[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_137":-5,"_138":-5,"_139":140,"_141":142,"_143":144},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1902/three-things-great-salespeople-do","id",1902,"title","Three things great salespeople do","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.690\nall that stuff. So I went to Wall Street. I quickly realized that I didn't like\n\n2\n00:00:06.690 --> 00:00:08.360\ntalking\n\n3\n00:00:08.360 --> 00:00:13.300\nabout bond yields, that I like to sell something that's more tangible, that you\n\n4\n00:00:13.300 --> 00:00:14.200\ncan see, feel\n\n5\n00:00:14.200 --> 00:00:20.160\nor touch. I didn't like selling, you know, I had to sell again numbers. So I\n\n6\n00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:20.560\nthink it's\n\n7\n00:00:20.560 --> 00:00:26.480\nimportant to learn what you don't like. And I also learned the value of phone\n\n8\n00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:27.480\nsales.\n\n9\n00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:31.550\nSo I was institutional sales and Sam Maron was the sales manager, he was a\n\n10\n00:00:31.550 --> 00:00:32.380\nmarine tough\n\n11\n00:00:32.380 --> 00:00:37.960\nguy, good guy. But he said anytime you pick up the phone, make sure you're\n\n12\n00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:38.800\nadding value.\n\n13\n00:00:38.800 --> 00:00:42.730\nLike don't call somebody, just say, oh, just checking in, you know, basically\n\n14\n00:00:42.730 --> 00:00:43.280\nyou're going\n\n15\n00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:48.140\nto throw me a trade today. And then the last thing, and I still use this, when\n\n16\n00:00:48.140 --> 00:00:48.360\nyou get\n\n17\n00:00:48.360 --> 00:00:54.220\nthe order, hang up the phone, don't oversell, right? So like I learned that and\n\n18\n00:00:54.220 --> 00:00:54.680\nrecruited.\n\n19\n00:00:54.680 --> 00:00:59.260\nI learned that now when somebody commits to my coaching practice, I say, okay,\n\n20\n00:00:59.260 --> 00:00:59.640\ngreat.\n\n21\n00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:03.900\nWe'll send you the contract and look forward to seeing you following up next\n\n22\n00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:04.520\nweek. You\n\n23\n00:01:04.520 --> 00:01:08.490\noversell and all of a sudden someone's like, Oh, wait, oh, really? I have to\n\n24\n00:01:08.490 --> 00:01:09.120\ncome once a\n\n25\n00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:14.240\nmonth for eight hours. And I don't know, let me think about this. So the phone\n\n26\n00:01:14.240 --> 00:01:15.120\nsales adding\n\n27\n00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:19.010\nvalue, knowing what you don't like. And when you get the order, hang up the\n\n28\n00:01:19.010 --> 00:01:19.280\nphone.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",831679,"end_time",909259,"keywords","Sales, selling, salesperson, wall street, overselling, value","slug","three-things-great-salespeople-do","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","W7DcbDgeUralExndAf3UzVllPD8SF5wYeT2AyBzOq00o","mux_asset_id","PNEqcTzN4mH7PiJj802g01zMNi1009H9RvGn2Ujlb5DHNU","leader_id",173,"episode_id",322,"updated_at","2025-03-07T15:21:56.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1902/three-things-great-salespeople-do","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_101":102,"_103":104,"_105":106,"_25":107,"_108":109,"_62":110,"_59":110,"_111":112,"_69":113,"_39":114,"_115":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_116":117,"_89":118,"_44":119,"_120":121,"_122":123,"_46":-5,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_93":128,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":58,"_59":60,"_61":-5,"_62":60,"_63":-5,"_64":65,"_66":67,"_68":-5,"_69":-5,"_70":71,"_72":73,"_74":-5,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_76":77,"_78":79,"_80":81,"_82":83,"_84":-5,"_85":-5,"_86":87,"_88":-5,"_89":-5,"_46":-5,"_90":91,"_92":-5,"_93":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Look for the opportunities in adversity","look-for-the-opportunities-in-adversity","Learn how to recognize the incredible opportunities that adversity can present to you. See why you’ve got to hold your team accountable, even when it’s comfortable. Plus, what it was like to win a national title alongside Michael Jordan!","summary","

If you lead long enough, you’re bound to find yourself in a situation that’s hard, unfair, or even downright painful.

In those moments of adversity, how do you respond? And what can you learn from them?

This week’s episode gives you an honest, vulnerable look into those questions and can help you uncover the opportunities waiting in whatever adversity you’re dealing with.

You’ll also learn:

The big risk you take in not holding people accountable
Three fun (but practical) tips to be a better salesperson
An open and honest look at how to deal with getting fired
What it was like to win a national title alongside Michael Jordan

