[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_137":-5,"_138":-5,"_139":140,"_141":142,"_143":144},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1236/good-data-can-lead-to-good-gut-decisions","id",1236,"title","Good data can lead to good “gut” decisions","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.800\nFirst of all, I'm a nerd.\n\n2\n00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:04.360\nI study and read everything.\n\n3\n00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:07.280\nWe work the numbers, the models, the facts.\n\n4\n00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:08.280\nI look at history.\n\n5\n00:00:08.280 --> 00:00:10.200\nI do all of that.\n\n6\n00:00:10.200 --> 00:00:13.230\nIn some ways, it's hard to separate that from your gut because that actually\n\n7\n00:00:13.230 --> 00:00:13.600\nbeats\n\n8\n00:00:13.600 --> 00:00:14.600\nthe gut.\n\n9\n00:00:14.600 --> 00:00:18.390\nBut if you analyze what you call gut and people analyze it, it's based upon\n\n10\n00:00:18.390 --> 00:00:19.600\npattern recognition,\n\n11\n00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:24.800\nthings you've learned, mistakes you've made, and that leads to the gut.\n\n12\n00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:28.290\nBut it's really a great question because if you ask me, how many times do I\n\n13\n00:00:28.290 --> 00:00:28.840\nguess at\n\n14\n00:00:28.840 --> 00:00:30.640\na decision, very rarely?\n\n15\n00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.600\nI always say sometimes the good answer is a way to be found.\n\n16\n00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:37.260\nAnd the way to be found, you work with the right people in the room over and\n\n17\n00:00:37.260 --> 00:00:37.760\nover.\n\n18\n00:00:37.760 --> 00:00:40.320\nThere's something you can do quick, something a little bit longer.\n\n19\n00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:43.880\nYou should take more time on what Jeff Bezos calls the one door.\n\n20\n00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:45.960\nWhen you go into the window, you can't go back.\n\n21\n00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:46.960\nI deal with more.\n\n22\n00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:48.960\nThat's people decisions, certain strategic decisions.\n\n23\n00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:50.360\nA lot of them you go back.\n\n24\n00:00:50.360 --> 00:00:51.360\nYou can test and learn.\n\n25\n00:00:51.360 --> 00:00:52.360\nIt doesn't work.\n\n26\n00:00:52.360 --> 00:00:53.360\nYou try something else.\n\n27\n00:00:53.360 --> 00:00:55.560\nSo some of you make quicker that people make their own gut.\n\n28\n00:00:55.560 --> 00:01:00.040\nAnother thing is, as you know, you can't make all this in yourself.\n\n29\n00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:01.040\nEven if I could, I shouldn't.\n\n30\n00:01:01.040 --> 00:01:07.030\nI've got to let people do it and learn how to get in that boxy ring and stuff\n\n31\n00:01:07.030 --> 00:01:08.720\nlike that.\n\n32\n00:01:08.720 --> 00:01:11.960\nSo I tell you, I taste in some ways more analytical than people think.\n\n33\n00:01:11.960 --> 00:01:12.960\nYeah.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",856223,"end_time",928049,"keywords","data, gut, decision making, process, JPMorgan Chase","slug","good-data-can-lead-to-good-gut-decisions","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","lw2ye8gR4EeldW73jMO5grj502TGydZtx6xUlUSVrGRo","mux_asset_id","aDICys00quYHdVJujczSQJLV832cPKGskXMO01bzOKmQA","leader_id",125,"episode_id",274,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:39:48.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1236/good-data-can-lead-to-good-gut-decisions","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_101":102,"_103":104,"_105":106,"_25":107,"_108":109,"_62":110,"_59":110,"_111":112,"_69":113,"_39":114,"_115":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_116":117,"_89":118,"_44":119,"_120":121,"_122":123,"_46":-5,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_93":128,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":58,"_59":60,"_61":-5,"_62":60,"_63":-5,"_64":65,"_66":67,"_68":-5,"_69":-5,"_70":71,"_72":73,"_74":-5,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_76":77,"_78":79,"_80":81,"_82":83,"_84":-5,"_85":-5,"_86":87,"_88":-5,"_89":-5,"_46":-5,"_90":91,"_92":-5,"_93":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Part 1: Always Have a Plan to Deal With Problems","part-1-always-have-a-plan-to-deal-with-problems","Learn how a straightforward leadership style helps Jamie prepare for the worst (and the best) scenarios. Plus, no-nonsense wisdom on decision making, work-life balance, and how corporations can be more socially responsible.","summary","

Today’s guest is Jamie Dimon, Chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase.

He took this job back in 2006 – and it has not been an easy road. He faced the global financial crisis in ‘08, the COVID-19 pandemic, and all its aftermath. It’s just been one thing after another.

But I love the no-nonsense way Jamie approaches leadership in these tough moments. He isn’t surprised by problems. He’s prepared for them. As he puts it, “you don’t have a war and then decide to have an army. You better have the army first.”

As leaders, we have to be real and say that problems are going to come up.

They might be big or small, short-term or long-term. But one thing’s for sure: they’re going to be there. And we’ve got to be prepared.

There’s just so much we can learn from Jamie so we always have a plan to deal with problems.

You’ll also learn:

Jamie’s source of motivation in tough times – and why it’s critical for team-building
How to listen to both the data and your gut when you’re making big decisions
How Jamie’s readjusted his life and work after a major health scare
Specific ways corporations can be more socially responsible
The surprising trait you need more of the higher up you get in an organization

Take your learning further. Get proven leadership advice from these (free!) resources:

The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

Whichever you choose, you can be sure you’ll get the trusted leadership advice you need to advance your career, develop your team, and grow your business.

