[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_138":-5,"_139":-5,"_140":141,"_142":143,"_144":145},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":18,"_19":20,"_21":-5,"_22":23,"_24":25,"_26":27,"_28":29,"_30":31,"_32":33,"_34":35,"_36":37,"_38":39,"_40":41,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":-5,"_45":46,"_47":-5,"_48":49,"_50":51,"_52":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/2161/be-willing-to-let-go-of-the-past-for-an-even-better-future","id",2161,"title","Be willing to let go of the past for an even better future","subtitle","What went wrong at Blackberry","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.610\nI've been fortunate to be part of two incredible technology stories, one Black\n\n2\n00:00:05.610 --> 00:00:06.320\nberry and the\n\n3\n00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:07.520\nsecond Sonos.\n\n4\n00:00:07.520 --> 00:00:12.350\nWhen I was at Blackberry, we had a really important moment when we needed to\n\n5\n00:00:12.350 --> 00:00:14.320\npivot the organization,\n\n6\n00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:17.280\nin my opinion, to something called Blackberry Messenger.\n\n7\n00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:22.430\nIt was an opportunity at that point to grow something that was leading the\n\n8\n00:00:22.430 --> 00:00:23.160\nworld.\n\n9\n00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.240\nWe had 80 million daily active users in Blackberry Messenger.\n\n10\n00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:30.690\nAt this time, the only other messaging solution was WhatsApp at 5 million daily\n\n11\n00:00:30.690 --> 00:00:32.040\nactive users.\n\n12\n00:00:32.040 --> 00:00:36.810\nWe had the opportunity to take Blackberry Messenger and run it on iOS, Android,\n\n13\n00:00:36.810 --> 00:00:37.520\ndesktops, and\n\n14\n00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.820\nmake it the standard in the industry and probably take that 80 million and grow\n\n15\n00:00:40.820 --> 00:00:41.600\nit into hundreds\n\n16\n00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.880\nof millions of people using a messaging service that people love.\n\n17\n00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:50.680\nAt least 80 million were using on a daily active basis and absolutely loved.\n\n18\n00:00:50.680 --> 00:00:57.490\nI was unable to convince the organization that that was the right decision and\n\n19\n00:00:57.490 --> 00:00:58.960\npivot to make\n\n20\n00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:02.810\nand give up some of the hardware that was associated with Blackberry because at\n\n21\n00:01:02.810 --> 00:01:03.560\nthis point, if\n\n22\n00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.480\nyou wanted to be on Blackberry Messenger, you had to get a Blackberry phone.\n\n23\n00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.320\nAt that point as well, Blackberry phones were falling behind.\n\n24\n00:01:11.320 --> 00:01:16.860\nIn my opinion, at that point, we'd already begun to lose the race against iOS\n\n25\n00:01:16.860 --> 00:01:18.240\nand Android.\n\n26\n00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:22.250\nWe really needed to make this shift in order for us to continue and move\n\n27\n00:01:22.250 --> 00:01:23.000\nforward.\n\n28\n00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:27.270\nIt was classic innovators dilemma in not being able to give up the revenue\n\n29\n00:01:27.270 --> 00:01:28.000\nstream and that\n\n30\n00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:32.130\nbusiness of what we built in the past, the hardware, to be able to make that\n\n31\n00:01:32.130 --> 00:01:32.840\nshift into\n\n32\n00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:37.240\nthe services and across platform messaging service.\n\n33\n00:01:37.240 --> 00:01:40.050\nI think if we were able to do that, we would have been able to navigate the\n\n34\n00:01:40.050 --> 00:01:40.600\nfuture in a\n\n35\n00:01:40.600 --> 00:01:42.120\nmuch different way.\n\n36\n00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:44.400\nI think Blackberry would still be around more relevant.\n\n37\n00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.300\nIt wouldn't be known for phones, but it might be known as the standard\n\n38\n00:01:47.300 --> 00:01:48.240\nmessaging platform\n\n39\n00:01:48.240 --> 00:01:49.760\nthat's out there.\n\n40\n00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:54.310\nI do look back, particularly given I grew up inside the company and I'm a proud\n\n41\n00:01:54.310 --> 00:01:54.920\nCanadian\n\n42\n00:01:54.920 --> 00:02:00.560\nand it's a Canadian company, as the inability for me to convince the right\n\n43\n00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:02.320\npeople at Blackberry\n\n44\n00:02:02.320 --> 00:02:07.720\nto make that shift is probably the biggest failure of my career.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",672059,"end_time",799729,"keywords","innovator’s dilemma, sacred cow, change management, risk","slug","be-willing-to-let-go-of-the-past-for-an-even-better-future","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","JqTlzWQok9kfDgriK24JB3JW9QoUjPbAuLaVnDKPUHg","mux_asset_id","wEme02hK3u00kIW8d02rluBZJKMFG01w008mK6xbIiuM4rmI","leader_id",61,"episode_id",208,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:50:01.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/2161/be-willing-to-let-go-of-the-past-for-an-even-better-future","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":37,"_102":103,"_104":105,"_106":107,"_26":108,"_109":110,"_63":111,"_60":111,"_112":113,"_70":114,"_40":115,"_116":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":-5,"_117":118,"_90":119,"_45":120,"_121":122,"_123":124,"_47":-5,"_125":126,"_127":128,"_94":129,"_52":-5},"episode",{"_13":39,"_15":53,"_28":54,"_17":55,"_56":57,"_19":58,"_21":59,"_60":61,"_62":-5,"_63":61,"_64":-5,"_65":66,"_67":68,"_69":-5,"_70":-5,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_75":-5,"_36":37,"_40":76,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":-5,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_87":88,"_89":-5,"_90":-5,"_47":-5,"_91":92,"_93":-5,"_94":-5,"_52":-5},"og_image_media","Build to Last","build-to-last","Learn how to focus on long-term success over short-term challenges, set your people up to make effective decisions, and build an organization that will last long after you leave.","summary","

Today's guest is Patrick Spence, the CEO of Sonos. So many tech companies that build consumer products are set up in a way where they make their products obsolete every time they launch a new product. The idea is that the minute the new device is available, their customers will abandon the old product and buy the newest model.

But what's interesting is that Sonos has a very different strategy. They set out to build their products to last. They want their customers to have their products for a long, long time. It's a unique approach in their industry. But there's something about it, that core principle that ties in well with the mark of a great leader.

You see, the great leaders, I know, they build the last, they make decisions to keep the brand strong beyond just the present moment. They develop leaders in their organization. So there's always a pipeline of strong talent when new opportunities arise. They treat their customers with dignity and respect, which breeds long term brand loyalty.

I could go on and on and what you're about to hear from Patrick Spence, and how he leads Sonos as their CEO, is that he's leading with this build the last approach in all aspects of the business. I can't wait for you to listen in.

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","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.030\nWelcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:07.030 --> 00:00:07.800\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:07.800 --> 00:00:10.000\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:13.720\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:14.300\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.300 --> 00:00:18.280\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:20.680\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:20.680 --> 00:00:25.360\nToday's guest is Patrick Spence, the CEO of Sonos.\n\n9\n00:00:25.360 --> 00:00:30.400\nSo many tech companies that build consumer products are set up in a way where\n\n10\n00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:31.080\nthey make\n\n11\n00:00:31.080 --> 00:00:35.720\ntheir products obsolete every time they launch a new product.\n\n12\n00:00:35.720 --> 00:00:39.800\nThe idea is that the minute the new device is available, their customers will\n\n13\n00:00:39.800 --> 00:00:40.320\nabandon\n\n14\n00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:43.040\nthe old product and buy the newest model.\n\n15\n00:00:43.040 --> 00:00:47.400\nBut what's interesting is that Sonos has a very different strategy.\n\n16\n00:00:47.400 --> 00:00:50.960\nThey set out to build their products to last.\n\n17\n00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:56.000\nThey want their customers to have their products for a long, long time.\n\n18\n00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.550\nIt's a unique approach in their industry, but there's something about it, that\n\n19\n00:01:00.550 --> 00:01:00.920\ncore\n\n20\n00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:05.400\nprinciple that ties in well with the mark of a great leader.\n\n21\n00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:10.320\nYou see, the great leaders I know, they build the last.\n\n22\n00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:15.000\nThey make decisions to keep the brand strong beyond just the present moment.\n\n23\n00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.050\nThey develop leaders in their organization so there's always a pipeline of\n\n24\n00:01:19.050 --> 00:01:19.880\nstrong talent\n\n25\n00:01:19.880 --> 00:01:22.200\nwhen new opportunities arise.\n\n26\n00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:26.670\nThey treat their customers with dignity and respect, which breeds long-term\n\n27\n00:01:26.670 --> 00:01:28.040\nbrand loyalty.\n\n28\n00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:30.320\nI could go on and on.\n\n29\n00:01:30.320 --> 00:01:36.050\nAnd what you're about to hear from Patrick Spence and how he leads Sonos as\n\n30\n00:01:36.050 --> 00:01:36.880\ntheir CEO\n\n31\n00:01:36.880 --> 00:01:41.500\nis that he's leading with this build the last approach in all aspects of the\n\n32\n00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:42.400\nbusiness.\n\n33\n00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:44.880\nI can't wait for you to listen in.\n\n34\n00:01:44.880 --> 00:01:55.680\nHere's my conversation with my friend and soon to be yours, Patrick Spence.\n\n35\n00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:57.640\nPatrick it's great to have you on the show.\n\n36\n00:01:57.640 --> 00:01:58.640\nIt's great to be on David.\n\n37\n00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:00.160\nI'm looking forward to the conversation.\n\n38\n00:02:00.160 --> 00:02:01.920\nYou know, I got to start out by congratulating.\n\n39\n00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:02.920\nI looked at your numbers.\n\n40\n00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:04.760\nYou just came off a great first quarter.\n\n41\n00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:06.640\nYour business is on a roll.