nother conferences.\n\n524\n00:26:01.760 --> 00:26:08.230\nA lot of on stage interviewing of people and probably the strangest one I ever\n\n525\n00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:09.840\nhad to moderate\n\n526\n00:26:09.840 --> 00:26:11.960\nwas a panel of two people.\n\n527\n00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:17.670\nThis was some years ago, but it was two people and a lot of folks I talked to\n\n528\n00:26:17.670 --> 00:26:18.320\nknow one or\n\n529\n00:26:18.320 --> 00:26:22.240\nthe other of these two people, but may not know both of them.\n\n530\n00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:24.400\nSo here are the two people.\n\n531\n00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:29.630\nOne was Russell Simmons, who is in the world of hip hop music, the great\n\n532\n00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:31.200\nentrepreneur,\n\n533\n00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:36.900\ntremendously successful founder of record label, fashion label, and he's very,\n\n534\n00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:37.280\nvery\n\n535\n00:26:37.280 --> 00:26:40.320\nsuccessful in the world of hip hop music.\n\n536\n00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:45.320\nOn stage with him, the other person I was supposed to interview together with\n\n537\n00:26:45.320 --> 00:26:45.680\nwas General\n\n538\n00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:55.330\nNorman Schwarzkopf, the US general who commanded American forces in the First\n\n539\n00:26:55.330 --> 00:26:56.720\nIraq War in\n\n540\n00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:59.200\n1991.\n\n541\n00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:06.380\nFirst our general and a hip hop mogul, they'd never met and I suspect, this is\n\n542\n00:27:06.380 --> 00:27:08.080\nonly a guess,\n\n543\n00:27:08.080 --> 00:27:13.560\nthat actually not only that, neither one of them knew who the other one was.\n\n544\n00:27:13.560 --> 00:27:15.560\nThey had no idea.\n\n545\n00:27:15.560 --> 00:27:22.060\nAnd yet by the end of the interview, they loved each other because what they\n\n546\n00:27:22.060 --> 00:27:23.000\nfound was\n\n547\n00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:28.640\nthat the principles of leadership they were talking about were the same.\n\n548\n00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:33.810\nThey were in the two most different worlds you could possibly imagine, I would\n\n549\n00:27:33.810 --> 00:27:34.480\nsay.\n\n550\n00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:40.250\nAnd yet they discovered that what they had to say about leadership was exactly\n\n551\n00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:41.160\nthe same.\n\n552\n00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.880\nThey were just endorsing one another by the end of this thing, big hug\n\n553\n00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:47.040\nafterwards.\n\n554\n00:27:47.040 --> 00:27:53.520\nIt was really something, but it shows you that there aren't any secrets here.\n\n555\n00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:54.520\nThere really aren't.\n\n556\n00:27:54.520 --> 00:27:57.840\nWell, that's a dramatic example that's probably changed the way you think a\n\n557\n00:27:57.840 --> 00:27:58.600\nlittle bit when\n\n558\n00:27:58.600 --> 00:28:00.700\nyou see different kind of leaders.\n\n559\n00:28:00.700 --> 00:28:02.160\nThat's exactly right.\n\n560\n00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:07.000\nBecause I've learned that leadership is everywhere and it has a lot in common\n\n561\n00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:07.920\nwith all of their\n\n562\n00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:10.120\nleadership no matter where it is.\n\n563\n00:28:10.120 --> 00:28:14.060\nYou know, Jeff, you've also written this tremendously insightful book about the\n\n564\n00:28:14.060 --> 00:28:14.920\nfuture, about how\n\n565\n00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.720\nhumans can win in this age of artificial intelligence.\n\n566\n00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.400\nIt's called humans are underrated.\n\n567\n00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:26.240\nWhat high achievers know that brilliant machines never will love that title.\n\n568\n00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:28.040\nIt's fantastic.\n\n569\n00:28:28.040 --> 00:28:29.520\nWhat's the premise behind this book?\n\n570\n00:28:29.520 --> 00:28:30.520\nYeah.\n\n571\n00:28:30.520 --> 00:28:38.920\nWell, the premise here is technology is becoming so good at things that people\n\n572\n00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:40.160\ndo that you\n\n573\n00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:45.920\nreally start to wonder how are we poor humans going to add value?\n\n574\n00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.480\nHow are we going to be economically valuable?\n\n575\n00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.920\nHow are we going to earn a living that will, you know, maintain our standard of\n\n576\n00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:53.440\nliving\n\n577\n00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:59.290\nfor ourselves and our kids as technology does more and more of this stuff, not\n\n578\n00:28:59.290 --> 00:29:00.240\njust faster\n\n579\n00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:05.560\nand cheaper, but also better than we ourselves do it.\n\n580\n00:29:05.560 --> 00:29:10.040\nAnd what got me going on the book was having some personal experiences where I\n\n581\n00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:10.600\nsaw this\n\n582\n00:29:10.600 --> 00:29:12.080\nfor myself.\n\n583\n00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:17.380\nYou know, machines software doing high value work, not just, you know, menial\n\n584\n00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:18.000\nwork and\n\n585\n00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:24.000\nnot just mechanical, I mean, high value difficult work better than humans.\n\n586\n00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.440\nSo I thought, well, okay, well, this has to be faced.\n\n587\n00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:29.080\nThis is going to be a big issue for decades to come.\n\n588\n00:29:29.080 --> 00:29:31.960\nWell, what's going to be the future of us poor humans?\n\n589\n00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:35.400\nYou know, most people think that we've always can innovate our way out of this.\n\n590\n00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:36.500\nWhat's your view?\n\n591\n00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:37.740\nAnd we always have.\n\n592\n00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:39.320\nThat's absolutely right.\n\n593\n00:29:39.320 --> 00:29:42.520\nWe need to remember the lesson of history here.\n\n594\n00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:47.720\nTechnology has been advancing in a big wave, you know, for 250 years now.\n\n595\n00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:54.000\nAnd over that time, advancing technology has always eliminated jobs.\n\n596\n00:29:54.000 --> 00:30:02.200\nBut at the same time, it has always enabled the creation of new jobs that on\n\n597\n00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:03.840\naverage are\n\n598\n00:30:03.840 --> 00:30:04.840\nhigher value.\n\n599\n00:30:04.840 --> 00:30:08.780\nThey pay better and there are more of them than the old jobs that were\n\n600\n00:30:08.780 --> 00:30:09.840\neliminated.\n\n601\n00:30:09.840 --> 00:30:15.460\nAnd so that's why the record of the past 250 years has been more employment and\n\n602\n00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:16.040\nrising\n\n603\n00:30:16.040 --> 00:30:18.880\nliving standards like nothing the world had ever seen before.\n\n604\n00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:20.320\nSo that's history.\n\n605\n00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:25.480\nThe big question now is, will the pattern of history continue?\n\n606\n00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:30.960\nWill the old pattern hold with today's technology advances?\n\n607\n00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:35.000\nAnd first of all, I do not claim to know the answer.\n\n608\n00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:40.580\nBut what's striking to me is that for the first time in history, it's a real\n\n609\n00:30:40.580 --> 00:30:42.200\nquestion.\n\n610\n00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:46.600\nThis question I just posed, you know, will the historical pattern hold?\n\n611\n00:30:46.600 --> 00:30:51.590\nI've asked this question now in the past few months to three different rooms\n\n612\n00:30:51.590 --> 00:30:53.160\nfull of CEOs.\n\n613\n00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:57.120\nYou know, big deal CEOs of famous companies and stuff.\n\n614\n00:30:57.120 --> 00:30:58.520\nAsk exactly the same question.\n\n615\n00:30:58.520 --> 00:31:00.320\nNow, here's your choice.\n\n616\n00:31:00.320 --> 00:31:06.060\nIs a, the historical pattern will hold as today's technology advances or be\n\n617\n00:31:06.060 --> 00:31:06.960\nthis, no, it won't\n\n618\n00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:08.800\nthis time it's different.\n\n619\n00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:11.400\nSo I just ask them for a show of hands.\n\n620\n00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:16.900\nAnd in each case, it's been about 50 50 until a few years ago, that would have\n\n621\n00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:18.520\nbeen unimaginable.\n\n622\n00:31:18.520 --> 00:31:22.120\nYou know, everybody knew what the historical pattern was.\n\n623\n00:31:22.120 --> 00:31:24.400\nNow we really don't know.\n\n624\n00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:26.720\nAnd that's unprecedented in human history.\n\n625\n00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:30.520\nWell, we'll see, are you an optimist or what's your view?\n\n626\n00:31:30.520 --> 00:31:35.520\nI am an optimist, but, and this is really what the book came down to.\n\n627\n00:31:35.520 --> 00:31:40.120\nThe question was, what skills will make us valuable?\n\n628\n00:31:40.120 --> 00:31:46.570\nAnd the answer that I came down to was the skills of deep human interaction,\n\n629\n00:31:46.570 --> 00:31:47.320\nmanaging\n\n630\n00:31:47.320 --> 00:31:55.560\nthe relationships that exist only between real life human beings.\n\n631\n00:31:55.560 --> 00:32:03.400\nThat's the part that is becoming increasingly valuable, economically valuable.\n\n632\n00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:09.400\nThat stuff that machines so far are just not capable of doing.