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.540\nWelcome to Hal Leaders Lead where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:07.540 --> 00:00:08.320\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.520\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:10.520 --> 00:00:13.980\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:14.580\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:18.560\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:21.120\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:26.760\nToday's guest is Jamie Diamond, the Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase.\n\n9\n00:00:26.760 --> 00:00:32.880\nNow he took this job back in 2006 and goodness gracious, it has not been easy.\n\n10\n00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:37.880\nHe faced the global financial crisis in '08, the pandemic and all the aftermath\n\n11\n00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:38.280\n.\n\n12\n00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:41.890\nI mean at one point in this conversation, I have to just ask him if it's\n\n13\n00:00:41.890 --> 00:00:42.600\npossible to\n\n14\n00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:45.040\nhave fun in business anymore.\n\n15\n00:00:45.040 --> 00:00:49.020\nBut I love the no-nonsense way Jamie approaches leadership in these tough\n\n16\n00:00:49.020 --> 00:00:50.120\nmoments because he\n\n17\n00:00:50.120 --> 00:00:52.200\nisn't surprised by problems.\n\n18\n00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:53.760\nHe's prepared for them.\n\n19\n00:00:53.760 --> 00:00:57.200\nAs he puts it, you don't have a war and then decide to have an army.\n\n20\n00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:59.360\nYou better have the army first.\n\n21\n00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:04.320\nI mean as leaders, we got to be real and say the problems are going to come up.\n\n22\n00:01:04.320 --> 00:01:05.560\nThey just are.\n\n23\n00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:09.760\nThey might be big or they might be small, short term or long term.\n\n24\n00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:14.480\nBut one thing's for sure, they're going to be there and we got to be prepared.\n\n25\n00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:19.250\nThere's just so much we can learn from Jamie so we always have a plan to deal\n\n26\n00:01:19.250 --> 00:01:20.480\nwith problems.\n\n27\n00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:25.740\nSo buckle up, here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours,\n\n28\n00:01:25.740 --> 00:01:32.440\nJamie Diamond.\n\n29\n00:01:32.440 --> 00:01:36.400\nEveryone has their own style and their own way of leading and today's guest, my\n\n30\n00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:36.920\nvery good\n\n31\n00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:41.910\nfriend Jamie Diamond, the chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, is a leader who\n\n32\n00:01:41.910 --> 00:01:42.520\nleads by\n\n33\n00:01:42.520 --> 00:01:46.400\nbeing absolutely real in everything he does.\n\n34\n00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:49.760\nJamie, I know you got a million irons in the fire right now.\n\n35\n00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.760\nSo I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me.\n\n36\n00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.960\nI'm throwing a video today, baby.\n\n37\n00:01:56.960 --> 00:02:01.490\nIt's hard to believe but it's actually the anniversary of the financial crisis\n\n38\n00:02:01.490 --> 00:02:02.520\nof 2008\n\n39\n00:02:02.520 --> 00:02:07.380\nto 12 years ago and I was on the JP Morgan Chase Board at the time and I\n\n40\n00:02:07.380 --> 00:02:08.800\nbasically watched\n\n41\n00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:13.960\nyou and JP Morgan Chase save the US economy and the financial system.\n\n42\n00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:18.470\nCould you remind us of the events and what you specifically learned from the\n\n43\n00:02:18.470 --> 00:02:19.720\ncrisis yourself?\n\n44\n00:02:19.720 --> 00:02:20.720\nYeah.\n\n45\n00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:26.510\nSo you and I have been together a long time going way back for almost 25 years\n\n46\n00:02:26.510 --> 00:02:27.160\nnow and\n\n47\n00:02:27.160 --> 00:02:28.160\nwe've learned a lot together.\n\n48\n00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:33.080\nI always learned a lot watching you and our buddy Andy Pearson too back then.\n\n49\n00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:36.720\nSo the crisis started, it was actually starting to mature with what people\n\n50\n00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:37.320\nthink.\n\n51\n00:02:37.320 --> 00:02:42.760\nLike in the summer of 2007 the quant funds started to have problems and then\n\n52\n00:02:42.760 --> 00:02:43.720\nBear Stearns\n\n53\n00:02:43.720 --> 00:02:47.510\nwas the one that people remembered between Boy and March of '08 which kind of\n\n54\n00:02:47.510 --> 00:02:47.920\nmarked\n\n55\n00:02:47.920 --> 00:02:50.440\nthe part of the beginning real bad times.\n\n56\n00:02:50.440 --> 00:02:54.440\nAnd before Lehman you had insurance companies, you had Fannie Mae and Freddie\n\n57\n00:02:54.440 --> 00:02:55.200\nMac, you had\n\n58\n00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:58.740\na lot of savings alone, you had a lot of mortgage brokers, you had this\n\n59\n00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:00.160\nterrible mortgage market\n\n60\n00:03:00.160 --> 00:03:03.360\nwas unveiling how bad it was and then you had Lehman.\n\n61\n00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:08.440\nAnd Lehman was obviously kind of the worst part and even after Lehman to go to\n\n62\n00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:09.480\nMarch of\n\n63\n00:03:09.480 --> 00:03:12.440\n2009 that's in the market at the bottom.\n\n64\n00:03:12.440 --> 00:03:16.760\nSo this thing unfolded like just a multiple train wreck that took place over\n\n65\n00:03:16.760 --> 00:03:17.440\nthe course\n\n66\n00:03:17.440 --> 00:03:22.360\nof a year and of course a lot of the workers who remember good major banks all\n\n67\n00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:22.960\nover Europe\n\n68\n00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:23.960\nfelling.\n\n69\n00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:28.760\nSo this was cascading a global problem and what do you learn?\n\n70\n00:03:28.760 --> 00:03:33.350\nThe first thing you learn is you don't have a war on the decide you can have an\n\n71\n00:03:33.350 --> 00:03:33.880\narmy,\n\n72\n00:03:33.880 --> 00:03:37.630\nyou better have the army first so that in some way we didn't change a lot so\n\n73\n00:03:37.630 --> 00:03:38.160\nyou may\n\n74\n00:03:38.160 --> 00:03:42.440\nremember some of our risk committee meetings and we went from having them once\n\n75\n00:03:42.440 --> 00:03:42.840\na week\n\n76\n00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:47.240\nto our mobile issues to having every single day and three or four times a day.\n\n77\n00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:50.300\nIn fact, you may remember I took you guys to one of the risk committee I said I\n\n78\n00:03:50.300 --> 00:03:50.520\ncan't\n\n79\n00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:53.800\nhave the board but you come and we went through clients, we went through\n\n80\n00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:54.680\ncountries, we went\n\n81\n00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:58.260\nthrough exposure, we went through collateral, we went through margin calls, we\n\n82\n00:03:58.260 --> 00:03:58.760\nwent through\n\n83\n00:03:58.760 --> 00:04:02.940\nclients who were calling for help and so but we were kind of prepared on that\n\n84\n00:04:02.940 --> 00:04:03.600\nbasis.\n\n85\n00:04:03.600 --> 00:04:07.660\nThe other thing in the financial world crises happen and they happen in ways\n\n86\n00:04:07.660 --> 00:04:08.240\nyou don't\n\n87\n00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.270\nnecessarily understand like look at the one today which in many ways is worse\n\n88\n00:04:12.270 --> 00:04:12.800\nbecause\n\n89\n00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:17.980\nit's a health crisis with a major recession with some of the global financial\n\n90\n00:04:17.980 --> 00:04:18.840\ncrisis attached\n\n91\n00:04:18.840 --> 00:04:20.360\nto it and so on.\n\n92\n00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:25.100\nThe best preparation, have a great company, have good margins, respond quickly,\n\n93\n00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:25.440\ntake care\n\n94\n00:04:25.440 --> 00:04:30.050\nof your customers, know the problems happen, don't be over leveraged, don't say\n\n95\n00:04:30.050 --> 00:04:30.520\nI never\n\n96\n00:04:30.520 --> 00:04:33.400\nexpect something to get bad, it can always get bad.\n\n97\n00:04:33.400 --> 00:04:37.170\nYou know I remember you making the fortress balance sheet your big rallying cry\n\n98\n00:04:37.170 --> 00:04:37.920\nwell before\n\n99\n00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:39.440\nthis happened.\n\n100\n00:04:39.440 --> 00:04:41.440\nWhere did you learn that as a leader?\n\n101\n00:04:41.440 --> 00:04:44.640\nWhere did that become such a key thing to you because you also went after that\n\n102\n00:04:44.640 --> 00:04:45.080\nat bank\n\n103\n00:04:45.080 --> 00:04:48.400\none with a lot of vigids when you became CEO there.\n\n104\n00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:52.610\nYeah before you knew me, I was the president chief of travelers for many years\n\n105\n00:04:52.610 --> 00:04:53.240\nand stuff\n\n106\n00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:58.610\nlike that and I'm a nerd, I studied a lot, my dad was a doc broker, my\n\n107\n00:04:58.610 --> 00:05:00.240\ngrandfather was\n\n108\n00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.450\na doc broker, these crises are not new and so I used to give this whole\n\n109\n00:05:03.450 --> 00:05:04.320\npresentation,\n\n110\n00:05:04.320 --> 00:05:07.350\nthis is before the growth of the financial crisis but all the crisis happened\n\n111\n00:05:07.350 --> 00:05:07.600\nall the\n\n112\n00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:11.600\ntime and they're usually unsuspected, too much leverage, often around\n\n113\n00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:12.680\ncommercial consumer\n\n114\n00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:18.130\nreal estate, often around new financial products and that the preparation is to\n\n115\n00:05:18.130 --> 00:05:18.880\nrun a really\n\n116\n00:05:18.880 --> 00:05:22.410\ngood company and you know I remember when you had your problems with young\n\n117\n00:05:22.410 --> 00:05:23.440\nbrands with\n\n118\n00:05:23.440 --> 00:05:28.290\ngenetically modified stuff or that the people who delivered the food to your\n\n119\n00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:28.880\nstores were\n\n120\n00:05:28.880 --> 00:05:29.880\ndissipation company.\n\n121\n00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:35.370\nYeah and every one of those were able to overcome management focused, I heard\n\n122\n00:05:35.370 --> 00:05:36.320\nbad stores and\n\n123\n00:05:36.320 --> 00:05:39.420\nyou kind of put them in the doctor outfit, you'd pick them up and you'd be sold\n\n124\n00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:39.720\nthem\n\n125\n00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.990\nand you just want to deal with these things, they order a course and recover\n\n126\n00:05:43.990 --> 00:05:44.680\nfrom them\n\n127\n00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.640\nand if you do it, you would do a great job for your customers, your employees,\n\n128\n00:05:47.640 --> 00:05:47.920\nyour\n\n129\n00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:50.400\ncommunities because you're strong.\n\n130\n00:05:50.400 --> 00:05:54.660\nAnd the important thing about the course balance is I believe conserve the\n\n131\n00:05:54.660 --> 00:05:55.560\ncounty, literally\n\n132\n00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:00.060\nis conserved, I don't like contract counts, I think that un-balancing, you know\n\n133\n00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:00.400\nwhat\n\n134\n00:06:00.400 --> 00:06:04.340\nbalance you make absolutely no difference, I believe and for this balance it\n\n135\n00:06:04.340 --> 00:06:04.920\nincludes\n\n136\n00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:09.540\nsports, controls, sports, risk, you know having good margins, understanding all\n\n137\n00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:09.840\nyour\n\n138\n00:06:09.840 --> 00:06:13.330\nexposures and of course you know your exposures in one business is very\n\n139\n00:06:13.330 --> 00:06:14.280\ndifferent in mind\n\n140\n00:06:14.280 --> 00:06:18.520\nyou know but you should understand how bad can that get so you can handle it.\n\n141\n00:06:18.520 --> 00:06:22.810\nYou know looking back JB what are you most proud of of your team and during\n\n142\n00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:23.720\nthat time?\n\n143\n00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:27.210\nJust that they come together, that even when you're not there, they're in the\n\n144\n00:06:27.210 --> 00:06:28.040\nroom and\n\n145\n00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:31.980\nI remember instead of being formal, like the risk could be my 10 members and it\n\n146\n00:06:31.980 --> 00:06:32.600\nwas meeting\n\n147\n00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:38.860\nyou know literally 5 a.m. for the Asians, 10 p.m. at night for the Asians, 12\n\n148\n00:06:38.860 --> 00:06:39.800\nand 1,\n\n149\n00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:43.480\n5 and the people just bring you, you gotta bring.\n\n150\n00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.600\nSo you gotta climb the problem, bring the person, he expert in the climb, the\n\n151\n00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:47.000\nexpert\n\n152\n00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:50.960\nin the product and people are communicating non-stop all through the night\n\n153\n00:06:50.960 --> 00:06:51.880\nsometimes,\n\n154\n00:06:51.880 --> 00:06:56.680\nkeep people briefed, you know, wake up Jamie, don't wake them up, let's respond\n\n155\n00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:57.280\nin constant\n\n156\n00:06:57.280 --> 00:07:04.480\ncontact with governments around the world and just teamwork is those who have\n\n157\n00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:05.040\nnever played\n\n158\n00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:08.440\na team, don't fully understand how good teamwork feels.\n\n159\n00:07:08.440 --> 00:07:12.310\nI remember going to those risk committee meetings with you and watching you\n\n160\n00:07:12.310 --> 00:07:13.560\njust take on event\n\n161\n00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:19.200\nafter event after event and you were like the orchestra conductor but you\n\n162\n00:07:19.200 --> 00:07:19.840\nreally leaned\n\n163\n00:07:19.840 --> 00:07:25.080\nhard on the team and helped them understand how accountable they had to be.\n\n164\n00:07:25.080 --> 00:07:29.810\nHow'd you muster up just the fortitude to go in every day and take on, because\n\n165\n00:07:29.810 --> 00:07:30.160\nyou weren't\n\n166\n00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:34.120\ndoing this one day a week, you were doing this 24/7 every single day.\n\n167\n00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.270\nWe did it every day for the better part of a year or something like that and\n\n168\n00:07:37.270 --> 00:07:37.720\nyou know\n\n169\n00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:42.070\nI don't know, I'm David, I'm just not completely normal, because my friends and\n\n170\n00:07:42.070 --> 00:07:43.480\nfamily say,\n\n171\n00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:48.010\nbut it's also, it's like when you're, you play sports man, you just, you wanna\n\n172\n00:07:48.010 --> 00:07:48.480\nwin that\n\n173\n00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:51.960\ngame, you're gonna do what it takes, you know, within the rules of course and\n\n174\n00:07:51.960 --> 00:07:52.720\nyou're just\n\n175\n00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.090\nand you know you gotta do it and every day you wake up, you know, you just roll\n\n176\n00:07:56.090 --> 00:07:56.320\nup your\n\n177\n00:07:56.320 --> 00:08:00.870\nsleeves and it's, and you just wanna be proud of the team with N+ they're\n\n178\n00:08:00.870 --> 00:08:02.120\nrelying on me.\n\n179\n00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.920\nSo they motivate me because I know they were up all night just to tell me one\n\n180\n00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:06.640\nlittle thing\n\n181\n00:08:06.640 --> 00:08:11.120\nsometimes and the motivation to get from your own people is extraordinary.\n\n182\n00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:14.960\nYou taught me about the recognition thing and the depth of what it means\n\n183\n00:08:14.960 --> 00:08:15.880\nbecause behind\n\n184\n00:08:15.880 --> 00:08:20.260\nrecognition you're acknowledging that they did it not you, you're acknowledging\n\n185\n00:08:20.260 --> 00:08:20.800\nthat you\n\n186\n00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:21.800\ncan't do it all.\n\n187\n00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:24.200\nThere's a humility beneath that.\n\n188\n00:08:24.200 --> 00:08:27.870\nYour analogy you learn from that, it isn't just that you're patting them in the\n\n189\n00:08:27.870 --> 00:08:28.280\nback but\n\n190\n00:08:28.280 --> 00:08:33.210\nyou're basically showing general Jim Mattis when he talks about leadership, he\n\n191\n00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:34.000\ntalks about\n\n192\n00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:35.000\nhumility.\n\n193\n00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.540\nThat you know, you know you don't know, you know the other person's probably in\n\n194\n00:08:38.540 --> 00:08:39.160\nthe firing\n\n195\n00:08:39.160 --> 00:08:42.880\nline and you're not, your job is to be the coach or the, like you said, the\n\n196\n00:08:42.880 --> 00:08:43.440\norchestra\n\n197\n00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.320\ninstructor, not necessarily the quarterback.\n\n198\n00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.800\nYou may not even be playing the game, just making sure the team's playing the\n\n199\n00:08:49.800 --> 00:08:51.600\ngame right.\n\n200\n00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.960\nAnd now Jamie, here we are, we have COVID-19.\n\n201\n00:08:53.960 --> 00:09:00.660\nYou know, how are you navigating JP Morgan Chase through these crazy times and\n\n202\n00:09:00.660 --> 00:09:01.480\nhow much\n\n203\n00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:06.820\ndo you think just the financial crisis that you went through in 2008, you know,\n\n204\n00:09:06.820 --> 00:09:07.200\nreally\n\n205\n00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:09.600\nhas helped prepare you for this?\n\n206\n00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:10.600\nYeah.\n\n207\n00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:16.580\nSo we started a COVID-19 war room like maybe a month before they actually\n\n208\n00:09:16.580 --> 00:09:17.600\nstarted shutting\n\n209\n00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:19.520\ndown because we were really worried about it.\n\n210\n00:09:19.520 --> 00:09:23.650\nSo coming like ours, preparing for, you did two for disaster recovery, we kind\n\n211\n00:09:23.650 --> 00:09:24.080\nof had\n\n212\n00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:29.280\npandemic playbooks but we didn't have a global pandemic and global economics\n\n213\n00:09:29.280 --> 00:09:31.000\nshut down playbook.\n\n214\n00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:34.480\nBut the team did the exact same thing, they started being every day.\n\n215\n00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:35.480\nWhat can we do from home?\n\n216\n00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:36.480\nWhat we do from here?\n\n217\n00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:38.200\nHow can you move it to those seats?\n\n218\n00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:39.600\nI need those seats.\n\n219\n00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.040\nHow many brands do we keep open?\n\n220\n00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:43.320\nHow can we keep moving the money around the world?\n\n221\n00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:44.480\nAnd the whole world closed down.\n\n222\n00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:50.100\nSo we had 65,000 people put out of work in India and the Philippines, you know,\n\n223\n00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:50.440\nwe're\n\n224\n00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:51.440\ndoing work for us.\n\n225\n00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:54.180\nAnd so, but the same thing, the team started beating all the time and\n\n226\n00:09:54.180 --> 00:09:55.200\nmanagement committee\n\n227\n00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:57.640\nstill meets every day at 10 o'clock.\n\n228\n00:09:57.640 --> 00:10:00.320\nAny issues on the table, bring up whatever you've got to bring up.\n\n229\n00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.130\nSome of the meetings are short, some of them are long, some with debate the\n\n230\n00:10:03.130 --> 00:10:03.680\nissue, some\n\n231\n00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:06.620\nguys say that it's a chicken or steak, it doesn't really matter if what you do,\n\n232\n00:10:06.620 --> 00:10:06.840\njust\n\n233\n00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:08.320\ndo want to move on.\n\n234\n00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:14.720\nSo, but the lessons are the same and I would say about half the people are here\n\n235\n00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:15.600\nfor that.\n\n236\n00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:16.600\nNot all of them.\n\n237\n00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.480\nSo I think a lot of the younger people learn how you do crisis management.\n\n238\n00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.370\nOne of the beautiful things also is you know, when we all complain about\n\n239\n00:10:24.370 --> 00:10:25.320\nbureaucracy or\n\n240\n00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.080\nslowness or that all goes away.\n\n241\n00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:32.780\nI mean, necessity is the mother of invention, you just learn to do stuff a lot\n\n242\n00:10:32.780 --> 00:10:33.520\nfaster and\n\n243\n00:10:33.520 --> 00:10:36.120\nwith less, you know, getting left permission up the line.\n\n244\n00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:39.330\nYeah, I remember just recently, you know, a couple of years ago, everybody said\n\n245\n00:10:39.330 --> 00:10:39.440\n, you\n\n246\n00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.140\nknow, all these young finance people, business people come up, they don't\n\n247\n00:10:42.140 --> 00:10:42.800\nreally know what\n\n248\n00:10:42.800 --> 00:10:45.960\nit's like to operate in a tough environment.\n\n249\n00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:49.520\nWe had such a run after 2009.\n\n250\n00:10:49.520 --> 00:10:52.320\nWell, we're learning now, right?\n\n251\n00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.830\nIt's not as they say worse than that, David, because we have unbelievable good\n\n252\n00:10:56.830 --> 00:10:57.600\npeople.\n\n253\n00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:02.210\nA lot of people get these jobs getting jobs in an overly, really relevant\n\n254\n00:11:02.210 --> 00:11:03.200\ncompany.\n\n255\n00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:06.280\nYou learn a lot more and a turnaround.\n\n256\n00:11:06.280 --> 00:11:09.880\nSo you learn a lot more running young brands when it was you.\n\n257\n00:11:09.880 --> 00:11:11.880\nTaco Bell is on a performing pizza.\n\n258\n00:11:11.880 --> 00:11:16.200\nIt was on a performing, you know, you have a problem left and right.\n\n259\n00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.560\nYou own too many stores, profit mortgage to low.\n\n260\n00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:20.160\nYou had to renegotiate supply.\n\n261\n00:11:20.160 --> 00:11:23.580\nYou learn more doing that than when you have a successor takes over the job is\n\n262\n00:11:23.580 --> 00:11:24.040\nalready\n\n263\n00:11:24.040 --> 00:11:25.040\nwell run.\n\n264\n00:11:25.040 --> 00:11:26.440\nAnd I always worry about that.\n\n265\n00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.840\nLike, okay, well, have you really been in the box?\n\n266\n00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:32.580\nYou mean, you may be the heavyweight champ in the world, but you didn't have to\n\n267\n00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:33.160\nfight 10\n\n268\n00:11:33.160 --> 00:11:34.160\npeople to get there.