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.850\nWelcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:07.850 --> 00:00:08.640\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.240\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:14.370\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:14.370 --> 00:00:14.960\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.800\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:21.360\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:21.360 --> 00:00:27.170\nWell, March Madness is kicking off this weekend, and I'm honored to have Matt\n\n9\n00:00:27.170 --> 00:00:28.160\nDoherty join\n\n10\n00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:30.240\nme as my guest today.\n\n11\n00:00:30.240 --> 00:00:34.600\nMatt's played in Final Force himself and is the former head basketball coach at\n\n12\n00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:34.960\nboth\n\n13\n00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:39.700\nNotre Dame and the University of North Carolina, and is now a nationally\n\n14\n00:00:39.700 --> 00:00:41.200\nrecognized executive\n\n15\n00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:45.400\ncoach, motivational speaker, and author.\n\n16\n00:00:45.400 --> 00:00:49.000\nMatt wrote what I think is one of the most revealing leadership books out there\n\n17\n00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:49.240\n.\n\n18\n00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:54.000\nIt's called Rebound, and let me tell you, it's jam-packed with insights on what\n\n19\n00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:54.200\nto\n\n20\n00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:57.360\ndo when things don't go your way.\n\n21\n00:00:57.360 --> 00:00:58.560\nBecause let's be real.\n\n22\n00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:03.490\nIf you lead long enough, there's a possibility you just might find yourself in\n\n23\n00:01:03.490 --> 00:01:04.320\na situation\n\n24\n00:01:04.320 --> 00:01:10.280\nthat's really tough or really unfair or just downright painful.\n\n25\n00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:14.310\nBut listen to Matt today, because I want you to see what it looks like when you\n\n26\n00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:14.920\npersevere\n\n27\n00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:19.890\nand learn from adversity, because those tough moments can actually reveal\n\n28\n00:01:19.890 --> 00:01:21.320\nincredible insights\n\n29\n00:01:21.320 --> 00:01:24.160\nand incredible opportunities.\n\n30\n00:01:24.160 --> 00:01:25.520\nSo let's get into it.\n\n31\n00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:37.600\nHere's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Matt Doherty.\n\n32\n00:01:37.600 --> 00:01:42.050\nWhen this airs, I can't help but bringing this up because you're an expert this\n\n33\n00:01:42.050 --> 00:01:42.720\narea,\n\n34\n00:01:42.720 --> 00:01:46.240\nwill be stepping into another year of March Madness.\n\n35\n00:01:46.240 --> 00:01:49.440\nWhat teams do you think will be battling it out in the end?\n\n36\n00:01:49.440 --> 00:01:52.560\nI just think that there's so much parity.\n\n37\n00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:56.710\nI've said that every year, but more and more, there's more and more parity, I\n\n38\n00:01:56.710 --> 00:01:57.440\nthink, with\n\n39\n00:01:57.440 --> 00:02:03.620\nthe transfer portal and the NIL out there that players now are going where the\n\n40\n00:02:03.620 --> 00:02:04.960\nbest opportunities\n\n41\n00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:08.960\nare in some of those opportunities are financial.\n\n42\n00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:12.670\nSo you see the SEC's really gotten strong over the last few years, because I\n\n43\n00:02:12.670 --> 00:02:13.200\nthink they're\n\n44\n00:02:13.200 --> 00:02:16.760\ncommitted to the NIL process a little bit more.\n\n45\n00:02:16.760 --> 00:02:22.320\nSo teams like Alabama, Tennessee have really ramped up their investment in\n\n46\n00:02:22.320 --> 00:02:23.120\nplayers.\n\n47\n00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:26.520\nSo who's going to be standing?\n\n48\n00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:28.320\nKansas has the team.\n\n49\n00:02:28.320 --> 00:02:29.640\nKentucky's very young.\n\n50\n00:02:29.640 --> 00:02:32.320\nKentucky beat Kansas earlier this year.\n\n51\n00:02:32.320 --> 00:02:33.320\nI like Purdue.\n\n52\n00:02:33.320 --> 00:02:37.600\nI think Matt painters a heck of a coach, and he's due to go to the final four.\n\n53\n00:02:37.600 --> 00:02:39.720\nAnd I wouldn't forget Rick Barnes at Tennessee.\n\n54\n00:02:39.720 --> 00:02:43.360\nI think Rick's done a really good job and has a nice team.\n\n55\n00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.620\nBut I tell you what, there's probably probably 15 to 20 teams that could win a\n\n56\n00:02:47.620 --> 00:02:49.400\nnational championship.\n\n57\n00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.140\nAnd you know, speaking of great teams in 1982, you won the national\n\n58\n00:02:53.140 --> 00:02:54.240\nchampionship at North\n\n59\n00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:59.840\nCarolina, where you played with the likes of Michael Jordan and James Worthy.\n\n60\n00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:03.960\nWhat's the behind the scenes story from that tournament that you love to tell?\n\n61\n00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:04.960\nOh gosh.\n\n62\n00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:09.800\nWell, we almost lost in the first round to James Madison.\n\n63\n00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:14.880\nWe blew them out 54 52, I think the score was.\n\n64\n00:03:14.880 --> 00:03:18.710\nYou know, there wasn't anything particular, David, but you've been on great\n\n65\n00:03:18.710 --> 00:03:19.400\nteams and you\n\n66\n00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:21.040\nmay have been on some bad teams.\n\n67\n00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:26.080\nAnd I think the chemistry is the thing that is so important.\n\n68\n00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:30.610\nWe had great players and James Worthy was our best player that year, even\n\n69\n00:03:30.610 --> 00:03:31.680\nthough Michael\n\n70\n00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:36.360\nJordan was on the team, Michael was a freshman, but if so, and selfish.\n\n71\n00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:42.140\nAnd I think that we really got along and we cared about one thing and that was\n\n72\n00:03:42.140 --> 00:03:42.680\nto win\n\n73\n00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:44.160\na national championship.\n\n74\n00:03:44.160 --> 00:03:50.000\nAnd so I don't know if there's any one behind the scenes thing that I can\n\n75\n00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.560\nremember, but that\n\n76\n00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:53.280\nwas about 40 years ago.\n\n77\n00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:58.000\nSo I'm not sure I remember what I had for breakfast.\n\n78\n00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.360\nYou know, as I understand it, you were the co-captain of the team that year.\n\n79\n00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.160\nAnd how did that kind of recognition drive you?\n\n80\n00:04:05.160 --> 00:04:09.920\nWell, you know, Coach Smith really invested in the seniors.\n\n81\n00:04:09.920 --> 00:04:15.110\nAnd so I was a captain co-captain my last year and that was a team with Michael\n\n82\n00:04:15.110 --> 00:04:15.720\nJordan\n\n83\n00:04:15.720 --> 00:04:16.720\nas a junior.\n\n84\n00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.240\nSam Perkins was a senior with me.\n\n85\n00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:24.800\nHe valued the upperclassmen and really, really gave credit to the upperclassmen\n\n86\n00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:26.000\nin victories\n\n87\n00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.880\nand took credit for losses in defeat.\n\n88\n00:04:29.880 --> 00:04:37.620\nAnd I think that, you know, good leaders do give credit to their employees, to\n\n89\n00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:38.120\ntheir\n\n90\n00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:41.760\nsoldiers, to the people out in the field.\n\n91\n00:04:41.760 --> 00:04:45.630\nAnd when things don't go well, they need to be, you know, being held\n\n92\n00:04:45.630 --> 00:04:46.840\naccountable, hold\n\n93\n00:04:46.840 --> 00:04:50.680\nthemselves accountable and not throw anybody under the bus.\n\n94\n00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:55.660\nSo there was an expectation that you earned, you earned your stripes at North\n\n95\n00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:56.600\nCarolina.\n\n96\n00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:00.390\nYou may play a lot as a freshman or sophomore, but you still had the biggest\n\n97\n00:05:00.390 --> 00:05:02.160\nvoice as a senior.\n\n98\n00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:07.520\nWhat's something about preparing for that night of a national championship game\n\n99\n00:05:07.520 --> 00:05:07.680\nthat\n\n100\n00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.920\nevery leader can learn from?\n\n101\n00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:12.080\nExperience helps.\n\n102\n00:05:12.080 --> 00:05:17.530\nWe were in the championship game the year before and we had three starters\n\n103\n00:05:17.530 --> 00:05:18.640\ncoming back.\n\n104\n00:05:18.640 --> 00:05:21.080\nPlus me, I was a six man, I played a lot.\n\n105\n00:05:21.080 --> 00:05:23.480\nAnd then we had Michael Jordan come in as a freshman.\n\n106\n00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.920\nSo the experience definitely helps.\n\n107\n00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:30.290\nAnd I remember when we were playing Georgetown and they had Patrick Ewing and I\n\n108\n00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:30.840\nthink John\n\n109\n00:05:30.840 --> 00:05:35.180\nThompson, their legendary coach said to Patrick, you know, anything around the\n\n110\n00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:36.040\nbasket block,\n\n111\n00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:37.920\nI don't care if it's goaltending.\n\n112\n00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:41.840\nAnd I remember they Patrick, I think, go attended the first four shots.\n\n113\n00:05:41.840 --> 00:05:45.880\nAnd I remember huddling the team up and kind of smiled and said, Hey, you know,\n\n114\n00:05:45.880 --> 00:05:46.280\nif they're\n\n115\n00:05:46.280 --> 00:05:49.480\ngoing to do that, just throw the ball into James, let them turn around and\n\n116\n00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:50.080\nshoot it.\n\n117\n00:05:50.080 --> 00:05:53.250\nIf they want to go attended, you know, that they're not going to intimidate us\n\n118\n00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:53.720\nbecause\n\n119\n00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:55.440\nwe've been there before.\n\n120\n00:05:55.440 --> 00:05:59.600\nAnd we had played against Ralph Sampson, who at Virginia was seven foot four.\n\n121\n00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.640\nSo Ewing's not intimidating us.\n\n122\n00:06:02.640 --> 00:06:05.040\nSo I think that experience helped.\n\n123\n00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:10.360\nBut the one comment, and I was blessed David to play for Dean Smith, legendary\n\n124\n00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:11.080\ncoach.\n\n125\n00:06:11.080 --> 00:06:16.530\nAnd I remember he said before the game, he said, there's eight billion people\n\n126\n00:06:16.530 --> 00:06:17.000\nin China\n\n127\n00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:19.760\nthat don't care who wins this game.\n\n128\n00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:23.880\nAnd basically go out and play, like relax.\n\n129\n00:06:23.880 --> 00:06:30.140\nAnd I think the thing that you want to do, there's two sides of a coin, you\n\n130\n00:06:30.140 --> 00:06:31.440\nknow, there's\n\n131\n00:06:31.440 --> 00:06:36.310\nfear and nerves, like, and turn the fear, the nerves into like butterflies,\n\n132\n00:06:36.310 --> 00:06:37.720\nlike get excited\n\n133\n00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.680\ninstead of fearful, don't get paralyzed.\n\n134\n00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:47.180\nAnd I think being in the moment and just letting yourself like I always try to\n\n135\n00:06:47.180 --> 00:06:48.000\nas an athlete\n\n136\n00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.360\nplay in the zone.\n\n137\n00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:50.360\nWhat is the zone?\n\n138\n00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.440\nWell, the zone is when things you don't have to think about things.\n\n139\n00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:56.480\nYou are present and you're not thinking about the next play.\n\n140\n00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:58.840\nYou're not thinking about the last play.\n\n141\n00:06:58.840 --> 00:07:04.460\nAnd I think that's what Coach Smith really had us do is to play in the moment\n\n142\n00:07:04.460 --> 00:07:04.920\nand you\n\n143\n00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.320\nwill make mistakes in business.\n\n144\n00:07:07.320 --> 00:07:09.000\nYou will make mistakes.\n\n145\n00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:15.470\nLearn from them, but don't let them fester so that they become a snowball of\n\n146\n00:07:15.470 --> 00:07:17.160\nthose mistakes.\n\n147\n00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:18.280\nMove on quickly.\n\n148\n00:07:18.280 --> 00:07:22.250\nAnd so I think the biggest thing is being present and just enjoying it, like\n\n149\n00:07:22.250 --> 00:07:23.200\ngoing out there,\n\n150\n00:07:23.200 --> 00:07:25.640\nthere's 63,000 people in that game.\n\n151\n00:07:25.640 --> 00:07:27.320\nIt's the largest crowd.\n\n152\n00:07:27.320 --> 00:07:32.200\nFirst time they played in a domed arena at that point and like enjoy it.\n\n153\n00:07:32.200 --> 00:07:36.160\nLook around and say, man, like this, who's that dude up there?\n\n154\n00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:37.240\nI can't see him.\n\n155\n00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:38.240\nHe could hardly see me.\n\n156\n00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.440\nI don't know how much pay for that ticket.\n\n157\n00:07:40.440 --> 00:07:44.200\nBut there's 63,000 people here instead of being fear.\n\n158\n00:07:44.200 --> 00:07:46.760\nOh my gosh, 63,000 people.\n\n159\n00:07:46.760 --> 00:07:48.640\nWhat if I make a mistake?\n\n160\n00:07:48.640 --> 00:07:49.640\nEnjoy it.\n\n161\n00:07:49.640 --> 00:07:51.140\nI think embrace the moment.\n\n162\n00:07:51.140 --> 00:07:52.140\nThat's great advice.\n\n163\n00:07:52.140 --> 00:07:56.210\nAnd I want to get into how you lead and all that you're doing at Dordi Coaching\n\n164\n00:07:56.210 --> 00:07:56.320\n.\n\n165\n00:07:56.320 --> 00:07:58.000\nBut first I want to take you back.\n\n166\n00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.600\nI know you're a big believer in meritocracy.\n\n167\n00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.280\nTell us a story from your upbringing that really drove that home for you.\n\n168\n00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:09.560\nThe park where I grew up playing basketball was three blocks from my house.\n\n169\n00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.560\nAnd I remember going there pretty much every day I could.\n\n170\n00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:18.080\nYou would choose sides and the best two best players would choose sides.\n\n171\n00:08:18.080 --> 00:08:20.480\nAnd then they'd go, okay, be like you and I choose sides.\n\n172\n00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.400\nAnd we choose for it.\n\n173\n00:08:22.400 --> 00:08:24.320\nI don't have people choose anymore.\n\n174\n00:08:24.320 --> 00:08:27.560\nBut like one finger or two fingers and I'd call odds or evens.\n\n175\n00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:30.960\nAnd if I want, I'd get the first pick and then you start negotiating.\n\n176\n00:08:30.960 --> 00:08:32.760\nIt's like, okay, you got the first pick.\n\n177\n00:08:32.760 --> 00:08:34.680\nI get the second two.\n\n178\n00:08:34.680 --> 00:08:39.760\nAnd then these are kids now, young people learning how to negotiate.\n\n179\n00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:42.440\nIt's not organized by adults.\n\n180\n00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:48.360\nAnd then if I felt that Joe was the best player and could help me win, I'm\n\n181\n00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:49.560\ngoing to pick Joe.\n\n182\n00:08:49.560 --> 00:08:50.640\nThen you pick your player.\n\n183\n00:08:50.640 --> 00:08:54.000\nThen we go down the line till we have five aside.\n\n184\n00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.490\nAnd then if you win, you stayed on the court and the loser sat and the next\n\n185\n00:08:58.490 --> 00:08:59.800\nteam came up.\n\n186\n00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:04.640\nAnd so if you could help of team win, you got to play.\n\n187\n00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:05.880\nThere's no politics.\n\n188\n00:09:05.880 --> 00:09:07.920\nIt's just meritocracy.\n\n189\n00:09:07.920 --> 00:09:10.200\nYou know, you earned the right to play.\n\n190\n00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:12.400\nYou earned the right to stay on the court.\n\n191\n00:09:12.400 --> 00:09:18.190\nWhether it was, you know, five young guys, three black guys, two white guys, it\n\n192\n00:09:18.190 --> 00:09:18.440\ndidn't\n\n193\n00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:19.440\nmatter.\n\n194\n00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:22.160\nIt just all about winning and staying on the court.\n\n195\n00:09:22.160 --> 00:09:24.240\nYou know, I used to work at Pepsi.\n\n196\n00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.300\nSo I got to ask you this when I, you know, I understand your dad was a Pepsi\n\n197\n00:09:28.300 --> 00:09:29.520\nroute salesman.\n\n198\n00:09:29.520 --> 00:09:31.320\nWould you learn watching him in action?\n\n199\n00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:32.320\nWow.\n\n200\n00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:34.920\nI wrote about this the other day.\n\n201\n00:09:34.920 --> 00:09:40.570\nMy dad, I was so blessed David and I know your dad moved a lot and, you know,\n\n202\n00:09:40.570 --> 00:09:41.120\nthat helped\n\n203\n00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.840\nyou develop relationships and, you know, you had to start a new a lot.\n\n204\n00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.160\nMy dad owned a Pepsi route back then you owned the route.\n\n205\n00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:53.040\nSo it was his business and a couple of things stand out.\n\n206\n00:09:53.040 --> 00:09:55.320\nHe got up early every day.\n\n207\n00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:59.800\nLike when I got up to go to school, he was already gone and it could be sunny\n\n208\n00:09:59.800 --> 00:10:00.080\nout.\n\n209\n00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:01.640\nIt could be blistering hot out.\n\n210\n00:10:01.640 --> 00:10:03.320\nIt could be snowing out.\n\n211\n00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:04.600\nIt could be raining out.\n\n212\n00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:05.760\nIt could be ice out.\n\n213\n00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:07.760\nHe went to work.\n\n214\n00:10:07.760 --> 00:10:10.900\nAnd I'd go two weeks out of the summer when I was old enough, say, fourth,\n\n215\n00:10:10.900 --> 00:10:11.640\nfifth, sixth\n\n216\n00:10:11.640 --> 00:10:13.200\ngrade, I'd help him.\n\n217\n00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:17.360\nAnd he had a guy at work with him, a guy named Willie House.\n\n218\n00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:21.320\nAnd we would get to the plant, Long Island City.\n\n219\n00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:22.520\nIt's an iconic sign.\n\n220\n00:10:22.520 --> 00:10:26.880\nAs you know, on the East River, we would load the truck.\n\n221\n00:10:26.880 --> 00:10:30.870\nWe would drive through the Midtown Tunnel and his route was in Greenwich\n\n222\n00:10:30.870 --> 00:10:31.400\nVillage.\n\n223\n00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:34.360\nI sat in the middle between he and the helper and the stick shift.\n\n224\n00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:39.530\nAnd we'd be bouncing on the cobblestone streets and we'd get out and we park or\n\n225\n00:10:39.530 --> 00:10:40.920\ndouble park.\n\n226\n00:10:40.920 --> 00:10:47.400\nAnd then we'd go to whatever, grocery store, diasstinos, a bodega, whatever.\n\n227\n00:10:47.400 --> 00:10:51.740\nAnd then you generally had to go down the basement, you know, like you see\n\n228\n00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:52.480\nthose metal\n\n229\n00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:56.370\nthings in a sidewalk, you'd open them up and then you had to go like straight\n\n230\n00:10:56.370 --> 00:10:57.520\ndown with\n\n231\n00:10:57.520 --> 00:11:00.800\na hand truck and get sowed down there.\n\n232\n00:11:00.800 --> 00:11:04.200\nAnd then sometimes I had to label them.\n\n233\n00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:08.760\nMy dad, I never saw him in a bad mood.\n\n234\n00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:09.760\nHe'd come home from work.\n\n235\n00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:13.360\nAnd if I had a ballgame, he was there.\n\n236\n00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.440\nMight be in his Pepsi uniform, but he was there.\n\n237\n00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:23.040\nAnd after my game, win or lose, he would say, good game, let's go get some ice\n\n238\n00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:23.720\ncream.\n\n239\n00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:25.800\nAnd we'd go to friend leasing, get some ice cream.\n\n240\n00:11:25.800 --> 00:11:30.720\nI just think his work ethic and he was always positive.\n\n241\n00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.120\nYou know, you were a McDonald's, all American in high school and then you go to\n\n242\n00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:36.080\nNorth Carolina\n\n243\n00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:41.240\nto play for, you know, Dean Smith, who you've already mentioned.\n\n244\n00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:46.840\nBut when you think about that time with Dean Smith at North Carolina, what\n\n245\n00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:47.640\nwould be the\n\n246\n00:11:47.640 --> 00:11:51.200\nsingle biggest lesson that you learn from him as a player?\n\n247\n00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.640\nI think it's hard to say.\n\n248\n00:11:54.640 --> 00:11:58.240\nAnd those lessons kind of evolve as you evolve in your life.\n\n249\n00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:04.040\nSo now as an executive coach and a keynote speaker, I talk a lot about culture.\n\n250\n00:12:04.040 --> 00:12:08.800\nAnd you know, for a while there, at a hard time defining culture and how to\n\n251\n00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:09.600\nimplement\n\n252\n00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:14.060\nit, Coach Smith would talk about praise the actions you want repeated and catch\n\n253\n00:12:14.060 --> 00:12:14.560\npeople\n\n254\n00:12:14.560 --> 00:12:16.360\ndoing something right.\n\n255\n00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:22.820\nAnd I think that I was a fine-the-flaw coach for a while and through some my\n\n256\n00:12:22.820 --> 00:12:23.960\nfailure and\n\n257\n00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:28.720\ngoing on a leadership journey that was brought to my attention by an executive\n\n258\n00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:29.200\ncoach.\n\n259\n00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.400\nAnd I try to be better at praising the actions you want repeated.\n\n260\n00:12:33.400 --> 00:12:35.480\nAnd so how do you drive a good culture?\n\n261\n00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:37.120\nIt starts with core values.\n\n262\n00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.960\nAnd at North Carolina, it was play hard, place smart play together.\n\n263\n00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:44.110\nAnd it was behaviors that were rooted in your core values like hit the first\n\n264\n00:12:44.110 --> 00:12:45.960\nopen man.\n\n265\n00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:51.980\nAnd then the hardest thing for any leader to do, I believe, is holding people\n\n266\n00:12:51.980 --> 00:12:53.080\naccountable\n\n267\n00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:57.230\nbecause inevitably somebody's going to show up late, somebody's going to take a\n\n268\n00:12:57.230 --> 00:12:58.160\nbad shot,\n\n269\n00:12:58.160 --> 00:13:03.800\nsomebody's going to do something that isn't something you approve of.\n\n270\n00:13:03.800 --> 00:13:08.360\nBut if you let it slide, your culture is what you allow.\n\n271\n00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:13.490\nSo I think driving a culture, establishing a culture is probably one of the\n\n272\n00:13:13.490 --> 00:13:14.200\nbiggest,\n\n273\n00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:17.080\nif not the biggest thing I learned from Dean Smith.\n\n274\n00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:23.000\nNow your first job out of college was as a bond salesman at Kidder P-Body.\n\n275\n00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:25.640\nHow'd that happen and what did it teach you?\n\n276\n00:13:25.640 --> 00:13:30.840\nI'd tell you what, I got cut by the NBA and I was devastated.\n\n277\n00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:35.760\nAnd I turned my back on basketball because I felt it turned its back on me.\n\n278\n00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:40.960\nI always was one to have backup plans and sometimes that's not a good thing.\n\n279\n00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:43.720\nSo I had an interest in business in Wall Street.\n\n280\n00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.720\nI knew some people there and I thought it'd be cool to make money and it was\n\n281\n00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:48.320\nsexy in the\n\n282\n00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.320\n80s, Gordon Gekko and all that stuff.\n\n283\n00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:53.480\nSo I went to Wall Street.\n\n284\n00:13:53.480 --> 00:14:00.450\nI quickly realized that I didn't like talking about bond yields, that I like to\n\n285\n00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:01.960\nsell something\n\n286\n00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:05.320\nthat's more tangible, that you can see, feel, or touch.\n\n287\n00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.920\nI didn't like selling, I had to sell again numbers.\n\n288\n00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:13.400\nSo I think it's important to learn what you don't like.\n\n289\n00:14:13.400 --> 00:14:17.400\nI also learned the value of phone sales.\n\n290\n00:14:17.400 --> 00:14:21.600\nThough I was institutional sales and Sam Morone was the sales manager, he was a\n\n291\n00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:22.280\nmarine tough\n\n292\n00:14:22.280 --> 00:14:23.840\nguy, good guy.\n\n293\n00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:28.680\nBut he said anytime you pick up the phone, make sure you're adding value.\n\n294\n00:14:28.680 --> 00:14:32.320\nLike don't call somebody, just say, \"Oh, just checking in.\n\n295\n00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.200\nBasically, you're going to throw me a trade today.\"\n\n296\n00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:38.900\nAnd then the last thing, and I still use this, when you get the order, hang up\n\n297\n00:14:38.900 --> 00:14:40.040\nthe phone.\n\n298\n00:14:40.040 --> 00:14:41.640\nDon't oversell.\n\n299\n00:14:41.640 --> 00:14:42.640\nRight?\n\n300\n00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:44.600\nI learned that and recruited.\n\n301\n00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:48.040\nI learned that now when somebody commits to my coaching practice.\n\n302\n00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:49.520\nI said, \"Okay, great.\n\n303\n00:14:49.520 --> 00:14:53.770\nWe'll send you the contract and look forward to seeing you following up next\n\n304\n00:14:53.770 --> 00:14:54.400\nweek.\"\n\n305\n00:14:54.400 --> 00:14:56.800\nYou oversell and all of a sudden someone's like, \"Oh, wait.\n\n306\n00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:57.800\nOh, really?\n\n307\n00:14:57.800 --> 00:15:01.800\nI have to come once a month for eight hours and I don't know.\n\n308\n00:15:01.800 --> 00:15:02.960\nLet me think about this.\"\n\n309\n00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:07.900\nSo the phone sales, adding value, knowing what you don't like and when you get\n\n310\n00:15:07.900 --> 00:15:08.240\nthe\n\n311\n00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:09.760\norder, hang up the phone.\n\n312\n00:15:09.760 --> 00:15:11.400\nThat's some good learning there.\n\n313\n00:15:11.400 --> 00:15:14.040\nWhat led you Matt down the path of coaching?\n\n314\n00:15:14.040 --> 00:15:16.240\nYeah, I think a couple things.\n\n315\n00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.000\nI was interested in broadcasting while I was working on Wall Street.\n\n316\n00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:26.280\nSo I went to St. Francis College and did the radio.\n\n317\n00:15:26.280 --> 00:15:31.510\nI was doing the radio and as I was doing the radio, I realized I wanted to be\n\n318\n00:15:31.510 --> 00:15:32.880\nin the huddle,\n\n319\n00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:35.640\nnot outside the huddle.