\n\n633\n00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:13.520\nAnd my guess is won't be capable of doing for quite a while.\n\n634\n00:32:13.520 --> 00:32:20.240\nSo if we can get lots of people to master those skills, then I do think there's\n\n635\n00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:20.960\na great\n\n636\n00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.300\nfuture for us.\n\n637\n00:32:22.300 --> 00:32:25.120\nBut these are different from the skills that have always made us valuable in\n\n638\n00:32:25.120 --> 00:32:25.620\nthe past,\n\n639\n00:32:25.620 --> 00:32:28.420\nwhich were typically technical skills that you could learn in a classroom.\n\n640\n00:32:28.420 --> 00:32:32.520\nWell, I know that Peter Drucker always said that the knowledge worker was the\n\n641\n00:32:32.520 --> 00:32:33.420\nmost valuable\n\n642\n00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:35.060\nplayer.\n\n643\n00:32:35.060 --> 00:32:39.220\nAnd you seem to be suggesting that that's going to change the ability to work\n\n644\n00:32:39.220 --> 00:32:39.900\nwith human\n\n645\n00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:44.940\nbeings and do what computers can't is going to be the big, big driver.\n\n646\n00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:46.540\nYeah, that's exactly right.\n\n647\n00:32:46.540 --> 00:32:47.580\nAnd Peter Drucker was right.\n\n648\n00:32:47.580 --> 00:32:51.540\nI mean, he coined that term, I think 60 years ago or something.\n\n649\n00:32:51.540 --> 00:32:53.300\nHe was always ahead of his time.\n\n650\n00:32:53.300 --> 00:32:56.940\nAnd I think he was absolutely right when he said that.\n\n651\n00:32:56.940 --> 00:33:02.970\nBut we are now entering a fundamentally new era where software is doing the\n\n652\n00:33:02.970 --> 00:33:04.340\nwork of lawyers\n\n653\n00:33:04.340 --> 00:33:10.020\nand doctors, not just faster and cheaper, but better than they can do some of\n\n654\n00:33:10.020 --> 00:33:11.780\nthat work.\n\n655\n00:33:11.780 --> 00:33:17.620\nAnd the technology we have to remember gets roughly twice as good every two\n\n656\n00:33:17.620 --> 00:33:18.460\nyears.\n\n657\n00:33:18.460 --> 00:33:21.780\nAnd I know that I personally do not.\n\n658\n00:33:21.780 --> 00:33:23.980\nIt's okay.\n\n659\n00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:26.340\nHow does human survive and thrive?\n\n660\n00:33:26.340 --> 00:33:29.900\nWhat do you think is the most important human trait we've got to leverage?\n\n661\n00:33:29.900 --> 00:33:32.180\nIn a word, empathy.\n\n662\n00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:37.270\nAnd by empathy, I don't just mean feeling someone else's pain, although it is\n\n663\n00:33:37.270 --> 00:33:37.380\nthat it\n\n664\n00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:44.640\nis the ability to discern what somebody else is thinking or feeling, whatever\n\n665\n00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:45.700\nit may be,\n\n666\n00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:49.460\nand then to respond in some appropriate way.\n\n667\n00:33:49.460 --> 00:33:50.620\nThat's what it is.\n\n668\n00:33:50.620 --> 00:33:55.770\nAnd an ability to do that then leads to all kinds of other abilities that are\n\n669\n00:33:55.770 --> 00:33:57.060\nincreasingly,\n\n670\n00:33:57.060 --> 00:34:01.230\nyou know, not just what I think will be valuable, but what increasingly\n\n671\n00:34:01.230 --> 00:34:02.940\nemployers are demanding.\n\n672\n00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:07.930\nWell, you talk about the critical skill of solving problems creatively together\n\n673\n00:34:07.930 --> 00:34:08.060\n.\n\n674\n00:34:08.060 --> 00:34:10.820\nAnd together was the operative word.\n\n675\n00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:11.980\nTalk about that.\n\n676\n00:34:11.980 --> 00:34:15.420\nYou know, the research on this is so fascinating.\n\n677\n00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:20.400\nI mean, first of all, solving problems together is what we all need to be able\n\n678\n00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:21.060\nto do.\n\n679\n00:34:21.060 --> 00:34:25.820\nThe problems we face in our companies today are too hard for somebody sitting\n\n680\n00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:26.380\nalone in\n\n681\n00:34:26.380 --> 00:34:27.660\ntheir office to solve.\n\n682\n00:34:27.660 --> 00:34:30.060\nWe have to do it with teams.\n\n683\n00:34:30.060 --> 00:34:32.220\nAnd so how do teams do it?\n\n684\n00:34:32.220 --> 00:34:33.940\nWhat makes teams effective?\n\n685\n00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:39.580\nThe research is just remarkable because the answer is not what most of us think\n\n686\n00:34:39.580 --> 00:34:39.700\n.\n\n687\n00:34:39.700 --> 00:34:44.230\nIt has nothing to do with the cohesion or motivation or satisfaction of the\n\n688\n00:34:44.230 --> 00:34:44.860\nteam.\n\n689\n00:34:44.860 --> 00:34:50.940\nIt has absolutely nothing to do with the IQ of the smartest person on the team.\n\n690\n00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:55.540\nIt has only a little to do with the average IQ of the team.\n\n691\n00:34:55.540 --> 00:35:02.780\nIt has an awful lot to do with the social sensitivity of the team members,\n\n692\n00:35:02.780 --> 00:35:03.300\ntheir ability\n\n693\n00:35:03.300 --> 00:35:05.340\nto read one another.\n\n694\n00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:08.060\nIn other words, we're right back to empathy.\n\n695\n00:35:08.060 --> 00:35:13.920\nA team where people on average have very high social sensitivity is the most\n\n696\n00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:15.340\neffective teams\n\n697\n00:35:15.340 --> 00:35:21.780\nbecause that team will get a lot of ideas out of everybody, out onto the table.\n\n698\n00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:26.590\nAnd it will be very efficient and effective at coming to consensus about what\n\n699\n00:35:26.590 --> 00:35:27.180\nthe good\n\n700\n00:35:27.180 --> 00:35:30.660\nideas were and then what the not so good ideas were.\n\n701\n00:35:30.660 --> 00:35:36.580\nAnd so this critical component of empathy turns out to be the key to great team\n\n702\n00:35:36.580 --> 00:35:37.900\nperformance,\n\n703\n00:35:37.900 --> 00:35:39.420\nproblem solving together.\n\n704\n00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:42.490\nYou know, it's interesting and it really makes a lot of common sense because I\n\n705\n00:35:42.490 --> 00:35:43.260\n've seen it\n\n706\n00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:44.620\non teams.\n\n707\n00:35:44.620 --> 00:35:48.070\nBut the other thing you talk about is the power of a really great team is that\n\n708\n00:35:48.070 --> 00:35:48.420\nno one\n\n709\n00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:49.420\ndominates.\n\n710\n00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:51.500\nYep, that turns out to be key.\n\n711\n00:35:51.500 --> 00:35:57.020\nIf anybody takes over, you know, if any individual dominates the team, then you\n\n712\n00:35:57.020 --> 00:35:58.220\n've killed the\n\n713\n00:35:58.220 --> 00:36:00.060\ncreativity and the problem solving.\n\n714\n00:36:00.060 --> 00:36:02.140\nIt's just not going to happen.\n\n715\n00:36:02.140 --> 00:36:07.170\nWe've all be heaven knows we have all been involved with teams that had\n\n716\n00:36:07.170 --> 00:36:08.020\nsomebody like\n\n717\n00:36:08.020 --> 00:36:09.020\nthat.\n\n718\n00:36:09.020 --> 00:36:12.870\nAnd typically it's the boss, although sometimes it's just someone who is\n\n719\n00:36:12.870 --> 00:36:14.300\nparticularly, you\n\n720\n00:36:14.300 --> 00:36:17.820\nknow, overbearing and it shuts down the team.\n\n721\n00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:18.860\nAnd so you're right.\n\n722\n00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:24.620\nNo one dominates when a team is effective.\n\n723\n00:36:24.620 --> 00:36:28.250\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Jeff Colvin in just a\n\n724\n00:36:28.250 --> 00:36:28.900\nmoment.\n\n725\n00:36:28.900 --> 00:36:33.860\nYou know, when you talk about athletes who consistently perform at the highest\n\n726\n00:36:33.860 --> 00:36:33.900\nlevel,\n\n727\n00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:38.740\nthe name Tom Brady might just come to mind with good reason.\n\n728\n00:36:38.740 --> 00:36:43.200\nWhen I had a chance to sit down with the goat, he absolutely backed up the\n\n729\n00:36:43.200 --> 00:36:44.580\nideas Jeff is talking\n\n730\n00:36:44.580 --> 00:36:46.180\nabout today.\n\n731\n00:36:46.180 --> 00:36:51.170\nTo compete at the highest level, Thomas had to put in the hard work, deliberate\n\n732\n00:36:51.170 --> 00:36:51.940\npractice,\n\n733\n00:36:51.940 --> 00:36:56.220\nand a lot of intentional communication with his teammates.\n\n734\n00:36:56.220 --> 00:37:02.760\nCCC, clear current communication, you know, really being clear, not, you know,\n\n735\n00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:03.220\nman, I'm\n\n736\n00:37:03.220 --> 00:37:08.160\ngoing to say something and see if they can figure it out, or I'm going to try\n\n737\n00:37:08.160 --> 00:37:08.740\nto dance\n\n738\n00:37:08.740 --> 00:37:12.330\naround the topic and then current, you know, what's happening in the moment,\n\n739\n00:37:12.330 --> 00:37:13.140\nnot, hey,\n\n740\n00:37:13.140 --> 00:37:15.660\nthis thing happened two months ago and it's really bothering me.\n\n741\n00:37:15.660 --> 00:37:19.620\nIt's no, hey, this is the situation we're currently dealing with.\n\n742\n00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:23.420\nAnd you got to communicate and so many people don't want to communicate.\n\n743\n00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:27.600\nAnd I think CCC is really important on a personal level, but it's certainly\n\n744\n00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:28.260\nreally important\n\n745\n00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:30.900\nin a professional environment as well.\n\n746\n00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:35.640\nTake a deeper dive into Tom Brady's elite habits and mindset when you listen to\n\n747\n00:37:35.640 --> 00:37:36.140\nepisode\n\n748\n00:37:36.140 --> 00:37:45.340\n53 here on How Leaders Lead.\n\n749\n00:37:45.340 --> 00:37:49.860\nAre companies doing a good job of training people on how not to dominate on a\n\n750\n00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:50.460\nteam?\n\n751\n00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:52.180\nWho's doing this well?\n\n752\n00:37:52.180 --> 00:37:55.900\nThis companies and organizations are just getting into it as a matter of fact.\n\n753\n00:37:55.900 --> 00:38:01.040\nThey are just coming to understand what makes teams really effective and coming\n\n754\n00:38:01.040 --> 00:38:02.340\nto understand\n\n755\n00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:04.300\nthat these skills can be taught.