\n\n269\n00:11:34.160 --> 00:11:36.840\nIt just kind of inherited.\n\n270\n00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:39.640\nAnd so a lot of these folks, they're learning this way.\n\n271\n00:11:39.640 --> 00:11:41.120\nThey've never had a tough time.\n\n272\n00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.800\nThey've never lost money.\n\n273\n00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:46.200\nThey've never made a bad loan.\n\n274\n00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:49.600\nAnd those things hurt when you do them.\n\n275\n00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:54.840\nI know you don't necessarily see yourself as a fortune teller.\n\n276\n00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.660\nAnd I think I know exactly what your answer is going to be, but I'm going to\n\n277\n00:11:58.660 --> 00:11:59.160\nask you\n\n278\n00:11:59.160 --> 00:12:00.760\nthis anyway.\n\n279\n00:12:00.760 --> 00:12:04.690\nWhat's your gut tell you that our economy is going to be like in the next few\n\n280\n00:12:04.690 --> 00:12:05.280\nyears?\n\n281\n00:12:05.280 --> 00:12:06.280\nYeah.\n\n282\n00:12:06.280 --> 00:12:09.720\nSo I'll tell you, I will answer the question before I do that more for, you\n\n283\n00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:10.320\nknow, how\n\n284\n00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:11.560\nwe think about a little bit.\n\n285\n00:12:11.560 --> 00:12:15.220\nI think the people who listen to podcasts, you really always should be thinking\n\n286\n00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:15.600\nabout,\n\n287\n00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:19.320\nI always say the bookends, almost like worst case, best case, or something\n\n288\n00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:20.160\napproximating\n\n289\n00:12:20.160 --> 00:12:23.900\nthat because you got to prepare for both me running the company since you don't\n\n290\n00:12:23.900 --> 00:12:24.280\nknow\n\n291\n00:12:24.280 --> 00:12:25.280\nthe future.\n\n292\n00:12:25.280 --> 00:12:28.530\nSo you may want to predict that you can try, but you should never say, this is\n\n293\n00:12:28.530 --> 00:12:29.120\nwhat I\n\n294\n00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.040\nthink, and I'm betting my company in that.\n\n295\n00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:37.260\nAnd we have to be prepared for a long extended, no vaccine, 12% unemployment\n\n296\n00:12:37.260 --> 00:12:38.080\nfor multiple\n\n297\n00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:39.080\nyears.\n\n298\n00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:42.290\nAnd how do I continue to serve my client, do a good job, take care of my\n\n299\n00:12:42.290 --> 00:12:43.000\nemployees under\n\n300\n00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:46.360\nthat environment, which is what I plan for and worry about.\n\n301\n00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.160\nAnd then of course, it's the good environment to come out of this thing.\n\n302\n00:12:49.160 --> 00:12:51.800\nSo the big picture, America is amazing.\n\n303\n00:12:51.800 --> 00:12:53.720\nWe will get out of it.\n\n304\n00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:58.320\nThe real question is it, you know, is it a year, a year, 12 months worse before\n\n305\n00:12:58.320 --> 00:12:58.720\nwe start\n\n306\n00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:02.440\ngetting much better, or is it three years, but it's not never.\n\n307\n00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:06.520\nAnd so I think people are kind of overreacting some of these things.\n\n308\n00:13:06.520 --> 00:13:13.170\nBut if I had a guess, if we're going to slog through until next June, call it,\n\n309\n00:13:13.170 --> 00:13:13.760\nyou know,\n\n310\n00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:17.350\nwe're now 10 and a half for 11% unemployment, I'm not sure it's going to get a\n\n311\n00:13:17.350 --> 00:13:17.920\nlot better\n\n312\n00:13:17.920 --> 00:13:19.320\nfor a whole bunch of different reasons.\n\n313\n00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.880\nIt could actually get a little bit worse in the short run.\n\n314\n00:13:21.880 --> 00:13:24.680\nYou know, we don't know how the health crisis is going to unveil.\n\n315\n00:13:24.680 --> 00:13:29.860\nIt's going to look a little bit better, and then then you'll start to see\n\n316\n00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:29.960\nimprovement.\n\n317\n00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:33.740\nAnd of course, put the geopolitical complexity in there, the election, the\n\n318\n00:13:33.740 --> 00:13:34.240\nrelationship with\n\n319\n00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.160\nChina, all those things, emerging markets are going to have a tough time.\n\n320\n00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:39.080\nThey're all going to affect America.\n\n321\n00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:42.760\nAnd so I hope it's better than that.\n\n322\n00:13:42.760 --> 00:13:46.490\nAnd I think the government did a lot of really brave, quick stuff to make it\n\n323\n00:13:46.490 --> 00:13:47.200\nbetter than\n\n324\n00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:48.200\nthat.\n\n325\n00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.200\nI hope it's going to do another round intelligently.\n\n326\n00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:52.400\nBut it's going to be a tough rub still.\n\n327\n00:13:52.400 --> 00:14:03.800\nJamie, I've seen you run your businesses and you have a great gut instinct.\n\n328\n00:14:03.800 --> 00:14:08.480\nAnd you're also very analytical and you go through the process of looking at\n\n329\n00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:09.400\nthe facts.\n\n330\n00:14:09.400 --> 00:14:13.370\nBut when you look at your decision-making process, you know, do you think you\n\n331\n00:14:13.370 --> 00:14:13.880\n're more\n\n332\n00:14:13.880 --> 00:14:15.760\nanalytic led or gut led?\n\n333\n00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:17.720\nFirst of all, I'm a nerd.\n\n334\n00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.280\nI study and read everything.\n\n335\n00:14:20.280 --> 00:14:23.200\nWe work the numbers, the models, the facts.\n\n336\n00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:24.200\nI look at history.\n\n337\n00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:25.960\nI do all of that.\n\n338\n00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.650\nAnd in some ways, it's hard to separate that from your gut because that\n\n339\n00:14:28.650 --> 00:14:29.360\nactually leads\n\n340\n00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:30.360\nto the gut.\n\n341\n00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:34.150\nBut if you analyze what you call gut and people analyze it, it's based upon\n\n342\n00:14:34.150 --> 00:14:35.440\npattern recognition,\n\n343\n00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.240\nthings you've learned, mistakes you've made, and that leads to the gut.\n\n344\n00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.970\nAnd so, but it's really a great question because if you ask me, how many times\n\n345\n00:14:43.970 --> 00:14:44.320\ndo I\n\n346\n00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.560\nguess at a decision very rarely?\n\n347\n00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:49.520\nI always say sometimes the good answer is a way to be found.\n\n348\n00:14:49.520 --> 00:14:53.180\nAnd the way to be found, you work with the right people in the room over and\n\n349\n00:14:53.180 --> 00:14:53.640\nover.\n\n350\n00:14:53.640 --> 00:14:55.040\nNow, somebody can do quick.\n\n351\n00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.600\nSome take a little bit longer.\n\n352\n00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.760\nYou should take more time on what Jeff Bezos calls the one door.\n\n353\n00:14:59.760 --> 00:15:01.920\nWhen you go into the window, you can't go back.\n\n354\n00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:02.920\nI deal with more.\n\n355\n00:15:02.920 --> 00:15:04.920\nAnd that's people decisions, search, strategic decisions.\n\n356\n00:15:04.920 --> 00:15:06.320\nA lot of them, you go back.\n\n357\n00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:07.320\nYou can test and learn.\n\n358\n00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:08.320\nIt doesn't work.\n\n359\n00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:09.320\nYou try something else.\n\n360\n00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:11.520\nAnd so some of you make quicker or let people make their own gut.\n\n361\n00:15:11.520 --> 00:15:15.960\nAnd the other thing is, as you know, you can't make all decisions yourself.\n\n362\n00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:17.960\nEven if I could, I shouldn't.\n\n363\n00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:21.500\nI know I've got to let people do it and let them learn how to get in that\n\n364\n00:15:21.500 --> 00:15:22.200\nboxing ring\n\n365\n00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:23.640\nand stuff like that.\n\n366\n00:15:23.640 --> 00:15:27.980\nSo, so I tell you, I tell you, in some ways more add a little than people think\n\n367\n00:15:27.980 --> 00:15:28.360\n.\n\n368\n00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:30.480\nI've offered this to you and you've turned me down.\n\n369\n00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.480\nI wanted to be your campaign manager.\n\n370\n00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:34.960\nI wanted you to run for president of the United States.\n\n371\n00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:38.440\nBut you know, it doesn't seem to be in your future, at least for the moment.\n\n372\n00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:43.570\nBut if you were president, if you were president, what kind of leadership would\n\n373\n00:15:43.570 --> 00:15:44.400\nyou try to bring\n\n374\n00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:45.400\nto this country?\n\n375\n00:15:45.400 --> 00:15:49.000\nFirst of all, I think you should always have great people around you.\n\n376\n00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:50.800\nYou know, expertise is important.\n\n377\n00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:55.320\nYou know, you and I know that you can't do anything intelligent by yourself.\n\n378\n00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.440\nAnd you really need to have with domestic or foreign policy like that.\n\n379\n00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.800\nI think, I think it's very important we have growth strategies in America.\n\n380\n00:16:02.800 --> 00:16:04.600\nWe have democratic or republican.\n\n381\n00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:06.480\nGrow the economy.\n\n382\n00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.120\nAnd so you have regulations, taxation, capital, all the other kind.\n\n383\n00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:12.520\nAnd then of course, you can tax wealthier people.\n\n384\n00:16:12.520 --> 00:16:15.120\nBut I always have to look, you're growing in 3%.\n\n385\n00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.680\nThere's a lot more to go around for everybody.\n\n386\n00:16:17.680 --> 00:16:21.200\nAnd then you can easily, more easily pay for social safety nets, etc.\n\n387\n00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.280\nI think we've become really bad at public policy.\n\n388\n00:16:24.280 --> 00:16:25.280\nInfrastructure is not good.\n\n389\n00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:27.680\nYou know, we don't have what I would call smart regulations.\n\n390\n00:16:27.680 --> 00:16:30.000\nAlways more or less.\n\n391\n00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.480\nOur healthcare system is too many people uninsured.\n\n392\n00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.430\nBut we have some of the best in the world which you and I have been in\n\n393\n00:16:35.430 --> 00:16:36.680\nfisheries of.\n\n394\n00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:38.480\nWe also have 40 million uninsured.\n\n395\n00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.320\nAnd we spend twice as much daily countries.\n\n396\n00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.040\nAnd we don't have twice the outcomes.\n\n397\n00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:43.040\nSo there are all these things.\n\n398\n00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:44.680\nWe just done a bad job.\n\n399\n00:16:44.680 --> 00:16:46.280\nWe don't teach nutrition in high schools.\n\n400\n00:16:46.280 --> 00:16:48.400\nWe don't have sports teams in inner cities.\n\n401\n00:16:48.400 --> 00:16:51.680\nEducation in the cities are leaving generations of kids buying.\n\n402\n00:16:51.680 --> 00:16:53.080\nAnd we should fix those things.\n\n403\n00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:54.840\nThose are that democratic republicans.\n\n404\n00:16:54.840 --> 00:17:01.720\nAnd then foreign policy, I think a strong America economically is critical for\n\n405\n00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:02.680\nthe military.\n\n406\n00:17:02.680 --> 00:17:05.120\nIt's critical for American foreign policy.\n\n407\n00:17:05.120 --> 00:17:09.680\nAnd we should work very closely with the allies in Europe and Japan to form\n\n408\n00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.360\nproper trading\n\n409\n00:17:11.360 --> 00:17:15.320\nstructures, military structures, defense structures together.\n\n410\n00:17:15.320 --> 00:17:17.360\nYou have to compromise a little bit.\n\n411\n00:17:17.360 --> 00:17:20.380\nI think there are a lot of flaws with the ones who replace, but they are better\n\n412\n00:17:20.380 --> 00:17:20.640\n.\n\n413\n00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.400\nAnd then not against China.\n\n414\n00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.440\nBut you know, I have China join, but we think it's the right trading system.\n\n415\n00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:29.560\nAnd you know, there may be a little decoupling from that Soviet.\n\n416\n00:17:29.560 --> 00:17:32.360\nRight now we've got so much fighting going on between everybody.\n\n417\n00:17:32.360 --> 00:17:35.000\nI'm not sure it's great for the international system.\n\n418\n00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:36.000\nYeah.\n\n419\n00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.130\nYou know, I'd love to hear Jamie, how as a leader you'd go about addressing the\n\n420\n00:17:40.130 --> 00:17:40.640\nincome\n\n421\n00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.440\ngap we have in America.\n\n422\n00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:43.680\nIs there an answer to this?\n\n423\n00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:44.680\nYeah.\n\n424\n00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:46.160\nI mean, there's I think there are multiple answers.\n\n425\n00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:47.160\nAnd I think it's real.\n\n426\n00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:48.960\nAnd of course the racial gap is real.\n\n427\n00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:50.600\nAnd it's been there for 150 years.\n\n428\n00:17:50.600 --> 00:17:51.600\nSo this is like new.\n\n429\n00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:54.960\nYou know, and damn it, we haven't done a good job.\n\n430\n00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:58.280\nYou know, we started with the 40 acres of fuel for the black community.\n\n431\n00:17:58.280 --> 00:17:59.640\nWe never finished it.\n\n432\n00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:01.160\nThat we meant to give opportunity.\n\n433\n00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:06.840\nSo, so a model of education and the health of them is the in the inner city to\n\n434\n00:18:06.840 --> 00:18:07.400\nget these\n\n435\n00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:08.920\nkids good paying jobs.\n\n436\n00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:09.920\nIt's been done.\n\n437\n00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.440\nIt's been done around the world.\n\n438\n00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:13.320\nThere are apprenticeship programs, internship programs.\n\n439\n00:18:13.320 --> 00:18:15.800\nYou need business to be more involved.\n\n440\n00:18:15.800 --> 00:18:18.000\nThat's one affordable housing to be another.\n\n441\n00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.000\nBut I also be.\n\n442\n00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.920\nThere's a thing called the Earned Income Tax Credit.\n\n443\n00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:25.420\nSo if you're making $14,000 a year as a single mother with two children, the\n\n444\n00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:26.160\ngovernment\n\n445\n00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.440\ngives you $6,000.\n\n446\n00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:31.240\nAnd you know, supposedly bring up to more of a living wage.\n\n447\n00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:33.280\nI would, I would double that.\n\n448\n00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:35.400\nAnd both Democrats and Republicans like it.\n\n449\n00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:40.370\nSo job bring dignity, get people in workforce, people enter the workforce tend\n\n450\n00:18:40.370 --> 00:18:41.080\nto stay, and\n\n451\n00:18:41.080 --> 00:18:42.440\nthey tend to start to move up the ladder.\n\n452\n00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:47.720\nSo if you have a $22,000 a year job, you know, in 10 years, it could be $55,000\n\n453\n00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:48.840\nand $75,000.\n\n454\n00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:54.050\nAnd so I would, I would have jobs paying more even if we had a negative income\n\n455\n00:18:54.050 --> 00:18:55.000\ntax or something.\n\n456\n00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:58.870\nI think it'd be better for growth, better for society, you have better social\n\n457\n00:18:58.870 --> 00:18:59.560\noutcomes,\n\n458\n00:18:59.560 --> 00:19:01.400\nchange the taxes a little bit.\n\n459\n00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.680\nI would have a very competitive business tax system.\n\n460\n00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.760\nI think it's a mistake to hurt business taxation, etc.\n\n461\n00:19:08.760 --> 00:19:13.060\nAnd then, you know, then if you have to tax people who are wealthy, and that\n\n462\n00:19:13.060 --> 00:19:13.720\ndoes not slow\n\n463\n00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:18.080\ndown growth, hurting businesses, that slows down growth.\n\n464\n00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:23.000\nAnd so I would have a growth strategy around regulation, taxation, etc.\n\n465\n00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:24.920\nAnd you'll have higher growth.\n\n466\n00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:28.530\nAmerica, and I really do believe this should have been growing 3% a year, last\n\n467\n00:19:28.530 --> 00:19:29.360\n10 or 12\n\n468\n00:19:29.360 --> 00:19:31.000\nyears, not two.\n\n469\n00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.520\nThat 1% difference is a huge amount of GDP.\n\n470\n00:19:34.520 --> 00:19:37.400\nI think it would have been $4 trillion higher.\n\n471\n00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.920\nThat means tax collection would have been another $2.5 higher.\n\n472\n00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:41.920\nOkay?\n\n473\n00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.160\nThe GDP per household would have been far bigger.\n\n474\n00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.200\nAnd that pays for more, you know?\n\n475\n00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:52.120\nAnd by our safety net, and these big big two, as so many flaws, and it actually\n\n476\n00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:53.000\nhurts some\n\n477\n00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:54.080\nof the lower income people.\n\n478\n00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:58.520\nSo my biggest complaint would be good pause will get us there.\n\n479\n00:19:58.520 --> 00:20:00.920\nIt will not, and business has to be involved.\n\n480\n00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.120\nGovernment can't do it alone, and not that government is bad.\n\n481\n00:20:04.120 --> 00:20:06.040\nGovernment, it just isn't going to move that quick.\n\n482\n00:20:06.040 --> 00:20:08.440\nThey don't have AI, they don't have our technology.\n\n483\n00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.520\nYou know, 80% of the jobs come out of business.\n\n484\n00:20:11.520 --> 00:20:14.630\nSo we should just acknowledge that business should work with civic society,\n\n485\n00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:15.720\nthink of unions,\n\n486\n00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.040\nhospitals, schools, etc.\n\n487\n00:20:18.040 --> 00:20:21.000\nAnd with government, and working together, we can fix this thing.\n\n488\n00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.200\nHating each other is just really hard to do.\n\n489\n00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:25.800\nThe other big issue, and you brought it up, is health care.\n\n490\n00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:29.520\nAnd I know you don't necessarily have the answer on how to solve this.\n\n491\n00:20:29.520 --> 00:20:34.180\nBut I think what would be interesting is for you to share, if I was a president\n\n492\n00:20:34.180 --> 00:20:34.600\nof the\n\n493\n00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:38.370\nUnited States, and I said, \"Hey, Jamie, I want you to solve health care for our\n\n494\n00:20:38.370 --> 00:20:39.080\ncountry.\"\n\n495\n00:20:39.080 --> 00:20:40.080\nOkay?\n\n496\n00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:41.680\nHow would you go about doing it?\n\n497\n00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:45.150\nHow would you think as a leader, and what would you do to get to the right\n\n498\n00:20:45.150 --> 00:20:45.760\nanswer?\n\n499\n00:20:45.760 --> 00:20:46.760\nYeah.\n\n500\n00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:50.690\nSo if you were president, I would take the job by the way, because I would work\n\n501\n00:20:50.690 --> 00:20:51.320\nfor people\n\n502\n00:20:51.320 --> 00:20:55.800\nto respect, and for the first is just to find the problem, like literally to\n\n503\n00:20:55.800 --> 00:20:57.320\nfind the problem.\n\n504\n00:20:57.320 --> 00:20:58.840\nAnd so we know it's too expensive.\n\n505\n00:20:58.840 --> 00:21:00.760\nWe know 40 million people are insured.\n\n506\n00:21:00.760 --> 00:21:02.560\nWe know there's no transparency.\n\n507\n00:21:02.560 --> 00:21:03.560\nWe don't teach wellness.\n\n508\n00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:08.510\nOBCs become, you know, General Ordiano told me that 70% of the kids who apply\n\n509\n00:21:08.510 --> 00:21:08.640\nto get\n\n510\n00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.560\nin the military can't get in because they either can't read or write whether\n\n511\n00:21:12.560 --> 00:21:13.240\nobese.\n\n512\n00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:19.400\nAnd obesity drives heart disease, depression, cancer, stroke.\n\n513\n00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.200\nAnd so we acknowledge the problem.\n\n514\n00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:24.920\nGet the people who are involved in to acknowledge the problem.\n\n515\n00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:29.000\nNow, I would form a group of people, not just experts, academic, but\n\n516\n00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:29.920\npractitioners,\n\n517\n00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:31.680\nhospitals, doctors.\n\n518\n00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.160\nAnd then I would come up with solutions for each one of those things, you know?\n\n519\n00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:36.160\nHow would we do transparency?\n\n520\n00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:38.080\nHow would we do the dogboat programs?\n\n521\n00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:41.600\nHow would we, like, insurance, if you have an insurance, why should we be\n\n522\n00:21:41.600 --> 00:21:42.400\nnationwide,\n\n523\n00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:43.640\nnot by state?\n\n524\n00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:46.040\nWe should have had medical malpractice performed.\n\n525\n00:21:46.040 --> 00:21:49.360\nWe should be teaching nutrition and exercise in K to 12.\n\n526\n00:21:49.360 --> 00:21:51.200\nLike, you know, we all taught our own kids.\n\n527\n00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.400\nThey don't teach in these schools anymore.\n\n528\n00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.040\nAnd then I'd go to you as the president and say, \"Here's what we should do.\n\n529\n00:21:57.040 --> 00:21:59.040\nYou have to make the political choices.