\n\n320\n00:15:35.640 --> 00:15:40.630\nAnd so I started to fall back in love with basketball and then I quit my job\n\n321\n00:15:40.630 --> 00:15:41.360\nand moved\n\n322\n00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:46.640\nto Charlotte in 1989 thinking I was going to get into real estate business.\n\n323\n00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:51.280\nAnd a guy I was working for, Ed Sockwell, ran a search firm and gave me a part-\n\n324\n00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:51.700\ntime\n\n325\n00:15:51.700 --> 00:15:52.700\njob.\n\n326\n00:15:52.700 --> 00:15:57.600\nBut he also ran an AU team and he needed an eighth grade coach.\n\n327\n00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:58.640\nSo he asked me if I'd coach.\n\n328\n00:15:58.640 --> 00:16:01.000\nI said I would.\n\n329\n00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.360\nAnd I immediately fell in love with it.\n\n330\n00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:05.520\nI loved every part of it.\n\n331\n00:16:05.520 --> 00:16:11.800\nThe planning, the practices, the camaraderie, I enjoyed every part of it.\n\n332\n00:16:11.800 --> 00:16:17.040\nI was doing radio at Davidson at the time for the Davidson basketball team.\n\n333\n00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:21.850\nThey made a coaching change and hired Bob McKillop, who was my high school\n\n334\n00:16:21.850 --> 00:16:22.400\ncoach on\n\n335\n00:16:22.400 --> 00:16:23.400\nLong Island.\n\n336\n00:16:23.400 --> 00:16:27.120\nAnd Bob then went on to be the all-time winning coach at Davidson.\n\n337\n00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.160\nHe'll be in the Hall of Fame soon.\n\n338\n00:16:29.160 --> 00:16:32.640\nAnd most notably coach Steph Curry at Davidson College.\n\n339\n00:16:32.640 --> 00:16:35.400\nSo yeah, I just rolled into it.\n\n340\n00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:37.000\nAnd I loved coaching.\n\n341\n00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:38.000\nAnd I loved it.\n\n342\n00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.400\nI remember I was coaching in Kansas for Roy Williams for seven years.\n\n343\n00:16:42.400 --> 00:16:46.080\nAnd lottery was up to some crazy number, let's say 100 million.\n\n344\n00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:50.000\nAnd I was sitting around a pool with a couple of friends.\n\n345\n00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.000\nAnd the topic comes up.\n\n346\n00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:54.120\nLike what would you do if you hit the lottery?\n\n347\n00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:57.400\nAnd one guy says, \"Oh, I quit my job and I do this.\"\n\n348\n00:16:57.400 --> 00:16:59.760\nAnd another guy says, \"I quit my job and do that.\"\n\n349\n00:16:59.760 --> 00:17:00.760\nAnd it gets to me.\n\n350\n00:17:00.760 --> 00:17:04.920\nAnd I thought for a minute, I said, \"I keep doing what I'm doing.\"\n\n351\n00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:09.160\nLike that's when you know you're really passionate about what you're doing.\n\n352\n00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:10.160\nAbsolutely.\n\n353\n00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.560\nAnd you started out, as you said, as an assistant at Davidson and then on to\n\n354\n00:17:14.560 --> 00:17:15.320\nKansas where you\n\n355\n00:17:15.320 --> 00:17:19.920\nspent seven years working for Roy Williams, another great coach.\n\n356\n00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.680\nAnd you gained this incredible reputation for being a world-class recruiter.\n\n357\n00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.480\nWhat did you do to make recruiting one of your superpowers?\n\n358\n00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:32.150\nIt's funny because I didn't like selling bond yields, but I love selling the\n\n359\n00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:32.920\nopportunity\n\n360\n00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:35.880\nto go to the school I was working at.\n\n361\n00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.900\nAnd I wasn't a good salesman on Wall Street, but I was a good salesman in\n\n362\n00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:41.120\ncollege athletics.\n\n363\n00:17:41.120 --> 00:17:45.760\nYou know, someone asked me this recently, \"What are your strengths?\"\n\n364\n00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:47.880\nAnd I had to think about it.\n\n365\n00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:52.650\nAnd I thought, you know, I'm pretty good at building trusting authentic\n\n366\n00:17:52.650 --> 00:17:55.800\nrelationships quickly.\n\n367\n00:17:55.800 --> 00:17:57.760\nAnd I enjoy people.\n\n368\n00:17:57.760 --> 00:18:00.000\nI enjoy learning about people.\n\n369\n00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.490\nAnd I think that growing up with the way I grew up, witnessing my parents, who\n\n370\n00:18:03.490 --> 00:18:04.040\nwe were\n\n371\n00:18:04.040 --> 00:18:08.320\nalways the last car to leave church at St. Rafeuels on Sundays because they\n\n372\n00:18:08.320 --> 00:18:08.880\nwere in the\n\n373\n00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:11.200\npark a lot talking to everybody.\n\n374\n00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.560\nSo I had that model.\n\n375\n00:18:13.560 --> 00:18:16.360\nAnd so I could connect with people.\n\n376\n00:18:16.360 --> 00:18:21.240\nAnd it could be, you know, some rich family in New York City.\n\n377\n00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:23.120\nIt could be a poor family in L.A.\n\n378\n00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:27.640\nIt could be, you know, a white family, a black family, a farmer in Kansas.\n\n379\n00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.600\nIt could be, and I think I had ability and enjoyed doing that.\n\n380\n00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:33.160\nAnd also it was competitive.\n\n381\n00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:35.040\nLike I like to win.\n\n382\n00:18:35.040 --> 00:18:39.240\nAnd, you know, okay, so what's your competition doing?\n\n383\n00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:41.960\nAnd, you know, and you find out that.\n\n384\n00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:46.370\nOne thing I'm good at now is asking questions, okay, as an executive coach that\n\n385\n00:18:46.370 --> 00:18:47.280\n's helpful.\n\n386\n00:18:47.280 --> 00:18:49.520\nWell, as a recruiter, that's helpful.\n\n387\n00:18:49.520 --> 00:18:53.470\nSo you know, if I'm recruiting you, David, tell me what are you looking for in\n\n388\n00:18:53.470 --> 00:18:54.080\na school?\n\n389\n00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:55.080\nOkay.\n\n390\n00:18:55.080 --> 00:18:56.920\nWhat's important to your family?\n\n391\n00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.600\nTell me about, you know, your dreams.\n\n392\n00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:01.480\nGive me a list of your favorites.\n\n393\n00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.960\nAnd then I would connect.\n\n394\n00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.280\nAnd you know, I get a list and I was detailed.\n\n395\n00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:10.440\nI'd make sure your names were spelled right.\n\n396\n00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:16.550\nAnd I would then really pursue you and the people around you and make sure that\n\n397\n00:19:16.550 --> 00:19:17.360\nyou control\n\n398\n00:19:17.360 --> 00:19:18.360\nwhat you control.\n\n399\n00:19:18.360 --> 00:19:20.360\nAnd no one was going to outwork me.\n\n400\n00:19:20.360 --> 00:19:27.660\nAnd I thought I built authentic relationships pretty quickly and developed the\n\n401\n00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:28.600\ntrust.\n\n402\n00:19:28.600 --> 00:19:36.530\nWell, Dan Hurley and his Yukon Huskies have gotten a coveted number one seed in\n\n403\n00:19:36.530 --> 00:19:37.440\nthis year's\n\n404\n00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:38.600\ntournament.\n\n405\n00:19:38.600 --> 00:19:43.280\nAnd now it's time to see if they can go back to back as national champions like\n\n406\n00:19:43.280 --> 00:19:43.920\nmy Kansas\n\n407\n00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.440\nCity Chiefs.\n\n408\n00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:50.290\nIf you missed it, I had a great conversation with Dan earlier this year where\n\n409\n00:19:50.290 --> 00:19:50.880\nwe talked\n\n410\n00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:55.590\nabout what it takes to win a title and why you've got to keep pushing yourself\n\n411\n00:19:55.590 --> 00:19:56.160\neven after\n\n412\n00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:57.640\nbig success.\n\n413\n00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:02.500\nLike anyone else that pushes themselves hard, you know, the goal post always\n\n414\n00:20:02.500 --> 00:20:03.120\nmoves.\n\n415\n00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:06.880\nSo for me, I think I always dreamed the winning a national championship.\n\n416\n00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:11.800\nYou know, now you know, now you dream of becoming a Hall of Fame coach.\n\n417\n00:20:11.800 --> 00:20:16.800\nSo, you know, I just think that the goal post always move and you always want\n\n418\n00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:18.520\nthe next thing.\n\n419\n00:20:18.520 --> 00:20:21.800\nSo scroll back in the feed to episode 169.\n\n420\n00:20:21.800 --> 00:20:26.290\nIf you want to hear the whole conversation with Dan Hurley here on Howl Eaters\n\n421\n00:20:26.290 --> 00:20:28.640\nLead.\n\n422\n00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:36.640\nYou had some really creative ways to bring your players in and get them\n\n423\n00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:38.280\nattracted to\n\n424\n00:20:38.280 --> 00:20:41.560\nyou, including an air sickness bag.\n\n425\n00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:44.440\nTell us about that one.\n\n426\n00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:46.960\nWell, you make it personal, right?\n\n427\n00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.880\nSo how do you stand out?\n\n428\n00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:51.480\nHow do you stand out from your competition?\n\n429\n00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:52.800\nYou know, you're marketing, right?\n\n430\n00:20:52.800 --> 00:20:54.160\nSo I wanted to stand out.\n\n431\n00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.670\nSo I'm in the plane and I see this air sickness bag and I get obsessed and I\n\n432\n00:20:58.670 --> 00:20:59.400\nthink you have\n\n433\n00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.800\nto be somewhat obsessed is a strong word.\n\n434\n00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:05.460\nBut like if you're passionate about what you're doing, you're thinking about it\n\n435\n00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:07.120\nall the time.\n\n436\n00:21:07.120 --> 00:21:10.080\nAnd so I'm in a plane and I see an air sickness bag.\n\n437\n00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:12.080\nI think I have a decent sense of humor.\n\n438\n00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:17.000\nSo I write on the bag saying, David, I'd be sick if you don't come to Kansas\n\n439\n00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:17.400\nand send\n\n440\n00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:18.400\nthat to you.\n\n441\n00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.800\nSo that's different, right?\n\n442\n00:21:19.800 --> 00:21:24.290\nBecause the top recruits in the country are getting maybe a hundred letters a\n\n443\n00:21:24.290 --> 00:21:25.080\nday, maybe\n\n444\n00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:26.080\n50.\n\n445\n00:21:26.080 --> 00:21:28.760\nSo I want them to open my letter.\n\n446\n00:21:28.760 --> 00:21:32.480\nAnd when they see that and they smile and laugh, they're going to show it to\n\n447\n00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.700\ntheir family.\n\n448\n00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:38.240\nAnd I'm going to separate myself from the competition.\n\n449\n00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:39.240\nI love that.\n\n450\n00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.660\nBut Matt, you paid your dues as an assistant and then you were offered the head\n\n451\n00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:43.160\ncoaching\n\n452\n00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:45.120\nposition at Notre Dame.\n\n453\n00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:51.700\nAnd I got to ask you, what was it like going into Notre Dame, which is a\n\n454\n00:21:51.700 --> 00:21:53.600\nfootball school?\n\n455\n00:21:53.600 --> 00:21:55.000\nIt's not a basketball school.\n\n456\n00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:56.840\nIt certainly wasn't back then.\n\n457\n00:21:56.840 --> 00:22:01.320\nAnd you know, you're going to be the basketball coach now at Notre Dame.\n\n458\n00:22:01.320 --> 00:22:02.320\nWhat's that like?\n\n459\n00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:09.080\nWell, digger Phelps had success there in the 70s and the early 80s.\n\n460\n00:22:09.080 --> 00:22:13.560\nIt's maybe the most prestigious university, one of them in the world.\n\n461\n00:22:13.560 --> 00:22:17.680\nThere's benefits to being second fiddle at a school.\n\n462\n00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.480\nYou know, you can maybe withstand a downturn in the market a little longer.\n\n463\n00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:27.880\nThe heat's not on you, but yet you can build a really good program.\n\n464\n00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.200\nAnd Billy Donovan did that at Florida.\n\n465\n00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.780\nYou know, Florida was considered a football school and he won back-to-back\n\n466\n00:22:33.780 --> 00:22:35.240\nnational championships.\n\n467\n00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:41.040\nSo the thing is to turn, take advantage of what you have, right?\n\n468\n00:22:41.040 --> 00:22:44.720\nAnd so you have this noteworthy university.\n\n469\n00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:49.680\nYou have these alumni all over the country.\n\n470\n00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.320\nAnd then you have fun with it.\n\n471\n00:22:51.320 --> 00:22:57.810\nLike, I remember taking kids on campus and, you know, they call it Touchdown\n\n472\n00:22:57.810 --> 00:22:59.400\nJesus, right?\n\n473\n00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.320\nI'd walk a kid on campus.\n\n474\n00:23:01.320 --> 00:23:02.800\nYou know, we call that here.\n\n475\n00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:04.160\nWe call that three-point Jesus.\n\n476\n00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:08.000\nI mean, they love basketball here at Notre Dame.\n\n477\n00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:14.310\nAnd so I went to the student body and I, after practice in the fall, I met with\n\n478\n00:23:14.310 --> 00:23:15.640\nthree houses.\n\n479\n00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:16.640\nThey don't have fraternities.\n\n480\n00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:22.160\nThey have basically dorms that are, you know, men and then women's dorms.\n\n481\n00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.920\nAnd so there are a lot of pride in those dorms.\n\n482\n00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:32.540\nAnd so I'd go into three dorms a night after practice and get them fired up and\n\n483\n00:23:32.540 --> 00:23:33.120\ntell them\n\n484\n00:23:33.120 --> 00:23:36.160\nthe importance that they're going to make in our program.\n\n485\n00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:37.440\nBusiness is a contact sport.\n\n486\n00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.720\nAnd I met with some people today.\n\n487\n00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.720\nI'm like, what is your vision for your company?\n\n488\n00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.080\nLike, why should people want to follow you?\n\n489\n00:23:43.080 --> 00:23:45.320\nWhat excites your team?\n\n490\n00:23:45.320 --> 00:23:48.360\nAnd I told our team that, you know, I had three goals.\n\n491\n00:23:48.360 --> 00:23:50.360\nYou know, our first goal is to get better today.\n\n492\n00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:52.520\nSecond one was to win our next game.\n\n493\n00:23:52.520 --> 00:23:56.160\nThird was to win the Big East regular season.\n\n494\n00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.180\nFourth was to win the Big East tournament and fifth was to win a national\n\n495\n00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:00.080\nchampionship.\n\n496\n00:24:00.080 --> 00:24:03.720\nAnd I said, we're going to put Notre Dame basketball back on the map.\n\n497\n00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.240\nYou know, paint that pitcher and get them to buy in.\n\n498\n00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.280\nAnd once you get buy in, now you can hold them accountable.\n\n499\n00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:14.060\nThis when there's a bad practice, say, Hey guys, I thought you said you wanted\n\n500\n00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:14.320\nto win\n\n501\n00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:15.320\na national championship.\n\n502\n00:24:15.320 --> 00:24:18.240\nI thought you said you want to put Notre Dame back on the map.\n\n503\n00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.720\nThis type of behavior today isn't going to do it.\n\n504\n00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:26.310\nAnd you got off to a flying start because your very first game was against Ohio\n\n505\n00:24:26.310 --> 00:24:26.880\nState,\n\n506\n00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:30.200\nwhich happened to be ranked fifth in the country at the time.\n\n507\n00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:31.360\nAnd you won.\n\n508\n00:24:31.360 --> 00:24:35.280\nYou know, how do you celebrate with your players after a big win like that?\n\n509\n00:24:35.280 --> 00:24:37.480\nWell, take a step back.\n\n510\n00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:42.590\nFive days prior, we had played an exhibition game against a team called\n\n511\n00:24:42.590 --> 00:24:43.880\nMarathon Oil.\n\n512\n00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:48.840\nNow, a lot of teams were put together and sponsored by different companies.\n\n513\n00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:53.510\nAnd one was Marathon Oil and they would go around and play, get former college\n\n514\n00:24:53.510 --> 00:24:53.720\nplayers\n\n515\n00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.720\nand play against college teams.\n\n516\n00:24:55.720 --> 00:25:00.840\nAnd you allowed two exhibition games before the season started.\n\n517\n00:25:00.840 --> 00:25:02.560\nOhio State played Marathon Oil.\n\n518\n00:25:02.560 --> 00:25:09.080\nI think the night before us and beat them by 25, we played them and lost by 25.\n\n519\n00:25:09.080 --> 00:25:12.400\nAnd the next day we're supposed to have off.\n\n520\n00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:17.120\nAnd I look at the paper and the paper in the South Ben Tribune reads, you know,\n\n521\n00:25:17.120 --> 00:25:17.760\nthe subtitle\n\n522\n00:25:17.760 --> 00:25:21.960\nwas the lackadaisical effort dunes the Irish.\n\n523\n00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.880\nMy body started to get warm.\n\n524\n00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:28.320\nAnd then hot and smoke was coming out of my ears.\n\n525\n00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:32.740\nSo I said to my coaches, I said, we're going to have practice today, but no\n\n526\n00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:35.120\nbasketballs.\n\n527\n00:25:35.120 --> 00:25:39.320\nAnd so the players showed up and I said, you know, guys, I'm called a lot of\n\n528\n00:25:39.320 --> 00:25:40.080\nthings,\n\n529\n00:25:40.080 --> 00:25:42.400\nbut you know, lackadaisical is not one of them.\n\n530\n00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:44.040\nI said, we're going to play hard.\n\n531\n00:25:44.040 --> 00:25:46.320\nI use coaches.\n\n532\n00:25:46.320 --> 00:25:48.840\nCore values play hard, play smart, play together.\n\n533\n00:25:48.840 --> 00:25:51.040\nAnd I said, that wasn't it.\n\n534\n00:25:51.040 --> 00:25:53.560\nI had raised a million dollars to get new locker room.\n\n535\n00:25:53.560 --> 00:25:55.840\nI said, I raised a million dollars for you guys.\n\n536\n00:25:55.840 --> 00:25:59.840\nI said, I spend more time with you guys than my family.\n\n537\n00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:01.040\nI did make it personal.\n\n538\n00:26:01.040 --> 00:26:03.280\nI said, you're going to give me that.\n\n539\n00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:04.800\nYou're going to give us that?\n\n540\n00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:05.800\nNo.\n\n541\n00:26:05.800 --> 00:26:07.960\nOn the baseline.\n\n542\n00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:14.360\nAnd they ran sprints and they ran sprints and they ran sprints.\n\n543\n00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:18.630\nAnd they ran some more sprints and to the point where some guys were falling\n\n544\n00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:19.120\nout and\n\n545\n00:26:19.120 --> 00:26:21.520\nI said, fine, get out.\n\n546\n00:26:21.520 --> 00:26:22.640\nYou know, you're not tough enough.\n\n547\n00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.120\nGet out.\n\n548\n00:26:24.120 --> 00:26:27.840\nAnd we ran for about, I don't know, an hour.\n\n549\n00:26:27.840 --> 00:26:29.640\nFinally, it was done with them.\n\n550\n00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:30.640\nThey didn't like me.\n\n551\n00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.720\nI didn't like them.\n\n552\n00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:38.160\nFive days later, we go into Columbus, Ohio beat number five, Ohio State, Ohio\n\n553\n00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:38.600\nState\n\n554\n00:26:38.600 --> 00:26:40.800\non the last second shot.\n\n555\n00:26:40.800 --> 00:26:43.040\nI'm getting goosebumps talking about it right now.\n\n556\n00:26:43.040 --> 00:26:44.040\nWent into the locker room.\n\n557\n00:26:44.040 --> 00:26:48.840\nI remember talking to Bill Raftery after the game with my son in my arm.\n\n558\n00:26:48.840 --> 00:26:52.840\nI was on ESPN and they're in the locker room.\n\n559\n00:26:52.840 --> 00:26:55.920\nThey came out into the hallway to greet me.\n\n560\n00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.280\nAnd you know, that's a beautiful thing about sports.\n\n561\n00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:03.620\nYou know, you get high highs, you know, you get some low lows, but those\n\n562\n00:27:03.620 --> 00:27:04.520\nmoments, very\n\n563\n00:27:04.520 --> 00:27:11.240\nspecial and the players then we had a bus ride about whatever it was back to\n\n564\n00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:12.800\nSouth Bend.\n\n565\n00:27:12.800 --> 00:27:16.200\nWhen it got to the locker room, they wrote 304 on the whiteboard.\n\n566\n00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:22.480\nWell, 304 apparently by their calculation was the number of sprints they ran.\n\n567\n00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:26.400\nAnd so that was kind of our calling card the rest of the year.\n\n568\n00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:27.720\nThey put it on their sneakers.\n\n569\n00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:29.400\nThey would talk about 304, 304.\n\n570\n00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:33.560\nLike if we can do that, we've got enough in the tank to play hard tonight.\n\n571\n00:27:33.560 --> 00:27:35.960\nAnd I love coaching that team.\n\n572\n00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:37.520\nI love coaching Notre Dame.\n\n573\n00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:40.480\nAnd in some ways, I wish I stayed there forever.\n\n574\n00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:43.860\nYou turned the program around and you didn't win the national championship that\n\n575\n00:27:43.860 --> 00:27:44.280\nyear, but\n\n576\n00:27:44.280 --> 00:27:48.560\nyou did take Notre Dame to the all the way to the finals of the NIT tournament.\n\n577\n00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:52.730\nAnd then just after one season at Notre Dame, you know, taking on this new job,\n\n578\n00:27:52.730 --> 00:27:53.200\nyou get\n\n579\n00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:57.400\na shot to become a head coach at North Carolina.\n\n580\n00:27:57.400 --> 00:27:59.600\nHow did you process that decision?\n\n581\n00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:04.200\nYou know what's weird in corporate America, I imagine you have more time to\n\n582\n00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:05.440\nmake a decision.\n\n583\n00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:11.140\nIn college athletics, you really have a short window, maybe two to seven days\n\n584\n00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:11.400\nbefore you\n\n585\n00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:16.040\ncan make a decision because recruiting and you're afraid of players defecting\n\n586\n00:28:16.040 --> 00:28:16.320\nfrom your\n\n587\n00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:18.120\nold place.\n\n588\n00:28:18.120 --> 00:28:21.240\nAnd so you really need to process it quickly.\n\n589\n00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:25.940\nAnd the challenge for me that I do believe that we all need personal board of\n\n590\n00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:26.880\ndirectors,\n\n591\n00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:27.880\nright?\n\n592\n00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:32.660\nSo somebody not emotionally tied to your organization, but tied to you and\n\n593\n00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:34.120\nhelping you make good\n\n594\n00:28:34.120 --> 00:28:35.960\ndecisions.\n\n595\n00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:39.680\nThe problem with me at that point was my personal board of directors was Roy\n\n596\n00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:40.640\nWilliams and Dean\n\n597\n00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:41.800\nSmith.\n\n598\n00:28:41.800 --> 00:28:43.560\nAnd so they both had something at stake.\n\n599\n00:28:43.560 --> 00:28:45.720\nRoy turned the job down at North Carolina.\n\n600\n00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:46.720\nHe was at Kansas.\n\n601\n00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:49.320\nHe turned the job down to go back to North Carolina.\n\n602\n00:28:49.320 --> 00:28:54.940\nSo Dean Smith is now calling me and having Michael Jordan call me to take the\n\n603\n00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:55.680\njob at North\n\n604\n00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:56.760\nCarolina.\n\n605\n00:28:56.760 --> 00:29:03.280\nSo where did I go to get objective feedback on if this is the right thing to do\n\n606\n00:29:03.280 --> 00:29:03.280\n?\n\n607\n00:29:03.280 --> 00:29:04.760\nI didn't have it.\n\n608\n00:29:04.760 --> 00:29:05.760\nI didn't have it.\n\n609\n00:29:05.760 --> 00:29:10.960\nSo I had to go through the process almost alone.\n\n610\n00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:14.680\nI mean, I did talk with my wife and Dick Fytal's calling me.\n\n611\n00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:15.680\nHe's a Notre Dame fan.\n\n612\n00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:17.320\nHe wants me to stay at Notre Dame.\n\n613\n00:29:17.320 --> 00:29:21.080\nYou know, the AD at Notre Dame obviously wants me to stay at Notre Dame.\n\n614\n00:29:21.080 --> 00:29:23.080\nAnd so I just didn't know where to turn.\n\n615\n00:29:23.080 --> 00:29:25.560\nSo I went to the grotto at Notre Dame.\n\n616\n00:29:25.560 --> 00:29:31.550\nI prayed and then your mind starts playing tricks on you to have good options\n\n617\n00:29:31.550 --> 00:29:32.400\nis a burden.\n\n618\n00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:36.340\nLike sometimes it's better not to have options and just work your tail off at\n\n619\n00:29:36.340 --> 00:29:36.960\nthe job you\n\n620\n00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:37.960\nhave.\n\n621\n00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:40.400\nBut when you have options, that can be a burden.\n\n622\n00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:46.960\nSo I remember, you know, do I stay at Notre Dame or go to North Carolina?\n\n623\n00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.280\nAnd I'm saying, I need a sign.\n\n624\n00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:51.400\nYou know, I went to the grotto, prayed and I'm thinking, God, give me a sign.\n\n625\n00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:54.770\nAnd I'm in Walmart and I'm walking to Iowa, Walmart and the guy turns the\n\n626\n00:29:54.770 --> 00:29:55.360\ncorner.\n\n627\n00:29:55.360 --> 00:29:57.800\nHe's wearing a UMC shirt.\n\n628\n00:29:57.800 --> 00:29:59.600\nLike, that's a sign.\n\n629\n00:29:59.600 --> 00:30:00.600\nGuy at Walmart.\n\n630\n00:30:00.600 --> 00:30:01.600\nWear a Carolina shirt.\n\n631\n00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:03.520\nI'm going to Chapel Hill.\n\n632\n00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:04.520\nYeah.\n\n633\n00:30:04.520 --> 00:30:09.350\nI mean, it was, it was idiotic, but it was crazy, but it was probably too much\n\n634\n00:30:09.350 --> 00:30:09.920\nto turn\n\n635\n00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:10.920\ndown.