\n\n756\n00:38:04.300 --> 00:38:06.980\nAnd where I see it being done is pretty interesting.\n\n757\n00:38:06.980 --> 00:38:12.360\nIt is being done, for example, in a lot of healthcare institutions where, you\n\n758\n00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:12.900\nknow, they\n\n759\n00:38:12.900 --> 00:38:16.520\nhave to have teams solve, you know, really important problems, sometimes life\n\n760\n00:38:16.520 --> 00:38:17.020\nand death\n\n761\n00:38:17.020 --> 00:38:21.520\nproblems, sometimes more mundane, but they're learning how to train people in\n\n762\n00:38:21.520 --> 00:38:22.140\nthese skills\n\n763\n00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:26.330\nand, by the way, one example I happen to be familiar with is what's being done\n\n764\n00:38:26.330 --> 00:38:26.620\nat the\n\n765\n00:38:26.620 --> 00:38:32.050\nCleveland Clinic where they have really developed a whole program for teaching\n\n766\n00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:33.340\nthese skills\n\n767\n00:38:33.340 --> 00:38:38.660\nof relationships that are the foundation of good team performance.\n\n768\n00:38:38.660 --> 00:38:43.620\nAnother one that really surprises people is the U.S. military.\n\n769\n00:38:43.620 --> 00:38:50.020\nI don't know of any institution that understands the value of these skills of\n\n770\n00:38:50.020 --> 00:38:52.100\ndeep human interaction.\n\n771\n00:38:52.100 --> 00:38:57.780\nAnd that trains these skills better than the U.S. military.\n\n772\n00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:02.380\nAnd that surprises people, but it doesn't surprise anybody who's been involved\n\n773\n00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:02.820\nwith the\n\n774\n00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:05.820\nmilitary over the past 15 years or so.\n\n775\n00:39:05.820 --> 00:39:11.780\nThey have taken this on very heavily and they're doing a great job of it.\n\n776\n00:39:11.780 --> 00:39:12.780\nThat's great.\n\n777\n00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:15.490\nI always like to find out where those best practices are and go to school on\n\n778\n00:39:15.490 --> 00:39:15.860\nthem.\n\n779\n00:39:15.860 --> 00:39:16.860\nYeah.\n\n780\n00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:19.980\nAnd there's a place where most people wouldn't think to look, but they should.\n\n781\n00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:23.900\nYou know, you also talk about the great leaders, the world class performers.\n\n782\n00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:26.100\nThey're really excellent storytellers.\n\n783\n00:39:26.100 --> 00:39:27.380\nWhat do you mean by that?\n\n784\n00:39:27.380 --> 00:39:31.100\nIn a way, this is something that I think we all know, but most of our\n\n785\n00:39:31.100 --> 00:39:32.380\norganizations don't\n\n786\n00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:34.820\nreally value storytelling.\n\n787\n00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:37.500\nThey value charts and graphs.\n\n788\n00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:38.660\nAnd that's okay.\n\n789\n00:39:38.660 --> 00:39:44.010\nYou know, we're going to have to make our business decisions based on data and\n\n790\n00:39:44.010 --> 00:39:45.100\ngood analysis\n\n791\n00:39:45.100 --> 00:39:46.100\nof data.\n\n792\n00:39:46.100 --> 00:39:47.580\nThat's never going to change.\n\n793\n00:39:47.580 --> 00:39:53.360\nBut analysis of data is exactly what technology is doing better and better\n\n794\n00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:54.460\nevery day.\n\n795\n00:39:54.460 --> 00:39:57.820\nIf we try to distinguish ourselves by doing that, we're going to lose because\n\n796\n00:39:57.820 --> 00:39:58.540\nthe computers\n\n797\n00:39:58.540 --> 00:40:01.020\ndo it better and better every day.\n\n798\n00:40:01.020 --> 00:40:06.260\nAt the same time, we all know from personal experience.\n\n799\n00:40:06.260 --> 00:40:12.200\nIf you want to change people's minds, if you want to have people remember\n\n800\n00:40:12.200 --> 00:40:13.340\nsomething,\n\n801\n00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:19.380\nand if you want to inspire people to action, don't show them charts and graphs.\n\n802\n00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:22.140\nTell them a story.\n\n803\n00:40:22.140 --> 00:40:23.340\nThat's what does it.\n\n804\n00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:26.780\nAnd that turns out to be an incredibly valuable skill.\n\n805\n00:40:26.780 --> 00:40:27.780\nAbsolutely.\n\n806\n00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:29.940\nAnd there's no computer that can do that.\n\n807\n00:40:29.940 --> 00:40:30.940\nNot so far.\n\n808\n00:40:30.940 --> 00:40:33.980\nThey're working on it actually, but so far, no.\n\n809\n00:40:33.980 --> 00:40:37.710\nNow, you also talk about in this new world that we're moving into now is that\n\n810\n00:40:37.710 --> 00:40:38.260\nwomen hold\n\n811\n00:40:38.260 --> 00:40:40.220\nstrong advantages over men.\n\n812\n00:40:40.220 --> 00:40:41.220\nYeah.\n\n813\n00:40:41.220 --> 00:40:42.220\nWhy do you say that?\n\n814\n00:40:42.220 --> 00:40:46.380\nThe reason I say that is, let me put it this way.\n\n815\n00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:50.590\nHere we've been talking for the last several minutes about the skills of deep\n\n816\n00:40:50.590 --> 00:40:51.740\nhuman interaction,\n\n817\n00:40:51.740 --> 00:40:57.180\nempathy, discerning what someone else is thinking and feeling and so forth.\n\n818\n00:40:57.180 --> 00:40:59.100\nOkay, forget about research.\n\n819\n00:40:59.100 --> 00:41:03.220\nI'll tell you about that in a second, but forget about all the research.\n\n820\n00:41:03.220 --> 00:41:09.940\nJust ask yourself, from your own life experience, who on average do you think\n\n821\n00:41:09.940 --> 00:41:11.060\nis better at\n\n822\n00:41:11.060 --> 00:41:12.060\nthose things?\n\n823\n00:41:12.060 --> 00:41:14.380\nMen or women, right?\n\n824\n00:41:14.380 --> 00:41:16.180\nThis is not a hard question.\n\n825\n00:41:16.180 --> 00:41:18.020\nWe all know the answer.\n\n826\n00:41:18.020 --> 00:41:20.700\nAnd in fact, the research supports it.\n\n827\n00:41:20.700 --> 00:41:21.700\nThere's a lot of research.\n\n828\n00:41:21.700 --> 00:41:24.220\nI just don't think we really need the research.\n\n829\n00:41:24.220 --> 00:41:30.020\nWomen on average are better at these skills than men are.\n\n830\n00:41:30.020 --> 00:41:33.940\nAnd there's a lot of speculation about why that should be so.\n\n831\n00:41:33.940 --> 00:41:38.180\nAnd to say on average, doesn't mean that every woman is better than every man.\n\n832\n00:41:38.180 --> 00:41:39.540\nThat's not correct.\n\n833\n00:41:39.540 --> 00:41:41.940\nAnd furthermore, we can all get better.\n\n834\n00:41:41.940 --> 00:41:46.370\nBut if we are entering the era when skills of deep human interaction are going\n\n835\n00:41:46.370 --> 00:41:46.700\nto be\n\n836\n00:41:46.700 --> 00:41:53.450\nreally the way value is created, then I do think that women go in with an\n\n837\n00:41:53.450 --> 00:41:54.540\nadvantage\n\n838\n00:41:54.540 --> 00:41:55.840\nover men.\n\n839\n00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.440\nYou know, if you look at millennials, their turnover rate is three times higher\n\n840\n00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:00.340\nthan previous\n\n841\n00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:01.340\ngenerations.\n\n842\n00:42:01.340 --> 00:42:02.660\nWhy do you think that is?\n\n843\n00:42:02.660 --> 00:42:10.280\nA number of reasons, I do think that they have a different set of expectations\n\n844\n00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:11.460\nof work.\n\n845\n00:42:11.460 --> 00:42:16.910\nYou know, they saw their parents who maybe wished for job security and turned\n\n846\n00:42:16.910 --> 00:42:17.500\nout not\n\n847\n00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:19.300\nto have it.\n\n848\n00:42:19.300 --> 00:42:25.300\nAnd they just can't imagine staying in one place for their whole careers.\n\n849\n00:42:25.300 --> 00:42:26.980\nSome of them will do so.\n\n850\n00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:31.740\nBut it's just not what they think of as the basic paradigm.\n\n851\n00:42:31.740 --> 00:42:35.720\nThere is another issue here though, that a lot of people worry about when they\n\n852\n00:42:35.720 --> 00:42:36.060\nthink\n\n853\n00:42:36.060 --> 00:42:38.380\nof the next generation in their companies.\n\n854\n00:42:38.380 --> 00:42:42.860\nAnd that is, do millennials have these skills of deep human interaction because\n\n855\n00:42:42.860 --> 00:42:43.500\nthey spend\n\n856\n00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:51.060\nso much of their time interacting digitally rather than in person face to face?\n\n857\n00:42:51.060 --> 00:42:55.870\nAnd I've got to tell you, the research suggests that maybe that is a problem,\n\n858\n00:42:55.870 --> 00:42:56.500\nthat all of\n\n859\n00:42:56.500 --> 00:43:02.010\nthat time spent communicating with their thumbs rather than by actually talking\n\n860\n00:43:02.010 --> 00:43:03.820\nto somebody.\n\n861\n00:43:03.820 --> 00:43:10.400\nIt does diminish empathy and it can be brought back, but it does diminish\n\n862\n00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:11.700\nempathy and it\n\n863\n00:43:11.700 --> 00:43:12.700\nis a concern.\n\n864\n00:43:12.700 --> 00:43:15.940\nDo you have any recommendations for people who work remotely?\n\n865\n00:43:15.940 --> 00:43:18.380\nBecause I think that makes it even more difficult.\n\n866\n00:43:18.380 --> 00:43:19.380\nIt does.\n\n867\n00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:20.380\nIt does.\n\n868\n00:43:20.380 --> 00:43:24.870\nAnd the recommendations for those people are first, do try to get together\n\n869\n00:43:24.870 --> 00:43:25.980\nphysically,\n\n870\n00:43:25.980 --> 00:43:28.660\noccasionally with your teammates.\n\n871\n00:43:28.660 --> 00:43:33.650\nJust an ability to do that every once in a while really adds a lot of richness\n\n872\n00:43:33.650 --> 00:43:34.380\nand value\n\n873\n00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:37.020\nto the interactions you have remotely.\n\n874\n00:43:37.020 --> 00:43:42.580\nAnd second, even if you can't do that very much, still try to develop these\n\n875\n00:43:42.580 --> 00:43:43.260\nskills of\n\n876\n00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:47.050\ndeep human interaction because the research shows that the people who have\n\n877\n00:43:47.050 --> 00:43:47.860\nthose skills,\n\n878\n00:43:47.860 --> 00:43:51.610\nwhich are mostly in person face to face skills, the people who have those\n\n879\n00:43:51.610 --> 00:43:52.540\nskills also are\n\n880\n00:43:52.540 --> 00:43:55.420\nmore effective operating remotely.\n\n881\n00:43:55.420 --> 00:43:59.220\nIt really comes through even when you're not in person face to face.