\"\n\n530\n00:21:59.040 --> 00:22:02.720\nBut I wouldn't bastardize, you know, what you should do.\n\n531\n00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.530\nWhat often happens in decision-making is you bastardize the decision before it\n\n532\n00:22:06.530 --> 00:22:07.160\neven gets\n\n533\n00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:08.160\nto the person.\n\n534\n00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:12.320\nSo you might say, \"Jamie, I can't do A, I can't do B, I can't do C, but I get D\n\n535\n00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:12.960\n, E,\n\n536\n00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:13.960\nand F done.\n\n537\n00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:14.960\nHelp me get that done.\"\n\n538\n00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:15.960\nAnd then you say, \"Yes, sir.\n\n539\n00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:16.960\nLet's go get them.\"\n\n540\n00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.800\nLet's make it better than it was before.\n\n541\n00:22:18.800 --> 00:22:20.760\nThat just makes too much common sense.\n\n542\n00:22:20.760 --> 00:22:25.440\nThat's why I can't be able to do a job.\n\n543\n00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:26.440\nI don't know about that.\n\n544\n00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:28.680\nBut anyway, we just mentioned health.\n\n545\n00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:31.810\nAnd, you know, I have to, because I know everybody would want me to ask, \"Does\n\n546\n00:22:31.810 --> 00:22:32.280\nsomeone\n\n547\n00:22:32.280 --> 00:22:34.120\nask you about your own health?\"\n\n548\n00:22:34.120 --> 00:22:38.280\nYou and I both had cancer a few years ago, and then you've recently had this\n\n549\n00:22:38.280 --> 00:22:39.720\nheart attack.\n\n550\n00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:41.520\nI know you're listening to you right now.\n\n551\n00:22:41.520 --> 00:22:42.520\nYou're back at it.\n\n552\n00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:43.680\nYou are the Jamie Diamond.\n\n553\n00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:44.920\nIt's always the Jamie Diamond.\n\n554\n00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:46.600\nI know anyway.\n\n555\n00:22:46.600 --> 00:22:51.830\nBut how have these events, these life events impacted your outlook on life and\n\n556\n00:22:51.830 --> 00:22:52.760\nbusiness?\n\n557\n00:22:52.760 --> 00:22:53.760\nYeah.\n\n558\n00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:55.520\nYou're still adjusting to it.\n\n559\n00:22:55.520 --> 00:22:59.600\nThe way my mind works, I kind of delay my reaction to something like that.\n\n560\n00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:02.960\nAnd for the audience, I had the call an aortic dissection.\n\n561\n00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.760\nThey've replaced parts of my heart.\n\n562\n00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:09.480\nAnd I usually could have died and I knew that going into the operating room.\n\n563\n00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.700\nAnd I always tell people, \"I really mean, take care of your mind, your body,\n\n564\n00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:13.280\nyour spirit,\n\n565\n00:23:13.280 --> 00:23:14.960\nyour soul, your friends, and your family.\"\n\n566\n00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:18.160\nI tell them, \"Boy, we can't do all that, we can help you.\"\n\n567\n00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.200\nAnd one lesson from my thing, by the way, I called my doctor right after that.\n\n568\n00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:23.200\nI felt my heart rate.\n\n569\n00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:25.360\nI mean, this was not like maybe.\n\n570\n00:23:25.360 --> 00:23:28.200\nI knew something was devastatingly wrong.\n\n571\n00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:30.760\nHe not answered my phone call at 5.50 in the morning.\n\n572\n00:23:30.760 --> 00:23:32.440\nI knocked out of the hospital.\n\n573\n00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:34.680\nHe knocked out of the heart doctor in there.\n\n574\n00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.040\nI went to make it.\n\n575\n00:23:36.040 --> 00:23:38.530\nAnd so, you know, I tell people to be prepared, like if something goes wrong,\n\n576\n00:23:38.530 --> 00:23:39.120\nlike, \"What\n\n577\n00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:40.120\ndo you do?\n\n578\n00:23:40.120 --> 00:23:41.120\nWho's going to take care of the kids?\n\n579\n00:23:41.120 --> 00:23:42.120\nWho's going to stay home?\n\n580\n00:23:42.120 --> 00:23:43.120\nWhat half of you go to?\"\n\n581\n00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:46.360\nBecause you can have anyone for, you know, it could be a Foley knife.\n\n582\n00:23:46.360 --> 00:23:49.360\nIt could be a heart attack or a stroke or something like that.\n\n583\n00:23:49.360 --> 00:23:51.560\nSo, be a little prepared.\n\n584\n00:23:51.560 --> 00:23:54.400\nBut it doesn't, it didn't change.\n\n585\n00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:58.360\nI felt good about literally going, I told my wife, going in.\n\n586\n00:23:58.360 --> 00:24:01.000\nI felt good about everything I'd done in life.\n\n587\n00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:06.160\nI didn't feel like regrets or I felt that I loved my family in good position in\n\n588\n00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:06.560\nmany\n\n589\n00:24:06.560 --> 00:24:07.840\ndifferent ways.\n\n590\n00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:12.440\nAnd so, I wasn't going to go out feeling unhappy about it, obviously dying 64\n\n591\n00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:13.080\nor being unhappy.\n\n592\n00:24:13.080 --> 00:24:17.920\nBut when I obviously were covering, I like purpose in life.\n\n593\n00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:19.520\nI think it's good to have a purpose in life.\n\n594\n00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:23.590\nAnd my purpose can't be to play golf or to, you know, sniff the flowers and\n\n595\n00:24:23.590 --> 00:24:24.280\nstuff like\n\n596\n00:24:24.280 --> 00:24:25.280\nthat.\n\n597\n00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:27.200\nI like to travel, but I love what I do.\n\n598\n00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:31.520\nI work with people and customers and employees and kids in the black community.\n\n599\n00:24:31.520 --> 00:24:33.320\nAnd I talk to the human people.\n\n600\n00:24:33.320 --> 00:24:34.320\nI talk to the politicians.\n\n601\n00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:35.520\nAnd I like it.\n\n602\n00:24:35.520 --> 00:24:37.200\nI'm trying to make it a better world.\n\n603\n00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.800\nThis is my contribution as best as I can to the world.\n\n604\n00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:43.560\nAnd I want to do that pretty much until the day I die.\n\n605\n00:24:43.560 --> 00:24:45.920\nAnd one day I'll do something like what you're doing is teaching.\n\n606\n00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:46.920\nI love to do that too.\n\n607\n00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:48.680\nI love to talk to kids and colleges.\n\n608\n00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.550\nAnd I let you know, one of my favorite conversations with other CEOs is how do\n\n609\n00:24:52.550 --> 00:24:53.760\nyou run your joint?\n\n610\n00:24:53.760 --> 00:24:54.760\nHow do you run it?\n\n611\n00:24:54.760 --> 00:24:58.280\nI still use that trick you gave me since we last met at the board.\n\n612\n00:24:58.280 --> 00:25:01.440\nHow do you do, because you learn so much from other people.\n\n613\n00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:04.640\nSo having a purpose life makes me feel good.\n\n614\n00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:06.520\nAnd I can't give my all.\n\n615\n00:25:06.520 --> 00:25:08.080\nI shouldn't have the job.\n\n616\n00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:11.360\nI tell you this isn't not a job, but you can retire in place.\n\n617\n00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:12.360\nYou give it 100%.\n\n618\n00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:16.690\nAnd you can't give it to somebody else and help them in transition period or\n\n619\n00:25:16.690 --> 00:25:17.520\nsomething.\n\n620\n00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:19.520\nBut let them go do the job.\n\n621\n00:25:19.520 --> 00:25:25.280\nSo the only thing that sickness has changed a little bit is this thing about my\n\n622\n00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:25.800\nmind is\n\n623\n00:25:25.800 --> 00:25:29.920\nmuch less like everyone knows they're going to die.\n\n624\n00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:34.120\nBut believe it or not, you really don't know until you've had something like\n\n625\n00:25:34.120 --> 00:25:34.240\nthis.\n\n626\n00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:36.480\nIt's faced right up here.\n\n627\n00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.520\nSo now, I'm sure you're probably the same thing.\n\n628\n00:25:38.520 --> 00:25:41.040\nYou don't assume it's going to go on forever.\n\n629\n00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:42.800\nYou know, it can happen.\n\n630\n00:25:42.800 --> 00:25:44.640\nYou know, it can happen.\n\n631\n00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:49.280\nBut when someone says you have cancer and it's like a punch in the face.\n\n632\n00:25:49.280 --> 00:25:55.210\nAnd so I used the word, I got this from Julia Baird who wrote a book, but she's\n\n633\n00:25:55.210 --> 00:25:56.000\nusually\n\n634\n00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.000\nused the word deliver.\n\n635\n00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:58.640\nShe had multiple bouts of cancer.\n\n636\n00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.640\nAnd then you just live more deliberately.\n\n637\n00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.040\nBut in my job, you can't only do things you like.\n\n638\n00:26:03.040 --> 00:26:04.640\nSo I'm not going to do that.\n\n639\n00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:06.160\nI have to do those things.\n\n640\n00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.160\nBut you live deliberately.\n\n641\n00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:08.680\nWhat do you want to do?\n\n642\n00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:09.680\nWhy are you doing it?\n\n643\n00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:10.680\nHow are you thoughtful?\n\n644\n00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.920\nSo I did make a bunch of changes, but I tried to exercise almost every day.\n\n645\n00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:17.080\nI tried to take care of myself and all of that.\n\n646\n00:26:17.080 --> 00:26:18.080\nBut purposely purpose.\n\n647\n00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:20.760\nI mean, work is purpose.\n\n648\n00:26:20.760 --> 00:26:22.720\nFighting for something is a purpose.\n\n649\n00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.080\nYou fight for good.\n\n650\n00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:25.440\nThere's no question about that.\n\n651\n00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:31.960\nAnd right now with our economy, small businesses are in deep, deep trouble.\n\n652\n00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:36.020\nHow are you taking a leading role, trying to find the best way to keep them up\n\n653\n00:26:36.020 --> 00:26:37.120\nand running?\n\n654\n00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:39.320\nBecause they're the lifeblood of our country.\n\n655\n00:26:39.320 --> 00:26:40.320\nYeah.\n\n656\n00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:44.000\nSo when I was getting out of the hospital, I only had functioning.\n\n657\n00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:46.960\nLike they'd already done PPP.\n\n658\n00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:50.920\nAnd I was so impressed with our government in two or three weeks.\n\n659\n00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:54.120\nThe department, you can criticize it all you want.\n\n660\n00:26:54.120 --> 00:26:57.500\nBut I've seen Secretary of the Nutrients since then I think he's done an\n\n661\n00:26:57.500 --> 00:26:58.080\nextraordinary\n\n662\n00:26:58.080 --> 00:27:00.400\njob on all the Fed programs.\n\n663\n00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:02.440\nAnd again, you could have sized the things.\n\n664\n00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:03.920\nI would have done it differently.\n\n665\n00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.770\nYou know, of course, you and I can't come up with a program in three weeks that\n\n666\n00:27:07.770 --> 00:27:08.160\ndoesn't\n\n667\n00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:09.160\nhave flaws.\n\n668\n00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:11.700\nAnd they by the correct in some of the flaws, which also signed very good\n\n669\n00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:12.360\nmanagement.\n\n670\n00:27:12.360 --> 00:27:13.360\nI got it.\n\n671\n00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:14.960\nI understand it's supposed to deny it.\n\n672\n00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.760\nAnd we think though that PPP probably kept 30 million people in jobs.\n\n673\n00:27:18.760 --> 00:27:20.360\nNow, I can't prove that.\n\n674\n00:27:20.360 --> 00:27:22.560\nYou know, we have data that can kind of justify it.\n\n675\n00:27:22.560 --> 00:27:27.960\nBut we have to keep small businesses alive to get them over the hurdle.\n\n676\n00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:29.600\nSome may not make it any way, by the way.\n\n677\n00:27:29.600 --> 00:27:31.880\nBut at least you've given them a chance to make it.\n\n678\n00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:35.190\nAnd you know the restaurant business, well, the restaurants are really\n\n679\n00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:35.920\nstruggling.\n\n680\n00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.120\nAnd so they have the right thing.\n\n681\n00:27:38.120 --> 00:27:40.120\nNow we're, the government's talking about another program.\n\n682\n00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:43.270\nSo we're in touch with them about what we think works and what doesn't work at\n\n683\n00:27:43.270 --> 00:27:43.440\na very\n\n684\n00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:44.680\nkind of a technical level.\n\n685\n00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:48.460\nWhich forms you have to have with documents that have, you know, who relies on\n\n686\n00:27:48.460 --> 00:27:49.440\nwho statements,\n\n687\n00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:52.920\nyou know, banks can't go audit everything that some of that.\n\n688\n00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:54.640\nSo you don't have the ability to do that.\n\n689\n00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:56.980\nSo you have to rely on the statements, small business, you know what I'm saying\n\n690\n00:27:56.980 --> 00:27:57.200\n?\n\n691\n00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:58.920\nI am using this money for payroll.\n\n692\n00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:00.360\nI am using this money for rent.\n\n693\n00:28:00.360 --> 00:28:04.700\nBut you're going to have to have another round for another bunch and the Fed\n\n694\n00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:05.200\nhas a bunch\n\n695\n00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:06.200\nof programs out there.\n\n696\n00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:08.840\nSo I think in general they're doing the right stuff.\n\n697\n00:28:08.840 --> 00:28:09.840\nGood.\n\n698\n00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:11.760\nIn general we need another round.\n\n699\n00:28:11.760 --> 00:28:13.440\nAnd we also have to get back to work.\n\n700\n00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.940\nThere's this notion that somehow we can not be back at work and that you're not\n\n701\n00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:17.320\ngoing\n\n702\n00:28:17.320 --> 00:28:20.800\nto have an economy that gets kind of consistently worse.\n\n703\n00:28:20.800 --> 00:28:23.480\nAnd that would be worse for the health of Americans.\n\n704\n00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:28.360\nDepression, drinking, drugs, crime.\n\n705\n00:28:28.360 --> 00:28:32.690\nWe know one thing about the economy, that unemployment is a bad thing for the\n\n706\n00:28:32.690 --> 00:28:33.240\nhealth\n\n707\n00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:34.240\nof Americans.\n\n708\n00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:38.440\nAnd then people lose their skills, the capital stock gets worse.\n\n709\n00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.720\nSo you know, we got to keep pushing this thing until we get out.\n\n710\n00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:43.040\nI couldn't agree more.\n\n711\n00:28:43.040 --> 00:28:48.440\nYou know, and our country has also had the crisis that was ignited by the\n\n712\n00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:49.480\ntragic death\n\n713\n00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:51.800\nof George Floyd.\n\n714\n00:28:51.800 --> 00:28:56.890\nHow are you addressing racial justice and diversity and inclusion at JPMorgan\n\n715\n00:28:56.890 --> 00:28:57.560\nChase?\n\n716\n00:28:57.560 --> 00:29:00.160\nYeah, you know, again, so that's another one.\n\n717\n00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.800\nSo COVID showed that all the inequities in society, but they were already there\n\n718\n00:29:03.800 --> 00:29:04.040\n.\n\n719\n00:29:04.040 --> 00:29:05.600\nThat was true in the great recession.\n\n720\n00:29:05.600 --> 00:29:08.840\nIt's true in every recession that the poor people suffer more and a lot of the\n\n721\n00:29:08.840 --> 00:29:09.720\npoor minorities.\n\n722\n00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:13.200\nThe murder of George Floyd, we've already known about this stuff.\n\n723\n00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:15.960\nAnd my view is we got to double down and fix it.\n\n724\n00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:21.440\nSo the BRT, JP Morgan, a lot of companies are doing much more work.\n\n725\n00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.660\nAnd we've started this program called Advancing Black Kelly's before the murder\n\n726\n00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:25.440\nof George Floyd\n\n727\n00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:31.590\nabout affordable housing, financing small businesses, lending to special types\n\n728\n00:29:31.590 --> 00:29:33.120\nof mortgages, training\n\n729\n00:29:33.120 --> 00:29:36.000\nprograms for inner city school kids.\n\n730\n00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:40.770\nAnd all of us have to just double down and come up with the policies, the rules\n\n731\n00:29:40.770 --> 00:29:41.200\n, the\n\n732\n00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.880\ntargets that make sense because this has gone on for two-frigging long.\n\n733\n00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.480\nAnd I'm gratified that the American public recognizes it.\n\n734\n00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:50.440\nAnd they've totally changed my mind about this.\n\n735\n00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:53.300\nAnd David, one of the beautiful things, you know, when we all had each other's\n\n736\n00:29:53.300 --> 00:29:53.760\nthroat,\n\n737\n00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:58.360\nat seven o'clock PM every day in New York, if you stick your head outside a\n\n738\n00:29:58.360 --> 00:29:59.360\nwindow, you're\n\n739\n00:29:59.360 --> 00:30:03.320\ngoing to hear hundreds of thousands of people clapping and banging pans and\n\n740\n00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:03.980\nyelling and\n\n741\n00:30:03.980 --> 00:30:09.470\ncheering as all in support of the essential workers, the nurses, the doctors,\n\n742\n00:30:09.470 --> 00:30:10.440\nthe sanitation\n\n743\n00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.560\nworkers, that's the spirit we need.\n\n744\n00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:17.360\nWhat can we do to help America at this point, not just ourselves sometimes?\n\n745\n00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:21.140\nAnd so we have the BRT's and Ron's really interesting stuff about racially\n\n746\n00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:21.840\nquality.\n\n747\n00:30:21.840 --> 00:30:25.700\nI think that is now is the time to, whatever we've done in the past, a lot of\n\n748\n00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:26.360\ncourse is\n\n749\n00:30:26.360 --> 00:30:27.360\ndone, a lot of good stuff.\n\n750\n00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:28.760\nThe knowledge is not enough.\n\n751\n00:30:28.760 --> 00:30:29.760\nWe've got to do more.\n\n752\n00:30:29.760 --> 00:30:31.160\nWe've got to figure out where to make it work better.\n\n753\n00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:35.040\nAnd it'll be better for all society too, if we get that done.\n\n754\n00:30:35.040 --> 00:30:38.510\nBRT, you're talking about the business roundtable for our listeners out there,\n\n755\n00:30:38.510 --> 00:30:39.200\nyou know, and\n\n756\n00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:43.870\nyou've really led the charge in trying to get business to be more responsible\n\n757\n00:30:43.870 --> 00:30:44.480\nin every\n\n758\n00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:45.480\nway.\n\n759\n00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.160\nYou know, a lot of people say, oh, the BRT's come out with this statement.\n\n760\n00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:51.080\nIt's just some fluff.\n\n761\n00:30:51.080 --> 00:30:52.080\nIs this real?\n\n762\n00:30:52.080 --> 00:30:54.400\nDo you think companies are genuinely changing?\n\n763\n00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:55.400\nYeah.\n\n764\n00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:58.400\nI mean, first of all, I think someone already done it.\n\n765\n00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:01.400\nSo the notion that these bigger companies weren't good.\n\n766\n00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:03.800\nThey already took very good care of employees.\n\n767\n00:31:03.800 --> 00:31:07.230\nThey paid them well, they trained them well, they had healthcare, they had\n\n768\n00:31:07.230 --> 00:31:08.440\nemotional programs,\n\n769\n00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:10.360\npeople had emotional problems.\n\n770\n00:31:10.360 --> 00:31:15.200\nSo the notion that we weren't good, the group could be said, that wasn't true.\n\n771\n00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:19.600\nBut what is true is that the corporate purpose that had been the business round\n\n772\n00:31:19.600 --> 00:31:20.280\ntable had\n\n773\n00:31:20.280 --> 00:31:22.480\na primacy of shareholder value.\n\n774\n00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.360\nAnd then we were seeing to the board of the business roundtable, the first\n\n775\n00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:26.040\nthing you think\n\n776\n00:31:26.040 --> 00:31:28.480\nabout is your customer.\n\n777\n00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:30.680\nYou better take care of the customer.\n\n778\n00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:31.680\nDo a good job.\n\n779\n00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:33.480\nAnd of course, you better that your employee.\n\n780\n00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:36.960\nSo I don't know, any CEO who comes in and says shareholder value, they say,\n\n781\n00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:37.600\nwell, what\n\n782\n00:31:37.600 --> 00:31:40.270\nare your technology, what are your systems, who are your customers, who are\n\n783\n00:31:40.270 --> 00:31:41.000\nyour employees?\n\n784\n00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.400\nAnd of course, you are a good community citizen.\n\n785\n00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:45.520\nSo all the companies believe that.\n\n786\n00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:47.080\nWe change the wording.\n\n787\n00:31:47.080 --> 00:31:49.600\nWe can demonstrate all the stuff we already do.\n\n788\n00:31:49.600 --> 00:31:51.800\nAnd yeah, a lot of companies want to do more.\n\n789\n00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:56.330\nThe most complex one, David, is the corporate responsibility one, the community\n\n790\n00:31:56.330 --> 00:31:57.480\nresponsibility.\n\n791\n00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:01.240\nAnd that one, I'm going to give you two examples that they're both important.