\n\n636\n00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:14.640\nI've heard you talk about, read about you bringing what you thought North\n\n637\n00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.480\nCarolina needed\n\n638\n00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.520\nat the time was accountability and toughness.\n\n639\n00:30:18.520 --> 00:30:20.920\nYou know, how'd you go about that?\n\n640\n00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:24.960\nManaging change is an art form.\n\n641\n00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.590\nAnd I talked about in the book you referenced earlier, the six nose of\n\n642\n00:30:29.590 --> 00:30:30.920\nleadership, K and\n\n643\n00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:31.920\nUWS.\n\n644\n00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.040\nAnd the first one is knowing yourself.\n\n645\n00:30:34.040 --> 00:30:35.600\nThe second one is knowing your team.\n\n646\n00:30:35.600 --> 00:30:39.320\nThe third one is knowing your environment.\n\n647\n00:30:39.320 --> 00:30:46.480\nAnd then knowing your vision, knowing your industry, mining for the truth, the\n\n648\n00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:46.600\nenvironment.\n\n649\n00:30:46.600 --> 00:30:50.200\nNorth Carolina needed the same kind of kick in the pants.\n\n650\n00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:54.750\nI felt that Notre Dame needed in terms of an injection of toughness and\n\n651\n00:30:54.750 --> 00:30:56.120\ncompetitiveness.\n\n652\n00:30:56.120 --> 00:30:59.520\nThe problem was North Carolina had success.\n\n653\n00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:03.000\nNorth Carolina had gone to the final four of the year before.\n\n654\n00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:06.320\nThey had gone to the final four or two years prior.\n\n655\n00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:10.360\nAnd there was basically massive success for 36 straight years.\n\n656\n00:31:10.360 --> 00:31:16.080\nAnd there was a lot of people still in place at Notre Dame.\n\n657\n00:31:16.080 --> 00:31:18.320\nNot as many people cared.\n\n658\n00:31:18.320 --> 00:31:21.960\nThey needed change and they knew they needed change.\n\n659\n00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:27.700\nSo I had kind of the green light to impose my will on the program where North\n\n660\n00:31:27.700 --> 00:31:28.520\nCarolina\n\n661\n00:31:28.520 --> 00:31:29.960\nI didn't.\n\n662\n00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.400\nSo my style was not appreciated.\n\n663\n00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:35.400\nAnd that didn't show up until you lost.\n\n664\n00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:36.400\nRight?\n\n665\n00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:37.400\nI mean, it's okay.\n\n666\n00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:39.080\nWinning soothes everything.\n\n667\n00:31:39.080 --> 00:31:43.560\nBut once you start losing, now all of a sudden the chirping starts.\n\n668\n00:31:43.560 --> 00:31:46.440\nAnd I didn't have the internal support.\n\n669\n00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:50.720\nI don't think at North Carolina that I did at Notre Dame.\n\n670\n00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:55.650\nAnd so if you have some people that are kind of not supporting your message and\n\n671\n00:31:55.650 --> 00:31:56.360\nmaybe even\n\n672\n00:31:56.360 --> 00:32:00.800\nworse, stirring a fire, it's hard to gain traction.\n\n673\n00:32:00.800 --> 00:32:05.520\nAnd I think that's where I wasn't good at managing the change.\n\n674\n00:32:05.520 --> 00:32:08.120\nI should have gone slower with change.\n\n675\n00:32:08.120 --> 00:32:14.180\nI should have deferred to Coach Smith because he was the legend in the building\n\n676\n00:32:14.180 --> 00:32:15.120\n, his name\n\n677\n00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:17.160\nis on the building.\n\n678\n00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:19.560\nAnd I probably should have deferred to him.\n\n679\n00:32:19.560 --> 00:32:23.340\nAlthough in the recruiting process, he said to me, it's your program run at how\n\n680\n00:32:23.340 --> 00:32:23.800\nyou see\n\n681\n00:32:23.800 --> 00:32:25.360\nfit.\n\n682\n00:32:25.360 --> 00:32:26.800\nAnd I'm a literal person.\n\n683\n00:32:26.800 --> 00:32:30.800\nSo I took that literally from a man that I trusted.\n\n684\n00:32:30.800 --> 00:32:32.160\nSo I look back and I cringe.\n\n685\n00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:33.160\nI was just naive.\n\n686\n00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:34.840\nI think I was really naive.\n\n687\n00:32:34.840 --> 00:32:38.880\nWell, your first year, give you a little credit here, it was a slam dunk.\n\n688\n00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:42.640\nI mean, you kick butt and you were named the National Coach of the Year.\n\n689\n00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:44.360\nI mean, your first year.\n\n690\n00:32:44.360 --> 00:32:45.960\nSo now you've been a head coach.\n\n691\n00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:48.440\nThe first one, you turn around Notre Dame.\n\n692\n00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:52.440\nSecond year, you become the National Coach of the Year.\n\n693\n00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:54.400\nHow did that impact you?\n\n694\n00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:55.720\nIt felt great, obviously.\n\n695\n00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:58.880\nWe beat Duke of Duke for the first time in five years.\n\n696\n00:32:58.880 --> 00:32:59.880\nIt was magical.\n\n697\n00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:02.910\nYou know, we were on, I think, one 18-game winning streak, one of the longest\n\n698\n00:33:02.910 --> 00:33:03.360\nwinning\n\n699\n00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:05.320\nstreaks in Carolina history.\n\n700\n00:33:05.320 --> 00:33:07.040\nIt was awesome.\n\n701\n00:33:07.040 --> 00:33:12.280\nBut as a coach, when your team is doing well, you try to tighten the screws\n\n702\n00:33:12.280 --> 00:33:13.480\nbecause things\n\n703\n00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:14.480\nget loose.\n\n704\n00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.280\nAll of a sudden, people think, oh, you know, we're successful.\n\n705\n00:33:17.280 --> 00:33:18.520\nWe're winning.\n\n706\n00:33:18.520 --> 00:33:22.810\nSo you know, we could take a little time off, maybe show up a little late or\n\n707\n00:33:22.810 --> 00:33:23.480\ncome back from\n\n708\n00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:28.860\nlunch a half hour late or cut out a little early on Friday to go play golf or,\n\n709\n00:33:28.860 --> 00:33:29.400\nyou know,\n\n710\n00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:33.080\nno, no, no, that's when you need to tighten the screws.\n\n711\n00:33:33.080 --> 00:33:38.440\nAnd I tried to do that with my team and because I could tell we weren't getting\n\n712\n00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:39.200\nbetter and\n\n713\n00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:45.200\nto tail into that winning streak, but they took it as like I was too hard on\n\n714\n00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:45.560\nthem.\n\n715\n00:33:45.560 --> 00:33:49.360\nAnd maybe I didn't deliver it in an emotionally intelligent way.\n\n716\n00:33:49.360 --> 00:33:51.160\nBut I remember a game at Wake Forest.\n\n717\n00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.200\nWe beat Wake Forest at Wake Forest.\n\n718\n00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.680\nAnd after the game, I was like disappointed.\n\n719\n00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.840\nLike guys, we didn't play well.\n\n720\n00:33:56.840 --> 00:33:57.840\nWe're lucky.\n\n721\n00:33:57.840 --> 00:33:59.640\nWe only reason we won this game is we're more talented.\n\n722\n00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:04.400\nAnd if we continue to play this way, it's not going to end well.\n\n723\n00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:12.670\nAnd we then lost a game at Clemson and then only won five or our last 10 games\n\n724\n00:34:12.670 --> 00:34:13.360\nbecause\n\n725\n00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:18.450\nwe kept going this way and we hit a bottom and it just took us too long to try\n\n726\n00:34:18.450 --> 00:34:19.120\nto write\n\n727\n00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:21.880\nthe ship and was never able to write the ship.\n\n728\n00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.480\nAnd so it was disappointing at the end of the season.\n\n729\n00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:25.640\nStill coach of the year.\n\n730\n00:34:25.640 --> 00:34:30.030\nAnd I found it interesting that before you took over as the head coach North\n\n731\n00:34:30.030 --> 00:34:30.800\nCarolina,\n\n732\n00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:34.910\nyou told the athletic director that your second season there was going to be\n\n733\n00:34:34.910 --> 00:34:35.520\ntough.\n\n734\n00:34:35.520 --> 00:34:37.280\nI mean, you're already laying the track.\n\n735\n00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.400\nHe said, Hey, my second season is going to be tough.\n\n736\n00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:41.400\nAnd you were right.\n\n737\n00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:42.880\nYou know, the talent wasn't there.\n\n738\n00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:44.280\nYou knew it wasn't going to be there.\n\n739\n00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.130\nThe team goes eight and 20 the worst season in North Carolina history when you\n\n740\n00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:49.760\n're having\n\n741\n00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.480\na year like that, how do you keep a team motivated?\n\n742\n00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:56.440\nFirst of all, like in business, you know what's in the funnel, right?\n\n743\n00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:58.160\nBack log, you call it backlog, right?\n\n744\n00:34:58.160 --> 00:34:59.440\nYou have backlog.\n\n745\n00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.280\nAnd so you know what's in the funnel.\n\n746\n00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.680\nYou kind of see what the succession plan looks like.\n\n747\n00:35:05.680 --> 00:35:11.060\nAnd so without, you know, say anything negative, I told you a D that exactly\n\n748\n00:35:11.060 --> 00:35:12.040\nwhat you said.\n\n749\n00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:18.640\nSo the second year, it's a real challenge, a fun challenge.\n\n750\n00:35:18.640 --> 00:35:19.840\nYou know, you got to embrace it.\n\n751\n00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:21.440\nLike this is a challenge.\n\n752\n00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:25.720\nThis, this, someone once said, you know, like you could look at it one or two\n\n753\n00:35:25.720 --> 00:35:26.240\nways.\n\n754\n00:35:26.240 --> 00:35:30.320\nOh, the sky is falling or this is only going to make the story better.\n\n755\n00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:35.080\nLike coach K almost got fired his third year at Duke coach Smith.\n\n756\n00:35:35.080 --> 00:35:36.720\nThey hung him in effigy.\n\n757\n00:35:36.720 --> 00:35:38.880\nSo this is only going to make the story better.\n\n758\n00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:40.680\nI'm tough enough to get through this.\n\n759\n00:35:40.680 --> 00:35:42.000\nAre you tough enough?\n\n760\n00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.360\nLet's get through this.\n\n761\n00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:45.320\nLet's focus on getting better today.\n\n762\n00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:47.840\nI go back to my goals.\n\n763\n00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:48.840\nFive goals.\n\n764\n00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:50.560\nFirst goal, get better today.\n\n765\n00:35:50.560 --> 00:35:51.560\nAll right.\n\n766\n00:35:51.560 --> 00:35:55.790\nWhen you next game, when the ACC championship, when the next so four girls,\n\n767\n00:35:55.790 --> 00:35:56.800\nwhen the national\n\n768\n00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:02.680\nchampionship, we get better today and you don't measure it wins and losses.\n\n769\n00:36:02.680 --> 00:36:06.080\nAnd I think that Nick Saban, I look at Nick Saban, I admire him a great deal.\n\n770\n00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:09.360\nIt is about the process, you know, it is about that.\n\n771\n00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:11.320\nAre you getting better today?\n\n772\n00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:14.560\nAnd that's something that we try to do.\n\n773\n00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:18.000\nAnd I didn't judge them on the score.\n\n774\n00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:20.600\nI judge them on performance.\n\n775\n00:36:20.600 --> 00:36:26.960\nYou rebound in your third year and you win 19 games, but then you get fired.\n\n776\n00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:31.060\nAnd I got to tell you, here's my perspective, just as a leader watching what's\n\n777\n00:36:31.060 --> 00:36:31.720\nhappening\n\n778\n00:36:31.720 --> 00:36:32.720\nto you.\n\n779\n00:36:32.720 --> 00:36:34.280\nAnd here's what I think happened.\n\n780\n00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:35.280\nOkay.\n\n781\n00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:40.880\nRoy Williams, another North Carolina alum, a great coach at Kansas.\n\n782\n00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:42.080\nHe's on the market.\n\n783\n00:36:42.080 --> 00:36:45.400\nHe's open to the move to go back to North Carolina.\n\n784\n00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:47.640\nSo he's, he's in the hopper.\n\n785\n00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:51.600\nYou have an okay season, but you didn't make it into March Madness.\n\n786\n00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:53.320\nJust get to play in the United States.\n\n787\n00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:56.760\nThe athletic director, he wants to hire Roy.\n\n788\n00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:57.760\nOkay.\n\n789\n00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:02.460\nAlways wanted to hire Roy and goes on a witch hunt and he doesn't have your\n\n790\n00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:03.120\nback.\n\n791\n00:37:03.120 --> 00:37:07.680\nHe listens to the players gripe about you, how tough you are, are on him.\n\n792\n00:37:07.680 --> 00:37:11.680\nAnd he gets enough bad info from everybody to give them what he needs to pull\n\n793\n00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:12.360\nthe trigger\n\n794\n00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:13.960\non you.\n\n795\n00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:18.520\nThen he commits what I think is the sin of any leader.\n\n796\n00:37:18.520 --> 00:37:22.840\nHe fires you without giving you any coaching.\n\n797\n00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.280\nYou know, he didn't give you any coaching.\n\n798\n00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.280\nTell you what you could do better.\n\n799\n00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:28.560\nGive you a second chance.\n\n800\n00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:33.130\nMatt, don't you think they owed that to you to lock arms with you and to work\n\n801\n00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:33.480\nwith\n\n802\n00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:36.880\nyou on whatever issues you were having at the time?\n\n803\n00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:38.080\nDid I get a ride or not?\n\n804\n00:37:38.080 --> 00:37:39.560\nThat's how I look at it.\n\n805\n00:37:39.560 --> 00:37:41.320\nAren't close, David.\n\n806\n00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:44.160\nI mean, the witch hunt was real.\n\n807\n00:37:44.160 --> 00:37:47.830\nI remember after the last game, I said, you know, there's always some fallout\n\n808\n00:37:47.830 --> 00:37:48.280\nafter a\n\n809\n00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:50.920\nseason at a place like that.\n\n810\n00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:53.080\nAnd so I talked to the athletic director.\n\n811\n00:37:53.080 --> 00:37:56.640\nI said, listen, I'd like you to talk to the players just to assure them that\n\n812\n00:37:56.640 --> 00:37:57.440\neverything's\n\n813\n00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.520\ngood and they hear it from you and a different voice.\n\n814\n00:38:00.520 --> 00:38:03.760\nThe next day I call him and he said, I said, how to go?\n\n815\n00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:05.040\nHe said, it didn't go so well.\n\n816\n00:38:05.040 --> 00:38:06.920\nI'm like, what do you mean?\n\n817\n00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:10.590\nAnd he said, well, you know, some of the players brought in the dean of\n\n818\n00:38:10.590 --> 00:38:11.360\nstudents.\n\n819\n00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:14.080\nI'm like, why did you bring in the dean of students?\n\n820\n00:38:14.080 --> 00:38:16.160\nSo I was naive.\n\n821\n00:38:16.160 --> 00:38:17.960\nI trusted them.\n\n822\n00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:19.600\nAnd you're right.\n\n823\n00:38:19.600 --> 00:38:26.430\nI think that, you know, there were conversations and I think Coach Smith wanted\n\n824\n00:38:26.430 --> 00:38:27.840\nCoach Williams\n\n825\n00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:29.040\nfrom the beginning.\n\n826\n00:38:29.040 --> 00:38:34.820\nAnd so now there was, you know, an opportunity and I think the team got to the\n\n827\n00:38:34.820 --> 00:38:35.840\npoint where\n\n828\n00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:41.120\nthe talent was in place that it made it even a more attractive job.\n\n829\n00:38:41.120 --> 00:38:44.280\nAnd so the change was made.\n\n830\n00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:50.850\nThe thing that disappoint, one of the many things that's disappointing is that\n\n831\n00:38:50.850 --> 00:38:51.360\nshoot me\n\n832\n00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.000\nstraight.\n\n833\n00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.720\nTell me to my face, you say good things.\n\n834\n00:38:55.720 --> 00:38:57.800\nI'll say good things.\n\n835\n00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:01.200\nIf you don't say good things, it could get ugly.\n\n836\n00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:02.640\nWe'll pay you.\n\n837\n00:39:02.640 --> 00:39:09.740\nI mean, coaches now getting paid $75 million not to coach, you know, Jim Beauf\n\n838\n00:39:09.740 --> 00:39:10.560\nisher.\n\n839\n00:39:10.560 --> 00:39:12.240\nI had a weak contract.\n\n840\n00:39:12.240 --> 00:39:14.000\nI trusted my university.\n\n841\n00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:16.200\nI should have used the lawyer from the beginning.\n\n842\n00:39:16.200 --> 00:39:18.200\nIt's a state institution.\n\n843\n00:39:18.200 --> 00:39:24.080\nI got paid, I think $450,000 over like three years.\n\n844\n00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:28.500\nAnd when I see coaches get fired now and they're getting paid $10 to $75\n\n845\n00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:29.920\nmillion, I'm like,\n\n846\n00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:35.000\noh my God, you know, so I just wish somebody would have come to me and said,\n\n847\n00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:35.760\nlisten, this\n\n848\n00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.200\nis not good.\n\n849\n00:39:37.200 --> 00:39:38.200\nI'm sorry.\n\n850\n00:39:38.200 --> 00:39:39.240\nYou know, we'll say good things.\n\n851\n00:39:39.240 --> 00:39:40.240\nYou say good things.\n\n852\n00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:42.000\nWe'll help you get your next job.\n\n853\n00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.240\nYou know, we'll put you to work here in the university.\n\n854\n00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:46.800\nIt was none of that.\n\n855\n00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.080\nThe chancellor ripped me in the press conference.\n\n856\n00:39:50.080 --> 00:39:53.840\nI remember watching it with my wife on TV.\n\n857\n00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:54.920\nI couldn't believe it.\n\n858\n00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:58.760\nYou know, we talked about Carolina family and I felt like I was betrayed and\n\n859\n00:39:58.760 --> 00:39:59.160\ngetting\n\n860\n00:39:59.160 --> 00:40:02.000\nstabbed in the gut.\n\n861\n00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.600\nHey, everyone.\n\n862\n00:40:04.600 --> 00:40:08.680\nIt's Kula, co-host of three more questions and I have some exciting news to\n\n863\n00:40:08.680 --> 00:40:09.360\nshare with\n\n864\n00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:10.360\nyou.\n\n865\n00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.560\nWe just launched a breakthrough app that will help you become a better leader\n\n866\n00:40:13.560 --> 00:40:14.120\nin less than\n\n867\n00:40:14.120 --> 00:40:15.720\ntwo minutes a day.\n\n868\n00:40:15.720 --> 00:40:17.520\nIt's called how leaders lead.\n\n869\n00:40:17.520 --> 00:40:21.210\nAs you know on the podcast, David spends about an hour each week interviewing\n\n870\n00:40:21.210 --> 00:40:21.720\nsome of the\n\n871\n00:40:21.720 --> 00:40:23.680\ntop leaders in the world.\n\n872\n00:40:23.680 --> 00:40:27.680\nPeople like Tom Brady, Condolee is a rice and Jamie Diamond.\n\n873\n00:40:27.680 --> 00:40:31.360\nBut we know that leaders like yourself are pressed for time.\n\n874\n00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.690\nSo we've taken the very best clips from these conversations and put them into\n\n875\n00:40:35.690 --> 00:40:36.360\nan easy to\n\n876\n00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:40.880\nuse mobile app that you can learn from in less than two minutes a day.\n\n877\n00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:44.320\nIf you want to become a better leader, start a daily leadership habit with the\n\n878\n00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:44.920\nhow leaders\n\n879\n00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:46.200\nlead app.\n\n880\n00:40:46.200 --> 00:40:49.280\nIt's available now for free and the app store.\n\n881\n00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:51.280\nDownload it today.\n\n882\n00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:58.560\nNow, Matt, I've got one more.\n\n883\n00:40:58.560 --> 00:41:03.410\nTwo years later, North Carolina wins the national title with a team that was\n\n884\n00:41:03.410 --> 00:41:04.600\nlargely recruited\n\n885\n00:41:04.600 --> 00:41:07.080\nby you and no one ever talks about it.\n\n886\n00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:09.600\nIt's like you were written out of the history books.\n\n887\n00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:10.720\nThat's got to break your heart.\n\n888\n00:41:10.720 --> 00:41:13.080\nI mean, how do you get over something like that?\n\n889\n00:41:13.080 --> 00:41:16.590\nAnd we're going to turn the corner now because you have definitely turned the\n\n890\n00:41:16.590 --> 00:41:17.200\ncorner.\n\n891\n00:41:17.200 --> 00:41:19.560\nBut I mean, I'm just setting the stage.\n\n892\n00:41:19.560 --> 00:41:24.620\nI remember when that game that starting five was the starting five I had my\n\n893\n00:41:24.620 --> 00:41:25.440\nlast year.\n\n894\n00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:29.800\nAnd two years later, they went to national championship.\n\n895\n00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:33.610\nAnd I remember sitting in the green room, I was doing some TV and I was just\n\n896\n00:41:33.610 --> 00:41:34.240\nlike, oh,\n\n897\n00:41:34.240 --> 00:41:37.080\nmy gosh, that's my team.\n\n898\n00:41:37.080 --> 00:41:40.080\nAnd that should be me climbing the ladder.\n\n899\n00:41:40.080 --> 00:41:43.560\nAnd it's still hard.\n\n900\n00:41:43.560 --> 00:41:46.280\nI never got any recognition.\n\n901\n00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:51.600\nThe fans recognized me, but I never just a letter or phone call.\n\n902\n00:41:51.600 --> 00:41:52.600\nThank you.\n\n903\n00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:54.120\nAnd that is disappointing.\n\n904\n00:41:54.120 --> 00:42:00.510\nBut when I went back to coaching in 2005, right after that championship, I\n\n905\n00:42:00.510 --> 00:42:01.600\nstarted coaching\n\n906\n00:42:01.600 --> 00:42:05.360\nagain and I took the job at FAU ironically.\n\n907\n00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:07.600\nNow they went to the final four.\n\n908\n00:42:07.600 --> 00:42:09.040\nI dealt with depression.\n\n909\n00:42:09.040 --> 00:42:14.890\nI went to dark places and ended up seeing some doctors and taking some\n\n910\n00:42:14.890 --> 00:42:16.280\nmedication.\n\n911\n00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:20.440\nAnd because my identity was wrapped up in basketball.\n\n912\n00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:25.040\nAnd then I also remember talking to an executive coach, Fran Johnston.\n\n913\n00:42:25.040 --> 00:42:27.600\nAnd I tried to justify it.\n\n914\n00:42:27.600 --> 00:42:30.600\nYou know, I said, oh, this happens in business all the time.\n\n915\n00:42:30.600 --> 00:42:34.040\nYou know, people get fired and, you know, she said, no, you don't get it.\n\n916\n00:42:34.040 --> 00:42:40.960\nShe said, you trusted some people at the age of 17 years old and you felt like\n\n917\n00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:41.120\nyou were\n\n918\n00:42:41.120 --> 00:42:42.880\nlet down.\n\n919\n00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:44.720\nAnd like that put things in perspective.\n\n920\n00:42:44.720 --> 00:42:49.280\nSo, you know, I'm over it now, but I'll never be fully over it.\n\n921\n00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:55.120\nAnd I think you get over it through moving forward, finding fulfilling work and\n\n922\n00:42:55.120 --> 00:42:55.680\nalso,\n\n923\n00:42:55.680 --> 00:43:01.750\nyou know, through God, through Jesus, you know, like if Jesus could get, you\n\n924\n00:43:01.750 --> 00:43:02.840\nknow, crucified\n\n925\n00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:06.320\nand forgive the people who crucified him.\n\n926\n00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.470\nI could forgive and I've talked about this in book, the people that I felt\n\n927\n00:43:09.470 --> 00:43:10.040\nmight have\n\n928\n00:43:10.040 --> 00:43:15.680\nwrong me, but also think forgiveness has to also start with yourself.\n\n929\n00:43:15.680 --> 00:43:17.520\nAnd you know, we're not perfect.\n\n930\n00:43:17.520 --> 00:43:22.130\nWe make mistakes and I made some mistakes and I have to own that and realize\n\n931\n00:43:22.130 --> 00:43:22.880\nthat, you know,\n\n932\n00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.960\nI don't understand the path, but okay, God, you put me on this path and let me\n\n933\n00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:28.560\ndo, you\n\n934\n00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:32.400\nknow, work for you in the leadership space.\n\n935\n00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:37.740\nYou know, CEOs often have difficulty when their predecessors stay actively\n\n936\n00:43:37.740 --> 00:43:38.800\ninvolved on their\n\n937\n00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:39.800\nboard.\n\n938\n00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:41.920\nMany think they should exit completely.\n\n939\n00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:45.230\nI became executive chairman at Young Brands and I know half the board members\n\n940\n00:43:45.230 --> 00:43:45.760\nthought I\n\n941\n00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:46.920\nshould be out of it.\n\n942\n00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:47.920\nOkay.\n\n943\n00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:48.920\nThey just thought you'd need to get out of there.\n\n944\n00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:51.080\nI was casting stupid a shadow.\n\n945\n00:43:51.080 --> 00:43:55.840\nThere's no way the new guy coming in was going to have a chance to be the CEO.\n\n946\n00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:58.760\nBut when you're in North Carolina, you got Dean Smith there.\n\n947\n00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.080\nHe's always lurking in the background.\n\n948\n00:44:01.080 --> 00:44:05.640\nWould you learn from the way out he handled his so-called retirement and what\n\n949\n00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:06.360\nadvice would\n\n950\n00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:08.520\nyou give other leaders?\n\n951\n00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:13.200\nMaybe it's not much different in business or, you know, on a college campus.\n\n952\n00:44:13.200 --> 00:44:17.040\nThey are such a big part of the institution.\n\n953\n00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:18.340\nThey are worshiped.\n\n954\n00:44:18.340 --> 00:44:19.340\nThey're honored.\n\n955\n00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:22.600\nAnd so the school wants to take advantage of that through fundraising.\n\n956\n00:44:22.600 --> 00:44:25.480\nYou know, I think Roy Williams works for the university now.\n\n957\n00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:28.880\nJay, Jay Wright, Villanova works for the president.\n\n958\n00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:33.720\nSo they really don't want those people to go away.\n\n959\n00:44:33.720 --> 00:44:43.160\nSo I think the best thing to do in that situation would be to totally embrace\n\n960\n00:44:43.160 --> 00:44:44.680\nthat former coach\n\n961\n00:44:44.680 --> 00:44:50.080\nand have them involved in every way, shape, or form that they want to be\n\n962\n00:44:50.080 --> 00:44:51.280\ninvolved in.\n\n963\n00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:55.740\nSo looking back when Coach Smith said, you know, and I'm independent, you also\n\n964\n00:44:55.740 --> 00:44:56.200\nhave to\n\n965\n00:44:56.200 --> 00:44:58.520\nknow yourself, like going to six-nails of leadership.