\n\n882\n00:43:59.220 --> 00:44:02.990\nYeah, if I just got a few more questions I want to talk to you about, you say\n\n883\n00:44:02.990 --> 00:44:03.700\nthat building\n\n884\n00:44:03.700 --> 00:44:08.620\nhuman capital is one of the most important aspects of any kind of business.\n\n885\n00:44:08.620 --> 00:44:10.300\nWhat do you mean by that?\n\n886\n00:44:10.300 --> 00:44:13.460\nAnd as a leader, what should you do to make that happen?\n\n887\n00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:15.420\nIt is absolutely critical.\n\n888\n00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:18.860\nAnd look, David, you know this, you knew this a long time ago.\n\n889\n00:44:18.860 --> 00:44:22.460\nThe human capital is the most valuable capital in the business.\n\n890\n00:44:22.460 --> 00:44:26.500\nAnd a lot of employers don't do very much to really improve it.\n\n891\n00:44:26.500 --> 00:44:31.020\nAnd by that it means helping people develop the skills that they're going to\n\n892\n00:44:31.020 --> 00:44:31.500\nneed.\n\n893\n00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:34.980\nIt is possible for every company to invest more in that.\n\n894\n00:44:34.980 --> 00:44:36.420\nAnd there are all kinds of ways to do it.\n\n895\n00:44:36.420 --> 00:44:39.420\nYou can mix people up into different assignments.\n\n896\n00:44:39.420 --> 00:44:42.260\nYou can give them action learning projects.\n\n897\n00:44:42.260 --> 00:44:45.690\nYou can give them some classroom, although that's not the most effective way to\n\n898\n00:44:45.690 --> 00:44:46.580\ndo it.\n\n899\n00:44:46.580 --> 00:44:47.740\nBut it's an investment.\n\n900\n00:44:47.740 --> 00:44:50.620\nAnd I guess what I would say to managers or to people who are leading companies\n\n901\n00:44:50.620 --> 00:44:50.860\nnow\n\n902\n00:44:50.860 --> 00:44:55.300\nis think of it as an investment, not as a cost.\n\n903\n00:44:55.300 --> 00:44:57.660\nIt will come back to benefit you.\n\n904\n00:44:57.660 --> 00:45:00.660\nYou know, just listening to you, if I was running a business right now, I got\n\n905\n00:45:00.660 --> 00:45:00.980\nto tell\n\n906\n00:45:00.980 --> 00:45:04.750\nyou, I couldn't wait to get back to my office, talk to the people and say, hey,\n\n907\n00:45:04.750 --> 00:45:05.100\nwe're going\n\n908\n00:45:05.100 --> 00:45:07.940\nto start training people on social connectivity skills.\n\n909\n00:45:07.940 --> 00:45:10.620\nWe're going to teach people how not to dominate meetings.\n\n910\n00:45:10.620 --> 00:45:13.020\nWe're going to teach people how to be on teams.\n\n911\n00:45:13.020 --> 00:45:16.220\nAnd I think this is a huge fertile area for the business world.\n\n912\n00:45:16.220 --> 00:45:17.380\nI totally agree.\n\n913\n00:45:17.380 --> 00:45:19.020\nIt is a huge opportunity.\n\n914\n00:45:19.020 --> 00:45:22.220\nJeff, you're obviously really articulate.\n\n915\n00:45:22.220 --> 00:45:24.460\nYou do a lot of public speaking.\n\n916\n00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:27.420\nWas that something you could always do?\n\n917\n00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:31.420\nOr did it take some deliberate practice to really pull this off?\n\n918\n00:45:31.420 --> 00:45:34.060\nNo, it was not natural.\n\n919\n00:45:34.060 --> 00:45:35.740\nThat'd be your answer.\n\n920\n00:45:35.740 --> 00:45:37.980\nWell, I had to give that answer, of course.\n\n921\n00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:40.500\nBut in fact, it really is correct.\n\n922\n00:45:40.500 --> 00:45:41.500\nI love it.\n\n923\n00:45:41.500 --> 00:45:42.740\nI love doing that now.\n\n924\n00:45:42.740 --> 00:45:44.540\nI do a lot of speaking.\n\n925\n00:45:44.540 --> 00:45:48.980\nAnd unlike most people who hate it, I love it.\n\n926\n00:45:48.980 --> 00:45:51.940\nBut no, I wasn't always that way at all.\n\n927\n00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:56.340\nBut I had some great coaches and teachers along the way.\n\n928\n00:45:56.340 --> 00:46:00.460\nIn high school, when I was in high school, it was in Illinois.\n\n929\n00:46:00.460 --> 00:46:06.240\nIt's a state that still has a well-developed system of competition in speaking\n\n930\n00:46:06.240 --> 00:46:07.060\nevents,\n\n931\n00:46:07.060 --> 00:46:09.940\npublic speaking events statewide.\n\n932\n00:46:09.940 --> 00:46:11.540\nAnd our school competed.\n\n933\n00:46:11.540 --> 00:46:15.020\nAnd I had a fantastic teacher who coached us.\n\n934\n00:46:15.020 --> 00:46:18.380\nAnd I competed all over the state, along with other kids.\n\n935\n00:46:18.380 --> 00:46:20.060\nAnd that was really important.\n\n936\n00:46:20.060 --> 00:46:22.940\nThat turns out to have been important for the whole rest of my life.\n\n937\n00:46:22.940 --> 00:46:26.390\nYou know, Jeff, I love this quote that you have where you say, \"Developing\n\n938\n00:46:26.390 --> 00:46:27.180\nleaders isn't\n\n939\n00:46:27.180 --> 00:46:28.180\na program.\n\n940\n00:46:28.180 --> 00:46:29.180\nIt's a way of living.\"\n\n941\n00:46:29.180 --> 00:46:30.180\nYes.\n\n942\n00:46:30.180 --> 00:46:33.860\nAnd you know, you're so passionate about leaders, people interaction, just what\n\n943\n00:46:33.860 --> 00:46:34.780\n's going on in\n\n944\n00:46:34.780 --> 00:46:35.780\nthe world.\n\n945\n00:46:35.780 --> 00:46:38.540\nAnd I want to thank you for making it your living because you're really making\n\n946\n00:46:38.540 --> 00:46:38.820\na big\n\n947\n00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:40.540\ntime difference in the world.\n\n948\n00:46:40.540 --> 00:46:43.660\nAnd I really appreciate you sharing that wisdom today.\n\n949\n00:46:43.660 --> 00:46:45.860\nI really thank you for saying that.\n\n950\n00:46:45.860 --> 00:46:49.750\nAnd honestly, David, I appreciate it because coming from you, it means an awful\n\n951\n00:46:49.750 --> 00:46:50.180\nlot.\n\n952\n00:46:50.180 --> 00:46:54.020\nI don't know anybody in business who has done more to develop leaders than you\n\n953\n00:46:54.020 --> 00:46:54.620\nhave.\n\n954\n00:46:54.620 --> 00:46:58.700\nAnd you're still doing it, which I am delighted to see.\n\n955\n00:46:58.700 --> 00:47:00.740\nSo congratulations on all you're doing.\n\n956\n00:47:00.740 --> 00:47:01.740\nAnd thank you.\n\n957\n00:47:01.740 --> 00:47:02.740\n[END]\n\n958\n00:47:02.740 --> 00:47:14.840\nI'll always be so grateful for the article Jeff wrote profiling our recognition\n\n959\n00:47:14.840 --> 00:47:16.180\nculture\n\n960\n00:47:16.180 --> 00:47:17.980\nat Young Brands.\n\n961\n00:47:17.980 --> 00:47:22.030\nIt really helped get the word out that recognition is a key part of building a\n\n962\n00:47:22.030 --> 00:47:23.060\nhigh-performing\n\n963\n00:47:23.060 --> 00:47:24.780\nteam.\n\n964\n00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:29.050\nIn that article and in everything he does, Jeff is passionate about building\n\n965\n00:47:29.050 --> 00:47:29.780\nand sharing\n\n966\n00:47:29.780 --> 00:47:31.260\nknow-how.\n\n967\n00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:35.380\nHe believes deeply in the wonderful potential of people.\n\n968\n00:47:35.380 --> 00:47:40.510\nYou know, when we really focus on skills of deep human interaction, when we\n\n969\n00:47:40.510 --> 00:47:41.140\nhave the\n\n970\n00:47:41.140 --> 00:47:47.360\nmindset of deliberate practice, when we focus on talent and even more on effort\n\n971\n00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:48.420\n, we really\n\n972\n00:47:48.420 --> 00:47:53.020\ncan perform at our very best and help others do the same.\n\n973\n00:47:53.020 --> 00:47:58.900\nThis week, why not try out this concept of deliberate practice for yourself?\n\n974\n00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:03.260\nWhatever the qualities that Jeff mentions, it's got to push you just outside\n\n975\n00:48:03.260 --> 00:48:04.060\nyour current\n\n976\n00:48:04.060 --> 00:48:05.060\nabilities.\n\n977\n00:48:05.060 --> 00:48:09.670\nIt's got to be repeatable and you've got to find a way to get feedback on what\n\n978\n00:48:09.670 --> 00:48:10.220\nyou're\n\n979\n00:48:10.220 --> 00:48:11.220\ndoing.\n\n980\n00:48:11.220 --> 00:48:15.830\nApply it as you prepare for a presentation or find a way to bring deliberate\n\n981\n00:48:15.830 --> 00:48:16.500\npractice\n\n982\n00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:21.460\nto a common skill you use at work, like writing or data analysis.\n\n983\n00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:24.740\nBut whatever you do, know this.\n\n984\n00:48:24.740 --> 00:48:29.870\nWhen you get into that mindset where you're always asking how to get better,\n\n985\n00:48:29.870 --> 00:48:31.020\nguess what?\n\n986\n00:48:31.020 --> 00:48:34.020\nYou absolutely will get better.\n\n987\n00:48:34.020 --> 00:48:36.460\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n988\n00:48:36.460 --> 00:48:41.980\nWhat we learned today is the great leaders use deliberate practice to improve.\n\n989\n00:48:41.980 --> 00:48:46.260\nComing up next on How Leaders Lead, I'm talking with Mike McCoy.\n\n990\n00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:50.570\nHe's captaining the United States Walker Cup team, which will be teeing off\n\n991\n00:48:50.570 --> 00:48:51.220\nnext week\n\n992\n00:48:51.220 --> 00:48:55.060\nat the legendary old course at St. Andrews.\n\n993\n00:48:55.060 --> 00:49:00.810\nThe USDA, they demand the ability to sustain yourself over an entire week under\n\n994\n00:49:00.810 --> 00:49:01.620\nvery trying\n\n995\n00:49:01.620 --> 00:49:03.620\nconditions.\n\n996\n00:49:03.620 --> 00:49:07.350\nA lot of guys, when they show up and see the grass is a little longer and the\n\n997\n00:49:07.350 --> 00:49:07.940\ngreens are\n\n998\n00:49:07.940 --> 00:49:13.660\na little firmer and faster, you've got half the field beat already.\n\n999\n00:49:13.660 --> 00:49:15.980\nI think that's kind of true in business.\n\n1000\n00:49:15.980 --> 00:49:20.250\nSome people, when they get in there and they see what a mess that clients got,\n\n1001\n00:49:20.250 --> 00:49:20.540\nthey just\n\n1002\n00:49:20.540 --> 00:49:21.980\nsort of throw their hands up.\n\n1003\n00:49:21.980 --> 00:49:26.860\nAnd that's kind of where I like to dig in and solve those big problems.\n\n1004\n00:49:26.860 --> 00:49:31.460\nSo be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation.\n\n1005\n00:49:31.460 --> 00:49:36.470\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every\n\n1006\n00:49:36.470 --> 00:49:37.300\nThursday,\n\n1007\n00:49:37.300 --> 00:49:41.320\nyou get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the\n\n1008\n00:49:41.320 --> 00:49:41.980\nworld.\n\n1009\n00:49:41.980 --> 00:49:46.200\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1010\n00:49:46.200 --> 00:49:47.060\napply to your\n\n1011\n00:49:47.060 --> 00:49:50.220\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1012\n00:49:50.220 --> 00:50:00.220\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n1013\n00:50:00.220 --> 00:50:29.220\n[ Silence ]","