\n\n792\n00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:02.920\nOne is hard to understand the other.\n\n793\n00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:06.960\nBut if you ran just one store, you're part of the community.\n\n794\n00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:10.240\nYou take the ice off the funds to the little ladies and break or lay.\n\n795\n00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.800\nYou probably participate in religious institutions locally, the little league.\n\n796\n00:32:13.800 --> 00:32:17.000\nIf you make food, you probably drop off the excess food at a homeless shelf or\n\n797\n00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:17.520\nsomething\n\n798\n00:32:17.520 --> 00:32:18.520\naway at home.\n\n799\n00:32:18.520 --> 00:32:19.520\nYou participate.\n\n800\n00:32:19.520 --> 00:32:20.520\nThat's called humanity.\n\n801\n00:32:20.520 --> 00:32:22.520\nYour community is better for you.\n\n802\n00:32:22.520 --> 00:32:24.280\nThis is better for you.\n\n803\n00:32:24.280 --> 00:32:26.840\nPeople have smiles on their faces.\n\n804\n00:32:26.840 --> 00:32:31.120\nThe other one is I'm going to say is macro corporate responsibility.\n\n805\n00:32:31.120 --> 00:32:33.360\nAnd that one is more about what I say is public policy.\n\n806\n00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:36.000\nIt's more diffuse, like what do you mean?\n\n807\n00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.790\nBut I think CEOs should spend more time on getting good public policy, not just\n\n808\n00:32:39.790 --> 00:32:40.320\nfighting\n\n809\n00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:44.580\nfor something that's good for them like it's tax break, but infrastructure,\n\n810\n00:32:44.580 --> 00:32:45.480\nimmigration,\n\n811\n00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:50.240\nproper regulation, not more or less, smart regulation, health care.\n\n812\n00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:54.280\nAll these things, if we did a better job and we grew faster to the country,\n\n813\n00:32:54.280 --> 00:32:54.640\neveryone\n\n814\n00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.640\nwould be better off.\n\n815\n00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:58.560\nAnd of course, the rich would be even better off because they own a lot of the\n\n816\n00:32:58.560 --> 00:32:59.360\ncountry.\n\n817\n00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:02.130\nAnd their body's got a place that shouldn't complain if they tax a little bit\n\n818\n00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:02.600\nmore.\n\n819\n00:33:02.600 --> 00:33:06.200\nAnd so my view is that that is an important thing.\n\n820\n00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:09.560\nAnd the CEOs have a lot to offer on those things.\n\n821\n00:33:09.560 --> 00:33:10.560\nHow do you get better infrastructure?\n\n822\n00:33:10.560 --> 00:33:12.840\nAnd you've walked the halls of Congress.\n\n823\n00:33:12.840 --> 00:33:16.440\nThey need help, but not help because they're helpless, help because they don't\n\n824\n00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:16.960\nhave the\n\n825\n00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.520\nexperts always feels.\n\n826\n00:33:18.520 --> 00:33:21.320\nThey a lot want to do the right thing.\n\n827\n00:33:21.320 --> 00:33:23.640\nBut they say, what do you need to do to do this?\n\n828\n00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:25.040\nHow come you can't finance this?\n\n829\n00:33:25.040 --> 00:33:26.040\nHow would you set up?\n\n830\n00:33:26.040 --> 00:33:29.960\nHow can we make these infrastructure things use your pay?\n\n831\n00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:34.840\nAll the differentities have ways we can help the government do a better job.\n\n832\n00:33:34.840 --> 00:33:39.520\nJamie, we've just gone through a lot of big time weighty, weighty issues.\n\n833\n00:33:39.520 --> 00:33:43.760\nAnd do you think it's possible to have fun in business anymore?\n\n834\n00:33:43.760 --> 00:33:44.760\nYeah.\n\n835\n00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:49.840\nI mean, you know, listen, David, our job, my job is like a lot of those parts\n\n836\n00:33:49.840 --> 00:33:50.520\nthat I really\n\n837\n00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:51.640\ndon't like.\n\n838\n00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:53.440\nSometimes it's a bigger part of my job.\n\n839\n00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:54.880\nSo it's a small part of my job.\n\n840\n00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:56.440\nBut generally, I come in happy.\n\n841\n00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:59.080\nI'm exhausted by Friday, you know.\n\n842\n00:33:59.080 --> 00:34:01.680\nBut when I come in Monday, I'm happy to go back to work.\n\n843\n00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:03.320\nAnd I enjoy doing our people, our clients.\n\n844\n00:34:03.320 --> 00:34:04.320\nI miss travel.\n\n845\n00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:05.920\nLike you, I travel the world.\n\n846\n00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:09.920\nI just did a town hall with our folks from India and the Philippines today.\n\n847\n00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.880\nBut I like to say it was I'm sorry, I can't be their person.\n\n848\n00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:14.160\nI just shake your hands.\n\n849\n00:34:14.160 --> 00:34:15.400\nI give them words out.\n\n850\n00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:19.150\nI like to take pictures and have a nice dinner with the man and team and learn\n\n851\n00:34:19.150 --> 00:34:19.800\nwhat's going\n\n852\n00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.280\non in the country and their families.\n\n853\n00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:24.360\nAnd so yeah, for the most part, it's fun.\n\n854\n00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.000\nBut all the jobs can compose a part that's not.\n\n855\n00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.760\nAnd you know, and I, and as much as people think CEOs, you know, my wife says,\n\n856\n00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:31.040\n\"Oh, you\n\n857\n00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:34.000\nsee, oh man, you're always treated well, you get all the accolades.\"\n\n858\n00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.320\nSometimes they, \"Well spend a week with me.\"\n\n859\n00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:37.880\nAnd see what it's like sometimes.\n\n860\n00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.120\nThose parts of the job that aren't that.\n\n861\n00:34:40.120 --> 00:34:43.410\nI think one of the things we both have always loved is, you know, when times\n\n862\n00:34:43.410 --> 00:34:44.200\nare tough or\n\n863\n00:34:44.200 --> 00:34:48.270\nif there's something sick about you as a leader because you actually enjoy\n\n864\n00:34:48.270 --> 00:34:49.000\ngetting in\n\n865\n00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:52.000\nthere, it's kind of like this is when you earn your money, you know.\n\n866\n00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:53.000\nExactly.\n\n867\n00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:54.000\nBut you feel responsible.\n\n868\n00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:55.000\nYeah.\n\n869\n00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.810\nSo I go, when I go around the world and I look at the folks, you know, that we\n\n870\n00:34:58.810 --> 00:34:59.640\n've hired\n\n871\n00:34:59.640 --> 00:35:05.550\nand the kids, it makes me feel so responsible, I want to do my job even better\n\n872\n00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:06.280\nso that I\n\n873\n00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:07.920\ndon't let them down.\n\n874\n00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.000\nJamie, this has been so much fun catching up with you.\n\n875\n00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.520\nAnd I want to have a little bit more before we take off here.\n\n876\n00:35:13.520 --> 00:35:16.560\nI want to do a lightning round of Q&A with you.\n\n877\n00:35:16.560 --> 00:35:17.560\nOkay.\n\n878\n00:35:17.560 --> 00:35:18.560\nOkay.\n\n879\n00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:19.560\nAll right.\n\n880\n00:35:19.560 --> 00:35:21.800\nWhat three words best describe you?\n\n881\n00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:23.800\nDeliberate, fentic, hard.\n\n882\n00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:28.880\nI think I would pick hard.\n\n883\n00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:30.880\nWhat's your biggest pet peeve?\n\n884\n00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:33.720\nBureaucracy politics.\n\n885\n00:35:33.720 --> 00:35:38.880\nIf you could be one person in a world for a day besides you and me, okay?\n\n886\n00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:40.440\nWho would it be?\n\n887\n00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:41.840\nProbably Abe Lincoln.\n\n888\n00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:43.840\nHow come?\n\n889\n00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:50.120\nI think the guy was such an extraordinary human being, a safe dark country.\n\n890\n00:35:50.120 --> 00:35:54.840\nAnd if you read everything he wrote or said, his deliberate thought is how he\n\n891\n00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:56.400\ntreated people.\n\n892\n00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:00.600\nI think he might have been the first president had a black man to lunch.\n\n893\n00:36:00.600 --> 00:36:04.840\nAnd even earlier in political Korea, he talked about how they're equal people.\n\n894\n00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:05.840\nThey should be treated equally.\n\n895\n00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.630\nThere's something about the way he thought and conceived through the most\n\n896\n00:36:08.630 --> 00:36:09.280\ncomplex issues\n\n897\n00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:10.280\nin the world.\n\n898\n00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.440\nNo charity to all.\n\n899\n00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.560\nThe Gettysburg Address, I mean, was beautiful.\n\n900\n00:36:15.560 --> 00:36:19.530\nShort documents, it explains in a couple of paragraphs what the democracy is\n\n901\n00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:20.280\nall about.\n\n902\n00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:23.200\nI mean, it's really truly astounding.\n\n903\n00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:24.200\nYeah.\n\n904\n00:36:24.200 --> 00:36:27.720\nWhat's something about you that few people would know?\n\n905\n00:36:27.720 --> 00:36:31.080\nI spent a lot of time with my family.\n\n906\n00:36:31.080 --> 00:36:34.800\nI mean, I have a little bit of buying your life family and work.\n\n907\n00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:39.440\nYou don't see me in black ties and you probably have your son.\n\n908\n00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:43.280\nYou got me to go to the Ducky Derby once.\n\n909\n00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:44.280\nWe had fun.\n\n910\n00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:45.920\nDo you have any hidden talents, J.B.?\n\n911\n00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:48.080\nI love music and sports and stuff.\n\n912\n00:36:48.080 --> 00:36:50.160\nI can't play some stuff anymore.\n\n913\n00:36:50.160 --> 00:36:54.520\nI love to read history, but I wouldn't say hidden talents.\n\n914\n00:36:54.520 --> 00:36:55.520\nYou know, I got to ask you this.\n\n915\n00:36:55.520 --> 00:36:59.700\nI'm going to hear you are a leader that is probably one of the most admired,\n\n916\n00:36:59.700 --> 00:37:00.680\nmost renowned\n\n917\n00:37:00.680 --> 00:37:02.760\nleaders in the world.\n\n918\n00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:04.280\nWhat skills are you working on?\n\n919\n00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.920\nHow are you trying to raise your own game?\n\n920\n00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:07.920\nYeah.\n\n921\n00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:13.200\nI read a tremendous amount and I'm always learning from other people.\n\n922\n00:37:13.200 --> 00:37:14.200\nLearn, learn, learn.\n\n923\n00:37:14.200 --> 00:37:19.570\nLike David, I told you, years ago, when I was on your board and I learned a lot\n\n924\n00:37:19.570 --> 00:37:20.120\nabout\n\n925\n00:37:20.120 --> 00:37:23.200\nit, because you only do things yourself.\n\n926\n00:37:23.200 --> 00:37:25.280\nI saw how Sandy Weill did them.\n\n927\n00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.000\nI said, you guys did them.\n\n928\n00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:29.200\nSo I was just sucking it up.\n\n929\n00:37:29.200 --> 00:37:35.000\nIt's just the diligence of analytics, the importance of recognition, the\n\n930\n00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:36.040\nimportance of\n\n931\n00:37:36.040 --> 00:37:37.040\ngetting on the road.\n\n932\n00:37:37.040 --> 00:37:38.040\nGet on the road.\n\n933\n00:37:38.040 --> 00:37:39.040\nGo visit the stores.\n\n934\n00:37:39.040 --> 00:37:40.040\nGo vet.\n\n935\n00:37:40.040 --> 00:37:42.960\nYou just, so I'm just always sucking up from other people, learning, learning,\n\n936\n00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:43.480\nlearning,\n\n937\n00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:44.480\nlearning.\n\n938\n00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:45.640\nAnd you go and learn two ways.\n\n939\n00:37:45.640 --> 00:37:46.640\nReading or talking.\n\n940\n00:37:46.640 --> 00:37:51.160\nVisiting, you know, like getting to learn through.\n\n941\n00:37:51.160 --> 00:37:52.600\nAnd that's the best way.\n\n942\n00:37:52.600 --> 00:37:55.000\nOver time, you get more pattern recognition.\n\n943\n00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:57.960\nI think we've got better and better people.\n\n944\n00:37:57.960 --> 00:37:58.960\nI let go.\n\n945\n00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:02.800\nI can't do things I can use to for a whole bunch of different reasons.\n\n946\n00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:05.960\nSo, presumably you get better in life.\n\n947\n00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:06.960\nYou do.\n\n948\n00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:11.580\nEven management, there's the part which maybe instinctual be, learn a lot of\n\n949\n00:38:11.580 --> 00:38:12.560\ntricks to the\n\n950\n00:38:12.560 --> 00:38:13.560\ntrade.\n\n951\n00:38:13.560 --> 00:38:16.830\nLike I think I may have spoken about it before, but how important EQ is more\n\n952\n00:38:16.830 --> 00:38:17.600\nimportant like\n\n953\n00:38:17.600 --> 00:38:18.600\nyou?\n\n954\n00:38:18.600 --> 00:38:22.240\nDo people trust you when you want your kids to work for that person?\n\n955\n00:38:22.240 --> 00:38:24.440\nThat's a very basic question, right?\n\n956\n00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:27.990\nLike, God knows, I put people in jobs years ago, well, I want my kid to work\n\n957\n00:38:27.990 --> 00:38:28.640\nfor them.\n\n958\n00:38:28.640 --> 00:38:32.800\nAnd you earn trust and respect because people know you've got their back.\n\n959\n00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.280\nDoesn't even give a kick and ask to deserve it.\n\n960\n00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.680\nBut you're not going to shoot them if something goes wrong.\n\n961\n00:38:37.680 --> 00:38:38.680\nYou take the blame.\n\n962\n00:38:38.680 --> 00:38:40.680\nYou're there to help them succeed.\n\n963\n00:38:40.680 --> 00:38:45.680\nYou recognize your lack of contribution sometimes.\n\n964\n00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:46.680\nYou're the coach.\n\n965\n00:38:46.680 --> 00:38:48.680\nYou're not trying to grandstand.\n\n966\n00:38:48.680 --> 00:38:50.680\nYou're not all about you.\n\n967\n00:38:50.680 --> 00:38:53.080\nIt's a lesson over and over.\n\n968\n00:38:53.080 --> 00:38:54.680\nBob Gates talks about it.\n\n969\n00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:57.560\nJim Mattis talks about it as I know, talk about it.\n\n970\n00:38:57.560 --> 00:38:58.560\nIt's not humbleness.\n\n971\n00:38:58.560 --> 00:39:00.520\nIt's the humility of the job.\n\n972\n00:39:00.520 --> 00:39:03.080\nThe higher up you get, the less you know an average.\n\n973\n00:39:03.080 --> 00:39:05.360\nAnd it makes a lot of people very insecure.\n\n974\n00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:07.320\nAnd therefore you have to lie in more people.\n\n975\n00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.320\nAnd that makes you even more insecure.\n\n976\n00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:14.060\nBut you know, one thing you can't lose is just the common sense that you just\n\n977\n00:39:14.060 --> 00:39:14.600\ntalked\n\n978\n00:39:14.600 --> 00:39:15.600\nabout.\n\n979\n00:39:15.600 --> 00:39:17.600\nAnd you know, I try to do the same thing when I interviewed people.\n\n980\n00:39:17.600 --> 00:39:20.880\nIt's like, I always say, would I want my daughter to work for this person?\n\n981\n00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.480\nIf I couldn't say yes, that person didn't have a chance.\n\n982\n00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:27.440\nAnd you know, you do that same kind of thing and a whole lot more.\n\n983\n00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:32.350\nAnd you know, when you look to the future for JPMorgan Chase, what skills do\n\n984\n00:39:32.350 --> 00:39:32.880\nyou think\n\n985\n00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:36.150\nyou have to build into the company to make sure that you're prepared for the\n\n986\n00:39:36.150 --> 00:39:36.680\nfuture?\n\n987\n00:39:36.680 --> 00:39:42.070\nNow, that's obviously is the last most important thing I'm going to do is make\n\n988\n00:39:42.070 --> 00:39:43.200\nsure my success\n\n989\n00:39:43.200 --> 00:39:44.200\nor the right success.\n\n990\n00:39:44.200 --> 00:39:45.960\nAnd of course, it's a board decision.\n\n991\n00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:47.520\nIt's not mine.\n\n992\n00:39:47.520 --> 00:39:49.720\nThey meet, as you know, they meet all the senior people.\n\n993\n00:39:49.720 --> 00:39:52.250\nSo they get to see them, particularly now they get to see them a little bit on\n\n994\n00:39:52.250 --> 00:39:52.520\ntheir\n\n995\n00:39:52.520 --> 00:39:54.520\nfire and having to operate.\n\n996\n00:39:54.520 --> 00:39:58.320\nBut at the end of the day, you don't have to be an expert at everything.\n\n997\n00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:59.880\nBut they have to be true blue.\n\n998\n00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:03.080\nThey have to have a work ethic like you won't believe.\n\n999\n00:40:03.080 --> 00:40:07.040\nThey've got to be tough because you've got to make a lot of tough decisions.\n\n1000\n00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:10.120\nSome quick, some slow, they're hard decisions.\n\n1001\n00:40:10.120 --> 00:40:14.200\nThey've got to be open and they got to earn the respect of other people.\n\n1002\n00:40:14.200 --> 00:40:18.760\nThey've got to know how to coach the team as opposed to necessarily be the star\n\n1003\n00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:19.640\nquarterback\n\n1004\n00:40:19.640 --> 00:40:21.680\nor the star receiver or something like that.\n\n1005\n00:40:21.680 --> 00:40:24.520\nAnd you want them to have experience across the company.\n\n1006\n00:40:24.520 --> 00:40:26.280\nI would make that secondary.\n\n1007\n00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.560\nBut obviously, if you're on the board, you say you feel much more comfortable.\n\n1008\n00:40:29.560 --> 00:40:33.800\nThey've been on the investment bank and consumer and kind of had deep knowledge\n\n1009\n00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:34.360\nabout all the\n\n1010\n00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:36.360\nbusinesses, which a lot of our people do.\n\n1011\n00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:38.640\nAnd they've got to have some heart.\n\n1012\n00:40:38.640 --> 00:40:42.300\nSo they've got to literally wake up every day and give you their all change\n\n1013\n00:40:42.300 --> 00:40:43.000\ndirection.\n\n1014\n00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.680\nThey've got something wrong.\n\n1015\n00:40:44.680 --> 00:40:47.760\nKeep a real team focused and be tough.\n\n1016\n00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:51.980\nJamie, I want to thank you so much for taking this time out to share your\n\n1017\n00:40:51.980 --> 00:40:52.840\ninsights.\n\n1018\n00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.020\nAnd when I think about what is something about you that a few people might not\n\n1019\n00:40:57.020 --> 00:40:57.960\nknow, I always\n\n1020\n00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.120\nthink of your heart.\n\n1021\n00:40:59.120 --> 00:41:03.030\nI don't know of anybody that cares more about people, more about our country\n\n1022\n00:41:03.030 --> 00:41:03.840\nand more about\n\n1023\n00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:05.800\ndoing the right thing than you.\n\n1024\n00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:09.150\nAnd I want to thank you for giving people, obviously, through your comments\n\n1025\n00:41:09.150 --> 00:41:09.760\nhere, just\n\n1026\n00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.560\na real sense of who you are, how real you are.\n\n1027\n00:41:12.560 --> 00:41:13.960\nDavid, thank you very much.\n\n1028\n00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:14.960\nI always enjoyed it.\n\n1029\n00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:23.640\nI look forward to talking to you soon.\n\n1030\n00:41:23.640 --> 00:41:25.200\nOkay, buddy.\n\n1031\n00:41:25.200 --> 00:41:26.680\nThank you.\n\n1032\n00:41:26.680 --> 00:41:29.280\nI want you just love how real Jamie is.\n\n1033\n00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:32.160\nBelieve me, he is the real deal.\n\n1034\n00:41:32.160 --> 00:41:36.760\nHe's not afraid to jump into whatever tough situation he finds himself in.\n\n1035\n00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:41.160\nThe thing is, he's ready for those tough situations because he's thought about\n\n1036\n00:41:41.160 --> 00:41:43.040\nthem ahead of time.\n\n1037\n00:41:43.040 --> 00:41:47.160\nAll right, it's time for me to give you a little coaching.\n\n1038\n00:41:47.160 --> 00:41:52.010\nThis week, as part of your weekly development plan, here's what I want you to\n\n1039\n00:41:52.010 --> 00:41:52.400\ndo.\n\n1040\n00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.080\nI want you to schedule a 20-minute thinking block on your calendar.\n\n1041\n00:41:57.080 --> 00:42:02.390\nUse that time to consider a possible tough situation your team needs a playbook\n\n1042\n00:42:02.390 --> 00:42:02.960\nfor.\n\n1043\n00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:06.770\nI want you to really get your wheels turning about the risk facing your\n\n1044\n00:42:06.770 --> 00:42:07.840\norganization.\n\n1045\n00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:11.930\nOf course, hopefully these problems will never come up, but boy, if you're\n\n1046\n00:42:11.930 --> 00:42:12.560\nprepared\n\n1047\n00:42:12.560 --> 00:42:17.200\nfor them, you're going to have more strength and more confidence no matter what\n\n1048\n00:42:17.200 --> 00:42:17.280\n.\n\n1049\n00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:20.840\nNow if you want to learn even more from Jamie about dealing with problems,\n\n1050\n00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:21.480\ncheck out part\n\n1051\n00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:23.240\ntwo of our conversation.\n\n1052\n00:42:23.240 --> 00:42:27.700\nWe go deeper into his no-nonsense leadership style, including how he tackles\n\n1053\n00:42:27.700 --> 00:42:28.440\nthe actual\n\n1054\n00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:32.440\nday-to-day issues that come up at JP Morgan Chase.\n\n1055\n00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:34.600\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n1056\n00:42:34.600 --> 00:42:38.740\nWhat we learned today is that great leaders always have a plan to deal with\n\n1057\n00:42:38.740 --> 00:42:39.440\nproblems.\n\n1058\n00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:43.560\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every\n\n1059\n00:42:43.560 --> 00:42:44.360\nThursday you\n\n1060\n00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:48.920\nget to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world.\n\n1061\n00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:52.910\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1062\n00:42:52.910 --> 00:42:53.440\napply to your\n\n1063\n00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:56.880\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1064\n00:42:56.880 --> 00:43:06.880\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n1065\n00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:29.880\n[ Silence ]","