\n\n42\n00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.000\n2022 was record revenues, record bargains.\n\n43\n00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:11.920\nYou know, I can't wait to learn how you're doing it.\n\n44\n00:02:11.920 --> 00:02:16.160\nBut first, I'd like to hear you give us your snapshot of Sonos.\n\n45\n00:02:16.160 --> 00:02:17.760\nHow do you define the business?\n\n46\n00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:21.520\nYeah, our ambition is to be the world's leading sound experience company.\n\n47\n00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:26.400\nAnd so that means creating amazing products and services that bring amazing\n\n48\n00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:27.160\nsound into\n\n49\n00:02:27.160 --> 00:02:28.160\nthe home.\n\n50\n00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:30.720\nAnd now we've started to go beyond the home as well.\n\n51\n00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:34.810\nSo really what we're trying to do is make sure that anywhere in your life that\n\n52\n00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:35.240\nyou're\n\n53\n00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.610\nenjoying sound, and that's a lot of places now with it being what I call in the\n\n54\n00:02:38.610 --> 00:02:39.080\nGolden\n\n55\n00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:41.320\nAge of Audio that we're there for you.\n\n56\n00:02:41.320 --> 00:02:45.560\nAnd we're providing that sound and doing it in an easy way, in a high quality\n\n57\n00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:46.120\nway, and\n\n58\n00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:48.200\na way that brings joy to everyone's life.\n\n59\n00:02:48.200 --> 00:02:49.880\nSpeaking of sound, you got a great voice.\n\n60\n00:02:49.880 --> 00:02:53.520\nI mean, were you really interested in sound and music and all that?\n\n61\n00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.800\nDid that kind of get you really psyched up about going into Sonos?\n\n62\n00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:57.800\nAbsolutely.\n\n63\n00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:01.160\nYou know, I think music really acts as a soundtrack for our life.\n\n64\n00:03:01.160 --> 00:03:04.920\nSo you know, as you hear certain songs, they trigger certain memories.\n\n65\n00:03:04.920 --> 00:03:07.640\nAnd so music is such an important thing to me.\n\n66\n00:03:07.640 --> 00:03:12.570\nBut I will tell you a funny story on the voice side is when I was in business\n\n67\n00:03:12.570 --> 00:03:13.320\nschool, we\n\n68\n00:03:13.320 --> 00:03:18.480\ntook presentation, you know, lessons and courses we had an outside presenter.\n\n69\n00:03:18.480 --> 00:03:22.980\nAnd when I got up there and presented at the end of it, she was like, wow, she\n\n70\n00:03:22.980 --> 00:03:23.560\nsaid, you\n\n71\n00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.520\nmust really love your father.\n\n72\n00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:27.520\nAnd I was like, what?\n\n73\n00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:32.140\nAnd she said, the people that have great voices and confident voices and those\n\n74\n00:03:32.140 --> 00:03:32.720\nguys,\n\n75\n00:03:32.720 --> 00:03:37.390\nthe men that do, it's a result of loving their fathers and having amazing\n\n76\n00:03:37.390 --> 00:03:38.280\nfathers.\n\n77\n00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:39.280\nAnd I'd never heard that before.\n\n78\n00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:40.840\nAnd I thought it was the coolest thing ever.\n\n79\n00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.320\nAnd I do love my dad and I look up to him as a hero.\n\n80\n00:03:43.320 --> 00:03:45.920\nAnd I thought that was super cool.\n\n81\n00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:46.920\nThat is cool.\n\n82\n00:03:46.920 --> 00:03:47.920\nI love it.\n\n83\n00:03:47.920 --> 00:03:49.720\nAnd I love how you're really transforming your business.\n\n84\n00:03:49.720 --> 00:03:52.920\nAnd you know, you have great legacy products, but you're constantly innovating.\n\n85\n00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:56.560\nAnd by the way, one of your great new products is the Rome.\n\n86\n00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.480\nMy family absolutely loves it.\n\n87\n00:03:59.480 --> 00:04:03.040\nIt's a portable speaker for all of you out there that you can take wherever you\n\n88\n00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:03.240\nwant\n\n89\n00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:04.240\nit to go.\n\n90\n00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.000\nIt's such a great idea.\n\n91\n00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.600\nTell me the story behind Rome and how you developed it.\n\n92\n00:04:10.600 --> 00:04:14.470\nYou know, what we're thinking about the products and what we're doing, it\n\n93\n00:04:14.470 --> 00:04:15.400\nreally like you\n\n94\n00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.120\nhit an innovation is the key and the core really to any business, right?\n\n95\n00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:20.920\nIn this day and age.\n\n96\n00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:25.480\nAnd when I became CEO, I actually laid out an ambition for us to be introducing\n\n97\n00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:26.040\nat least\n\n98\n00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:28.680\ntwo new products every year.\n\n99\n00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:32.190\nAnd that was a huge change from where we were because we had been shipping one\n\n100\n00:04:32.190 --> 00:04:32.880\nproduct every\n\n101\n00:04:32.880 --> 00:04:37.010\nfew years and we would, you know, sometimes get caught up in making the perfect\n\n102\n00:04:37.010 --> 00:04:37.440\nproduct\n\n103\n00:04:37.440 --> 00:04:40.280\nat times and we still toil over all the details.\n\n104\n00:04:40.280 --> 00:04:43.310\nBut we almost were doing a disservice to ourselves and to the world by not\n\n105\n00:04:43.310 --> 00:04:43.800\nactually\n\n106\n00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:45.240\nshipping something.\n\n107\n00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.850\nAnd so I really put this stake in the ground that we were going to unleash our\n\n108\n00:04:49.850 --> 00:04:50.960\ntalent and\n\n109\n00:04:50.960 --> 00:04:53.520\nmake sure that we're introducing at least two new products every year.\n\n110\n00:04:53.520 --> 00:04:57.240\nWell, as you can imagine, the other thing I did was say, we're going to go\n\n111\n00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:57.880\nbeyond the\n\n112\n00:04:57.880 --> 00:04:58.880\nhome.\n\n113\n00:04:58.880 --> 00:05:02.380\nAnd so that really started us down the road of both the move, which is a large\n\n114\n00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:02.920\nportable\n\n115\n00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:06.390\nproduct that we have in the room that you talked about, our ultra portable\n\n116\n00:05:06.390 --> 00:05:07.160\nproduct and\n\n117\n00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:11.360\ngetting into this idea of leaving the house, right?\n\n118\n00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.000\nAnd being able to bring Sonos with you in other parts of your day and of your\n\n119\n00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:15.320\nlife.\n\n120\n00:05:15.320 --> 00:05:19.550\nAnd so that meant bringing on some new expertise, expertise in Bluetooth,\n\n121\n00:05:19.550 --> 00:05:20.840\nexpertise in battery\n\n122\n00:05:20.840 --> 00:05:21.840\nlife.\n\n123\n00:05:21.840 --> 00:05:23.560\nAnd so we had to go higher and add those teams.\n\n124\n00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:25.800\nWe had to learn how to do things simultaneously.\n\n125\n00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:27.360\nSo we used to just work on one product.\n\n126\n00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:31.320\nWe started to work on simultaneous products, really spur the innovation.\n\n127\n00:05:31.320 --> 00:05:34.740\nAnd so one of the other things that was important at that time was trying to\n\n128\n00:05:34.740 --> 00:05:35.480\ninstill a bias\n\n129\n00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:39.610\nto action inside the organization and saying, no, we can do this and inspire\n\n130\n00:05:39.610 --> 00:05:40.280\nthe team to\n\n131\n00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:42.040\nreally take this action.\n\n132\n00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.510\nAnd it meant working closely with the engineering leadership to say, how are we\n\n133\n00:05:45.510 --> 00:05:46.080\ngoing to do\n\n134\n00:05:46.080 --> 00:05:47.080\nthis?\n\n135\n00:05:47.080 --> 00:05:48.080\nRight?\n\n136\n00:05:48.080 --> 00:05:50.030\nIt's not good enough to simply say, you know, we are going to do this and then\n\n137\n00:05:50.030 --> 00:05:50.560\ndisappear.\n\n138\n00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.550\nIt meant trying to make sure that we're prioritizing, understanding where\n\n139\n00:05:53.550 --> 00:05:54.960\nproducts would fit.\n\n140\n00:05:54.960 --> 00:05:59.650\nAnd we actually, in the midst of the pandemic, we actually changed our roadmap\n\n141\n00:05:59.650 --> 00:06:00.600\na little bit.\n\n142\n00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.740\nAnd we prioritized Rome because, you know, we at that point had felt like Rome\n\n143\n00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:05.160\nwould\n\n144\n00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.830\nbe the perfect product to accompany the reopening of the economy and people\n\n145\n00:06:09.830 --> 00:06:10.800\nstarting to leave\n\n146\n00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:11.800\nthe home and those kinds of things.\n\n147\n00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:15.460\nAnd we got it a little early in hindsight in terms of where it was, but we\n\n148\n00:06:15.460 --> 00:06:16.280\nactually moved\n\n149\n00:06:16.280 --> 00:06:19.610\nRome ahead of another product because we felt like it would be the right\n\n150\n00:06:19.610 --> 00:06:20.240\nproduct at the\n\n151\n00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:21.240\nright time.\n\n152\n00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:25.460\nAlways the conversations we're going through internally is what's the right\n\n153\n00:06:25.460 --> 00:06:26.240\nnext product\n\n154\n00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:28.120\nas we think about what we want to build.\n\n155\n00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.960\nWe look at the whole audio landscape and we look at people's lives and try to\n\n156\n00:06:31.960 --> 00:06:32.680\nunderstand\n\n157\n00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:36.240\nwhere are we not yet solving customer problems that we need to.\n\n158\n00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:41.140\nAnd with Rome, we knew that people wanted to take a Sonos product on the go and\n\n159\n00:06:41.140 --> 00:06:41.480\nbe able\n\n160\n00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.080\nto carry that through on their backpack or their purse.\n\n161\n00:06:44.080 --> 00:06:46.160\nAnd we said, okay, we were going to go solve that problem.