David Novak 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Have you ever wondered what it really takes to be excellent at something? If so, you're going to love today's episode with Geoff Colvin. He's a senior editor at large for Fortune Magazine, and one of the most curious and articulate people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know over the years. See, Jeff is also fascinated by excellence in human performance, especially for business leaders. He spent decades talking to experts analyzing research and asking big questions. And today, you get to benefit from his know how, if there's anything you want to get better at, whether it's at work or at home, this conversation basically gives you a playbook for it. Plus, we get into some bigger questions around AI. And the skills leaders really need to be focusing on right now. I gotta tell you, your mind is going to be spinning with Big Insights. So let's get right to it. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Geoff Colvin?

Jeff, you may recall that I first got to know you when you did an article on yum brands and the power of our recognition culture. And I have to tell you, I've been looking forward to getting to ask you the questions this time. So thanks for being on the show.

Geoff Colvin 1:46

I'm so glad you asked me I remember that article very well, as you might well imagine and visiting you and so many are your colleagues in Louisville and seeing how you do what you do. And it was a it was a great experience. I can tell you, it was a very popular article too. So thank you,

David Novak 2:01

you know, in your book, and we're going to talk about some of your books today, you talk about the importance of a supportive environment for world class performance. What do you mean by a supportive environment?

Geoff Colvin 2:12

Fundamentally, it's an environment in which a young person can try different things, and be supported in what they want to do without excessive criticism. It's a fine line to walk, but be encouraged to do what they do, given the freedom to try different things, and be sort of gently pushed, but not shoved. I'll tell you though, it really summed it up for me when I was working on the book, got to know the preeminent researcher in the field of great performance, who is a professor at Florida State named Anders Ericsson. And he said to me, at one point, you know, the real frontier, on the research here is about parenting. He said, the ability of a parent to make a kid understand that there is a path to greatness. And it's not easy. It's not short. But it's there, to make them appreciate that and want to go down that path without forcing them too much. That's the art that some parents have, and some don't.

David Novak 3:29

Now, Jeff, I know you went off and went to Harvard, which is a great accomplishment, because everyone knows how great that school is. And you got your NBA at NYU. What's your view on the NBA today? Is that a must have for aspiring leaders,

Geoff Colvin 3:44

I really don't think so at all, it's a great thing to to get. I mean, you learn some stuff there, that will be valuable to you, if you're going to be a leader in business, at a lot of business schools, the curriculum is being reimagined redone, in ways that actually help leaders, I think, meaning what we're seeing at Harvard Business School, Stanford Business School, and a bunch of others. They're changing the curriculum, to emphasize the skills of human interaction. They are putting people in situations where that's what they have to develop, they didn't used to do that, you know, it was all just classroom stuff. They are understanding that the skills of human interaction are going to be the most valuable skills in the years ahead and their training. Um, so it is, it's a great thing. But I'll tell you, I know so many great leaders who don't have MBAs, that it's clear to me, it's not mandatory.

David Novak 4:45

You're obviously a big thinker about what's going on in the world and in business, and, you know, how do you develop your views and figure out what you really want to write about?

Geoff Colvin 4:56

Well, a lot of it is just talking to some Many people, one of the great great things about my job is that I do get to see a lot of businesses and a lot of leaders up pretty close and talk to them. And another thing that helps is, I mean, I'm sincerely interested in this, I'm not doing something because I have to do it, I, I'm genuinely interested in all this stuff I get to do. And so you accumulate a sort of critical mass of information, you start being able to connect things you hear, and that's where it comes from. But there's another element in your question that's really important, which is how do I decide what I want to write about or what I think, like so many people, I realized, I don't really know what I think until I have to sit down and write it. That's when you figure out the cure, you've left something out that you're not being logical, you got to sit down to write it before, at least I do before I really even know what I think,

David Novak 5:56

you know, I always say there's nothing more sobering than looking at a blank sheet of a blank computer screen and know that you've got to fill it up with your ideas and your creativity. Yep, it's intimidating. You know, Jeff, I really loved your best selling book. Talent is Overrated. What really separates world class performance from everybody else? What led you to write that book?