\n\n966\n00:44:58.520 --> 00:44:59.840\nI have to know myself better.\n\n967\n00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:01.640\nI don't like to be told what to do.\n\n968\n00:45:01.640 --> 00:45:03.560\nI'm independent thinker.\n\n969\n00:45:03.560 --> 00:45:06.080\nSo maybe I shouldn't have taken the job.\n\n970\n00:45:06.080 --> 00:45:08.960\nBut Coach Smith said, it's your program, running how you see fit.\n\n971\n00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.320\nSo I took that literally.\n\n972\n00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:16.770\nAnd looking back, I should have embraced him and really let him run the program\n\n973\n00:45:16.770 --> 00:45:17.400\nthrough\n\n974\n00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:24.800\nme, at least early on, or this sounds maybe weird.\n\n975\n00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:27.840\nGive him the impression that I was running the program through him.\n\n976\n00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:31.810\nOkay, a friend of mine who was writing a book said, good leadership is\n\n977\n00:45:31.810 --> 00:45:32.760\nmanipulation\n\n978\n00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:34.440\nwith good intent.\n\n979\n00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:38.920\nYou know, now manipulation sounds like a bad word, maybe influence.\n\n980\n00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:41.960\nSo you know, include him.\n\n981\n00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:44.800\nAnd I didn't, I didn't include him.\n\n982\n00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:46.640\nI remember one of his friends called me.\n\n983\n00:45:46.640 --> 00:45:50.250\nHe said, at the end of the season, he said, you know, you need to call Coach\n\n984\n00:45:50.250 --> 00:45:50.800\nMoore.\n\n985\n00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:52.000\nYou need to include him more.\n\n986\n00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:53.000\nI'm like, call him more.\n\n987\n00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:54.000\nHe's retired.\n\n988\n00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:56.120\nLike, I don't want to bother him.\n\n989\n00:45:56.120 --> 00:45:59.400\nAnd my relationship with him as player coach, he was always somewhat of an\n\n990\n00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.360\nintimidating factor.\n\n991\n00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:07.180\nSo if I had to do it again, I would have probably run every major decision\n\n992\n00:46:07.180 --> 00:46:08.720\nthrough him.\n\n993\n00:46:08.720 --> 00:46:11.770\nBut I also was afraid that what if he gave me an answer that I didn't like and\n\n994\n00:46:11.770 --> 00:46:12.040\nI went\n\n995\n00:46:12.040 --> 00:46:13.800\nagainst it, you know?\n\n996\n00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:17.760\nHey, Matt, you know, I don't know you that well, but I know you well enough.\n\n997\n00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:19.720\nThat's, that'd be disingenuous to you.\n\n998\n00:46:19.720 --> 00:46:21.800\nI mean, that's not what you wanted to do.\n\n999\n00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.560\nYeah, you could have sold your soul down the river.\n\n1000\n00:46:24.560 --> 00:46:25.560\nOkay.\n\n1001\n00:46:25.560 --> 00:46:26.560\nSo you got screwed.\n\n1002\n00:46:26.560 --> 00:46:27.560\nOkay.\n\n1003\n00:46:27.560 --> 00:46:30.800\nI mean, you know, there's no doubt about it.\n\n1004\n00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:36.440\nBut the good news is your passion has evolved now from coaching to leadership.\n\n1005\n00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:37.680\nLet's turn the corner.\n\n1006\n00:46:37.680 --> 00:46:38.680\nHow did that happen?\n\n1007\n00:46:38.680 --> 00:46:41.000\nHow did you get so passionate about leadership now?\n\n1008\n00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:45.030\nWhen I got fired at North Carolina, I went on a leadership journey and a friend\n\n1009\n00:46:45.030 --> 00:46:45.600\nof mine,\n\n1010\n00:46:45.600 --> 00:46:50.200\nJohn Black, personal board of directors, gave me a recommendation.\n\n1011\n00:46:50.200 --> 00:46:54.970\nHe said, take a year off and do something positive with your time because when\n\n1012\n00:46:54.970 --> 00:46:55.200\nyou get\n\n1013\n00:46:55.200 --> 00:46:58.480\nback to coaching people, going to ask, what did you do?\n\n1014\n00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:00.720\nYou have this gap in your resume.\n\n1015\n00:47:00.720 --> 00:47:05.440\nSo he said, I worked with an executive coach at UVA named Carol Weber.\n\n1016\n00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:07.000\nI'll introduce you.\n\n1017\n00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:11.800\nSo I met with Carol Weber and did a half day session with her.\n\n1018\n00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:13.840\nDid the Myers Briggs assessment.\n\n1019\n00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:20.280\nWe talked, I took her class, let her husband, Jack, and she ran on leadership.\n\n1020\n00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:24.080\nWe talked a lot about case studies.\n\n1021\n00:47:24.080 --> 00:47:28.520\nAnd I remember like, wow, oh my gosh, there's so much I don't know.\n\n1022\n00:47:28.520 --> 00:47:30.760\nI did the Myers Briggs assessment.\n\n1023\n00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:32.240\nI walked in there depressed now.\n\n1024\n00:47:32.240 --> 00:47:35.120\nMy shoulders were down, my head was down.\n\n1025\n00:47:35.120 --> 00:47:39.770\nAnd she said to me, okay, you know, after some small talk, you know, Myers\n\n1026\n00:47:39.770 --> 00:47:41.120\nBriggs assessment,\n\n1027\n00:47:41.120 --> 00:47:43.640\nyou're an ENTJ.\n\n1028\n00:47:43.640 --> 00:47:49.300\nAnd I remember thinking ENTJ, I haven't called four a lot of words before, but\n\n1029\n00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:51.520\nnever an ENTJ.\n\n1030\n00:47:51.520 --> 00:47:55.720\nAnd she said only 2% of the population are ENTJs.\n\n1031\n00:47:55.720 --> 00:48:00.080\nAnd I'm thinking, oh man, I'm elite, like only 2% of the population.\n\n1032\n00:48:00.080 --> 00:48:01.400\nI'm elite.\n\n1033\n00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.720\nAnd I think she read my body language and said, no, you don't get it.\n\n1034\n00:48:04.720 --> 00:48:08.760\nThat means 98% of the population don't think like you think.\n\n1035\n00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:15.770\nAnd that was an aha moment for me to realize started to understand self\n\n1036\n00:48:15.770 --> 00:48:17.760\nawareness and emotional\n\n1037\n00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:18.760\nintelligence.\n\n1038\n00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:24.790\nAnd then I went to took a class at Wharton week long class and met Fran Johnson\n\n1039\n00:48:24.790 --> 00:48:24.920\n.\n\n1040\n00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:26.360\nAnd she was an executive coach.\n\n1041\n00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:31.600\nShe taught a class on emotional intelligence from the book, Primal Leadership.\n\n1042\n00:48:31.600 --> 00:48:35.960\nI think it's the art of emotional intelligence by Daniel Gohlman.\n\n1043\n00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:42.360\nAnd those ladies, those classes changed my life and got me excited because at\n\n1044\n00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:42.960\nthat point,\n\n1045\n00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.040\nDavid, I was told I wasn't a good leader.\n\n1046\n00:48:45.040 --> 00:48:47.640\nSo I thought you either born a leader or you're not.\n\n1047\n00:48:47.640 --> 00:48:52.080\nAnd now I read and was told that, hey, leadership is a learned behavior.\n\n1048\n00:48:52.080 --> 00:48:54.040\nI got excited about that.\n\n1049\n00:48:54.040 --> 00:48:57.200\nAnd I just try to soak up everything I could about leadership.\n\n1050\n00:48:57.200 --> 00:49:01.480\nTell me about your daughter coaching practice and all you and your team do.\n\n1051\n00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:04.160\nOur focus is mainly executive coaching.\n\n1052\n00:49:04.160 --> 00:49:05.960\nI'm a VISTAGE chair.\n\n1053\n00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:09.960\nVISTAGE is one of the oldest executive coaching organizations in the country.\n\n1054\n00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:14.320\nSo I meet with business owners, CEOs in the Charlotte metro area.\n\n1055\n00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:18.640\nI also have some independent clients in different parts of the country that I\n\n1056\n00:49:18.640 --> 00:49:19.600\nwork with.\n\n1057\n00:49:19.600 --> 00:49:20.880\nAnd I do keynote talks.\n\n1058\n00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:22.600\nI enjoy doing keynote talks.\n\n1059\n00:49:22.600 --> 00:49:25.040\nIt's like me getting on stage.\n\n1060\n00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:28.640\nIt's like a pregame talk I'm giving to the group.\n\n1061\n00:49:28.640 --> 00:49:30.760\nSo I focus there.\n\n1062\n00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:34.400\nIn addition, I do have the rebound podcast.\n\n1063\n00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:37.240\nI wrote the book, Rebound from Pain to Passion.\n\n1064\n00:49:37.240 --> 00:49:41.280\nI enjoy everything in the leadership space.\n\n1065\n00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.880\nHow do you teach someone to be coachable, coach?\n\n1066\n00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:44.880\nWhoo.\n\n1067\n00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.280\nYour life's impacted by three things.\n\n1068\n00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:52.880\nThe people you meet, the books you read and the trauma in your life.\n\n1069\n00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:59.240\nAnd if someone's not coachable and they don't get it through books or people,\n\n1070\n00:49:59.240 --> 00:49:59.480\nthey need\n\n1071\n00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:00.480\nsome trauma.\n\n1072\n00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.320\nAnd you just hope it's not terminal.\n\n1073\n00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:07.320\nI think a little trauma is good for a lot of people.\n\n1074\n00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:13.300\nAnd it's humbling and your little humility combined with confidence, you get\n\n1075\n00:50:13.300 --> 00:50:14.120\nclass.\n\n1076\n00:50:14.120 --> 00:50:16.680\nYou know, this has been so much fun.\n\n1077\n00:50:16.680 --> 00:50:19.760\nAnd I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions.\n\n1078\n00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:20.960\nAre you ready for this?\n\n1079\n00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:21.960\nOkay?\n\n1080\n00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:22.960\nSure.\n\n1081\n00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:23.960\nI think so.\n\n1082\n00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:26.200\nWhat's one word others would use to best describe you?\n\n1083\n00:50:26.200 --> 00:50:27.520\nIntense.\n\n1084\n00:50:27.520 --> 00:50:30.920\nWhat would you say is the one word that best describes you?\n\n1085\n00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:31.920\nIntense.\n\n1086\n00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:34.000\nWho would play you in a movie?\n\n1087\n00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:35.360\nWell, I tell you what.\n\n1088\n00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:40.440\nI've gotten to know Jim Caviesel, who was in the passion.\n\n1089\n00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:42.760\nJim's a big basketball guy.\n\n1090\n00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:44.640\nAnd I'll say Jim Caviesel.\n\n1091\n00:50:44.640 --> 00:50:49.080\nIf you could be one person beside yourself for a day, who would it be?\n\n1092\n00:50:49.080 --> 00:50:53.200\nIt's Larry Bird or Mick Jagger.\n\n1093\n00:50:53.200 --> 00:50:56.320\nAs a coach, what's your biggest pet peeve?\n\n1094\n00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:57.720\nUntied shoelaces.\n\n1095\n00:50:57.720 --> 00:50:58.720\nDouble knot.\n\n1096\n00:50:58.720 --> 00:51:00.640\nYou got to double knot your shoelaces.\n\n1097\n00:51:00.640 --> 00:51:05.600\nThat's a word or phrase you'd use to describe beating Duke at Duke.\n\n1098\n00:51:05.600 --> 00:51:06.600\nSweet.\n\n1099\n00:51:06.600 --> 00:51:08.960\nPlaying with Michael Jordan.\n\n1100\n00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:10.280\nEasy.\n\n1101\n00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:12.040\nThe Tar Heels fan base.\n\n1102\n00:51:12.040 --> 00:51:16.800\nOh, man, I want to say a lot of things, a lot of good things.\n\n1103\n00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:18.520\nThey are pure.\n\n1104\n00:51:18.520 --> 00:51:20.280\nThey're pure fans.\n\n1105\n00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:21.280\nTurmites.\n\n1106\n00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:22.280\nTurmites.\n\n1107\n00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:26.160\nOne word would be, \"turmites would be, you know, jealousy.\"\n\n1108\n00:51:26.160 --> 00:51:30.110\nWhat's something you miss about basketball back when there was no three-point\n\n1109\n00:51:30.110 --> 00:51:30.600\nline?\n\n1110\n00:51:30.600 --> 00:51:35.320\nThe fast break, you know, just the traditional three-on-two fast break.\n\n1111\n00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:37.240\nWhat's your biggest faux pas?\n\n1112\n00:51:37.240 --> 00:51:39.880\nI had many.\n\n1113\n00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:46.680\nI had many, many, many, many faux pas.\n\n1114\n00:51:46.680 --> 00:51:47.680\nGosh.\n\n1115\n00:51:47.680 --> 00:51:50.040\nYeah, that's too many.\n\n1116\n00:51:50.040 --> 00:51:53.240\nI'd say probably not managing change well at North Carolina.\n\n1117\n00:51:53.240 --> 00:51:54.240\nOkay.\n\n1118\n00:51:54.240 --> 00:51:56.680\nYou win the lottery today.\n\n1119\n00:51:56.680 --> 00:51:57.680\nOkay.\n\n1120\n00:51:57.680 --> 00:51:58.680\nWhat would you do?\n\n1121\n00:51:58.680 --> 00:52:01.720\nThe lottery today, a pride coach, high school basketball.\n\n1122\n00:52:01.720 --> 00:52:05.280\nIf I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear?\n\n1123\n00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.280\nFierce Conversations.\n\n1124\n00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:11.910\nIt's a book written by a former Vistage Chair about having crucial\n\n1125\n00:52:11.910 --> 00:52:13.640\nconversations.\n\n1126\n00:52:13.640 --> 00:52:15.680\nWhat's something about you few people would know?\n\n1127\n00:52:15.680 --> 00:52:17.560\nAll right, we're going deep and I like it.\n\n1128\n00:52:17.560 --> 00:52:18.840\nI'm an alcoholic.\n\n1129\n00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:25.120\nI gave up drinking 34 years ago and was one of the things I'm most proud of in\n\n1130\n00:52:25.120 --> 00:52:26.120\nmy life.\n\n1131\n00:52:26.120 --> 00:52:27.120\nFantastic.\n\n1132\n00:52:27.120 --> 00:52:30.000\nThat's the end of the lightning round and good job, man.\n\n1133\n00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:31.240\nI knew you'd be good at it.\n\n1134\n00:52:31.240 --> 00:52:32.240\nYou were.\n\n1135\n00:52:32.240 --> 00:52:33.560\nOkay, just a handful of questions.\n\n1136\n00:52:33.560 --> 00:52:34.720\nI'm going to let you go.\n\n1137\n00:52:34.720 --> 00:52:35.720\nSure.\n\n1138\n00:52:35.720 --> 00:52:40.680\nYou talk a lot about the importance of executive assistance in your book.\n\n1139\n00:52:40.680 --> 00:52:41.680\nTalk about that.\n\n1140\n00:52:41.680 --> 00:52:48.640\nWell, I think as a leader, you need to learn to leverage talent.\n\n1141\n00:52:48.640 --> 00:52:49.800\nYou need to learn to delegate.\n\n1142\n00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:55.890\nI think that's one thing that one of many things that as people go up the org\n\n1143\n00:52:55.890 --> 00:52:56.160\nchart,\n\n1144\n00:52:56.160 --> 00:52:58.320\nthey struggle with is delegation.\n\n1145\n00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:02.160\nI was talking to a client today about it.\n\n1146\n00:53:02.160 --> 00:53:10.200\nTo have a good executive assistant that can return calls, set up appointments,\n\n1147\n00:53:10.200 --> 00:53:10.640\ndo things\n\n1148\n00:53:10.640 --> 00:53:13.880\nthat you don't need to do or shouldn't do.\n\n1149\n00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:20.320\nFreeze you up to do the things that I think a CEO should be doing.\n\n1150\n00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:24.490\nThat's casting a vision, driving culture, engaging in large business\n\n1151\n00:53:24.490 --> 00:53:25.560\ntransactions.\n\n1152\n00:53:25.560 --> 00:53:31.240\nYou need a good EA, executive assistant, to manage your day to day and be your\n\n1153\n00:53:31.240 --> 00:53:32.560\ngatekeeper.\n\n1154\n00:53:32.560 --> 00:53:38.320\nYou've talked about two very impactful executive coaches in your career.\n\n1155\n00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:44.460\nWhen do you think a leader should go outside and get an executive coach and get\n\n1156\n00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:45.440\nthat outside\n\n1157\n00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:46.560\nperspective?\n\n1158\n00:53:46.560 --> 00:53:53.220\nI think that they should go outside and get an executive coach before they take\n\n1159\n00:53:53.220 --> 00:53:53.800\non the\n\n1160\n00:53:53.800 --> 00:53:57.000\nrole of a CEO.\n\n1161\n00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:59.360\nIt's preparing.\n\n1162\n00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:04.760\nWayne Gretzky says, \"It's not like anticipate where the puck is going.\"\n\n1163\n00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:09.000\nHow can you prepare for that role of a CEO?\n\n1164\n00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:15.760\nOnce you get the job, that first 90 days, as you know, is crazy.\n\n1165\n00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:20.160\nHow can you be prepared for that first 90 days?\n\n1166\n00:54:20.160 --> 00:54:23.880\nI think that it's like training for the season.\n\n1167\n00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:28.180\nIt's like preparing for college when you're in high school and the NBA when it\n\n1168\n00:54:28.180 --> 00:54:28.960\n's training\n\n1169\n00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:29.960\ncamp.\n\n1170\n00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:32.120\nI think the sooner the better.\n\n1171\n00:54:32.120 --> 00:54:38.630\nI think admitting to not knowing everything and being curious and having\n\n1172\n00:54:38.630 --> 00:54:40.000\nsomebody that\n\n1173\n00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:45.210\nyou can be vulnerable with and know it's not going to be weaponized against you\n\n1174\n00:54:45.210 --> 00:54:45.880\nis really\n\n1175\n00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:47.560\nhealthy.\n\n1176\n00:54:47.560 --> 00:54:52.280\nYou keep a family picture on your desk to help you make decisions.\n\n1177\n00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:53.280\nExplain.\n\n1178\n00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:59.680\nJohn Black, when I was back coaching, he told me that he put a picture of his\n\n1179\n00:54:59.680 --> 00:55:00.560\nfamily on\n\n1180\n00:55:00.560 --> 00:55:04.920\nhis desk and every decision he made was in their best interest.\n\n1181\n00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:11.290\nMade it a lot easier for me to remember how to fire somebody when I was at SMU\n\n1182\n00:55:11.290 --> 00:55:14.240\nin Dallas.\n\n1183\n00:55:14.240 --> 00:55:17.210\nWhen you fire somebody, there's going to be resistance for the most part and he\n\n1184\n00:55:17.210 --> 00:55:17.560\nusually\n\n1185\n00:55:17.560 --> 00:55:21.120\ntakes three times to tell the person this isn't going to work out.\n\n1186\n00:55:21.120 --> 00:55:24.040\nAnd I remember each time I looked at the picture of my family.\n\n1187\n00:55:24.040 --> 00:55:29.520\nSo it gave me the resolve to stay strong and not cave in that moment.\n\n1188\n00:55:29.520 --> 00:55:33.230\nOne of the things I really admire about you, Matt, in spite of a lot of the\n\n1189\n00:55:33.230 --> 00:55:34.080\ndifficulties\n\n1190\n00:55:34.080 --> 00:55:37.600\nthat you had, you've decided to take the high ground.\n\n1191\n00:55:37.600 --> 00:55:41.520\nYou were able to bury the hatchet and move on.\n\n1192\n00:55:41.520 --> 00:55:45.120\nWhat advice can you give to leaders on that aspect of life?\n\n1193\n00:55:45.120 --> 00:55:46.120\nYeah.\n\n1194\n00:55:46.120 --> 00:55:47.120\nWell, that came from Kevin White.\n\n1195\n00:55:47.120 --> 00:55:50.900\nKevin White was the AD that I left at Notre Dame and he was one of the first\n\n1196\n00:55:50.900 --> 00:55:51.520\npeople to\n\n1197\n00:55:51.520 --> 00:55:56.440\ncall me when I lost my job at North Carolina and ironically, he was at Duke at\n\n1198\n00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:56.920\nthe time.\n\n1199\n00:55:56.920 --> 00:56:00.280\nAnd he said to me, no, maybe he's still at Notre Dame.\n\n1200\n00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:04.800\nAnd he said, take the high road is less traffic up there.\n\n1201\n00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:10.180\nAnd because it's so easy to get bitter and it may feel good in the moment, but\n\n1202\n00:56:10.180 --> 00:56:10.600\nthat's\n\n1203\n00:56:10.600 --> 00:56:13.600\nyour fight or flight, emotion, response.\n\n1204\n00:56:13.600 --> 00:56:18.120\nYou need to really operate from the top of your mind, not the bottom of your\n\n1205\n00:56:18.120 --> 00:56:18.720\nmind.\n\n1206\n00:56:18.720 --> 00:56:20.680\nAnd you won't regret that, right?\n\n1207\n00:56:20.680 --> 00:56:22.280\nYou won't regret that.\n\n1208\n00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:24.920\nWhat do you see, Matt, as your personal mission today?\n\n1209\n00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:28.360\nMy mission statement is to make a positive impact on the people I meet and the\n\n1210\n00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:28.760\ngroups\n\n1211\n00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:31.720\nI work with while dropping breadcrumbs to the Lord.\n\n1212\n00:56:31.720 --> 00:56:32.880\nThat is it.\n\n1213\n00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:34.040\nFantastic.\n\n1214\n00:56:34.040 --> 00:56:38.730\nAnd last question, what's the best piece of advice you can give aspiring\n\n1215\n00:56:38.730 --> 00:56:39.560\nleaders?\n\n1216\n00:56:39.560 --> 00:56:41.560\nBe a lifelong learner.\n\n1217\n00:56:41.560 --> 00:56:42.560\nStay curious.\n\n1218\n00:56:42.560 --> 00:56:46.050\nIt's like the guy from the DeSeckeys commercial, you know, stay thirsty, my\n\n1219\n00:56:46.050 --> 00:56:46.680\nfriend.\n\n1220\n00:56:46.680 --> 00:56:49.840\nI like to say, still curious, my friend.\n\n1221\n00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:51.920\nThat's great.\n\n1222\n00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:56.720\nWell, Matt, I knew this would be a very powerful conversation.\n\n1223\n00:56:56.720 --> 00:56:57.720\nAnd it was.\n\n1224\n00:56:57.720 --> 00:57:01.500\nAnd I want to thank you for being the leader that you are, the leader that you\n\n1225\n00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:02.240\n've become,\n\n1226\n00:57:02.240 --> 00:57:06.080\nbeing so open and vulnerable and taking the time to share your learnings with\n\n1227\n00:57:06.080 --> 00:57:06.720\nus today.\n\n1228\n00:57:06.720 --> 00:57:08.200\nVery, very powerful stuff.\n\n1229\n00:57:08.200 --> 00:57:12.200\nHonored, really, really flattered that you would have me on the show.\n\n1230\n00:57:12.200 --> 00:57:27.560\nAnd I hope that our paths will cross again soon.\n\n1231\n00:57:27.560 --> 00:57:31.440\nYou know, I really admire Matt for how he rebounded after his time at North\n\n1232\n00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:32.200\nCarolina.\n\n1233\n00:57:32.200 --> 00:57:36.580\nIt was painful, but he dove into leadership and found a new level of growth and\n\n1234\n00:57:36.580 --> 00:57:37.040\nstrength\n\n1235\n00:57:37.040 --> 00:57:40.320\nand opportunity for himself.\n\n1236\n00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:45.020\nMaybe it's kind of like that 304 sprints that he made his team at Notre Dame\n\n1237\n00:57:45.020 --> 00:57:46.240\nRun after they\n\n1238\n00:57:46.240 --> 00:57:48.400\nblew it and had a big loss.\n\n1239\n00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:54.400\nYeah, it was painful, but it showed the team what they were capable of.\n\n1240\n00:57:54.400 --> 00:58:00.960\nAnd that number 304 became a source of strength for their entire season.\n\n1241\n00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:05.340\nWhen you persevere through adversity, when you're brave enough to learn from it\n\n1242\n00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:05.640\n, I know\n\n1243\n00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:10.800\nyou're going to uncover new levels of growth and opportunity for yourself too.\n\n1244\n00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:16.320\nI don't do this often because this podcast is not about touting books.\n\n1245\n00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:21.650\nBut I have to tell you, I really encourage you to pick up a copy of Matt's book\n\n1246\n00:58:21.650 --> 00:58:22.280\nbecause\n\n1247\n00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:26.440\nI think it has so many insights we can all learn from.\n\n1248\n00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:28.880\nThe book again is called Rebound.\n\n1249\n00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:32.350\nLike I mentioned earlier, it's one of the most revealing leadership books I've\n\n1250\n00:58:32.350 --> 00:58:32.520\never\n\n1251\n00:58:32.520 --> 00:58:35.560\nread and I've read a lot of leadership books.\n\n1252\n00:58:35.560 --> 00:58:39.670\nThis journey is so practical and inspiring and honest and I know you're going\n\n1253\n00:58:39.670 --> 00:58:40.120\nto find\n\n1254\n00:58:40.120 --> 00:58:41.960\na lot of value in it.\n\n1255\n00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:44.080\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n1256\n00:58:44.080 --> 00:58:48.080\nWhat we learned today is the great leaders look for the opportunities that come\n\n1257\n00:58:48.080 --> 00:58:48.200\nwhen\n\n1258\n00:58:48.200 --> 00:58:50.760\nyou have adversity.\n\n1259\n00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:55.140\nComing up next on how leaders lead is our always popular best-of episode where\n\n1260\n00:58:55.140 --> 00:58:55.640\nwe pull\n\n1261\n00:58:55.640 --> 00:59:00.920\ntogether the top insights from every guest from the last quarter like this one.\n\n1262\n00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:06.440\nNone other than Brian Nickel, the chief executive officer of Chipotle.\n\n1263\n00:59:06.440 --> 00:59:12.580\nYour only as good as the talent that we can be attracting and energizing every\n\n1264\n00:59:12.580 --> 00:59:13.160\nday.\n\n1265\n00:59:13.160 --> 00:59:17.400\nAnd one of the things I say to everybody is look, we are a place for ideas.\n\n1266\n00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:20.570\nAnd if you want to come to a place and you're willing to pressure test your\n\n1267\n00:59:20.570 --> 00:59:21.320\nideas, we're\n\n1268\n00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:24.600\ngoing to give you a shot with those ideas to make it to market.\n\n1269\n00:59:24.600 --> 00:59:27.560\nWe use a disciplined approach with it as a stage gate process.\n\n1270\n00:59:27.560 --> 00:59:31.950\nBut I think what gets these guys excited is their ideas more often than not\n\n1271\n00:59:31.950 --> 00:59:32.680\nmake it.\n\n1272\n00:59:32.680 --> 00:59:36.760\nWhether it's in the digital space with it was a couple of years ago, we were\n\n1273\n00:59:36.760 --> 00:59:37.280\nexperimenting\n\n1274\n00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:42.490\nwith the metaverse to where we are today with how we use our rewards program to\n\n1275\n00:59:42.490 --> 00:59:43.080\nbetter\n\n1276\n00:59:43.080 --> 00:59:48.020\nengage with people or most recently we're doing a food program called Carni As\n\n1277\n00:59:48.020 --> 00:59:48.480\nada.\n\n1278\n00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:52.160\nThese were all ideas that came from folks in our organization, put it through\n\n1279\n00:59:52.160 --> 00:59:52.680\nthe stage\n\n1280\n00:59:52.680 --> 00:59:55.120\ngate process and then saw it to market.\n\n1281\n00:59:55.120 --> 00:59:58.640\nAnd when I talk to like Kurt Garner, the gentleman that runs all of our tech,\n\n1282\n00:59:58.640 --> 00:59:59.160\nwe get a lot of\n\n1283\n00:59:59.160 --> 01:00:03.020\npeople applying for these jobs because they want to bring their ideas to market\n\n1284\n01:00:03.020 --> 01:00:03.280\n.\n\n1285\n01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:06.950\nAnd when they find out that we're a place that embraces the ideas, we'll\n\n1286\n01:00:06.950 --> 01:00:07.680\npressure test\n\n1287\n01:00:07.680 --> 01:00:10.640\nif it works, we're going to put more fuel to the fire.\n\n1288\n01:00:10.640 --> 01:00:12.600\nAnd that's kind of the approach we've been taking.\n\n1289\n01:00:12.600 --> 01:00:16.840\nSo be sure to come back again next week to hear more insights like that.\n\n1290\n01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:20.070\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead where every\n\n1291\n01:00:20.070 --> 01:00:20.840\nThursday you\n\n1292\n01:00:20.840 --> 01:00:25.160\nget to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world.\n\n1293\n01:00:25.160 --> 01:00:29.160\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1294\n01:00:29.160 --> 01:00:29.960\napply to your\n\n1295\n01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:33.560\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1296\n01:00:33.560 --> 01:00:43.560\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n1297\n01:00:43.560 --> 01:00:53.560\n[ Silence ]","