\n\n162\n00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.680\nWe'll do it in a Sonos way so that it's a great speaker when you're at home.\n\n163\n00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:51.870\nAnd it's a great speaker when you're on the road and that's what we were able\n\n164\n00:06:51.870 --> 00:06:52.320\nto achieve\n\n165\n00:06:52.320 --> 00:06:53.320\nwith Rome.\n\n166\n00:06:53.320 --> 00:06:55.000\nYou certainly did that and that's great.\n\n167\n00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:58.120\nIt's nice to be able to say which products coming next.\n\n168\n00:06:58.120 --> 00:06:59.680\nThat's a good position to be in.\n\n169\n00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:04.500\nAnd I understand you basically are in about 15% of households and your\n\n170\n00:07:04.500 --> 00:07:05.880\ncustomers on average\n\n171\n00:07:05.880 --> 00:07:10.880\nhave three of your products in the home and your goal is to go to four to six.\n\n172\n00:07:10.880 --> 00:07:11.880\nNow that's a big goal.\n\n173\n00:07:11.880 --> 00:07:14.980\nAnd you've already talked about how you sort of changed the thinking of the\n\n174\n00:07:14.980 --> 00:07:15.520\ncompany in\n\n175\n00:07:15.520 --> 00:07:20.690\nterms of two products a year, how do you get the people that you lead to buy\n\n176\n00:07:20.690 --> 00:07:21.320\ninto that\n\n177\n00:07:21.320 --> 00:07:23.840\ngoal and own it for themselves?\n\n178\n00:07:23.840 --> 00:07:27.390\nI think it comes down to being very selective on who we bring into the\n\n179\n00:07:27.390 --> 00:07:28.440\norganization.\n\n180\n00:07:28.440 --> 00:07:30.440\nAnd when they come in, there's a couple of things.\n\n181\n00:07:30.440 --> 00:07:33.770\nOne is making sure they're aligned to the mission and they're excited about the\n\n182\n00:07:33.770 --> 00:07:34.240\nmission,\n\n183\n00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:35.240\nright?\n\n184\n00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:36.240\nAnd want to go do this.\n\n185\n00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.590\nAnd so we're in actually about 10% of the homes that we think we ultimately\n\n186\n00:07:39.590 --> 00:07:40.120\ncould be\n\n187\n00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:41.120\nin.\n\n188\n00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.320\nWe'll do about $2 billion in revenue this year.\n\n189\n00:07:43.320 --> 00:07:46.720\nThere's $89 billion that is sold every year in audio products.\n\n190\n00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.670\nSo we have a huge opportunity in front of us and aligning with somebody that's\n\n191\n00:07:50.670 --> 00:07:51.120\ncoming\n\n192\n00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.330\ninto the organization that they see that opportunity and they want to be part\n\n193\n00:07:54.330 --> 00:07:54.640\nof that\n\n194\n00:07:54.640 --> 00:07:59.330\nstory and their experience lends itself to actually being able to contribute to\n\n195\n00:07:59.330 --> 00:07:59.840\ndriving\n\n196\n00:07:59.840 --> 00:08:02.370\ngrowth, thinking about new channels, thinking about new countries, thinking\n\n197\n00:08:02.370 --> 00:08:03.640\nabout new products\n\n198\n00:08:03.640 --> 00:08:05.480\nis critical.\n\n199\n00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:08.710\nAnd then the other part of that conversation we're bringing them in is as well\n\n200\n00:08:08.710 --> 00:08:09.320\nthe culture\n\n201\n00:08:09.320 --> 00:08:10.720\nwe're trying to build.\n\n202\n00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:14.400\nAnd I want to make sure that we are building a company that is adaptable,\n\n203\n00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:15.160\nenduring and\n\n204\n00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:16.160\nadmired.\n\n205\n00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:18.280\nThose are the things that we talk about internally.\n\n206\n00:08:18.280 --> 00:08:21.990\nAnd so I've found that it's very important that upfront we're having\n\n207\n00:08:21.990 --> 00:08:23.280\nconversations about\n\n208\n00:08:23.280 --> 00:08:27.000\nthat and making sure that people are aligned to that before they come in the\n\n209\n00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:27.520\ndoor.\n\n210\n00:08:27.520 --> 00:08:31.560\nAnd then when they're here, we are incredibly transparent.\n\n211\n00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:35.660\nSo even though we're a public company, we share our roadmap and all of our\n\n212\n00:08:35.660 --> 00:08:36.400\nplans with\n\n213\n00:08:36.400 --> 00:08:37.840\neverybody across the company.\n\n214\n00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.240\nAnd we do that because the reason people are here is because they are\n\n215\n00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:42.240\npassionate about\n\n216\n00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:43.960\nand get excited about our products.\n\n217\n00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:45.320\nAnd we want to make sure they can see that.\n\n218\n00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:46.320\nThey see the future.\n\n219\n00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:47.480\nThey see what's coming.\n\n220\n00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:49.000\nThey get excited about it.\n\n221\n00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.780\nAnd once you have that, it's not too hard to get people rallied to go and bring\n\n222\n00:08:53.780 --> 00:08:54.280\nthese\n\n223\n00:08:54.280 --> 00:08:55.400\nproducts to market.\n\n224\n00:08:55.400 --> 00:08:59.810\nAnd everybody inside the company is just really proud to work here because\n\n225\n00:08:59.810 --> 00:09:00.920\nanybody they bump\n\n226\n00:09:00.920 --> 00:09:04.510\ninto that they tell work, they work at Sonos, they'll say, \"Sonos, I have Sonos\n\n227\n00:09:04.510 --> 00:09:05.160\n, I love\n\n228\n00:09:05.160 --> 00:09:06.160\nit.\"\n\n229\n00:09:06.160 --> 00:09:08.120\nAnd so that's something that's pretty special in this day and age.\n\n230\n00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:11.330\nThere's not a lot of companies out there that you can say that necessarily, you\n\n231\n00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:11.560\nknow,\n\n232\n00:09:11.560 --> 00:09:15.390\nyour parents or your friends or family members will actually know what it is\n\n233\n00:09:15.390 --> 00:09:16.360\nthat you build,\n\n234\n00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.080\nright, the products that you're making.\n\n235\n00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:21.820\nAnd so it's kind of like a combination of all of those things that come\n\n236\n00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:22.560\ntogether to\n\n237\n00:09:22.560 --> 00:09:24.760\ncreate the amazing culture that we have here.\n\n238\n00:09:24.760 --> 00:09:30.040\nYou know, we recently had the CEO of Adobe, Sean Noreyan, he was on.\n\n239\n00:09:30.040 --> 00:09:33.480\nAnd I think anybody would say Adobe is a very innovative company.\n\n240\n00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.680\nAnd he hates the word failure.\n\n241\n00:09:35.680 --> 00:09:37.400\nHow do you look at failure?\n\n242\n00:09:37.400 --> 00:09:38.440\nTwo things shape my life.\n\n243\n00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:40.800\nOne is technology and the other is sports.\n\n244\n00:09:40.800 --> 00:09:44.470\nAnd so certainly, you know, losing is not something that, you know, I really\n\n245\n00:09:44.470 --> 00:09:45.200\ntake to.\n\n246\n00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.320\nI hate it, in fact.\n\n247\n00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:52.400\nBut at the same time, it depends when you think about failure in the sense of,\n\n248\n00:09:52.400 --> 00:09:53.200\nyou know, maybe\n\n249\n00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:57.480\nif it's not permanent, it's a moment for potential learning and understanding.\n\n250\n00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:01.590\nAnd so I do think that there are things you can learn and there are risks that\n\n251\n00:10:01.590 --> 00:10:02.120\nyou need\n\n252\n00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:06.080\nto take, right, in order to try and stretch yourself.\n\n253\n00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.640\nAnd it might lead to failure in a particular area.\n\n254\n00:10:08.640 --> 00:10:11.880\nI think it's our job as CEOs to make sure that we're not putting the\n\n255\n00:10:11.880 --> 00:10:12.840\norganization as\n\n256\n00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.480\na whole in a position where it might fail.\n\n257\n00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:19.420\nYou know, you want to be creating areas for the company and the people that\n\n258\n00:10:19.420 --> 00:10:20.040\ntake risks\n\n259\n00:10:20.040 --> 00:10:22.000\nand potentially fail.\n\n260\n00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:23.400\nBut if they fail, are you learning from it?\n\n261\n00:10:23.400 --> 00:10:25.240\nCould you continue to move forward as an organization?\n\n262\n00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:27.640\nI actually think that's critically important.\n\n263\n00:10:27.640 --> 00:10:30.720\nAnd I think fear of failure can actually hold you back sometimes.\n\n264\n00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:36.490\nSo I think calculated risk taking is important to making sure that you're\n\n265\n00:10:36.490 --> 00:10:37.760\nreally pushing\n\n266\n00:10:37.760 --> 00:10:40.600\nwhat you're capable of and innovating, quite frankly.\n\n267\n00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:42.960\nYeah, I think you and Shatnu are aligned on it.\n\n268\n00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.960\nHe just thinks that failure is something you have to embrace because it comes\n\n269\n00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:46.360\nwith the\n\n270\n00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:48.560\nterritory of being an innovative company.\n\n271\n00:10:48.560 --> 00:10:52.490\nYou know, you know, I've found one of the ways that frees up people as a leader\n\n272\n00:10:52.490 --> 00:10:52.840\nin an\n\n273\n00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:57.300\ninnovative culture like what you have is to talk about the risks that you've\n\n274\n00:10:57.300 --> 00:10:58.120\npersonally\n\n275\n00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.680\ntaken that didn't work out.\n\n276\n00:11:00.680 --> 00:11:03.890\nCan you share one of your risks that and you're, you know, I don't know if we\n\n277\n00:11:03.890 --> 00:11:04.280\nwant to call\n\n278\n00:11:04.280 --> 00:11:07.120\nit a failure or not, but you know, a time where it just didn't work out the way\n\n279\n00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:07.360\nyou\n\n280\n00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:08.920\nthought it should or would.\n\n281\n00:11:08.920 --> 00:11:10.080\nWell, I'll tell you.\n\n282\n00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.160\nSo really I've worked at two companies.\n\n283\n00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:17.100\nI've been fortunate to be part of two incredible, you know, technology stories,\n\n284\n00:11:17.100 --> 00:11:17.880\none blackberry\n\n285\n00:11:17.880 --> 00:11:19.560\nand the second sodos.