Geoff Colvin 6:18

It came from an article I wrote, for Fortune, an editor at fortune came and said, We're doing an issue about excellence, you know about great performance. And do you have any ideas? Is there anything you'd like to write about that? And I said, Well, yeah, actually, there is I've, I've been assembling sort of random information about it for years, mostly just in my head. But I'd love a chance to write about it. And so they said, Okay, great. Go for it. So I did. And that's when I realized, which I hadn't realized previously, that there was a large body of research, scholarly research on the topic of great performance, and I hadn't known about it. And I realized that hardly anybody else in the general audience knew about it. And it had this clear message in it about where great performance really comes from. So I wrote an article in Fortune, about that. And in all my years at Fortune, and I've been there a lot of years, I have never in my life had a response to an article, like I had to that one, I had readers tell me that they read that article aloud to their little kids, when you could write an awful lot of Fortune articles without anybody ever reading them aloud to their little kids. But for this one they did and that's when I realized, okay, there's much more to be said here. There's an appetite for this. And so I contacted a publisher I've known for a long time, and he just immediately said, Yes, and off, we went.

David Novak 8:01

Well, I want to dig into that content as we go through this discussion with each other. You know, back when I interviewed Rory McIlroy, he said that he didn't like the notion of being called a natural talent. Now, here's a kid where they had videos of him swinging a golf club when he was three years old. And he looked like he was destined to be a pro. But he said the reason he didn't like being called a natural golfer, is that belies all the hard work that it takes to become great at what you do. What's your view on a so called child prodigy and natural talent?

Geoff Colvin 8:33

The premise of the book really, is that great performance comes from a particular process that the researchers called deliberate practice, and we'll get into that, but the gist of the research says further, that natural talent, you know, something you're literally born with an ability to do something fairly specific, like play golf that you're born with. The research says that either is way overrated, or it may be it doesn't even exist. And what Rory said, is a perfect example of what most of the world's great performers are thinking. When people say to them, oh, wow, you have an incredible natural talent. You know, and people like him know that those folks are trying to be nice. So they don't say anything, but inwardly. What we've learned is a lot of great performers resent it. They resent being told that they have a great natural talent for exactly the reason Rory said, because that makes it sound like it was easy for them to get where they got and what he said to you. What they all know is that it wasn't easy. They had to work harder than most of us can ever imagine. To get where they go Got. And sometimes when I try to explain that to people, they're skeptical. But when somebody like Rory McIlroy says it himself and he's one of the world's greatest, you realize there's something to it.

David Novak 10:14

Now you've studied this. So what generally is the true source to top level talent? And I know you talk about deliberate practice as being one of those things?

Geoff Colvin 10:23

Absolutely. If you had to boil it down, that's really what it comes down to it is deliberate practice, which is a very specifically defined thing, which I'll describe is deliberate practice, done, typically four hours a day, every day, for years. And what the world's greatest performers have done is go through that. And it's hard. It's not easy. But they've gone through that typically for years. So what is it? Well, one thing I learned when I did all the research for the book, is that deliberate practice is not what most of us think of when we think of practice. I discovered, for example, that what I do out on the driving range at the golf course, is a pathetic example of deliberate practice, it's not even close. Fortunately, although it's very specific, it's pretty simple to describe, here's what deliberate practices. One, it is an activity that is designed, especially for you, at your current stage, in the development of whatever it is you're doing, whether it's playing golf, or playing the violin, or doing surgery or flying a jet aircraft, or whatever it is, it's designed, especially for you at your current state of development to it is designed to push you just beyond your current abilities, it doesn't try to push you way beyond your current abilities, because then you're just lost, you got no idea what to do. And it doesn't allow you to operate within your current abilities, because then you don't grow. It is constantly pushing you just past what you're able to do right now. It can be repeated at high volume, that turns out to be very important. And the fourth thing, you're getting continual feedback, you can't get better if you don't know how you're doing. That's what deliberate practice boils down to. And that's the activity repeated, as I said, typically four hours a day for years on end, that all the great performers, regardless of their field, typically have in common.

David Novak 12:33

So that's really a great way to maximize your practice those three things that you just talked about.

Geoff Colvin 12:37

Yes, that's exactly right. If you want it to do you some good. You know, that's the way to get maximum benefit from your practice time.

David Novak 12:47

Now, is that really getting you into what you call the Learning Zone?

Geoff Colvin 12:50

Yes, that's a great Yes, that's exactly it. A good friend of both you and me. Professor Knoll, tishy, at the University of Michigan, puts that very well. He says, Look, there's your comfort zone, just outside that there's your learning zone. And just outside that your there's your panic zone. And the the idea is to keep yourself in the Learning Zone, just outside your comfort zone.

David Novak 13:16

Now you talk about taking time, hours and hours and years and years to really get better. You compare it to almost like a rose bloom. Yeah, talk about that.

Geoff Colvin 13:26

Yeah, it takes time. And it depends on the level of competition in your field of endeavor. So it look if you want to be one of the world's great violinists, or one of the world's great golfers, or one of the world's great business leaders, these are fields in which there is intense international competition. And in any field with that characteristic, it's going to take typically 1000s of hours of deliberate practice, before you reach the highest levels, in another field in which there really isn't much intense international competition, you may be able to become a big success with fewer hours. But in most of the fields that most of us are interested in, it's going to take a lot of time. And you know, when you realize 1000s of hours, the typical person who's working a 40 hour week, does 2000 hours of work in a year. And that's work. That's not deliberate practice, that's just doing the job. Deliberate practice is something separate. So, you know, think about 2000 hours, that's a year full time. And that's not nearly enough for success at the highest levels of the most intense, intensely competitive fields.

David Novak 14:46

So what you're really saying here is that a focused work ethic above and beyond the day to day job description is what will really separate you from the pack.

Geoff Colvin 14:55

That's absolutely right. And there a couple important points to make here. One, since that's an awful lot of hours, people sometimes get discouraged. And they say, well, TD, and I'm exhausted at the end of the day as it is, how can I really do 1000s of hours of deliberate practice? On top of that? Well, there are ways for people who are working to incorporate deliberate practice into their work. But there's another thing that needs to be pointed out, too. It may take 1000s of hours to become the world's greatest or among the world's greatest, but you don't have to follow the road all the way to its end, just doing this at all, will make all of us better. dozens of hours, hundreds of hours, will pay off, we will get better from doing it. And that raises the question of, Do you really want to be the world's greatest? It may be possible we know the road to getting there. But the price is very high, and not everybody's gonna want to do it, which is fine.

David Novak 16:06

Is that really why it's so important for us to love what we do in order to really become world class, because I always tell everybody be an avid learner. Because if you're an avid learner, you need to love what you do. So you want to learn more, and you go to work every day and say, Hey, man, I'm gonna get better and better.

Geoff Colvin 16:22

Right? That's great advice. David, that is great advice. I mean, think about what I've said about deliberate practice constantly pushing you just beyond what you're able to do. Well, what does that mean? What it means is, by definition, you're going to be making mistakes, you're going to be having failures. Because if you're trying to do stuff that you can't quite do, at least initially, you're gonna make mistakes. Well, you know, making mistakes every day is not what most people consider fun. So why does anybody do it? This is actually a big question that researchers have faced. Why does anybody do this? Why does any anybody put themselves through this? And the answer is, because they just have a passion for it. And this is really deep, and the research I don't think has gotten to the bottom of it. But to have a passion for it, something that makes you just want to do it, you can't even explain why you just want to do it. That's critical to keep you going through all of this.

David Novak 17:28

You know, what I think you're talking about here is the mindset that you have to have as a leader, and you know, you talk about deliberate practice, but what have you learned about developing the right mindset for world class performance?

Geoff Colvin 17:40

A mindset is a crucial term here. Because you've got to get into the mindset where you realize that this is just part of your life. And you're always thinking this way. I mean, not sports, and music are the field where this is most obvious, right? We talk a lot when we talk about deliberate practice. And a lot of the research has been done in fields of sports and music, because that's where we typically spend huge amounts of time practicing, and a relatively smaller amount of time actually performing. In the world of business, you know, in the world of work that most of us are in, it's not that way at all, we spend virtually all our time actually performing, and very little time, typically doing what you'd call practice. And so what you have to do is find ways to practice within the work. And you can do that. If you have the right mindset, exactly what you're talking about. You're thinking even while you're working. Okay, what skill am I working on right now? You have an ability to step outside yourself and look at the situation, what am I working on right now? And how am I doing? You know, when I'm talking with someone, when I'm giving someone a performance evaluation, when I'm making a sales presentation? What am I trying to do here? And how am I doing? And then you think afterwards? How did that go? What did I miss? Now that I think back? How could I have done it better? It's a little more work than most of us put in. But it really, really pays off. The key is having this mindset, you're always doing deliberate practice.

David Novak 19:22

And Jeff, you write about constantly deepening your knowledge of your profession and your business.

Geoff Colvin 19:27

Yes, yes. And that's a great point, to be the world's greatest or to be great. You have to have a lot of simple domain knowledge. And that may sound obvious, but it's important because there was a time when a lot of you know, suppose it authorities thought the opposite was the truth, especially in business. There was a view for a long time, that if a person was trained as a great manager, they had these managerial and leadership tools. They could take them into any job into any field and apply them and succeed. And eventually, it became clear that that's not right. You need those things. But you also need knowledge of the domain, you really need to just know a lot about your field. And that's something that we all have to do, you really got to put in the hours to learn all of that. And by the way, it one more point. It's another reason that says, nobody is a natural born, great performer, because nobody's born with any knowledge about anything. after all.

David Novak 20:39

That's what I was going to ask you. Are you a natural born leader or leaders made? And I think your point is that leaders are made?