David Novak 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Jamie Dimon, the Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase. Now, he took this job back in 2006. And goodness gracious, it has not been easy. He faced the global financial crisis in oh eight, the pandemic and all the aftermath. I mean, at one point in this conversation, I have to just ask him if it's possible to have fun in business anymore. But I love the no nonsense way, Jamie approaches leadership in these tough moments, because he isn't surprised by problems, he's prepared for them. As he puts it, you don't have a war and then decide to have an army, you better have the army first. I mean, as leaders, we got to be real and say the problems are gonna come up. They just are, they might be big, or they might be small, short term or long term, but one thing's for sure, they're gonna be there, and we got to be prepared. There's just so much we can learn from Jamie. So we always have a plan to deal with problems. So buckle up. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Jamie Dimon.

Everyone has their own style and their their own way of leading and today's guests. My very good friend Jamie Dimon, the Chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase is a leader who leads by being absolutely real in everything he does. Jamie, I know you got a million irons in the fire right now. So I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me

Jamie Dimon 1:53

throughout the video today.

David Novak 1:56

You know, it's hard to believe but it's actually the anniversary of the financial crisis of 2008 12 years ago. And I was on the JPMorgan Chase board at the time, and I basically watched you and JPMorgan Chase save the US economy and the financial system. Could you remind us of the events and what you specifically learned from the crisis yourself?