\n\n286\n00:11:19.560 --> 00:11:24.220\nAnd when I was at blackberry, we had a really important moment when we needed\n\n287\n00:11:24.220 --> 00:11:24.920\nto pivot the\n\n288\n00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:29.120\norganization, in my opinion, to something called Blackberry Messenger.\n\n289\n00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:34.300\nIt was an opportunity at that point to grow something that was leading the\n\n290\n00:11:34.300 --> 00:11:35.040\nworld.\n\n291\n00:11:35.040 --> 00:11:38.080\nWe had 80 million daily active users in Blackberry Messenger.\n\n292\n00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:42.070\nAt this time, the only other messaging solution was WhatsApp at 5 million daily\n\n293\n00:11:42.070 --> 00:11:43.800\nactive users.\n\n294\n00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:48.080\nAnd we had the opportunity to take Blackberry Messenger and run it on iOS,\n\n295\n00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:49.000\nAndroid, desk\n\n296\n00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.010\nstops and make it the standard in the industry and probably take that 80\n\n297\n00:11:52.010 --> 00:11:52.800\nmillion and grow\n\n298\n00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:57.180\nit into hundreds of millions of people using a messaging service that people\n\n299\n00:11:57.180 --> 00:11:57.720\nlove.\n\n300\n00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:02.240\nAt least 80 million were using on a daily active basis and absolutely loved.\n\n301\n00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:09.030\nAnd I was unable to convince the organization that that was the right decision\n\n302\n00:12:09.030 --> 00:12:09.960\nand pivot\n\n303\n00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:14.170\nto make and give up some of the hardware that was associated with Blackberry\n\n304\n00:12:14.170 --> 00:12:14.800\nbecause at\n\n305\n00:12:14.800 --> 00:12:18.280\nthis point, if you wanted to be on Blackberry Messenger, you had to get a Black\n\n306\n00:12:18.280 --> 00:12:19.240\nberry phone.\n\n307\n00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:23.120\nBut at that point as well, Blackberry phones were falling behind.\n\n308\n00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:28.450\nAnd in my opinion, at that point, we'd already begun to lose the race against\n\n309\n00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:29.880\niOS and Android.\n\n310\n00:12:29.880 --> 00:12:34.020\nAnd so we really needed to make this shift in order for us to continue and move\n\n311\n00:12:34.020 --> 00:12:34.760\nforward.\n\n312\n00:12:34.760 --> 00:12:39.090\nAnd it was classic innovators dilemma and not being able to give up the revenue\n\n313\n00:12:39.090 --> 00:12:39.560\nstream\n\n314\n00:12:39.560 --> 00:12:42.680\nand that business of what we built in the past, the hardware, to be able to\n\n315\n00:12:42.680 --> 00:12:43.160\nmake that\n\n316\n00:12:43.160 --> 00:12:48.280\nshift into the services and across platform messaging service.\n\n317\n00:12:48.280 --> 00:12:51.880\nAnd I think if we were able to do that, we would have been able to navigate the\n\n318\n00:12:51.880 --> 00:12:52.280\nfuture\n\n319\n00:12:52.280 --> 00:12:53.840\nin a much different way.\n\n320\n00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:56.200\nI think Blackberry would still be around more relevant.\n\n321\n00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.100\nIt wouldn't be known for phones, but it might be known as the standard\n\n322\n00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:00.040\nmessaging platform\n\n323\n00:13:00.040 --> 00:13:01.200\nthat's out there.\n\n324\n00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:05.400\nAnd so I do look back, particularly given I grew up inside the company and I'm\n\n325\n00:13:05.400 --> 00:13:05.880\na proud\n\n326\n00:13:05.880 --> 00:13:12.040\nCanadian and it's a Canadian company, as the inability for me to convince the\n\n327\n00:13:12.040 --> 00:13:13.240\nright people\n\n328\n00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:20.400\nat Blackberry to make that shift is probably the biggest failure of my career.\n\n329\n00:13:20.400 --> 00:13:23.040\nWhen you think about that, what would you have done differently looking back\n\n330\n00:13:23.040 --> 00:13:23.400\nand having\n\n331\n00:13:23.400 --> 00:13:26.800\na little bit more wisdom as you think about leadership?\n\n332\n00:13:26.800 --> 00:13:29.600\nProbably taking it as far as the board.\n\n333\n00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:31.200\nAnd I didn't do that at that point.\n\n334\n00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.700\nI think I could have been even more vigilant in pitching this and laying out my\n\n335\n00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:36.200\nvision\n\n336\n00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:42.080\nfor where the future was and wasn't and really pushing harder than I did.\n\n337\n00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.160\nI think I could have taken it to another level.\n\n338\n00:13:45.160 --> 00:13:50.160\nSo as a result of that, I make sure that each person on my leadership team has\n\n339\n00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:51.240\na relationship\n\n340\n00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.760\nwith at least one of our board members and they have a trusted relationship\n\n341\n00:13:54.760 --> 00:13:55.280\nover time\n\n342\n00:13:55.280 --> 00:14:01.020\nbecause maybe there will come a time that somebody on my team needs to, I'm not\n\n343\n00:14:01.020 --> 00:14:02.280\nlistening,\n\n344\n00:14:02.280 --> 00:14:08.170\nand maybe I can't see what they can see and they need to talk to the board and\n\n345\n00:14:08.170 --> 00:14:08.880\nthey need\n\n346\n00:14:08.880 --> 00:14:12.800\nto potentially do something game-changing that I'm not going to see.\n\n347\n00:14:12.800 --> 00:14:19.960\nSo I try as a learning from that to create a situation and governance where the\n\n348\n00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:20.280\nright\n\n349\n00:14:20.280 --> 00:14:25.120\nthings will happen no matter who is in the CEO seat.\n\n350\n00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:26.800\nYou've got to be really secure to do that.\n\n351\n00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:30.650\nHave you always been that secure in yourself where you'd say, \"Hey, I want you\n\n352\n00:14:30.650 --> 00:14:31.080\nto know\n\n353\n00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.080\nmy board members.\"\n\n354\n00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:35.380\nYou know, most CEOs like to control that board like they've got it under\n\n355\n00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:36.320\nabsolute lock and\n\n356\n00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:37.320\nkey.\n\n357\n00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:40.360\nNo, I have definitely not been that secure all the way along.\n\n358\n00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:44.430\nAnd I think when I was first starting out as a leader, I was trying to emulate\n\n359\n00:14:44.430 --> 00:14:44.960\ntoo many\n\n360\n00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.200\nother people, right?\n\n361\n00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:50.990\nWhere you read all these books about business legends and you're watching the\n\n362\n00:14:50.990 --> 00:14:51.760\nfounders and\n\n363\n00:14:51.760 --> 00:14:57.400\nthe CEOs at Blackberry and you are taking your cues from those individuals.\n\n364\n00:14:57.400 --> 00:15:02.360\nAnd so I do think over my career now, and a big part of this, I would say, is\n\n365\n00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:03.200\nthe founder\n\n366\n00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:08.180\nof Sonos, who is the one that handed the reins to me, John McFarland, just in\n\n367\n00:15:08.180 --> 00:15:09.040\nleading from\n\n368\n00:15:09.040 --> 00:15:11.160\na more authentic place of who I am.\n\n369\n00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:14.550\nAnd look, this is why I go back to sports is because I grew up playing a lot of\n\n370\n00:15:14.550 --> 00:15:14.880\nteam\n\n371\n00:15:14.880 --> 00:15:18.590\nsports and ending up in a position where I was leading a lot of those teams and\n\n372\n00:15:18.590 --> 00:15:18.800\na lot\n\n373\n00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:22.640\nof underdog teams, quite frankly, and having a lot of success.\n\n374\n00:15:22.640 --> 00:15:26.280\nAnd it's those lessons and how to rally people and bring people together.\n\n375\n00:15:26.280 --> 00:15:30.490\nAnd that's kind of my superpower is bringing a group of people together and\n\n376\n00:15:30.490 --> 00:15:31.680\nachieving something\n\n377\n00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:34.760\nthat no one thought possible, maybe even those people.\n\n378\n00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:40.790\nAnd so for me, I think I've really come into my own authentic leadership at Son\n\n379\n00:15:40.790 --> 00:15:41.360\nos.\n\n380\n00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:46.050\nThanks to John and the team that has predated me and then as well our board,\n\n381\n00:15:46.050 --> 00:15:47.120\nquite frankly,\n\n382\n00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:51.080\nDavid, we have an incredible and very supportive board.\n\n383\n00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:57.790\nAnd I think they enable me to create a situation and a culture that really is\n\n384\n00:15:57.790 --> 00:16:00.000\nopen, is transparent.\n\n385\n00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.170\nAnd I'm really trying to lead in an authentic way and try to do the best thing\n\n386\n00:16:04.170 --> 00:16:05.040\nfor Sonos.\n\n387\n00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:10.200\nAnd I think it's been a long journey to get there, but that is where I am today\n\n388\n00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:10.560\n.\n\n389\n00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:14.120\nAnd I just think that it's good for the people on my team.\n\n390\n00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.100\nIt's good for the board to have those connections and we're a better company as\n\n391\n00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:17.600\na result of\n\n392\n00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:18.600\nit.\n\n393\n00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.760\nYou mentioned you're a Canadian and you talked about your love for sports\n\n394\n00:16:21.760 --> 00:16:23.360\ncoming up as a kid.\n\n395\n00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.460\nCan you tell us a story from your childhood that really shaped the kind of\n\n396\n00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:28.200\nleader that\n\n397\n00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:29.200\nyou are today?\n\n398\n00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:30.960\nYou know, a specific example.\n\n399\n00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:32.600\nYou'll just always remember.\n\n400\n00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:33.600\nYeah.\n\n401\n00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.400\nSo in high school, I switched high schools and I was big in a basketball.\n\n402\n00:16:38.400 --> 00:16:41.870\nSo even though I'm Canadian, I'm not the traditional Canadian that just played\n\n403\n00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:42.440\nhockey.