David Novak 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen to and while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, March Madness is kicking off this weekend. And I'm honored to have Matt Doherty joining me as my guest today, Max played in Final Fours himself, and is the former head basketball coach at both Notre Dame and the University of North Carolina, and is now a nationally recognized executive coach, motivational speaker, and author. Matt wrote what I think is one of the most revealing leadership books out there. It's called rebound. And let me tell you, it's jam packed with insights on what to do when things don't go your way. Because let's be real, if you lead long enough, there's a possibility you just might find yourself in a situation that's really tough, or really unfair, or just downright painful. But listen to Matt today, because I want you to see what it looks like when you persevere and learn from adversity. Because those tough moments can actually reveal incredible insights and incredible opportunities. So let's get into it. Here's my conversation with my good friend Han soon to be yours, Matt Doherty.

When this airs, I can't help but bringing this up, because you're an expert, this area will be stepping into another year of March Madness. what teams do you think will be battling it out? In the end?

Matt Doherty 1:48

I just think that there's so much parity. I've said that every year, but more and more, there's more more parity, I think with the transfer portal, and the NIHL out there, that players now are going where the best opportunities are in some of that those opportunities of financial. And so you see, the SEC has really gotten strong over the last few years, because I think they're committed to the NFL process a little bit more. So teams like Alabama, Tennessee, have really ramped up their investment in players. So who's going to be standing Kansas has the team Kentucky's very young Kentucky beat Kansas earlier this year. I like Purdue I think Mack painter's a heck of a coach. And he's due to go to the Final Four. And I wouldn't forget Rick Barnes at Tennessee, I think Rick's done a really good job and has a nice team. But I'll tell you what, there's probably probably 15 to 20 teams that could win a national championship.

David Novak 2:48

And you know, speaking of great teams in 1982, you won the national championship in North Carolina, where you played with the likes of Michael Jordan and James worthy. What's the behind the scenes story from that tournament that you love to tell

Matt Doherty 3:03

ya? Oh, gosh, well, we almost lost in the first round on to James Madison, we blew him out. 5452 I think the score was you know, there wasn't anything particular David, but you've been on great teams. And you may have been on some bad teams. And I think the chemistry is the thing that is so important. We had great players. And James worthy was our best player. That year, even though Michael Jordan was on the team. Michael is a freshman. But he's so unselfish. And I think that we really got along. And we cared about one thing, and that was to win a national championship. And so I don't know if there's any one behind the scenes thing that I can remember. But that was about 40 years ago, so I'm not sure I remember what I had for breakfast. You

David Novak 3:58

know, as I understand it, you were the CO captain of the team that year and how did that kind of recognition drive you? Well,

Matt Doherty 4:05

you know, Coach Smith really invested in the seniors and, and so I was a captain co captain, my last year. And that was a team with Michael Jordan as a junior Sam Perkins was the senior with me. He valued the upperclassmen, and really, really gave credit to the upperclassmen in victories and took credit for losses in defeat. And I think that, you know, good leaders do give credit to their employees, to their soldiers to the people out in the field. And when things don't go, well, they need to be, you know, being held accountable, hold themselves accountable, and not throw anybody under the bus. So there was an expectation that you earned you earned your stripes at North Carolina. You may play a lot as a freshman or sophomore but you still had the biggest voice as a senior,

David Novak 5:01

what's something about preparing for that night of a national championship game that every leader can learn from?