Jamie Dimon 2:20

Yeah. So are you and I have been together a long time going way back for almost 25 years now. And we've learned a lot together. I always learned a lot watching you and our buddy Andy Pearson to back then. So you know, the crisis started. It was actually started much earlier than people think like in this summer 2007, the quant funds started have problems. And then Bear Stearns was the one that people remembered which we bought in March of oh eight, which kind of marked as the part of the beginning real bad times. And before Lehman, you had insurance companies, you have Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, you had a lot of Savings Loan. Yeah, a lot of mortgage brokers, you know, you had this terrible mortgage market was unfairly how bad it was. And then you had Lehman. And Lehman was obviously kind of the worst part. And even after Lehman, if you go to March of 2009, that's in the market at the bottom, right. So it just this thing unfolded, like just multiple train wrecks that took place over the course of a year. And of course, we don't a lot of Americans remember good major banks all over Europe failing. So this was cascading a global problem. What do you learn, the first thing you learn is you don't like have a war and then decide you're gonna have an army but the army first so that in some ways, we didn't change a lot. So you may remember our risk committee meetings. And we went from having them once a week, talk about these issues, have them every single day, and three or four times a day. In fact, you may remember I took you guys to one of the risks we met, I said, I can't have the board. But you come happy that we went through clients, we went through countries, you went through exposure meant to collaborate with the margin calls, you went through clients who were calling for help, and so but we were kind of prepared and on that basis. The other thing in the financial world crises happen, and they happen in ways you don't necessarily understand like, look at the one today, you know, which in many ways is worse because to health crises with the major recession with some of the global financial crisis attached to it and so, the best preparation of a great company have good margins respond quickly take care of your customers know the problems happen, don't be over leveraged. Don't say I never expect them to get back. You can always get back

David Novak 4:33

you know, I remember you making the fortress balance sheet your big rallying cry well before this to happen, where did you learn that as a leader? Where did that become such a key thing to you? Because you also went after that at Bank One with a lot of agents when you became CEO there.

Jamie Dimon 4:48

And before before you knew me, you know, I was I was the president chief revenue of travelers for many years and stuff like that. And that, you know, I I'm a nerd I studied a lot. My dad was a stockbroker. My grandfather died about Have these crises that I knew, and zizic give this little presentation this before the global financial crisis, but all the crises happen all the time. And they usually unsuspected, too much leverage often around commercial consumer real estate and welfare around new financial products. And that, that the preparation is to run a really good company. And I remember when you had your palms yum brands with genetically modified stuff, or that the people who delivered food to your stores

David Novak 5:28

were a distribution company.

Jamie Dimon 5:30

And every one of those were able to overcome management focused, I had bad stores and you kind of put them in the doctor after you've picked them up and resold them and deal with these things in the ordinary course and recover from them and and if you do it, you're doing a great job for your customers, your employees, your communities, because you're strong. And the fourth episode of the course bounces I believe conservative county literally is considered I you know, I don't like contract counts. I think that unbalancing what balance sheet makes absolutely no difference, I believe and fortress balance sheet goods portraits controls for just risk you know, having a good margins, your understanding all your exposures and of course, you know, your exposures in one business very different than mine. You know, when British understand how bad can that get, so you can handle it,

David Novak 6:18

you know, looking back, JB What are you most proud of, of your team and during that time,

Jamie Dimon 6:23

just that they come together, that even when you're not there, they're in the room and I remember instead of being formal, like risk can be measured at 10 members, and it was meeting literally 5am for the Asians 10pm at night for the Asians but 12 and one five and the people just get the digits just bring the gun bring you gotta climb the problem bring the person expert in the climate expert in the product and and people were communicating nonstop all through the night sometime keep people briefed you know, wake up Jamie don't wake them up gets let's but respond in constant contact with governments around the world. And just, you know, just teamwork is a those who have never played a team don't fool us team, how good teamwork feels. I remember

David Novak 7:08

going to those risk committee meetings with you and watching you just take on event after event after event. And you were like the orchestra conductor? Yeah. But you you really leaned hard on the team and help them understand how accountable they had to had to be how'd you muster up just the fortitude to go in every day and take on. Because you weren't doing this one day a week you were doing this 24/7 Every single day,

Jamie Dimon 7:34

we do that every day for the better part of a year or something like that. And you know, I'm David, I'm just not completely normal. But it's also it's like, it's like when you're you play sports man, you just you want to win that game, you're gonna do it, it takes within the rules, of course, and, and you're just and you know, you got to do it. And every day you wake up, you know, you just roll up your sleeves. And it's, and you just want to be proud of the team within plus, they're relying on me. So they motivate me because I know they're up all night, just to tell me one little thing sometimes in the motivation get from your own people is extraordinary. You taught me about the recognition thing, and the depth of what it means because behind recognition, you're acknowledging that they did it not you acknowledging that you can't do it all. There's a humility beneath that you're acknowledging you learn from them. It isn't just that you're paying them in the back. But you're you're basically showing General Jim Mattis, we talked about leadership, he talks about humility. That you know, you know, you don't know, you know, the other person is probably in the firing line, and you're not your job is to be the coach, or you said the awkward constructor. Not necessarily the quarterback, right? You may not even be playing the game, making sure the teams play the game right.

David Novak 8:51

Now, Jamie, here we are, we have COVID-19. You know, how are you navigating JPMorgan Chase through these crazy times? And how much do you think just the financial crisis that you went through in 2008, you know, really has helped prepare you for this.

Jamie Dimon 9:09

So we started a COVID-19 war room, like, maybe a month before, they actually started shutting down because we were really worried about it. So a company like ours prepares for you to do for disaster recovery, we kind of had pandemic playbooks. But we didn't have a global pandemic, and global economic shutdown playbook. But the team did exactly the same thing. They started beating every day. What can we do from home? What we do from here? How can you move it to those seats? I need those seats, how many brands would it be keep open? How are we gonna keep moving the money around the world? And the whole world closed down? So we had 65,000 People put out and work in India and the Philippines. You know, we're doing work for us. And so, but the same thing that teams started meeting all the time and management committee still meets every day at 10 o'clock, any issues on the table, bring up whatever you gotta bring up Some of the meetings are short, some of them are long. Some we debate the issue, some guy say that some chicken or steak doesn't really matter if when you do just do one and move on. So the lessons are the same. And I would say about half the people are here for that. Not all of them. So I think a lot of the younger people learn how you do crisis management. One of the beautiful things also, as you know, we all complain about bureaucracy or slowness, or that one goes away. I mean, necessity is the mother of invention, you just learned to do stuff a lot faster. And with less, you know, getting left permission up the line.

David Novak 10:35

Yeah, I remember just recently, you know, a couple years ago, everybody said, you know, all these young finance people, business people come up, they don't really know what it's like to operate in a tough environment, we'd had such a run after 2009. Well, we're learning now, right?

Jamie Dimon 10:53

And worse than that, because we have unbelievably good people. A lot of people get these jobs getting jobs at an already really relevant company. You learn a lot more and a turnaround. So you learn a lot more running yum brands, when it was new. Taco Bell is underperforming, pizza was underperforming, you know, you haven't problem left and right, your own to manage doors profit more than too low, you had to renegotiate as you learn more doing that than when you have a successor takes over the job is already well run. And I always worried about that, like, Okay, well, have you really been in the boxing ring, you may be the heavyweight champion the world, but you didn't have to fight 10 people to get there. And so a lot of these folks are learning this way. They've never had a tough time. They've never had, they've never lost money. They never made a bad loan, they never know. And those things hurt, you know, when you're doing them. And so

David Novak 11:49

I know you don't let necessarily see yourself as a fortune teller. And and I think I know exactly what your answer is going to be. But but I'm going to ask you this anyway. What's your gut tell you that our economy is going to be like in the next few years?

Jamie Dimon 12:05

Yeah. So I'll tell you, I will answer the question. Before I do that more for how we think about a little bit. I think the people who listen to podcasts, you really always should be thinking about, I always say the book ends, almost like worst case, best case, or something approximating that, because you got to prepare for both to be running a company, since you don't know the future. So you may want to predict you can try but you should never say this is what I think I'm betting my company in that. And we have to be prepared for long, extended, no vaccine 12% unemployment for no for multiple years. And how do I continue to serve my client do a good job, take care of my employees on in that environment, which is what I plan for and worry about. And then of course, is the good environment, we come out of this thing. So the big picture America's amazing resume, we will get out of it. The real question is, you know, is it a year, a year 12 months worse before we start getting much better? Or is it three years, but it's not never. And so I think people would kind of overreact to some of these things in that. But if I if I had to guess, if we're going to slog through, until next June, call it you know, we're now 10 and a half or 11% unemployment, I'm not sure it's gonna get a lot better for a whole bunch of different reasons, it could actually get worse in the short run, we don't know how the health crisis is going to unveil starting to look better. And then then you'll start to see improvement. And of course, put the geopolitical complexity in there the election, the relations with China though all those things, emerging markets, gonna have a tough time, the order affects America. And so I hope it's better than that. And I think the government did a lot of really brave quick stuff to make it better than that. I hope they're gonna do another round intelligently. But it's gonna be a tough road still.

David Novak 13:56

Jamie, I've seen you run your businesses, and you have a great gut instinct. And you're also very analytical and you go through the process of looking at the facts. But when you when you look at your decision making process, you know, do you think you're more analytic lead or get lead?

Jamie Dimon 14:16

Personal, I'm a nerd, I study and read everything we work, the numbers, the models, the facts, I look at history, I do all of that. And in some ways, it's hard to separate them, because that actually leads to the God. But if you analyze you call gotten people to analyze it is based upon pattern recognition, things you learned mistakes you've made, and that leads to the God and so but it's really it's really a great question, because if you ask me, How many times do I guess at a decision very rarely. I always say sometimes the good answers are waiting to be found. And the way to be found you're working. You're working on the right people in the room over and over. If somebody can do quick, some take a little bit longer. You're gonna take more time with Jeff Bezos calls the one door When you go into Windows, you can't go back, I deal with more than people decisions, certain strategic decisions, a lot of you go back, you can test and learn, it doesn't work, you try something else. And so some of you made quicker let people make their own gut. Now the thing is, as you know, you got to you can't make a decision yourself. Even if I could, I shouldn't let people do it, learn how to get in that boxing ring and stuff like that. So I'd say I'd say somebody's more analytic than people think

David Novak 15:28

I've offered this to you. And you've turned me down. I wanted to be your campaign manager, I wanted you to run for president United States. But you know, it doesn't seem to be at your future, at least for the moment. But if you were president, if you were president, what kind of leadership would you try to bring to this country?

Jamie Dimon 15:45

First of all, I think you should always have great people around you. expertise is important, you know, you and I know that you can't do anything intelligent by yourself. And you really need to have with domestic or foreign policy. And like that, I think, I think it's very important. We have growth strategies in America, whether you're Democrat or Republican, grow the economy. And so you have regulations taxations, capital is really good. And then of course, you can tax wealthier people. But I always tell people, if you're growing at 3%, that is a lot more to go around for everybody. And then you can easily more easily pay for social safety nets, etc. If we become really bad public policy, infrastructure is not good. We don't have what I'm called smart regulation was more or less. Our health care system has too many people uninsured. But we have some of the best in the world, which you and I have beneficiaries of, we also have 40 million uninsured. And we spend twice as much the other countries that we don't have twice the outcomes. So all these things, we just done a bad job. We don't teach nutrition in high schools, we don't have sports teams in inner cities, education and decisions leaving generation kids buying, and we should fix those things. Those are Democrat Republicans, and then foreign policy. I think a strong America economically is critical for the military. It's critical for American foreign policy. And we should work very closely with the allies in Europe and Japan, to form proper trading structures, military structures, defense structures together, you know, to compromise a little bit. I think there are a lot of flaws with the ones who were replaced, but they are better than not, not against China. But you know, have China join what we think is the right trading system, and maybe a little decoupling from that. So be it right now. We've got so much fighting going on between everybody. I'm not sure it's great for the international system.

David Novak 17:35

You know, I'd love to hear Jamie, how's the leader? You'd go about addressing the income gap we have in America? Is there an answer to this? Yeah,

Jamie Dimon 17:44

I mean, there's I think there are multiple answers. And I think it's real. And of course, the racial gap is real. And it's been there for under 50 years, it isn't like new, you know, and dammit, we haven't done a good job. You know, we started with the 40 acres of murals of the black community, we never finished it that was meant to give opportunity. So, so a model of education and the health of families be in the inner cities to get these kids good paying jobs. It's been done, it's been done around the world, their apprenticeship program, internship programs, you need business to be more involved, but one affordable housing would be another. But I will also be there's a thing called the earned income tax credit. So if you're making $14,000 a year as a single mother with two children, the government gives you 6000. And you know, it's supposed to bring you up to more of a living wage, I wouldn't, I would double that. And both Democrats and Republicans like it. So job, bring dignity, get people in the workforce, people who enter the workforce tend to stay, and they tend to start to move up the ladder. So if you have a $22,000 a year job, you know, in 10 years, it could be 55,000 or 75,000. So I would I would have jobs pay more, even if we had a negative income tax or something, I think it'd be better for growth benefit society, you have better social outcomes, change the taxes and a little bit, I would have a very competitive business tax system. I think it's a mistake to hurt business taxation, etc. And then you know, then you have to tax people who are the wealthy man that does not slow down growth, hurting businesses, that slows down growth. And so I would have a growth strategy around regulation, taxation, etc. And you will have higher growth America and I really do believe that shouldn't be growing 3% a year for the last 10 to 12 years not to that 1% difference is a huge amount of GDP, I think you'd have been in fourth $4 trillion higher, that means tax collection would have been another $25 Higher, okay, the GDP per household would have been far bigger. And they that that pays for more UK and by our safety net needs to be fixed tubes. It has so many flaws and it actually hurts some lower income people so my biggest complaint would be good policy will get us there. Anger will not and business tax. Don't be involved government can't do it alone. And not that government is bad government just just as a good move that quick. They don't have AI, they don't have our technology, you know, 80% of jobs come out of business. So we should just acknowledge that business work with civic society think of unions, hospitals, schools, etc. And with government and working together, we can fix this thing, hating each other. It's just really hard to do

David Novak 20:23

the other big issue and you brought it up as healthcare. And I know you don't necessarily have the answer on how to solve this. But I think what would be interesting is for you to share, if I was a Prezi, United States, and I said, Hey, Jamie, I want you to solve healthcare for our country. Okay. How would you go about doing it? How would you think as a leader, and what would you do to get to the right answer?

Jamie Dimon 20:46

So if you were president, I would take the job, by the way, because I work for people I respect. And so the first is just to define the problem, like literally define the problem. And so we know it's too expensive. We know 40 million people uninsured. We know there's no transparency, we don't teach wellness, obesity has become, you know, General Odierno told me that 70% of the kids who apply to get in the military can't get in because they can't read or write, or they're obese. And obesity drives heart disease, depression, cancer, stroke. And so we acknowledge the problem, get the people who are involved in to acknowledge the problem now, and then I formed a group of people, not just experts, academic, but practitioners, hospitals, doctors, and then I would come up with solutions for each one of those things. How are we gonna do transparency, how we do the dark book programs, how we're like insurance should if you have a insurance industry nationwide, not by state, we shouldn't have medical malpractice reform. We should be teaching nutrition and exercise in K to 12. Like, you know, we all took our own kids, they don't teach it in schools anymore. And then I go to you, as the President say, here's what we should do. You have to make the political choices. I wouldn't bastardize you know what you should do, but it often happens in decision makers. uberta dies the decision before you get to the person. So you might say, Jamie, I can't do a, I can't do B, I can't do C, but I get d e and f done helped me get that done. And I'd say Yes, sir. Let's go again. Let's make it better than was before.

David Novak 22:18

That just makes too much common sense.

Jamie Dimon 22:22

That's why I can be in those jobs.

David Novak 22:25

I don't know about that. But anyway, we're just mentioned health. And you know, I have to because I know everybody would want me to ask this. I want to ask you about your own health. You and I both had cancer a few years ago, and then you've recently had this heart attack. I know you're listening to you right now. You're back at it. You are the Jamie Dimon. It's always the Jamie Dimon I know anyway, but how have these events, these life events impacted your outlook on life and business?