\n\n404\n00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.080\nI'm a played a little hockey when I was young, but I focused on basketball and\n\n405\n00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:45.600\nvolleyball\n\n406\n00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:46.600\nin fact.\n\n407\n00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:51.270\nAnd so in high school, I met a coach, John Thrasher, who was absolutely\n\n408\n00:16:51.270 --> 00:16:52.780\nincredible leader, super\n\n409\n00:16:52.780 --> 00:16:53.940\ntough coach.\n\n410\n00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:55.560\nAnd he talked about us being a band.\n\n411\n00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:59.800\nWe have different roles and, you know, I think he said, I play the tuba that we\n\n412\n00:16:59.800 --> 00:17:00.320\nhad somebody\n\n413\n00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.400\nelse that was a better shooter that was the lead singer and going through that.\n\n414\n00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:06.470\nAnd I'd never really thought about the team in that way, but together, right,\n\n415\n00:17:06.470 --> 00:17:06.880\nwe would\n\n416\n00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.320\nmake beautiful music and go through it.\n\n417\n00:17:09.320 --> 00:17:12.200\nAnd we were a team that was not very big.\n\n418\n00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.640\nI was our center and I'm six foot four.\n\n419\n00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:19.480\nAnd so we weren't the most athletic team, but we really acted as a team.\n\n420\n00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:23.330\nI'm still great friends with, you know, five or six players from that team, all\n\n421\n00:17:23.330 --> 00:17:24.440\nthe starters.\n\n422\n00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:28.290\nAnd so we were able to come together through, you know, some great coaching and\n\n423\n00:17:28.290 --> 00:17:29.240\nmotivation,\n\n424\n00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.240\nbut also like that teamwork and friendship to win what in the United States, I\n\n425\n00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:33.760\nguess,\n\n426\n00:17:33.760 --> 00:17:37.420\nwould be considered our regional and upset a couple of teams that were much\n\n427\n00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:38.200\nmore talented\n\n428\n00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:42.430\nthan we were and go to, you know, our provincial finals, which was huge for us\n\n429\n00:17:42.430 --> 00:17:43.280\nin our year.\n\n430\n00:17:43.280 --> 00:17:47.970\nAnd I really look back on that as a pivotal moment in understanding the power\n\n431\n00:17:47.970 --> 00:17:48.640\nof people\n\n432\n00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.480\nplaying their roles as quite good at defense and rebounding.\n\n433\n00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:52.480\nSo that's where I would focus.\n\n434\n00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:54.280\nAnd we had somebody that was really good at shooting.\n\n435\n00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:57.200\nWe had somebody that was really good at defending on the perimeter.\n\n436\n00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.410\nSo we'd defend the breast guard and everybody playing those roles so that we\n\n437\n00:18:01.410 --> 00:18:02.240\ncould win as\n\n438\n00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.320\na team and the power of that.\n\n439\n00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:06.760\nAnd we were all very different personalities as well.\n\n440\n00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:11.200\nSo it was such a fascinating life experience to go through that.\n\n441\n00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.440\nAnd it's been something that I think about a lot.\n\n442\n00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.160\nAnd I had a chance to coach later on as well when I was in university, coach\n\n443\n00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:17.960\nsome teams.\n\n444\n00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:19.480\nAnd I certainly have brought that to bear.\n\n445\n00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.520\nAnd I really think every day, a lot of what I put to work is from what I\n\n446\n00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:24.960\nlearned in sports.\n\n447\n00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:28.360\nYou know, you mentioned that you're a Canadian and I love Canada.\n\n448\n00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:31.400\nI love your country and I love the people in Canada.\n\n449\n00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:33.800\nYou're really known for being really nice guys.\n\n450\n00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:36.760\nDo you put yourself in that category?\n\n451\n00:18:36.760 --> 00:18:39.200\nI do.\n\n452\n00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.560\nI think most people that no beat would say that I'm a pretty nice person.\n\n453\n00:18:43.560 --> 00:18:49.520\nBut I also probably unlike many Canadians, I'm also very competitive.\n\n454\n00:18:49.520 --> 00:18:54.600\nSo I would say that I'm abnormally competitive for a Canadian.\n\n455\n00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:57.360\nAnd I think there were a number of us like that at Blackberry.\n\n456\n00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:01.440\nAnd it's why we were able to build the company into the one that it became.\n\n457\n00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:03.760\nAnd so yeah, I am pretty relentless.\n\n458\n00:19:03.760 --> 00:19:05.400\nI'm pretty competitive.\n\n459\n00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:07.640\nAnd those are not typical Canadian traits.\n\n460\n00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.000\nSo you're nice, but you're really, really competitive.\n\n461\n00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.900\nSo you're no Mr. Nice Guy, you know, tell us a story of where you really had to\n\n462\n00:19:15.900 --> 00:19:16.440\nengage\n\n463\n00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.280\nin some very significant productive conflict.\n\n464\n00:19:20.280 --> 00:19:22.520\nProbably the most conflicted would be.\n\n465\n00:19:22.520 --> 00:19:26.310\nSo at Sonos, we partner with, but we also compete with all of the biggest\n\n466\n00:19:26.310 --> 00:19:27.040\ntechnology\n\n467\n00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:29.160\ncompanies in the world.\n\n468\n00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:33.450\nAnd many of your listeners will probably know that at one point, it reached a\n\n469\n00:19:33.450 --> 00:19:34.080\npoint with\n\n470\n00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:38.650\none of those partners slash competitors, Google, where I had to make the\n\n471\n00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:39.480\ndecision to\n\n472\n00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:44.530\nactually sue them for patent infringement and also testify in front of Congress\n\n473\n00:19:44.530 --> 00:19:45.000\nin terms\n\n474\n00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:46.120\nof some of their behavior.\n\n475\n00:19:46.120 --> 00:19:52.060\nAnd so that being a innovative small technology company in the United States,\n\n476\n00:19:52.060 --> 00:19:53.080\ntaking on one\n\n477\n00:19:53.080 --> 00:19:58.140\nof the largest, most powerful companies in the world, that probably tells you a\n\n478\n00:19:58.140 --> 00:19:58.840\nlot about\n\n479\n00:19:58.840 --> 00:20:03.640\nwhat I'm willing to do to stand up for what I believe are the rights and the\n\n480\n00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:04.520\ninventions\n\n481\n00:20:04.520 --> 00:20:06.320\nof the little guy, quite frankly.\n\n482\n00:20:06.320 --> 00:20:12.490\nAnd so that is probably the most public and prominent example of me being\n\n483\n00:20:12.490 --> 00:20:13.800\nwilling to stand\n\n484\n00:20:13.800 --> 00:20:16.840\nup and embrace conflict at the end of the day.\n\n485\n00:20:16.840 --> 00:20:20.340\nWhen you got great products like you have big people like Google, they're going\n\n486\n00:20:20.340 --> 00:20:20.680\nto try\n\n487\n00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:21.680\nto rip you off.\n\n488\n00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:23.040\nI mean, there's no doubt about it.\n\n489\n00:20:23.040 --> 00:20:25.760\nAnd you had the courage to take on the big guy.\n\n490\n00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:29.160\nWhen you were going through that process as a leader, did you have any slee\n\n491\n00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:29.880\npless nights\n\n492\n00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:30.880\non that?\n\n493\n00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.510\nI mean, you ultimately win, but did you have any sleepless nights along the way\n\n494\n00:20:34.510 --> 00:20:34.840\nor did\n\n495\n00:20:34.840 --> 00:20:36.840\nyou just business as usual?\n\n496\n00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:39.080\nYou know, as a leader, many sleepless nights.\n\n497\n00:20:39.080 --> 00:20:41.040\nIt is the loneliest job in the world.\n\n498\n00:20:41.040 --> 00:20:45.040\nI have an incredible wife who's a social worker and an amazing support.\n\n499\n00:20:45.040 --> 00:20:49.580\nI'm an incredible board that are great and supportive and amazing sounding\n\n500\n00:20:49.580 --> 00:20:50.320\nboard in those\n\n501\n00:20:50.320 --> 00:20:51.760\nsituations.\n\n502\n00:20:51.760 --> 00:20:55.820\nBut there's many sleepless nights when you're dealing with decisions that\n\n503\n00:20:55.820 --> 00:20:56.800\nimpact people's\n\n504\n00:20:56.800 --> 00:21:01.520\nlivelihoods that take on big decisions that can distract an organization.\n\n505\n00:21:01.520 --> 00:21:04.950\nIn some cases, one of the things I'm most proud of is we didn't lose any of our\n\n506\n00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:05.560\ninnovation\n\n507\n00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:07.560\npace while we took on Google.\n\n508\n00:21:07.560 --> 00:21:10.880\nSo we continued to introduce at least two new products every year.\n\n509\n00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.600\nSo you want to keep the organization focused.\n\n510\n00:21:13.600 --> 00:21:16.920\nBut all of those things went into my mind, the money associated.\n\n511\n00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:19.760\nWe're not a hugely profitable organization.\n\n512\n00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:23.160\nAnd so the investment that it requires is that better spent somewhere else.\n\n513\n00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:28.510\nThere's a lot of those things that you think about late at night and you have\n\n514\n00:21:28.510 --> 00:21:29.960\nto process.\n\n515\n00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.720\nAnd then you have to process in the light of day, you do with yourself, you do\n\n516\n00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:34.240\nwith people\n\n517\n00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.260\nyou trust, and then you make a call and you stand behind it and you adapt as\n\n518\n00:21:38.260 --> 00:21:39.040\nnecessary,\n\n519\n00:21:39.040 --> 00:21:40.040\nright?