Matt Doherty 5:10

experience helps. We were in the championship game the year before. And we had three starters. Coming back plus me I was a sixth man. I played a lot. And then we had Michael Jordan come in as a freshman. So the experience definitely helps. And I remember when we were playing Georgetown, and they had Patrick Ewing, and I think John Thompson, their legendary coach said to Patrick, you know, anything around the basket block, I don't care if it's goaltending. And I remember they Patrick, I think, goaltender the first four shots. And I remember huddling the team up and kind of smiled and said, hey, you know, if they're going to do that, just throw the ball into James, let him turn around and shoot it. And if they want to goaltender it, you know that they're not going to intimidate us because we've been there before. And we had played against Ralph Sampson, who had Virginia was seven foot four, so Ewing's not intimidating us. So I think that experience helped. But the one comment, and I was blessed David to play for Dean Smith, legendary coach. And I remember, he said before the game, he said, there's 8 billion people in China that don't care who wins this game. And basically, go out and play, like, relax. And I think the thing that you want to do, there's two sides of a coin, you know, there's fear and nerves like and turn the fear the nerves into like butterflies, like, get excited, instead of fearful, don't get paralyzed. And I think being in the moment, and just letting yourself like I always try to as an athlete play in the zone. What is the zone? Well, the zone is when things you don't have to think about things you are present, and you're not thinking about the next play. You're not thinking about the last play. And I think that's what Coach Smith really had us do is to play in the moment and you will make mistakes in business, you will make mistakes, learn from them. But don't let them fester so that they become a snowball of mistakes move on quickly. And so I think the biggest thing is being present and just enjoying it like going out there. This 63,000 people in that game is the largest crowd first time they played in the dome Drina at that point. And like enjoy it, look around and say man like this? Who's that dude up there? I can't see him. He could hardly see me. I don't know how much you pay for that ticket. 63,000 people here instead of being fear, oh my gosh, 63,000 people, what if I make a mistake, enjoy it, I think embrace the moment.

David Novak 7:50

That's great advice. And I want to get into how you lead and all that you're doing a dirty coaching. But first, I want to take you back. I know you're a big believer in meritocracy. Tell us a story from your upbringing that really drove that home for you. The park where I grew

Matt Doherty 8:05

up playing basketball was three blocks from my house. And I remember going there pretty much every day I could, you would choose sides. And the best two best players would choose sides and then they go okay be like you and I choose sides. And you know, we we choose for it. I don't have people cues anymore, but like one thing or two fingers, and I'd call odds or evens. And if I want I get the first pick and then you start negotiating. It's like okay, you got the first pick, I get the second two. And then you know, these are kids now young people learning how to negotiate. It's not organized by adults. And then if I felt that Joe was the best player and could help me when I'm going to pick Joe then you pick your player then we go down the line to we have five aside and then if you win, you stayed on the court and loser set and the next team came up and so if you could help of team when you got to play there's no politics it just meritocracy. You know, you earn the right to play you earn the right to stay on the court. Whether it was you know, five young guys, three black guys, two white guys, it didn't matter. It just all about winning and staying on the court. You

David Novak 9:22

know, I used to work at Pepsi. So I got to ask you this when I you know I understand your dad was a Pepsi route salesman. What did you learn watching him in action?

Matt Doherty 9:31

Wow. I wrote about this the other day. My dad I was so blessed David and I know your dad moved a lot and you know that helped you develop relationships and you had to start a new a lot. My dad owned a Pepsi route back then you own the route. So as his business and a couple of things stand out. He got up early every day. Like when I got up to go to school. He was already gone. And it could be sunny out here. It could be blistering hot out, it could be snowing out, it could be raining out, it could be ice out, he went to work. And I'd go two weeks out of the summer when I was old enough, say fourth, fifth sixth grade, I'd help him. And he had a guy at work with some guy named Willie house. And we would get to the plant, Long Island City. It's an iconic sign, as you know, on the East River, we would load the truck, we would drive through the Midtown Tunnel and his route was in Greenwich Village. I sat in the middle between hay and a helper and a stick shift and you know, we'd be bouncing on the cobblestone streets. And we get out and we park or double park and then we go to whatever grocery store das Dino's a bodega, whatever. And then you generally had to go down the basement, you know, like, you see those metal things in the sidewalk, you'd open them up, and then you had to go like straight down with a hand truck and get soda down there. And then sometimes I had to label them. My dad, I never saw him in a bad mood. He'd come home from work, if I had a ballgame. He was there might be in his Pepsi uniform, but he was there. And after my game, win or lose, he would say, good game, let's go get some ice cream. And we'd go to friendlies and get some ice cream. I just think his work ethic and he was always positive.

David Novak 11:30

You know, you were a McDonald's, all American in high school. And then you go to North Carolina to play for, you know, Dean Smith, who you you've already mentioned. But when you think about that time with Dean Smith at North Carolina, what would be the single biggest lesson that you learn from him as a player,

Matt Doherty 11:50

I think it's hard to say. And those lessons kind of evolve as you evolve in your life. So now as an executive coach, and a keynote speaker, I talk a lot about culture. And, you know, for a while there, I had a hard time defining culture and how to implement it. Coach Smith would talk about crazy actions you want repeated and catch people doing something right. And I think that I was a find the flaw coach for a while. And through some my failure and going on a leadership journey that was brought to my attention by an executive coach, and I tried to be better at praising the actions you want repeated. And so how do you drive a good culture, it starts with core values in North Carolina, it was play hard play smart play together. And then it was behaviors that were rooted in your core values, like hit the first open man. And then the hardest thing for any leader to do, I believe, is holding people accountable. Because inevitably, somebody's going to show up late, somebody's going to take a bad shot, somebody's gonna do something that isn't something you approve of. But if you let it slide, your culture is what you allow. So I think driving a culture, establishing a culture is probably one of the biggest if not the biggest thing I learned from Dean Smith. Now,

David Novak 13:16

your first job out of college was as a bond salesman at Kidder Peabody. Yeah, how that happened. And what did it teach you?

Matt Doherty 13:25

I tell you what, I got cut by the NBA. And I was devastated. And I turned my back on basketball because I felt it turned its back on me. I always was one that have backup plans. And sometimes that's not a good thing. But so I had an interest in business and Wall Street. I knew some people there and I thought it'd be cool to make money and it was sexy in the 80s. You know, Gordon Gekko and all that stuff. So I went to Wall Street, I quickly realized that I didn't like talking about bond yields, that I like to sell something that's more tangible, that you can see feel or touch. I didn't like selling you know, I had to sell, again, numbers. So I think it's important to learn what you don't like. And I also learned the value of phone sales, though I was institutional sales and Sam Marrone was the sales manager who's a marine tough guy, good guy. But he said, anytime you pick up the phone, make sure you're adding value. Like don't call somebody just say so just checking in. You know, basically, you got to throw me a trade today. And then the last thing and I still use this, when you get the order, hang up the phone. don't oversell, right. So like I learned that in recruiting. I learned that now when somebody commits to my coaching practice, I say, okay, great. We'll send you the contract and look forward to seeing you and following up next week. You oversell and all of a sudden someone's like, oh, wait, oh, oh, really. I have to come once a month for eight hours. And I don't know, let me think about this. So the phone sales, adding value, knowing what you don't like, and when you get the order hang up the phone.

David Novak 15:09

So good learning there. You know what led you Matt down the path of coaching?

Matt Doherty 15:13

Yeah, I think a couple things I was interested in broadcasting while I was working on Wall Street. So I went to St. Francis, college and did the radio. And I was doing the radio. And as I was doing the radio, I realized I wanted to be in the huddle, not outside the huddle. And so I started to fall back in love with basketball. And then I went quit my job and moved to Charlotte in 1989, thinking I was going to get into real estate business. And a guy was working for at sockwell ran a search firm and gave me a part time job. But he also ran an AAU team, and he needed an eighth grade coach. So he asked me if I'd coach I said I would. And I immediately fell in love with it. I loved every part of it. The planning, the practices, the camaraderie, I enjoyed every part of it. I was doing radio at Davidson at the time for the Davidson basketball team. They made a coaching change and hired Bob MacKillop, who was my high school coach on Long Island. And Bob then went on to be the all time winning coach at Davidson. He'll be in the Hall of Fame soon. And most notably, Coach Steph Curry at Davidson College. So yeah, I just rolled into it. And I loved coaching man, I loved it. I loved I remember, I was coaching Kansas for Roy Williams for seven years. And lottery was up to some crazy number, let's say 100 million. And I was sitting around the pool with a couple of friends. And the topic comes up, like, what would you do if you hit the lottery? And, you know, one guy says, Oh, I quit my job. And I do this. And another guy says, I quit my job and do that. And it gets to me. And I thought for a minute, I said, I keep doing what I'm doing. Like, that's when you know you really passionate about what you're doing?

David Novak 17:08

Absolutely. It started out, as you said, as an assistant at Davidson, and then on to Kansas, where you spent seven years working for Roy Williams, another great coach and, and you gained this incredible reputation for being a world class recruiter. What did you do to make recruiting one of your superpowers?

Matt Doherty 17:28

That, you know, it's funny because I didn't like selling bond yields. But I love selling the opportunity to go to the school I was working at. And I wasn't a good salesman on Wall Street, but I was a good salesman in college athletics. You know, somebody asked me this recently, what are your strengths? And how to think about it. And I thought, you know, I'm pretty good at building trusting authentic relationships quickly. And I enjoy people, I enjoy learning about people. And I think that growing up the way I grew up witnessing my parents who were always the last car to leave church at St. Raphael's on Sundays, because they were in the parking lot talking to everybody. So I had that model. And so I could connect with people. And it could be, you know, some rich family. In New York City, it could be a poor family in LA, it could be, you know, a white family, a black family, a farmer in Kansas, it could be and I think I had ability and enjoyed doing that and also is competitive, like I like to win. And, you know, okay, so what's the competition doing? You know, and you find out that one thing I'm good at now is asking questions. Okay, as an executive coach, that's helpful. Well, as a recruiter, that's helpful. So you know, if I'm recruiting you, David, tell me, what are you looking for in school? Okay, what's important to your family? Tell me about you know, your dreams. Give me a list of your favorites. And then I would connect, and you know, I get a list and I was detailed and make sure your names are spelled right. And I would then really pursue you and the people around you and make sure that you control what you control and no one was going to outwork me. And I thought I built authentic relationships pretty quickly and develop the trust.

David Novak 19:31

Well, DAN HURLEY and his UConn Huskies have gotten a coveted number one seed in this year's tournament. And now it's time to see if they can go back to back as national champions, like my Kansas City Chiefs. If you missed it, I had a great conversation with Dan earlier this year, where we talked about what it takes to win a title and why you've got to keep pushing yourself, even after big success,

Dan Hurley 19:57

like anyone else that pushes themselves hard on Uh, the goalposts always move. So for me, I think I always dreamed of winning a national championship. You have now, now you you dream of becoming a Hall of Fame coach. So I just think that the goalposts always move and you're always want the next thing.

David Novak 20:17

So scroll back in the feed to Episode 169. If you want to hear the whole conversation with DAN HURLEY, here on how leaders lead

you have some really creative ways to bring your players in and get them attracted to you, including an air sickness bag. Yeah. Tell us about that one.

Matt Doherty 20:43

Well, you make it personal. Right. So how do you stand out? How do you stand out from your competition? You know, your marketing, right? So I want it to stand out. So I'm in the plane, and I see this air sickness bag, and I get obsessed. And I think you have to be somewhat obsessed is a strong word. But like, if you're passionate about what you're doing, you're thinking about it all the time. And so I'm in a plane, I see an air sickness bag, I think I have a decent sense of humor. So I write on the bags. And David, I'd be sick if you don't come to Kansas, and send that to you. So that's different, right? Because the top recruits in the country are getting maybe 100 letters a day, maybe 50. So I want them to open my letter. And when they see that, and they smile and laugh. They're going to show it to their family. And I'm going to separate myself from the competition. I

David Novak 21:38

love that, you know, Matt, you paid your dues as an assistant. And then you were offered the head coaching position at Notre Dame. And I got to ask you, what was it like going in to Notre Dame, which is a football school? It's not a basketball school? It certainly wasn't back then. And you know, you're going to be the basketball coach now at Notre Dame. What's that like? Well,

Matt Doherty 22:02

Tinker Phelps had success there in the 70s and the early 80s. It's maybe the most prestigious university, one of them in the world. There's benefits to being second fiddle at a school, you know, you can maybe withstand a downturn in the market a little longer. The heat's not on you. But yet, you can build a really good program. And Billy Donovan did that at Florida, in Florida was considered a football school and he won back to back national championships. So the thing is to turn, take advantage of what you have. Right? And so you have this noteworthy university, you have these alumni all over the country. And then you have fun with it. Like I remember, I remember taking kids on campus, and you know this, they call it touchdown Jesus, right? I'd walk a kid on campus has a you know, you know, we call that here, we call that three point, Jesus. I mean, they they love basketball here at Notre Dame. And so I went to the student body and I after practice, in the fall, I met with three house, they don't have fraternities, they have basically dorms that are, you know, men, and then women storms. And so there's a lot of pride in those dorms. And so I'd go into three dorms a night after practice, and get them fired up and tell them the importance that they're going to make in our program. This this is a contact sport, and I met with some people today I'm like, What is your vision for your company? Like, why should people want to follow you? What excites your team, and I told our team that, you know, I had three goals, you know, our first goal is to get better today. Second one was to win our next game. Third was to win the Big East regular season. Fourth was to win the biggest tournament and fifth was to win a national championship. And I said, we're gonna put Notre Dame basketball back on the map, you know, paint that picture and get them to buy in. And once you get buy in, now you can hold them accountable with when there's a bad practice that Hey, guys, I thought you said you wanted to win a national championship. I thought you said you want to put Notre Dame back on the map. This type of behavior today isn't going to do it. And

David Novak 24:21

you got off to a flying start because your very first game was against Ohio State which happened to be ranked fifth in the country at the time. And you won. You know, how do you celebrate with your players after a big win like that? Well,

Matt Doherty 24:35

take a step back five days prior, we had played an exhibition game against a team called Marathon Oil now, a lot of teams were put together and sponsored by different companies and one was Marathon Oil and they would go around and play. Get former college players and play against college teams and you allowed to exhibition games before the season started. Ohio State had played Marathon Oil, I think the night before us and beat him by 25. We played them and lost by 25. And the next day we're supposed to have off. And I looked at the paper and the paper in the South Bend Tribune reads, you know, the subtitle was the lackadaisical effort dunes, the Irish, my body started to get warm. And then hot and smoke was coming out of my ears. So I said to my coaches, I said, we're going to have practice today, but no basketballs. And so the players showed up. And I said, you know, guys, I've been called a lot of things. But you know, lackadaisical is not one of them. I said, we're gonna play hard. I use coaches, core values, play hard, play smart play together. And I said, that wasn't it. I had raised a million dollars to get new locker room. I said, I raised a million dollars for you guys. I said, I spend more time with you guys than my family. I did make it personal. I said, you're gonna give me that. You're gonna give us that? No, on the baseline. And they ran sprints, and they ran sprints. And they ran sprints. And they ran some more sprints, and to the point where some guys were falling out. And I said, Fine, get out. You know, you're not tough enough, get out. And we ran for about, I don't know, an hour. Finally, I was done with them. They didn't like me, I didn't like them. Five days later, we go into Columbus, Ohio, beat number five, Ohio State, Ohio State on the last second shot. I'm getting goosebumps talking about it right now, when it's a locker room. I remember talking to Bill Raftery after the game with my son and my arm on ESPN. And they're in the locker room, they came out into the hallway to greet me. And, you know, that's the beautiful thing about sports, you know, you get high highs, you get some low lows, but those moments are very special. And the players then we had a bus ride about whatever it was back to South Bend. When he got to the locker room, they wrote 304 on the whiteboard, well, three or four, apparently by their calculation was the number of Sprint's they ran. And so that was kind of our calling card the rest of the year where they put it on their sneakers, they would talk about three or four, three or four. Like if we can do that we've got enough in the tank to play hard tonight. And I love coaching that team I love coach at Notre Dame and some ways I wish I stayed there forever. You turn

David Novak 27:40

the program around and you didn't win the national championship that year. But you did take Notre Dame to the all the way to the finals of the NIT tournament. And then just after one season at Notre Dame, you know, taking on this new job, you get a shot to become a head coach at North Carolina. How do you process that decision?

Matt Doherty 27:59

You know what's weird in, in corporate America, I imagine you have more time to make a decision. In college athletics, you really have a short window maybe two to seven days before you can make a decision because recruiting and you're afraid of players defecting from your old place. And, and so you really need to process it quickly. And the challenge for me that I do believe that we all need a personal board of directors, right. So somebody's not emotionally tied to your organization, but tied to you and helping you make good decisions. The problem with me at that point was my personal board of directors was Roy Williams and Dean Smith. And so they both had something at stake Roy turned the job down at North Carolina, he was at Kansas, he turned the job down to go back to North Carolina. So Dean Smith is now calling me and having Michael Jordan call me to take the job at North Carolina. So where did I go to get objective feedback on if this is the right thing to do? I didn't have it. I didn't have it. You know, so I had to go through the process almost, you know, alone. I mean, I did talk with my wife and Deke Vitale is calling me he's a Notre Dame fan. He wants me to stay at Notre Dame. You know, the ad at Notre Dame obviously wants me to stay at Notre Dame. And so I just didn't know where to turn. So I went to the grotto at Notre Dame I prayed. And then your mind starts playing tricks on you to have good options is a burden. Like sometimes it's better not to have options, and just work your tail off at the job you have. But when you have options, that can be a burden. So I remember, you know, do I stay at Notre Dame or go to North Carolina, and I'm saying I need a sign. You know, I went to the grotto prayed and I'm thinking, God, give me a sign. And I'm in Walmart, and I'm walking the aisles of Walmart and a guy turns the corner he's wearing a UNC shirt. Like that's the same guy. Oh, Carolina, sir. I've gone to I'm going to Chapel Hill. Yeah, I mean, it was it was idiotic. But it was crazy. But it was probably too much to turn down. I've

David Novak 30:10

heard you talk about read about you bringing what you thought North Carolina needed at the time was accountability and toughness. You know, how do you go about that

Matt Doherty 30:20

managing change is an art form. And I talked about in the book you referenced earlier, the six knows of leadership kn ows. And the first one is knowing yourself. The second one is knowing your team. The third one is knowing your environment. And then knowing your vision, knowing your industry, mining for the truth, the environment. North Carolina needed the same kind of kick in the pants, I felt that Notre Dame needed in terms of an injection of toughness, and competitiveness. The problem was North Carolina had success. North Carolina had gone to the final for the year before, they had gone to final for two years prior. And there was basically massive success for 36 straight years, and there was a lot of people still in place. At Notre Dame, not as many people cared, they needed change, and they knew they needed change. So I had kind of the green light to impose my will on the program. We're at North Carolina I didn't. So my style was not appreciated. And that didn't show up until you lost, right? I mean, it's okay, winning, Seuss everything. But once you start losing, now, all of a sudden, the chirping starts. And I didn't have the internal support, I don't think at North Carolina that I did at Notre Dame. And so if you have some people that are kind of not supporting your message, and maybe even worse, stirring a fire, it's hard to gain traction. And I think that's where I wasn't good at managing the change, I should have gotten slower with change. I should have referred to Coach Smith, because he was the legend. You know, in the building, his name's on the building. And I probably should have deferred to him. Although in the recruiting process, he said to me, it's your program, run it how you see fit. And I'm a little real person. So I took that literally from a man that I trusted, you know, so I look back and I cringe I was just naive. I think I was really naive.