Jamie Dimon 22:53

Yeah, you still adjusting to it? The way my mind works, I, I kind of delayed my reaction to something like that. And for the audience, I had the cold aortic dissection, like they replace parts of my heart. And I usually could have died. And I knew that going to the operating room. And I always tell people, I really need to take care of your mind, body, spirit and soul, your friends and your family. I tell them, please, we can't do all that for you, we can help you. And one lesson from my thing, by the way, I call my doctor right. And I felt my heartbreak. Um, this was not like, maybe I knew something was devastatingly wrong. He not answered my phone call at 550 in the morning, and not going to the hospital, and he not going top to heart doctor in there, I wouldn't have made it. And so you know, I tell be prepared. Like if something goes wrong, like what do you do? Who should take care of the kids who's gonna stay home, what happened you go to because you can have any one for you know, a folding knife, it could be a heart attack or a stroke or something like that. So be a little prepared. But it doesn't. It didn't change. I felt good about literally going I told my wife going in I I felt good about everything I've done in life. I didn't feel like regrets. Or I felt I've loved my family and good position, and then in different ways. And so I wasn't going to go out feeling unhappy, bad, obviously dying. 64 remain unhappy. But when I'm obviously recovering, I like purpose in life. I think it's good to have a purpose in life. And my purpose can't be to play golf or to, you know, snip the flowers and stuff like that. I like to travel, but I love what I do. I work with people and customers and employees and kids in the black community. And I talk to the Ukrainian people, I talk to the politicians, and I like it. I'm trying to make it a better world. This is my contribution as best as I can to the world. And I want to do that pretty much until the day I die. And one day I'll do some like what you're doing which is teaching. I'd love to do that too. I love to talk to kids in colleges. And I want you know, one of my favorite conversations with other CEOs is how do you run your joint? How do you run it? I still use that trick you gave me since we last met at the board. Like how do you do because you learn In so much other people, so having a purpose, like makes me feel good. And you know, when I can't give it my all, I shouldn't have the job, I tell me, this is not a job, kind of retired place, you didn't give it 100%. And you can give it to somebody else and help them in transition period is something but let them, let them go through the job. So the only the only thing that sickness is changed a little bit, is this thing about my mind is much less like, you know, everyone knows they're going to die. But believe it or not, you really don't know until you've had something like this, because you faced it right up here. So now when I'm sure you're probably the same thing, you don't assume it's gonna go on forever.

Unknown Speaker 25:41

It can happen.

Jamie Dimon 25:43

It can happen when someone says you have cancer, and it's like a punch in the face. And so I used the word I got this from Julia Baird, who wrote a book. But she's used the word deliberative, multiple bouts of cancer, that you just live more deliberately. But in my job, you can only do things you like, so don't you say, Oh, I'm not gonna do that. I'm like, I have to do those things. But you live deliberately. What do you want to do? Why are you doing it? How you thought so so I didn't make a bunch of changes. But I try to exercise almost every day, I try to take care of myself and all of that. But purpose is purpose. I mean, work is purpose, fighting for something as a purpose,

David Novak 26:22

you fight for good. There's no question about that. And right now, with our economy, small businesses are in deep, deep trouble. How are you taking a leading role trying to find the best way to keep them up and running, because they're the lifeblood of our country.

Jamie Dimon 26:39

So when I was getting out of hospital, and only have functioning, like, they'd already done PPP. And I was so impressed with our government, in two or three weeks, the department you can criticize it all you want. But I've seen Secretary Minuchin says that I think he's done an extraordinary job on all the Fed programs. And again, you criticize the things I would have done differently. You know, they're, of course, you and I can't come up with a program in three weeks, that doesn't have flaws. And they by corrected some of the flaws, but it's also signed very good management, I got it, I understand it, as opposed to denying it. And we think though, that PPP pride kept 30 million people in jobs. Now, I can't prove that, you know, we have data that can justify it, but we have to keep small businesses alive to get him over the hurdle. Somebody's not making any way, by the way, for at least you've given them a chance to make and, and you know, the restaurant business while the restaurants are really struggling. And so they have the right thing. Now we're the government target and other programs were in touch with them about what we think works and what doesn't work at a very kind of a technical level, which forms you have to have a document to have, you know, who relies on who statements, you know, banks keep an audit everything that someone does, you don't have the ability to do that. So you have to rely on the statement, small business owner saying, I am using this money for payroll, I am using money for rent, but you're gonna have to have another round for another bunch. And, and the Fed has a bunch of probes out there. So I think in general, they're doing the right stuff. Good job, we need another round. And we also have to get back to work, this notion that somehow we can not be back at work, and then you're not going to have a an economy gets kind of consistently worse, and that will be worse, the health of Americans, depression, drinking drugs, crime. We know one thing about the economy, that unemployment is a bad thing for the health of Americans and and then people lose their skills, the capital stock gets worse. So you know, there's a we got to keep pushing this thing until we get out.

David Novak 28:41

I couldn't agree more, you know, and our country has also had the crisis that was ignited by the tragic death of George Floyd. How are you addressing racial justice and diversity and inclusion at JPMorgan Chase?

Jamie Dimon 28:57

Yeah, you know, again, so that, that's another one. So COVID showed that all the inequities in society, but they were already there, that was during the Great Recession is growing. Every recession, the poor people suffer more. And a lot of the poor minorities, the murder of George Floyd, we've already known about this stuff. And I, my view is we got to double down and fix it. So the BRT, JP Morgan, a lot of companies are doing much more work. And we've started this project called advancing Blackbelly, before the murder of George Floyd about affordable housing, financing small businesses, lending to special types of mortgages, a training programs for inner city school kids, and all of us have to just double down and come up with the policies, the rules, the targets, that make sense, because this has gone on for too freaking long, and I'm gratified that the American public recognize it. And they've totally changed their mind about this. And David, one of the beautiful things, you know, we're all each other's throat at seven o'clock pm every day in New York. If you stick your head outside a window, you're gonna hear him But it's 1000 people clapping and banging pans and yelling and sharing, as all in support of the essential workers, the nurses, the doctors, the sanitation workers. That's the spirit we need. What can we do to help America at this point, not just ourselves sometimes and, and so we have, the VRT can write some really interesting stuff about racial equality, I think that now's the time to whatever we've done. In the past, a lot of coaches have done a lot of good stuff, they acknowledge, it's not enough, we got to do more, we got to figure out ways to make it work better. And it'll be better for all society to what if we get that done,

David Novak 30:34

BRT talked about the business roundtable for our listeners out there, you know, and you've really led the charge and trying to get business to be more responsible in every way. You know, a lot of people say, Oh, the BRTs come out with this state, but it's just some fluff. Is this real? Do you think companies are genuinely changing?

Jamie Dimon 30:54

Yeah. I mean, I think somebody's already done it. So the notion of these bigger companies weren't good. They already took very good care of the employees, they paid them, well, they train them while they're in health care, that emotional programs and people that are motional problems. And so the notion that we weren't going to work good for you. So that's that wasn't true. But what what is true is that we the corporate purpose that had been the Business Roundtable had said, you know, primacy of shareholder value. And then we've seen to the board of the Business Roundtable, the first thing you think about is your customer, and you got to think you're a customer do a good job, and of course, your employee. So I don't know, any CEO comes in and says shareholder value. This is, what are your technology? What are your system, who your customers are your employees, and of course, you are good community citizen. So all the companies believe that we change the wording, we can demonstrate all the stuff we already do. And yeah, a lot of companies want to do more, the most complex one, David is the corporate responsibility, one to community responsibility. And that one, I'm gonna give you two examples that are both important. One is hard to understand the other. But if you ran just one store, you're part of the community, you take the ice off the funny little days and break her leg, you probably participate in religious institution locally, the literally, if you make food, you probably drop off the excess food to the homeless shelter some of the way home, you participate. That's called humanity committed better for your visit better afford, your people still have smiles on their faces. The other one is, I'm gonna say is macro corporate responsibility. And that was more about prices, public policy is more diffused like What do you mean, but I think CEOs should spend more time on getting good public policy, not just fighting for something's good for them, like it's tax break. But infrastructure, immigration, proper regulation, more or less smart regulation, health care, that all these things that if we did a better job, and we grew faster country, everyone would be better off. And of course, the rich would be even better off because they own a larger country. And their most inflation complaint is a taxable bit more. And so. And my view is that that is an important thing. And the CEOs have a lot to offer on those things. How do you get better if you've walked the halls of Congress they need they need help and and not help because they help us help because they don't have the experts always feels they belong, want to do the right thing. But they say what do you need to do to do this? How come you can't finance this? How would you set up? Now how can we make these infrastructure things? Use your pay? All divinities have ways we can help? Help the government do a better job,

David Novak 33:34

Jamie, we've just gone through a lot of big time weighty weighty issues. Do you think it's possible to have fun in business anymore?

Jamie Dimon 33:43

Yeah. David, our job my job is like a lot of parts that I really don't like. Sometimes it's a big part of my job. So it was a small part of my job. But generally coming from happy, I'm exhausted by Friday, you know, but But I come in and Monday, I'm happy to go back to work and I enjoyed doing our people, our clients. I miss travel. Like You I traveled the world. I just did a town hall with our folks in the Philippines today. But like it said, it was I'm sorry, I can't be there in person. Shaking hands. I didn't have words out. I like to take pictures and have a nice dinner with the on demand team and learn what's going on in their country and their families. And, and so yeah, it for the most part is fun. But all the jobs compose apart. It's not. And you know, as much as people think CEOs, you know, my wife says, Are you the CEO, man, you're always treated well yet. All the accolades sometimes. Yeah, we'll spend a week with me. Sometime, those parts of the job that aren't that

David Novak 34:40

I think one of the things we both the boys loved is you know, when times are tough, or if there's something sick about you as the leader because you you actually enjoy getting in there. It's kind of like this is when you earn your money, you know?

Jamie Dimon 34:51

Exactly. You feel responsible. Yeah. When I go around the world, and I look at the folks that we've hired in the sheds. I am makes me feel so responsible. They want to do my job even better, so that I don't let them down.

David Novak 35:08

Davey, this has been so much fun catching up with you. And I want to have a little bit more before we take off here. I want to do a lightning round of q&a with you. Okay. All right, what three words best describe you.

Jamie Dimon 35:21

Deliberate centac?

David Novak 35:28

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Jamie Dimon 35:30

Bureaucracy and politics?

David Novak 35:33

If you could be one person in a world for a day besides you and me, okay, who would have been?

Jamie Dimon 35:40

Probably Abe Lincoln,

David Novak 35:41

how come?

Jamie Dimon 35:43

I think the guy was such an extraordinary human being saved our country. And if you read everything he wrote or said, is deliberate thought is how he treated people. I think he might have been the first president had a black man to lunch, you know, and even early in his political career talked about how they're either equal people, they should be treated equally. There's something about the way he thought and concede to the most complex issues in the world, or charity to all the Gettysburg Address are the most beautiful, short documents that explains in a couple of paragraphs, what the democracy is all about. I mean, it's really truly astounding.

David Novak 36:23

Yeah. What's something about you that few people would know?

Jamie Dimon 36:27

I spent a lot of time my family. I mean, I have a little bit of binder like family and work. I don't do you don't see me in black ties. And you saw him in Kentucky Derby.

David Novak 36:43

We had fun. Do you have any hidden talents? JB?

Jamie Dimon 36:46

I love music and sports and stuff. I can't play some of that stuff anymore. But I love to read history. And I will say hidden talents.

David Novak 36:54

You know, I gotta ask you this. I mean, here you are a leader. That is probably one of the most admired most renowned leaders in the world. What skills are you working on? How are you trying to raise your own game?

Jamie Dimon 37:06

Yeah, I read a tremendous amount. And I'm always learning from other people learn, learn, learn, like I David, I told you the years ago, and I was on your board. And any I've learned a lot about how they can you you only do things yourself. I saw how Sandy Weill did them. So you guys did them. So I'm just sucking it up system that the diligence of an analytics, the importance of recognition, the, you know, the importance of get on the road, get on the road, go visit storage COVID, you know, and you just saw, I was always stocking up from other people learning, learning, learning, learning, and you can learn two ways reading or talking. Visiting, you know, we're like getting to learn from so. That's the best way over time you get more pattern recognition. I think we've gotten better and better people. You know, I let go like I don't I can't do things like I used to for whole bunch of different reasons. And so presumably you get better in life you do you know, even management. There's the part which you may be instinctual be learn a lot of tricks to the trade, you know, and like I think I've spoken about before, but how important EQ is more important IQ. Do people trust you? Would you want your kids to work for that person? That's a very basic question, right? Like, God knows I put people in jobs years ago, why wouldn't my kid to work for him, and you earn trust and respect. Because people know you've got their back doesn't mean you won't get a kick in the ass, they deserve it, but you're not going to shoot them. If something goes wrong, that you take the blame, you're there to help them succeed, that you recognize their contribution. You recognize your lack of contribution sometimes that you're the coach, you know, you're not trying to grandstand. You know, you're not all about you. And, you know, it's again, it's a lesson over over Bob Gates talks about it. Jim Mattis talks about CEOs I know talk about it is not humbleness, this the humility of the job, the higher up you get, the less you know, an average and it makes a lot of people very insecure. And therefore you have to rely on more people. And that makes you even more insecure.

David Novak 39:09

But today, one thing you can't lose just the the common sense that you just talked about. And you know, I tried to do the same thing when I interviewed people it's like I always say what I want my daughter to work for this person if I couldn't say yes, that person didn't have a chance and you know, you knew that same kind of thing and no and a whole lot more. And, you know, when you look to the future for JPMorgan Chase, what skills do you think you have to build into the company to make sure that you're prepared for the future?

Jamie Dimon 39:37

That's and that obviously is the last most important thing I'm going to do is make sure my successes or my successor and of course it's a board decision, it's not mine. They meet as you know, they meet all the senior people, they can see them, particularly now you can see them a little bit under fire and and having to upgrade but at the end of the day, you don't have to be an expert everything, but they have to be true blue You have to have a work ethic like you won't believe they've got to be tough, because you're gonna, you got to make a lot of tough decisions, some quick, some slow, they're hard decisions, they've got to be open, and they've got to earn the respect of other people, they've got to know how to, like coach the team, as opposed to necessarily be the star quarterback or the star receiver, something like that. And you want them to have experience across the company, I would make that secondary. But you know, obviously, if you're on the board, you say, you'll feel much more comfortable. They'd been on the investment bank and consumer and kind of had deep knowledge about all the businesses, which a lot of our people do. So they gotta have some heart. They got to literally wake up every day and give it their all change direction when they got something wrong. Keep a real team focused and be tough.

David Novak 40:47

Jamie, I want to thank you so much for taking this time out to share your insights. And you know, when I think about what is something about you that few people might not know, I always think of your heart. I don't know anybody that cares more about people more about our country and more about doing the right thing than you. And I want to thank you for giving people obviously through your comments here, just a real sense of who you are, how real you are.

Jamie Dimon 41:12

And David, thank you very much. Always enjoy, and I look forward to talking to you soon.

David Novak 41:16

Okay, buddy, thank you.

Don't you just love how real Jamie is, believe me, he is the real deal. He's not afraid to jump into whatever tough situation he finds himself in. The thing is he's ready for those tough situations, because he thought about them ahead of time. All right. It's time for me to give you a little coaching this week as part of your weekly development plan. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to schedule a 20 minute thinking block on your calendar. Use that time to consider a possible tough situation. Your team needs a playbook for I want you to really get your wheels turning about the risks facing your organization. Of course, hopefully these problems will never come up. But boy, if you're prepared for him, you're going to have more strength and more confidence no matter what. Now, if you want to learn even more from Jamie about dealing with problems, check out part two of our conversation, we go deeper into his no nonsense leadership style, including how he tackles the actual day to day issues that come up at JPMorgan Chase. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders always have a plan to deal with problems. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

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