\n\n520\n00:21:40.040 --> 00:21:42.990\nI think that's the other thing is there's some situations where you might have\n\n521\n00:21:42.990 --> 00:21:43.440\nto adjust,\n\n522\n00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:44.440\nright?\n\n523\n00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:46.840\nAnd from what you learn and from what you hear and what happens.\n\n524\n00:21:46.840 --> 00:21:50.920\nAnd so I think being open to that as well is pretty important as a leader.\n\n525\n00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.920\nBut as you know, many sleepless nights.\n\n526\n00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:58.250\nWhat role do you think that independent small mid-sized tech companies have in\n\n527\n00:21:58.250 --> 00:21:58.840\nAmerican\n\n528\n00:21:58.840 --> 00:21:59.840\ninnovation?\n\n529\n00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:02.520\nOh, this is why I've testified in front of Congress.\n\n530\n00:22:02.520 --> 00:22:06.450\nWhy I believe that it's harmful to society, that more and more power gets\n\n531\n00:22:06.450 --> 00:22:07.320\nconcentrated\n\n532\n00:22:07.320 --> 00:22:12.850\nin fewer, fewer hands is that I think society would be much better off with\n\n533\n00:22:12.850 --> 00:22:14.480\nmany more independent,\n\n534\n00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.160\nsmaller businesses employing a lot of Americans.\n\n535\n00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.240\nWe have half the number of public companies we did 20 years ago.\n\n536\n00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:25.730\nI mean, we could do with a lot more innovation, a lot of different perspectives\n\n537\n00:22:25.730 --> 00:22:26.880\n, more diversity\n\n538\n00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.720\nout there, stronger balance in the country.\n\n539\n00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.920\nSo we're not so coastily heavy, if you will.\n\n540\n00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:38.340\nIf we were able to create the conditions to have more and more small and medium\n\n541\n00:22:38.340 --> 00:22:38.840\nsized\n\n542\n00:22:38.840 --> 00:22:41.440\nbusinesses and really see them thrive.\n\n543\n00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.960\nAnd I worry about the future of innovation.\n\n544\n00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:50.190\nI worry about the ability for startups to really thrive in a world where there\n\n545\n00:22:50.190 --> 00:22:50.800\n's a few\n\n546\n00:22:50.800 --> 00:22:54.530\ncompanies that really dominate and acquire companies along the way to try and\n\n547\n00:22:54.530 --> 00:22:54.960\nreduce\n\n548\n00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:56.480\ncompetition and some of those things.\n\n549\n00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.240\nThat's why I've been trying to stand for innovation and competition.\n\n550\n00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:05.560\nAnd I just think David, we would be a much more vibrant country if we had a lot\n\n551\n00:23:05.560 --> 00:23:06.000\nmore\n\n552\n00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:07.800\nsmall and medium sized businesses.\n\n553\n00:23:07.800 --> 00:23:12.280\nWell, I really appreciate your passion and noble cause for that effort.\n\n554\n00:23:12.280 --> 00:23:15.920\nI think it takes a lot of guts to stand up for something like that and put your\n\n555\n00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:16.240\nneck\n\n556\n00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:17.240\nout there.\n\n557\n00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.800\nYou mentioned your wife earlier and I got to ask you this.\n\n558\n00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:22.760\nI want to find out if this is really true.\n\n559\n00:23:22.760 --> 00:23:27.410\nShe said she's fairly supportive and I know she must be because is it true that\n\n560\n00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:27.720\nafter\n\n561\n00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:34.210\nyou got married, you moved your wife to Australia basically one week after you\n\n562\n00:23:34.210 --> 00:23:35.280\ngot married.\n\n563\n00:23:35.280 --> 00:23:38.560\nHow in the world did you pull that off?\n\n564\n00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:41.960\nMy wife is probably more adventurous than me.\n\n565\n00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:44.840\nAnd thankfully, even more understanding that I have.\n\n566\n00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:47.280\nAnd so she saw it as an adventure.\n\n567\n00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:50.430\nHer best friend, thankfully, was actually living in Australia if you can\n\n568\n00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:51.040\nbelieve that\n\n569\n00:23:51.040 --> 00:23:52.120\nor not.\n\n570\n00:23:52.120 --> 00:23:56.290\nAnd she saw that I had a great career opportunity, which was to really open\n\n571\n00:23:56.290 --> 00:23:57.320\nAsia Pacific for\n\n572\n00:23:57.320 --> 00:23:58.840\nBlackberry as well.\n\n573\n00:23:58.840 --> 00:24:03.520\nAnd so we sat down, we had that conversation and she has just been incredible.\n\n574\n00:24:03.520 --> 00:24:07.120\nWe had our first child in Australia, like halfway around the world.\n\n575\n00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:08.880\nIt's just amazing to think about.\n\n576\n00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.520\nWe moved back to Canada after a couple of years in Australia.\n\n577\n00:24:12.520 --> 00:24:15.980\nAnd then an opportunity came up to go lead the Blackberry business in New York,\n\n578\n00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:16.400\nMiddle\n\n579\n00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:17.960\nEast, and London.\n\n580\n00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.600\nAnd there my wife was again saying, yeah, let's go.\n\n581\n00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:24.080\nLet's go have this adventure as a family.\n\n582\n00:24:24.080 --> 00:24:27.270\nAnd then when it was time, you know, and I was worried about joining Sonos and\n\n583\n00:24:27.270 --> 00:24:27.680\nleaving\n\n584\n00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.840\nBlackberry and we're living in London, then it was okay.\n\n585\n00:24:30.840 --> 00:24:35.040\nThere's this company that's just starting up in Santa Barbara, California.\n\n586\n00:24:35.040 --> 00:24:38.670\nAnd again, Aaron was there to say, if you think this is the right thing to do,\n\n587\n00:24:38.670 --> 00:24:39.080\nyou know,\n\n588\n00:24:39.080 --> 00:24:41.440\nfor our family, then we're up for the challenge.\n\n589\n00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:46.220\nAnd she has been so understanding and influential and such a strong partner,\n\n590\n00:24:46.220 --> 00:24:47.320\nyou know, in all\n\n591\n00:24:47.320 --> 00:24:49.760\nof this, I could not be more grateful.\n\n592\n00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:52.680\nShe really is just an amazing person.\n\n593\n00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.160\nAnd I would not be the leader I am today without her influence.\n\n594\n00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:58.360\nI feel the same way about my wife, Wendy.\n\n595\n00:24:58.360 --> 00:25:00.280\nAnd you're a true global executive.\n\n596\n00:25:00.280 --> 00:25:02.000\nI mean, you've traveled the world.\n\n597\n00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:06.180\nYou just mentioned Asia, specific, Middle East, North Africa, Europe, you know,\n\n598\n00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:06.240\ntell\n\n599\n00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:11.520\nus a story about an experience that taught you the most from your international\n\n600\n00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:12.160\ndays.\n\n601\n00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:16.590\nThe thing I've taken away, you know, having worked in probably 40, 50 countries\n\n602\n00:25:16.590 --> 00:25:17.400\nspecifically\n\n603\n00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:18.480\nat this point.\n\n604\n00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.670\nI will tell you the thing that surprised to be the most, being a Canadian who\n\n605\n00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:23.280\nhad never\n\n606\n00:25:23.280 --> 00:25:27.760\ntraveled outside Canada and the United States before I went and started to open\n\n607\n00:25:27.760 --> 00:25:28.320\nthe Asia\n\n608\n00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:33.620\nPacific region for a Blackberry was the fact that we're much more similar, you\n\n609\n00:25:33.620 --> 00:25:34.760\nknow, than\n\n610\n00:25:34.760 --> 00:25:37.120\ndifferent to anybody in any country.\n\n611\n00:25:37.120 --> 00:25:40.870\nWhat I found, David, is most people, when it comes down to it, you know, are\n\n612\n00:25:40.870 --> 00:25:42.440\ntrying to\n\n613\n00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.240\nbuild a great life with their family.\n\n614\n00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:48.650\nAnd I got to meet a lot of amazing people and their families and build a career\n\n615\n00:25:48.650 --> 00:25:49.280\n, right?\n\n616\n00:25:49.280 --> 00:25:51.720\nYou know, and do a good job, if you will, going through it.\n\n617\n00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:56.880\nAnd those two things, you know, really stood out for me as I think about people\n\n618\n00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:57.160\n.\n\n619\n00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:02.580\nAnd I think about sometimes the differences that we see or we are perceived to\n\n620\n00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:03.200\nhave, you\n\n621\n00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:07.900\nknow, country to country, region to region is the biggest thing to me was\n\n622\n00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:08.680\nlanding in\n\n623\n00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:12.820\nall these different places, meeting all these different people and realizing,\n\n624\n00:26:12.820 --> 00:26:13.800\nyou know what,\n\n625\n00:26:13.800 --> 00:26:18.420\nwe're all largely trying to do the same things, do a good job, raise a family,\n\n626\n00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:18.720\nyou know, have\n\n627\n00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:20.440\na good life.\n\n628\n00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:25.580\nAnd if we can remember that and stay focused on that, I think we could maybe\n\n629\n00:26:25.580 --> 00:26:26.520\nreduce some\n\n630\n00:26:26.520 --> 00:26:29.560\nof the conflict and the tension that's out there.\n\n631\n00:26:29.560 --> 00:26:33.680\nBut I'll tell you my first experience and it just blew my mind.\n\n632\n00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.240\nFirst time I was in Hong Kong was to launch Blackberry.\n\n633\n00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.880\nAnd when launched in any Asian countries at that point.\n\n634\n00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:46.000\nAnd we were doing it with Canning Fock, who was leading Hudgison.\n\n635\n00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.240\nAnd he was basically a celebrity there.