Geoff Colvin 20:47

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's great news. You know, people say, well, it's bad news, because that means I'm not a natural, right? Well, no, but it means that you can be a fantastic leader, because leaders are made.

David Novak 21:03

Because you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who wants to learn how to lead well. But there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and charge you $500 or $1,000, or heck, even $20,000, to try and show you how to lead. That's just not right. If you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to something that will truly help you. And it shouldn't cost a fortune. So I want you to go to how leaders lead.com and start my leadership class. It's really and truly free. And after you take this class, you're going to feel more confident in your role. And you'll be on your way to get the big things done with your team. Go check it out at how leaders lead.com.

You know, leaders do need good coaches. And yes, there's no question about that. What in your experience really makes a world class coach,

Geoff Colvin 22:03

it's often overlooked, especially in the world of business and becoming a business leader. But there is a reason that the world's greatest golfers all have coaches, even at the at the very top of their game, they still have teachers whom they go to the the skills of the coach or teacher are different from the skills of the leader. Well, first of all, it's knowledge of how people progress in that field, whatever it may be, let's say it's business leadership, it's a knowledge of how people typically progress. And then it's an ability to observe the student, and figure out how that person is performing. And then to give that person good, honest, rigorous feedback on how they're doing. Remember, the deliberate practice framework requires continuous feedback. Well, that generally requires somebody else to observe us, we're not very good at judging ourselves, typically, right? We need some other pair of eyes and pair of ears, looking at us and watching us do what we do. And then giving us the feedback on how we're doing. And so the coach can do those things, and knows how leaders progress. In other words, okay, now, you're good at this. What's the next thing you need to get good at?

David Novak 23:30

If there was one coach, you could have people really study to learn on how to do it? Who would you refer them to?

Geoff Colvin 23:36

I happen to be a big fan of someone who was also a great business leader. And I'm thinking of Jack Welch. There are people who nowadays it for reasons I don't understand. Even disparage him a little, it's nonsense. He was one of the all time greats. And he was not only a great leader, he was a great coach. He had an ability to observe people, and to give them feedback in a way that is absolutely candid. He has an ability to tell people, what they're doing well, and what they need to get better at, with complete honesty. And he says things to people that most of us would have trouble saying to people, but he has an ability to say things to people that are, you know, tough or maybe unwelcome. But he can do it in a way that shows he's not angry at you. He's not demeaning you. You know, he just is giving you the facts. And that ability is rare. In my experience.

David Novak 24:46

Let me tell you, I've had the great benefit of getting some great coaching from Jack Welch myself. And you know, one of the things that I appreciated about Jack and you, Jeff, is that you take the time to codify your learning, so that you can give back to others, do you find a giving nature critical and being a coach?

Geoff Colvin 25:04

Yes, yes, it is. It's like somebody who's good at anything else, kind of what we were talking about. They've got to like what they do. And coaches have got a like, coaching, which means imparting their wisdom. And it is a different skill. It's a different skill from performing in itself.

David Novak 25:26

Let me ask you this, one of the people you've interviewed and studied, which person surprised you the most, after you met him or her? And you were so shocked that they reached this pinnacle of success?

Geoff Colvin 25:39

Well, that's a really good question. And it's a kind of a hard question. Because I've met so many of them who were really terrific. Here's a little story that I think really exemplifies what you're talking about. I do a lot of moderating of panels at conferences and stuff like that fortune conferences and other conferences, a lot of on stage interviewing of people. And probably the strangest one I ever had to moderate was a panel of two people. This was some years ago, but it was two people. And a lot of folks I talked to know one or the other these two people but may not know both of them. So here are the two people. One was Russell Simmons, who is in the world of hip hop music, the great entrepreneur, tremendously successful founder of record label, fashion label, and he's very, very successful in the world of hip hop music. On stage with him, the other person I was supposed to interview together with was General Norman Schwarzkopf. The US General who commanded American forces in the first Iraq war 1990 91, a four star general, and a hip hop mogul, you know, they'd never met. And I suspect this is only a guess, that actually not only that, neither one of them knew who the other one was. Okay, they had no idea. And yet, by the end of the interview, they loved each other. Because what they found was that the principles of leadership they were talking about, were the same. They were in the two most different worlds you could possibly imagine, I would say. And yet, they discovered that what they had to say about leadership was exactly the same. They were just endorsing one another by the end of this thing, you know, big hug afterwards. It was it was really something but it shows you that, you know, there aren't any secrets here. There really aren't

David Novak 27:53

that? Well, that's a dramatic example, that's probably changed the way you think a little bit when you see different kinds of leaders.

Geoff Colvin 28:00

That's exactly right. Because I've learned that leadership is everywhere. And it has a lot in common with all of their leadership, no matter where it is.

David Novak 28:09

You know, Jeff, you've also written this tremendously insightful book about the future about how humans can win in this age of artificial intelligence. It's called humans are underrated. What high achievers know that brilliant machines? never will. I love that title. It's fantastic. What's the premise behind this book

Geoff Colvin 28:29

yet? Well, the premise here is, technology is becoming so good at things that people do that you really start to wonder, how are we poor humans going to add value? How are we going to be economically valuable? How are we going to earn a living that will, you know, maintain our standard of living for ourselves and our kids, as technology does more and more of this stuff, not just faster and cheaper, but also better than we ourselves do it? And what got me going on the book was having some personal experiences, or I saw this for myself, you know, machines software, doing high value work, not just you know, menial work, not just mechanic, I mean, high value difficult work better than humans. So I thought, Well, okay, well, this has to be faced, this is going to be a big issue for decades to come.

David Novak 29:28

Well, what's going to be the future of us poor humans? You know, most people think that we've always can innovate our way out of this. What's your view?

Geoff Colvin 29:36

And we always have that's absolutely right. We need to remember the lesson of history here. Technology has been advancing in a big way, you know, for 250 years now. And over that time, advancing technology has always eliminated jobs, but at the same time, it has always enabled the creation of have new jobs that on average, are higher value, they pay better, and there are more of them than the old jobs that were eliminated. And so that's why the record of the past 250 years has been more employment and rising living standards like nothing the world had ever seen before. So that's history. The big question now is, will the pattern of history continue? Will the old pattern hold with today's technology advances? And first of all, I do not claim to know the answer. But what's striking to me is that for the first time in history, it's a real question. I get this question I just posed, you know, will the historical pattern hold? I've asked this question. Now, in the past few months, to three different rooms, full of CEOs, big deal CEOs of famous companies and stuff, asked exactly the same question. You know, here's your choice. Choice A, the historical pattern will hold as today's technology advances or be this No, it won't. This time, it's different. So I just asked him for a show of hands. And in each case, it's been about 5050. Until a few years ago, that would have been unimaginable. You know, everybody knew what the historical pattern was. Now, we really don't know. And that's unprecedented in human history.

David Novak 31:27

Well, we'll see. Are you an optimist? Or what's your view?

Geoff Colvin 31:30

Well, I am an optimist. But and this is really what the book came down to the question was, what skills will make us valuable? And the answer that I came down to was the skills of deep human interaction, managing the relationships that exist only between real life human beings. That's the part that is becoming increasingly valuable, economically valuable, that stuff that machines so far, are just not capable of doing. And my guess is, won't be capable of doing for quite a while. So if we can get lots of people to master those skills, then I do think there's a great future for us. But these are different from the skills that have always made us valuable in the past, which were typically technical skills that you could learn in the classroom.

David Novak 32:28

Well, I know that Peter Drucker always said that the knowledge worker was the most valuable player. And you seem to be suggesting that that's going to change the ability to work with human beings and do what computers can't is going to be the big, big driver.

Geoff Colvin 32:44

Yeah, that's exactly right. And Peter Drucker was right. I mean, he coined that term, I think, 60 years ago or something, he was always ahead of his time. And I think he was absolutely right when he said that, but we are now entering a fundamentally new era where software is doing the work of lawyers and doctors, not just faster and cheaper, but better than they can do some of that work. And the technology we have to remember, gets roughly twice as good every two years. And I know that I personally do not.

David Novak 33:23

Okay, how do as humans survive and thrive? What do you think is the most important human trait we've got to leverage

Geoff Colvin 33:29

in a word empathy. And by empathy, I don't just mean feeling someone else's pain, although it is that it is the ability to discern what somebody else is thinking or feeling, whatever it may be, and then to respond in some appropriate way. That's what it is, and an ability to do that then leads to all kinds of other abilities that are increasingly, you know, not just what I think will be valuable, but what increasingly employers are demanding.

David Novak 34:03

Well, you talk about the critical skill of solving problems creatively together. And together was the operative word. Talk about that.

Geoff Colvin 34:11

You know, the research on this is so fascinating. I mean, first of all, solving problems together is what we all need to be able to do. The problems we face in our companies today are too hard for somebody sitting alone in their office to solve we have to do it with teams. And so how to teams do it what makes teams effective? The research is just remarkable because the answer is not what most of us think. It has nothing to do with the cohesion or motivation or satisfaction of the team. It has absolutely nothing to do with the IQ of the smartest person on the team. It has only a little to do with the average IQ of the team. It has an awful lot to do with the social sensitivity D of the team members, their ability to read one another. In other words, we're right back to empathy. A team where people on average have very high social sensitivity is the most effective teams, because that team will get a lot of ideas out of everybody out onto the table. And it will be very efficient and effective at coming to consensus about what the good ideas were, and then what the not so good ideas were. And so this critical component of empathy turns out to be the key to great team performance problem solving together. You know, it's

David Novak 35:39

interesting, it really makes a lot of common sense, because I've seen it on teams. But the other thing you talk about is the power of a really great team is that no one dominates.