David Novak 32:34

Well, your first year, give you a little credit here. It was a slam dunk. I mean, you kick butt and you were named the National Coach of the Year. I mean, your first year. So now you've been a head coach, the first one you turn around Notre Dame second year, you become a national coach of the year. You know, how did that impact you? Well,

Matt Doherty 32:53

it felt great. Obviously, we beat Duke and Duke for the first time in five years, it was magical. You know, we were on, I think one of 18 game winning streak one of the longest winning streaks in Carolina history. It was awesome. But as a coach, when your team is doing well, you try to tighten the screws because things get loose. All of a sudden, people think, oh, you know, we're successful, we're winning. So you know, we could take a little time off, maybe show up a little late or, or come back from lunch a half hour late or cut out a little early on Friday to go play golf for you. No, no, no, no, no, that's when you need to tighten the screws. And I tried to do that with my team. And because I could tell we weren't getting better and detail into that winning streak. But they took it as like I was too hard on it. And maybe I didn't deliver it and emotionally intelligent way. But I remember a game at Wake Forest, we beat Wake Forest at Wake Forest. And after the game, I was like disappointed. Like guys, we didn't play well. We're lucky we only reason we won this game. We're more talented. And if we continue to play this way, it's not going to end well. And we then lost a game at Clemson and then only won five or last 10 games, because we kept going this way. And we hit a bottom. And it just took us too long to try to write the ship and was never able to write the ship. And so it was disappointing at the end of the season,

David Novak 34:23

still coach of the year and I found it interesting that before you took over as the head coach in North Carolina, you told the athletic director that your second season there was going to be tough. I mean, you're already laying the track. You said hey, my second season is going to be tough. And you are right. You know the talent wasn't there. You knew it wasn't going to be there. The team goes eight and 20 the worst season in North Carolina history. When you're having a year like that, how do you keep a team motivated? First

Matt Doherty 34:53

of all, like in business, you know what's in the funnel right? Backlog you call it backlog right? You have backlog and so you know What's in the funnel? You kind of see what the secession plan looks like. And so without, you know saying anything negative, I told the idea that exactly what you said. So the second year it's a real challenge, a fun challenge, you know, you got to embrace it like, this is a challenge this, this, someone once said, you know, like, you could look at it one or two ways, oh, the sky is falling, or this is only gonna make the story better. Like Coach K almost got fired his third year at Duke, Coach Smith, they hung him in effigy. So this is only going to make the story better. I'm tough enough to get through this. Are you tough enough? Let's get through this. Let's focus on getting better today. I go back to my goals. five goals. First goal get better today. Alright, win your next game. win the ACC championship, winning so forgot to win the national championship. We get better today. And you don't measure it wins losses. And I think that Nick Saban, I look at Nick Saban, I admire him a great deal. It is about the process. You know, it is about that? Are you getting better today. And that's something that we tried to do. And I didn't judge them on the score, I judge them on performance.

David Novak 36:19

You rebound in your third year and you win 19 games, but then you you get fired. And I gotta tell you, here's my perspective, just as a leader watching what's happening to you, and here's what I think happened. Okay. Roy Williams, another North Carolina, a great coach at Kansas, he's on the market, he's open to the move to go back to North Carolina. So he's, he's in the hopper, you have an OK season, but you didn't make it into March Madness, just get to play in the NIT, the athletic director, he wants to hire Roine. Okay, always wanted to hire Roy, and goes on a witch hunt. And he doesn't have your back, he listens to the players gripe about you how tough you are on him. And he gets enough bad info from everybody to give him what he needs to pull the trigger on you. Then he commits what I think is the sin of any leader. He fires you without giving you any coaching? You know, he didn't give you any coaching? Tell you what you could do better. Give you a second chance, man, don't you think they owe that to you to lock arms with you and to work with you on whatever issues you're having at the time? Did I get a ride or not? And that's how I look at it.

Matt Doherty 37:39

Are you darn close, David? I mean, the Witch Hunt was real. I remember after the last game, I said, you know, there's always some fallout after a season at a place like that. And so I talked to the athletic director, I said, Listen, I'd like you to talk to the players, just to assure them that everything's good. And they hear from you in a different voice. The next day, I call him and he said, I said how to go. He said it didn't go so well. And I'm like, What do you mean? And he said, Well, you know, the some of the players brought in the Dean of Students. I'm like, Why did you bring in the Dean of Students? So I was naive, I trusted them. And you're right. I think that, you know, there were conversations. And I think Coach Smith wanted Coach Williams from the beginning. And so now there was, you know, an opportunity. And I think the team got to the point where the talent was in place. That made it even more attractive job. And so the change was made. The thing that disappoint one of the many things that's disappointing. Is that shoot me straight. Tell me to my face. You say good things. I'll say good things. If you don't say good things could get ugly. We'll pay you. I mean, coaches now getting paid $75 million, not to coach. You know, Jimbo Fisher, I had a weak contract. I trusted my university I should have used a lawyer from the beginning is a state institution. I got paid. I think $450,000 over like three years. And when I see coaches get fired now and they're getting paid 10s of $75 million. I'm like, Oh my God, you know, so I just wish somebody would have come to me and said, Listen, this is not good. I'm sorry. It will say good things. You say good things will help you get your next job. You know, we'll put you to work here in university. It was none of that. The Chancellor ripped me in the press conference. I remember watching it with my wife on TV. I couldn't believe it. You know, we talked about Carolina family and I felt like I was betrayed and and getting stabbed in the gut.

Koula Callahan 40:03

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David Novak 40:56

Now, man, I've got one more, two years later, North Carolina wins a national title with a team that was largely recruited by you, and no one ever talks about it. It's like you were written out of the history books, that's gonna break your heart. I mean, how do you get over something like that, and you know, we're going to turn the corner now, it because you have definitely turned the corner. But I mean, I'm just setting the stage. I

Matt Doherty 41:19

remember when that game that starting five was the starting five, I had my last year. And two years later, they win the national championship. And, and I remember, sitting in the green room, I was doing some TV, and I was just like, oh my gosh, you know, that's my team. And that should be me, climbing the ladder. And you know, it's still hard and never got any recognition. You know, the fans recognize me, you know, but I never just a letter phone call. Thank you. And that is disappointing. But when I went back to coaching, in 2005, right after that championship, I started coaching again. And I took the job at FAU, ironically, now they're they went to the Final Four, I dealt with depression, I went to dark places, and ended up seeing some doctors and taking some medication and because my identity was wrapped up in basketball, and then I also remember talking to an executive coach Fran Johnston and, and I tried to justify it, you know, I said, Oh, this happens in business all the time. You know, people get fired. And, you know, she says, No, you don't get it. She said, You trusted some people at the age of 17 years old, and you felt like you were let down. And like that put things in perspective. So, you know, I'm over it now. But I'll never be fully over it. And I think you get over it through moving forward, finding fulfilling work. And also, you know, through God through Jesus, you know, like, if Jesus could get crucified and forgive the people who crucified him, I could forgive and I've talked about this in books, the people that I felt might have wronged me, but also think forgiveness has to also start with yourself. And, you know, we're not perfect, we make mistakes, and I made some mistakes. And I have to own that and, and realize that, you know, I don't understand the path. But okay, God, you put me on this path. And let me do you know, work for you in

David Novak 43:30

the leadership space. You know, CEOs often have difficulty when their predecessors stay actively involved on their board, many think they should exit completely. I became executive chairman at yum brands. And I know half the board members thought I should be out of there. Okay. They just thought you'd need to get out of there. I was casting too big a shadow. There's no way the new guy coming in was going to have a chance to be the CEO. But when you're in North Carolina, you got Dean Smith there, he he's always lurking in the background. What did you learn from the way out he handled his so called retirement? And what advice would you give other leaders? Maybe

Matt Doherty 44:08

it's not much different in business or, you know, on a college campus. They are such a big part of the institution. They are worshipped. They're honored. And so the school wants to take advantage of that through fundraising. You know, I think Roy Williams works for the university. Now, Jay, Jay, right at Villanova works for the President. So they really don't want those people to go away. So I think the best thing to do in that situation would be to totally embrace that former coach and have them involved in every way shape or form that they want to be involved in. So looking back when Coach Smith said, you know, and I'm independent I also have to know yourself like going to six knows leadership. I have to know myself better. I don't I'd like to be told what to do. I'm independent thinker. So maybe I shouldn't have taken the job. But Coach Smith's editor of program, run it how you see fit. So I took that literally. And looking back, I should have embraced him and really let him run the program through me, at least early on, or this sounds maybe weird, give him the impression that I was running the program through him. Okay. A friend of mine, who's writing a book said, good leadership is manipulation with good intent. You know, now, manipulation sounds like a bad word, maybe influence. So, you know, include him. And I didn't, I didn't include him. I remember some one of his friends called me. He said, at the end of the season, he said, you know, you need to call coach more, you need to include him more, like call him more. He's retired, like, I don't want to bother him. And my relationship with him as player coach, he was always somewhat of an intimidating factor. So if I had to do it again, I would have probably run every major decision through him. But I also was afraid that what if he gave me an answer that I didn't like, and I went against it, you know,

David Novak 46:13

a mat. Uh, you know, I don't know you that well, but I know you well enough. That's that'd be disingenuous to you. I mean, that's not what you want. You could have sold your soul down the river. Okay. But you know, you got screwed. Okay. I mean, you know, there's, there's no doubt about it. But the good news is, your passion has evolved now, from coaching to leadership. Let's turn the corner. How did that happen? How did you get so passionate about leadership? Now,

Matt Doherty 46:40

when I got fired at North Carolina, I went on a leadership journey. And a friend of mine, John black, personal board of directors, gave me a recommendation. He said, take a year off and do something positive with your time because when you get back to coaching, people are going to ask what did you do? You have this gap in your resume. So he said, I worked with an executive coach at UVA named Carol Weber. I'll introduce you. So I met with Carol Webber and did a half day session with her. Did the Myers Briggs assessment. We talked, I took her class that her husband, Jack, and she ran on leadership. We talked a lot about case studies. And I remember like, wow, oh my gosh, there's so much I don't know, I did the Myers Briggs assessment. I walked in there depressed now my shoulders were down, my head was down. And she said to me, okay, you know, I have to some small talk, you know, Myers Briggs assessment, you're an E and TJ. And I remember thinking, ENT, TJ, I haven't called the four letter words before, but never an EN TJ. And she said, only 2% of the population are en ti J's. And I'm thinking, oh, man, I'm elite, like only 2% of the population. I'm elite. And I think she read my body language who said no, you don't get it. That means 98% of the population don't think like you think. And that was an aha moment for me to realize, started to understand self awareness and emotional intelligence. And then I went to took a class at Wharton week long class and met Fran Johnson. And she used an executive coach, she taught a class on emotional intelligence. From the book, Primal leadership, the I think it's the art of emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman. And those ladies, those classes, changed my life and got me excited. Because at that point, David, I was told I wasn't a good leader. So I thought you either born a leader or you're not. And now I read and was told that hey, leadership is a learned behavior. I got excited about that. And I just tried to soak up everything I could about leadership.

David Novak 48:56

Tell me about your Doherty coaching practice and, and all you and your team do. Our focus

Matt Doherty 49:01

is mainly executive coaching. I'm a Vistage chair Vistage is one of the oldest executive coaching organizations in the country. So I meet with business owners, CEOs in the Charlotte metro area. I also have some independent clients in different parts of the country that I work with. And I do keynote talks, I enjoy doing keynote talks. It's like me getting on stage. It's like a pregame talk that I'm giving to the group. So I focus there. And in addition, I do have the rebound podcast. I wrote the book rebound from paying the passion. I enjoy everything in the leadership space.

David Novak 49:40

How do you teach someone to be coachable coach,

Matt Doherty 49:43

who your life's impacted by three things. The people you meet the books you read, and the trauma in your life, and if someone's not coachable and they don't get it through books or people they need some trauma I just hope it's, it's it's not terminal. I think a lot of trauma is good for a lot of people and it's humbling in you little humility, combined with confidence. You get class. You know, there's

David Novak 50:15

been so much fun and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? Okay, sure. Thanks. So what's one word others would use to best describe you intense? What would you say is the one word that best describes you? Intense? Who would play you in a movie?

Matt Doherty 50:33

Well, I tell you what, I've gotten to know Jim Caviezel, who was in the passion. Jim's a big basketball guy. And I'll say Jim Caviezel. If

David Novak 50:44

you could be one person beside yourself for a day, who would it be?

Matt Doherty 50:48

It's Larry Bird. Or Mick Jagger.

David Novak 50:52

As a coach, what's your biggest pet peeve?

Matt Doherty 50:55

untied shoelaces, double knot? You got to double knot your shoelaces.

David Novak 50:59

What's the word or phrase you'd use to describe? Beating Duke? Duke?

Matt Doherty 51:05

Sweet.

David Novak 51:06

Playing with Michael Jordan dz. The Tar Heels fan base. Oh

Matt Doherty 51:12

man, I want to say a lot of things. A lot of good things. They are pure. They're pure fans. Termites. Termites. One word would be termites would be you know, jealousy.

David Novak 51:25

What's something you miss about basketball back when there was no three point line?

Matt Doherty 51:30

The fastbreak? You know, just the traditional Three on two fastbreak?

David Novak 51:34

What's your biggest faux PA?

Matt Doherty 51:37

I had many. Many, many, many, many faux pas. Gosh. Yeah, there's too many say probably not managing change. Well at North Carolina. Okay,

David Novak 51:53

you win the lottery today. Okay, what would you do?

Matt Doherty 51:57

If I win the lottery? Today? I probably coach high school basketball.

David Novak 52:00

If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Fierce

Matt Doherty 52:04

conversations. It's a book written by a former Vistage chair about having Crucial Conversations.

David Novak 52:12

What's something about you? Few people would know, alright, we're going

Matt Doherty 52:16

deep. And I like it. I'm an alcoholic. I gave up drinking 34 years ago, and was one of the things I'm most proud of in my life.

David Novak 52:25

Fantastic. And that's the end of the lightning round. And Good job, man. I knew you'd be good at it. You were okay. Just a handful of questions. I'm gonna let you go. Sure. You talk a lot about the importance of executive assistants in your book. Talk about that? Well,

Matt Doherty 52:42

I think as a leader, you need to learn to leverage talent, you need to learn to delegate. I think that's one thing that one of many things that people go up the org chart they struggle with is delegation. I was talking to a client today about it. And so to have a good executive assistant, that can, you know, return calls, set up appointments, do things that you don't need to do or shouldn't do frees you up to do the things that I think a CEO shouldn't be doing. And that's casting a vision driving culture engaging large business transactions. And so you need a good ie a executive assistant, to manage your day to day and be your gatekeeper.

David Novak 53:32

You've talked about two very impactful executive coaches in your career. When do you think a leader should go outside and get a an executive coach and get that outside perspective?

Matt Doherty 53:46

I think that they should go outside and get an executive coach before they take on the role of a CEO. It's preparing, like Wayne Gretzky says something like anticipate where the puck is going. And so how can you prepare for that role of CEO because once you get the job, like that first 90 days, as you know, is crazy. So how can you be prepared for that first 90 days? And I think that it's like training for the season. It's like preparing for college when you're in high school and the NBA when you it's training camp. So I think the sooner the better. And I think admitting to not knowing everything, and being curious and having somebody that you can be vulnerable with and know is not going to be weaponized against you is really healthy.

David Novak 54:46

You know, you keep a family picture on your desk to help you make decisions. Explain.

Matt Doherty 54:53

John black when I was back coaching, he told me that he put a picture of his family on his desk. And every decision he made was in their best interest, made it a lot easier for me to remember how to fire somebody when I was at SMU in Dallas. And you know that when you fire somebody, there's going to be resistance for the most part. And it usually takes three times to tell the person this isn't going to work out. And I remember each time I looked at the picture my family, so it gave me the resolve to stay strong and not cave in that moment.

David Novak 55:29

One of the things I really admire about you, Matt, in spite of a lot of the difficulties that you had, you've decided to take the high ground, you're able to bury the hatchet and move on, you know, what advice can you give to leaders on that aspect of life?

Matt Doherty 55:45

Yeah, well, that came from Kevin White, Kevin White was the ad that I left at Notre Dame. And he was one of the first people to call me when I lost my job in North Carolina. And ironically, he was at Duke at the time. And he said to me, no, maybe he's still at Notre Dame. And he said, take the high road, there's less traffic up there. And because it's so easy to get better, and it may feel good in the moment, but that's your fight or flight, emotion response, you need to really operate from the top of your mind, not the bottom of your mind. And you won't regret that right? You won't regret that.

David Novak 56:21

What do you see Matt as your personal mission today,

Matt Doherty 56:24

my mission statement is to make a positive impact on the people I meet. And the groups I work with by dropping breadcrumbs to the Lord. That

David Novak 56:31

is it. Fantastic. And last question, what's the best piece of advice you can give aspiring leaders,

Matt Doherty 56:38

be a lifelong learner? Stay curious. Like the guy from the DESeq use commercial, you know, Stay thirsty, my friend. I like to say stay curious, my friend.

David Novak 56:50

That's great. Well, Matt, I knew this would be a very powerful conversation. And it was and I want to thank you for being the leader that you are the leader that you've become being so open and vulnerable and taking the time to share your learnings with us today. Very, very powerful stuff.

Matt Doherty 57:07

Honored really, really flattered that you would have me on the show, and I hope that our paths will cross again soon.

David Novak 57:27

You know, I really admire Matt for how he rebounded after his time at North Carolina. It was painful. But he dove into leadership and found a new level of growth and strength and opportunity for himself. Maybe it's kind of like that 304 Sprint's that he made his team at Notre Dame run after they blew it and had a big loss. She Yeah, it was painful, but it showed the team what they were capable of. And that number 304 became a source of strength for their entire season. When you persevere through adversity, when you're brave enough to learn from it, I know you're going to uncover new levels of growth and opportunity for yourself too. I don't do this often. Because this podcast is not about touting books. But I have to tell you, I really encourage you to pick up a copy of Matt's book, because I think it has so many insights we can all learn from the book, again is called rebound. Like I mentioned earlier, it's one of the most revealing leadership books I've ever read. And I've read a lot of leadership books. His journey is so practical and inspiring and honest. And I know you're going to find a lot of value in it. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders look for the opportunities that come when you have adversity. Coming up next on how leaders leaders are always popular best of episode where we pull together the top insights from every guest from the last quarter, like this one with none other than Brian nickel, the Chief Executive Officer of

Brian Niccol 59:04

Chipotle, you're only as good as the talent that we can be attracting and energizing every day. And one of the things I say to everybody is, look, we are a place for ideas. And if you want to come to a place and you're willing to pressure test your ideas, we're going to give you a shot with those ideas to make it to market. We use a disciplined approach with it this Stage Gate process. But I think what gets these guys excited is their ideas more often than not make it you know whether it's in the digital space with you know, it was a couple years ago, we were experimenting with the metaverse to where we are today with how we use our rewards program to better engage with people. Or most recently, we're doing a food program called carne asada. These were all ideas that came from folks in our organization, put it through the Stage Gate process and then solid to market and when I talked to like Kurt Garner, the gentleman who runs all of our tech, we get a lot of people applying for these jobs because they want to bring their ideas to market and when they find out that we're a place that embraces the ideas will pressure test if it works, we're gonna put more fuel to the fire. And that's kind of the approach we've been taking. So

David Novak 1:00:12

be sure to come back again next week to hear more insights like that. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

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