\n\n636\n00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.360\nAnd so we turn up in this giant ballroom in Hong Kong.\n\n637\n00:26:52.360 --> 00:26:59.400\nHe arrives on a speedboat across the harbor and he walks in and there must have\n\n638\n00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:00.520\nbeen 50\n\n639\n00:27:00.520 --> 00:27:03.120\nphotographers, like taking pictures of him.\n\n640\n00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:06.440\nLike he's a celebrity basically coming to present on the stage.\n\n641\n00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:10.640\nAnd he presents and talks about how to bring you Blackberry to Hong Kong.\n\n642\n00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:16.530\nAnd there I am, you know, at that point 26, I want to say, you know, first time\n\n643\n00:27:16.530 --> 00:27:17.160\never in\n\n644\n00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:21.530\nHong Kong, turns it over to me to present about Blackberry in front of all this\n\n645\n00:27:21.530 --> 00:27:22.240\nmedia,\n\n646\n00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.840\nall these people in this massive, massive exhibition hall.\n\n647\n00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:29.640\nAnd then I started to go through the Blackberry story and some of those.\n\n648\n00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.520\nAnd I just, I look back on that and it was like, wow.\n\n649\n00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:36.980\nAnd you realize like sometimes, okay, like here I am and you just got to own it\n\n650\n00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:37.840\nand present\n\n651\n00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:38.840\nand go through it.\n\n652\n00:27:38.840 --> 00:27:41.630\nBut there were a few moments like that where you pinch yourself when we were\n\n653\n00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:42.120\nlaunching\n\n654\n00:27:42.120 --> 00:27:47.040\nin India and there was a Bollywood star there and she was incredible and\n\n655\n00:27:47.040 --> 00:27:48.120\ngorgeous and there\n\n656\n00:27:48.120 --> 00:27:49.520\nlike all the attention there.\n\n657\n00:27:49.520 --> 00:27:51.680\nAnd then here's Patrick to talk about Blackberry.\n\n658\n00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:56.830\nAnd it's kind of like these surreal situations that you just kind of are like,\n\n659\n00:27:56.830 --> 00:27:57.400\nokay, this\n\n660\n00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:00.960\nis strange, but I'm going to go with it.\n\n661\n00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:02.920\nI love it.\n\n662\n00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.800\nAnd so you're at Blackberry for 14 years.\n\n663\n00:28:05.800 --> 00:28:08.280\nYou obviously had a lot of love for the company.\n\n664\n00:28:08.280 --> 00:28:11.960\nWhat was it like watching Blackberry's ultimate demise?\n\n665\n00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.850\nAnd what did you learn from it that you try to keep front and center as you\n\n666\n00:28:15.850 --> 00:28:16.720\nlead Sonos?\n\n667\n00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:19.440\nYou know, I put those lessons to work every day.\n\n668\n00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.360\nI think it's the reason that I'm in a healthy way paranoid as well about the\n\n669\n00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:24.080\nimportance\n\n670\n00:28:24.080 --> 00:28:26.560\nof innovation and culture and some of these things.\n\n671\n00:28:26.560 --> 00:28:30.000\nIf you would have caught me, David, I would have bled Blackberry.\n\n672\n00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.250\nYou know, both as a Canadian and then somebody who was there, I joined when\n\n673\n00:28:33.250 --> 00:28:34.280\nthere were 150\n\n674\n00:28:34.280 --> 00:28:36.440\npeople, virtually no revenue.\n\n675\n00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:40.920\nAnd we took that to 70,000 people and 20 billion in revenue in my last year.\n\n676\n00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:44.650\nAnd I played an instrumental role in making that happen that I'm still very\n\n677\n00:28:44.650 --> 00:28:45.360\nproud of.\n\n678\n00:28:45.360 --> 00:28:50.420\nBut a couple of things that really happened there, I feel, that are the reason\n\n679\n00:28:50.420 --> 00:28:51.000\nthat it\n\n680\n00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.160\nis where it is today.\n\n681\n00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:58.170\nAnd the first is when Apple introduced the iPhone, we got overly focused on\n\n682\n00:28:58.170 --> 00:28:59.160\nresponding\n\n683\n00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:01.280\nto the iPhone and Apple.\n\n684\n00:29:01.280 --> 00:29:06.120\nVerizon wrote us a ginormous check to create the response to the iPhone.\n\n685\n00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:09.600\nIt was called the Blackberry Storm, our first touchscreen product.\n\n686\n00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:11.560\nAnd we launched that.\n\n687\n00:29:11.560 --> 00:29:15.120\nAnd over the course of a weekend, we almost threw away 10 years of hard work in\n\n688\n00:29:15.120 --> 00:29:15.640\nbuilding\n\n689\n00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.490\nup everything Blackberry stood for because the product was not good, was not\n\n690\n00:29:19.490 --> 00:29:20.200\nreliable.\n\n691\n00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.580\nWe'd rushed it to market as this response based on the pressure from both Apple\n\n692\n00:29:23.580 --> 00:29:24.280\n, competitively\n\n693\n00:29:24.280 --> 00:29:26.040\nand then Verizon.\n\n694\n00:29:26.040 --> 00:29:28.960\nInstead of building our own response.\n\n695\n00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:31.800\nAnd so I'll tell you how that directly related to Sonos.\n\n696\n00:29:31.800 --> 00:29:36.190\nWhen Amazon and Google brought out their smart speakers that were $25 and our\n\n697\n00:29:36.190 --> 00:29:36.800\nspeakers\n\n698\n00:29:36.800 --> 00:29:39.160\nwould range from $200 to $1,000.\n\n699\n00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.190\nAnd there were people inside the company saying, \"We need to rush out a $25\n\n700\n00:29:42.190 --> 00:29:42.800\nspeaker.\"\n\n701\n00:29:42.800 --> 00:29:45.320\nI said, \"That's exactly what we're not going to do.\n\n702\n00:29:45.320 --> 00:29:47.120\nWe are not going to respond.\n\n703\n00:29:47.120 --> 00:29:51.040\nWe are going to build the next set of best Sonos products.\n\n704\n00:29:51.040 --> 00:29:53.810\nAnd we're going to take advantage of some of the services that they're offering\n\n705\n00:29:53.810 --> 00:29:54.200\nbecause\n\n706\n00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:56.000\nthose are valuable to customers.\n\n707\n00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.950\nBut our future is not copying what somebody else is doing and selling at a loss\n\n708\n00:29:59.950 --> 00:30:01.200\n, for instance.\n\n709\n00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:05.090\nAnd then the other big lesson I think is the classic notion that what you do\n\n710\n00:30:05.090 --> 00:30:05.800\ntoday may\n\n711\n00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:10.090\nnot be what you need to be doing for the next five years from now, 10 years\n\n712\n00:30:10.090 --> 00:30:10.840\nfrom now.\n\n713\n00:30:10.840 --> 00:30:14.080\nAnd so that story I was telling about Blackberry Messenger where I think we\n\n714\n00:30:14.080 --> 00:30:14.760\nreally needed to\n\n715\n00:30:14.760 --> 00:30:19.180\npivot and open up Blackberry Messenger was something that I think about every\n\n716\n00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:19.640\nday.\n\n717\n00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:24.160\nAnd it has directly translated into a relationship we have at Sonos with IKEA.\n\n718\n00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:29.330\nWhere we actually take Sonos inside of IKEA products and you still use the Son\n\n719\n00:30:29.330 --> 00:30:30.040\nos app,\n\n720\n00:30:30.040 --> 00:30:34.080\nbut IKEA has embedded Sonos with some of our sound inside a lamp, inside a\n\n721\n00:30:34.080 --> 00:30:34.800\nbookshelf\n\n722\n00:30:34.800 --> 00:30:39.990\nspeaker because a lot of our magic is the software and what we've built and the\n\n723\n00:30:39.990 --> 00:30:40.520\nwhole\n\n724\n00:30:40.520 --> 00:30:41.520\nexperience.\n\n725\n00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:46.330\nAnd so I've used that as an opportunity to teach the organization that, \"Hey,\n\n726\n00:30:46.330 --> 00:30:46.640\nwe may\n\n727\n00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:51.870\nneed to think about other ways to really build our business and our company as\n\n728\n00:30:51.870 --> 00:30:52.280\nwe think\n\n729\n00:30:52.280 --> 00:30:53.280\nabout the future.\"\n\n730\n00:30:53.280 --> 00:30:58.310\nSo those are two specific, big examples that I think I put to work every single\n\n731\n00:30:58.310 --> 00:30:58.880\nday.\n\n732\n00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:01.000\nI think it's really cool what you're doing with IKEA.\n\n733\n00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.120\nThat's really, really smart thinking.\n\n734\n00:31:03.120 --> 00:31:05.720\nSo you joined Sonos in 2012.\n\n735\n00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:08.240\nFive years later, you become the CEO.\n\n736\n00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.120\nWas becoming CEO always the goal for you?\n\n737\n00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:15.530\nOne of our early investors tells a story about sitting with me early on maybe\n\n738\n00:31:15.530 --> 00:31:16.120\nlike a year\n\n739\n00:31:16.120 --> 00:31:19.200\ninto Sonos and me saying, \"I absolutely want to be a CEO.\"\n\n740\n00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.280\nSo he told me in hindsight, he said, \"No one's ever said that to him.\"\n\n741\n00:31:22.280 --> 00:31:23.840\nAnd he always thought it was weird.\n\n742\n00:31:23.840 --> 00:31:27.520\nBut I kind of felt like, and this still sounds strange as a Canadian, but it's\n\n743\n00:31:27.520 --> 00:31:28.160\nprobably the\n\n744\n00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:31.450\ncompetitive thing, but it's also, I think, my experience from team sports, I\n\n745\n00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:31.840\nkind of\n\n746\n00:31:31.840 --> 00:31:35.200\nfelt like it was something I was destined to do.\n\n747\n00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:39.350\nAnd maybe not specifically CEO, but just leadership in general and leading a\n\n748\n00:31:39.350 --> 00:31:39.880\nteam.\n\n749\n00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:43.040\nBut it's kind of where I ended up with most sports teams.\n\n750\n00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:45.760\nIt was kind of the trajectory I was on at Blackberry.\n\n751\n00:31:45.760 --> 00:31:48.840\nAnd then when I joined Sonos, I knew the founder, John.\n\n752\n00:31:48.840 --> 00:31:52.360\nWe had open conversations that he wasn't going to do the job forever.\n\n753\n00:31:52.360 --> 00:31:54.960\nAnd so it was something that I was interested in.\n\n754\n00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.590\nI was always curious about, and I'm just so grateful I've had the opportunity\n\n755\n00:31:58.590 --> 00:31:59.240\nto actually\n\n756\n00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:03.080\ntake on the role and see what it's all about here at Sonos.