Geoff Colvin 35:49

Yep, that turns out to be key. If anybody takes over, you know, if any individual dominates the team, then you've killed the creativity and the problem solving, it's just not going to happen. And we've all been, heaven knows, we have all been involved with teams that had somebody like that. And typically, it's the boss, although sometimes it's just someone who is particularly, you know, overbearing, and it shuts down the team. And so you're right, no one dominates when a team is effective.

David Novak 36:24

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Jeff Colvin, in just a moment. You know, when you talk about athletes who consistently perform at the highest level, the name Tom Brady might just come to mind with good reason. When I had a chance to sit down with the goat, he absolutely backed up the ideas Jeff is talking about today, to compete at the highest level, Thomas had to put in the hard work, deliberate practice and a lot of intentional communication with his teammates.

Tom Brady 36:56

CCC, clear current communication, you know, really being clear, not, you know, man, I'm going to say something and see if they can figure it out. Or I'm gonna try to dance around a topic and then current, you know, what's happening in the moment, not, hey, this thing happened two months ago, and it's really bothering me. It's no, hey, this is the situation we're currently dealing with. And you got to communicate, and so many people don't want to communicate. And I think CCC is really important on a personal level. But it's certainly really important in a professional environment as well.

David Novak 37:30

Take a deeper dive into Tom Brady's elite habits and mindset, when you listen to episode 53, here on how leaders lead.

Are companies doing a good job of training people on how not to dominate on a team who's doing this? Well,

Geoff Colvin 37:52

this companies and organizations are just getting into it. As a matter of fact, they are just coming to understand what makes teams really effective and coming to understand that these skills can be taught. And where I see it being done is pretty interesting. It is being done, for example, in a lot of healthcare institutions, where you know, they have to have teams solve, you know, really important problems, sometimes life and death problems, sometimes more mundane, but they're learning how to train people in these skills. And by the way, one example I happen to be familiar with is what's being done at Cleveland Clinic where they have really developed a whole program for teaching the skills of relationships that are the foundation of good team performance. Another one that really surprises people, is the US military. I don't know of any institution that understands the value of these skills of deep human interaction. And that trains these skills better than the US military. And that surprises people. But it doesn't surprise anybody who's been involved with the military over the past 15 years or so. They have taken this on very heavily and they're doing a great job of

David Novak 39:11

it. That's great. I always like to find out where those best practices are and go to school on him.

Geoff Colvin 39:15

Yeah. And there's a place where most people wouldn't think to look, but they should. You know, you

David Novak 39:20

also talk about the great leaders, the world class performers, they are really excellent storytellers. What do you mean by that? In a way,

Geoff Colvin 39:27

this is something that I think we all know, but most of our organizations don't really value storytelling. They value charts and graphs. And that's okay. You know, we're going to have to make our business decisions based on data and good analysis of data that's never going to change. But analysis of data is exactly what technology is doing better and better every day. If we try to distinguish ourselves by doing that we're going to lose because the computers do it better and better. Every Day, at the same time, we all know from personal experience, if you want to change people's minds, if you want to have people remember something, and if you want to inspire people to action, don't show them charts and graphs, tell them a story. That's what does it. And that turns out to be an incredibly valuable skill.

David Novak 40:26

Absolutely. And there's no computer that can do that.

Geoff Colvin 40:29

Not so far. They're working on it, actually. But so far, no.

David Novak 40:34

And you also talk about in this new world that we're moving into now is that women hold strong advantages over men. Yeah. Why do you say that?

Geoff Colvin 40:41

The reason I say that is, let me put it this way. Here, we've been talking for the last several minutes about the skills of deep human interaction, you know, empathy, discerning what someone else is thinking and feeling and so forth. Okay. Forget about research. I'll tell you about that in a second. But forget about all the research. Just ask yourself from your own life experience, who on average, do you think is better at those things? Men or women? Right? This is not a hard question. We all know the answer. And in fact, the research supports that there's a lot of research, I just don't think we really need the research. Women, on average, are better at these skills than men are. And there's a lot of speculation about why that should be so and to say, on average, doesn't mean that every woman is better than every man, that's not correct. And furthermore, we can all get better. But if we are entering the era, when skills of deep human interaction are going to be really the way value is created, then I do think that women go in with an advantage over men.

David Novak 41:55

You know, if you look at millennials, their turnover rate is three times higher than previous generations. Why do you think that is?

Geoff Colvin 42:02

A number of reasons, I do think that they have a different set of expectations of work. They, you know, they saw their parents who maybe wished for job security and turned out not to have it. And they just can't imagine staying in one place for their whole careers, some of them will do so. But that's just not what they think of as the basic paradigm. There is another issue here, though, that a lot of people worry about when they think of the next generation in their companies. And that is do millennials have these skills of deep human interaction because they spend so much of their time interacting digitally, rather than in person face to face? And I've got to tell you, the research suggests that maybe that is a problem, that all of that time spent communicating with their thumbs rather than by actually talking to somebody. It does diminish empathy, and it can be brought back. But it does diminish empathy, and it is a concern. Do you have

David Novak 43:13

any recommendations for people who work remotely because I think that makes it even more difficult?

Geoff Colvin 43:18

It does, it does. And the recommendations for those people are first, do try to get together physically, occasionally, with your teammates. Just an ability to do that every once in a while, really adds a lot of richness and value to the interactions you have remotely. And second, even if you can't do that very much. Still try to develop these skills of deep human interaction, because the research shows that the people who have those skills which are mostly in person face to face skills, the people who have those skills also are more effective operating remotely, it really comes through even when you're not in person face to face.

David Novak 43:59

Jeff, I just got a few more questions I want to talk to you about you say that building human capital is one of the most important aspects of any kind of business. What do you mean by that? And as a leader, what should you do to make that happen?

Geoff Colvin 44:13

It is absolutely critical. And look, David, you you know this, you knew this a long time ago, the human capital is the most valuable capital in the business. And a lot of employers don't do very much to really improve it. And by that, it means helping people develop the skills that they're gonna need. It is possible for every company to invest more in that and there are all kinds of ways to do it. You can mix people up into different assignments. You can give them action learning projects, you can give them some classroom, although that's not the most effective way to do it. But it's an investment. And I guess what I would say to managers or people who are leading companies now is think of it as an investment, not as a cost that will come back to benefit you,

David Novak 44:56

you know, just listening to you if I was running a business right Now I gotta tell you, I couldn't wait to get back to my office, talk to the people and say, Hey, we're going to start training people on social connectivity skills. We're going to teach people how not to dominate meetings. We're going to teach people how to be on teams. And I think this is a huge fertile area for the business world.

Geoff Colvin 45:16

I totally agree. It is a huge opportunity. Give,

David Novak 45:19

you're obviously really articulate, you do a lot of public speaking, was that something you could always do? Or did it take some deliberate practice to pull this off?

Geoff Colvin 45:31

No, it's not it was not natural. I had to answer. Well, I had to give that answer, of course, but in fact, it it really is correct. I love it. I love doing that. Now, I do a lot of speaking. And unlike most people who hate it, I love it. But no, I wasn't always that way at all. But I had some great coaches and teachers along the way, in high school, when I was in high school, it was in Illinois, it's a state that had in still has a well developed system of competition in speaking events, public speaking events statewide. And our school competed. And I had a fantastic teacher who coached us, and I competed all over the state along with other kids. And that was really important that turns out to have been important for the whole rest of my life.

David Novak 46:22

You know, Jeff, I love this quote that you have, where you say developing leaders is in the program, it's a way of living. Yes. And you know, you're so passionate about leaders, people interaction, just what's going on in the world. And I want to thank you for making it your living, because you're really making a big time difference in the world. And I really appreciate you sharing that wisdom today.

Geoff Colvin 46:43

I really, thank you for saying that. And honestly, David, I appreciate it. Because coming from you, it means an awful lot. I don't know anybody in business, who has done more to develop leaders than you have, and you're still doing it, which I am delighted to see. So congratulations on all you're doing and thank you.

David Novak 47:11

I'll always be so grateful for the article, Jeff wrote profiling our recognition culture at yum brands, it really helped get the word out that recognition is a key part of building a high performing team. In that article, and in everything he does, Jeff is passionate about building and sharing nohow he believes deeply in the wonderful potential of people. You know, when we really focus on skills of deep human interaction, when we have the mindset of deliberate practice, when we focus on talent, and even more on effort, we really can perform at our very best and help others do the same. This week, why not try out this concept of deliberate practice for yourself. Remember the qualities that Jeff mentions, it's got to push you just outside your current abilities. It's got to be repeatable. And you've got to find a way to get feedback on what you're doing. Apply it as you prepare for a presentation, or find a way to bring deliberate practice to a common skill. You use it work, like writing or data analysis. But whatever you do know this. When you get into that mindset, where you're always asking how to get better. Guess what? You absolutely will get better. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders use deliberate practice to improve. Coming up next on how leaders lead. I'm talking with Mike McCoy. He's captaining the United States Walker Cup team, which will be teeing off next week at the legendary old course at St. Andrews,

Mike McCoy 48:54

the USGA, they demand the ability to sustain yourself over an entire week under very trying conditions. And, you know, a lot of guys, when they show up and see the grass is a little longer, and the greens are a little firmer and faster. You know, you've got half the field beat already. And I think that's kind of true in business. Some people when they get in there, and they see what a mess that clients got. They just sort of throw their hands up. And that's kind of where I like to dig in and solve those big problems.

David Novak 49:26

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday, you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

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Deliberate practice is different than just "practicing"

Geoff Colvin