\n\n757\n00:32:03.080 --> 00:32:07.040\nYou know, when you're having the big company meeting, you sound to me like one\n\n758\n00:32:07.040 --> 00:32:07.560\nof those\n\n759\n00:32:07.560 --> 00:32:10.920\nguys who just can't wait to get up there and give the big speech.\n\n760\n00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:14.440\nDo you feel like the organization is needing you?\n\n761\n00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:15.440\nHow do you feel?\n\n762\n00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:16.440\nI always crave that.\n\n763\n00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.160\nI mean, I don't mind admitting it.\n\n764\n00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.160\nHow about you?\n\n765\n00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:20.160\nI love it.\n\n766\n00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:23.660\nBut I'll tell you, I got some interesting feedback through the pandemic, which\n\n767\n00:32:23.660 --> 00:32:24.280\nwas that\n\n768\n00:32:24.280 --> 00:32:25.280\nwe shifted.\n\n769\n00:32:25.280 --> 00:32:29.550\nSo we would do typically an all hands meeting, you know, once a month prior to\n\n770\n00:32:29.550 --> 00:32:30.480\nthe pandemic.\n\n771\n00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:33.380\nAnd I would stand up on a stage here in Santa Barbara, and it would be\n\n772\n00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:34.200\nbroadcast around\n\n773\n00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.480\nthe world and our people here would be in person.\n\n774\n00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:38.760\nAnd I would say I got good reviews.\n\n775\n00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:40.640\nIt fired me up for sure.\n\n776\n00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.040\nBut the interesting thing that I heard during the pandemic was I shifted the\n\n777\n00:32:45.040 --> 00:32:45.760\ncadence.\n\n778\n00:32:45.760 --> 00:32:49.480\nSo we went to weekly all hands just so that we could keep communications high,\n\n779\n00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:50.000\nright?\n\n780\n00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.160\nBecause there was a lot of uncertainty.\n\n781\n00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:53.240\nI wanted to make sure people had the support they needed.\n\n782\n00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:55.960\nAnd I was communicating pretty frequently.\n\n783\n00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:01.900\nAnd I got a lot of positive feedback on presenting from my home office, sitting\n\n784\n00:33:01.900 --> 00:33:02.640\ndown in a little\n\n785\n00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:08.270\nmore casual environment of it seeming much more authentic and much less like\n\n786\n00:33:08.270 --> 00:33:08.920\nthe CEO\n\n787\n00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:14.120\nyou all expect to see on the stage versus Patrick, the person and, you know,\n\n788\n00:33:14.120 --> 00:33:15.200\nhuman leader.\n\n789\n00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.560\nAnd actually people needed to see in the pandemic.\n\n790\n00:33:17.560 --> 00:33:22.560\nSo it was fascinating to me to get that feedback kind of through this.\n\n791\n00:33:22.560 --> 00:33:27.110\nAnd it's made me think in terms of the way that I show up and how I make sure\n\n792\n00:33:27.110 --> 00:33:27.280\nthat there's\n\n793\n00:33:27.280 --> 00:33:31.020\nalmost like that presentation mode versus, you know, just trying to make sure\n\n794\n00:33:31.020 --> 00:33:31.480\nthat I'm\n\n795\n00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:34.670\nbeing authentic and, you know, being kind of relaxed, maybe a little bit more\n\n796\n00:33:34.670 --> 00:33:35.040\nand a little\n\n797\n00:33:35.040 --> 00:33:38.790\nbit more, you know, natural in terms of that versus going into this\n\n798\n00:33:38.790 --> 00:33:39.880\npresentation mode and\n\n799\n00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:43.350\ntry to nail it and, you know, win the presentation to some degree and win those\n\n800\n00:33:43.350 --> 00:33:44.440\nhearts and minds.\n\n801\n00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:45.440\nI find it energizing.\n\n802\n00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:46.740\nI absolutely do.\n\n803\n00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:51.210\nAnd the crazy thing is I am an introvert, but I find that very energizing to\n\n804\n00:33:51.210 --> 00:33:51.960\nspeak to the\n\n805\n00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:56.080\nwhole company and be able to tell our story and we have such great people.\n\n806\n00:33:56.080 --> 00:33:57.080\nSo I just love it.\n\n807\n00:33:57.080 --> 00:33:58.080\nI love it.\n\n808\n00:33:58.080 --> 00:34:00.760\nYou know, you mentioned you work on showing up the right way.\n\n809\n00:34:00.760 --> 00:34:03.520\nDo you have any daily rituals that you do to show up?\n\n810\n00:34:03.520 --> 00:34:04.520\nI do.\n\n811\n00:34:04.520 --> 00:34:08.760\nThe most important daily ritual for me is I get up at five in the morning.\n\n812\n00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:10.280\nI get hydrated.\n\n813\n00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:12.560\nI have a coffee start to get ready for the day.\n\n814\n00:34:12.560 --> 00:34:14.960\nAnd then I hit the beach at five 30 a.m.\n\n815\n00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.550\nAnd I work out on the beach here in Santa Barbara with an amazing group of\n\n816\n00:34:18.550 --> 00:34:19.200\npeople.\n\n817\n00:34:19.200 --> 00:34:20.440\nWe left sandbags.\n\n818\n00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:21.920\nWe run sand sprints.\n\n819\n00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:26.440\nWe do some pretty crazy stuff, but I have found it incredibly powerful to start\n\n820\n00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:26.920\nthe day\n\n821\n00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:31.550\nwith physical activity on the beach, you know, watch the sunrise, breathe that\n\n822\n00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:32.400\nfresh air,\n\n823\n00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:34.000\nhear the waves crashing.\n\n824\n00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.710\nAnd that puts me in a frame of mind that I feel like allows me to be a better\n\n825\n00:34:39.710 --> 00:34:40.600\nhusband,\n\n826\n00:34:40.600 --> 00:34:43.920\nfather, and leader because I'm ready to take on the day.\n\n827\n00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:44.920\nI've done that.\n\n828\n00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:47.280\nIt's under my belt to have the energy from that.\n\n829\n00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.120\nAnd it allows me to put any of the challenges and you know this from your past,\n\n830\n00:34:51.120 --> 00:34:51.600\nlike all\n\n831\n00:34:51.600 --> 00:34:55.320\nthe daily crises that come up, be able to put those in perspective and deal\n\n832\n00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:55.920\nwith those\n\n833\n00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:58.640\nin the way that I want to deal with them, right?\n\n834\n00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:03.240\nWhich is in a calm, collected, you know, kind of calculated way.\n\n835\n00:35:03.240 --> 00:35:07.300\nAnd that has been something that is incredibly important and I think made me\n\n836\n00:35:07.300 --> 00:35:08.080\njust a better\n\n837\n00:35:08.080 --> 00:35:09.080\nperson.\n\n838\n00:35:09.080 --> 00:35:10.560\nPatrick, you've moved up.\n\n839\n00:35:10.560 --> 00:35:14.900\nYou've taken on more and more responsibility, had more and more people working\n\n840\n00:35:14.900 --> 00:35:15.520\nfor you,\n\n841\n00:35:15.520 --> 00:35:17.840\nmore and more people that you're accountable for.\n\n842\n00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.480\nAs you've taken on more and more responsibility, what was the biggest personal\n\n843\n00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:22.080\nleadership\n\n844\n00:35:22.080 --> 00:35:23.440\nchallenge you had?\n\n845\n00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:28.500\nYou know, I think the biggest mistake that I made was in my career at Black\n\n846\n00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:29.760\nberry, I felt\n\n847\n00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:33.540\nlike the number of people reporting to me and the number of things I could be\n\n848\n00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:34.120\ninvolved\n\n849\n00:35:34.120 --> 00:35:38.570\nin, you know, was a sign of strength versus thinking about the kind of team I'm\n\n850\n00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:39.200\nbuilding\n\n851\n00:35:39.200 --> 00:35:40.480\nand how I'm supporting the team.\n\n852\n00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:44.590\nAnd so I'll take you back to when I left Blackberry, I think at the last moment\n\n853\n00:35:44.590 --> 00:35:45.600\nI had\n\n854\n00:35:45.600 --> 00:35:49.100\n21 direct reports and I was trying to be involved in every major deal that we\n\n855\n00:35:49.100 --> 00:35:49.760\nwere doing as\n\n856\n00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.160\nleading our sales and marketing globally.\n\n857\n00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:54.920\nAnd in hindsight, I thought that was a show of strength and I was a great\n\n858\n00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:55.480\nleader as a\n\n859\n00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:59.990\nresult and I wasn't because I wasn't giving those leaders the kind of support\n\n860\n00:35:59.990 --> 00:36:00.640\nthat they\n\n861\n00:36:00.640 --> 00:36:01.640\nneeded.\n\n862\n00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:04.800\nI wasn't empowering them and I wasn't leveraging myself in that way.\n\n863\n00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:06.280\nI was way too involved.\n\n864\n00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:10.010\nAnd so John and really my experience at Sonos and some of the board members\n\n865\n00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:10.720\nhere helped\n\n866\n00:36:10.720 --> 00:36:15.220\nme understand that that is not, you know, the key to being successful and it\n\n867\n00:36:15.220 --> 00:36:15.760\nwasn't\n\n868\n00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.600\ngoing to enable me to really rise to the next level of leadership.\n\n869\n00:36:19.600 --> 00:36:23.200\nI was a little bit leadership by brute force and ego quite frankly.\n\n870\n00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:26.860\nYou know, here I've taken a much different approach and I would say to a person\n\n871\n00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:27.240\n, all\n\n872\n00:36:27.240 --> 00:36:31.080\nthe leaders on my team here are much better at their area.\n\n873\n00:36:31.080 --> 00:36:36.620\nAnd really in terms of my weekly one to one with them, they have the agenda and\n\n874\n00:36:36.620 --> 00:36:37.560\nmy question\n\n875\n00:36:37.560 --> 00:36:39.120\nis how do I support you?\n\n876\n00:36:39.120 --> 00:36:40.280\nWhat can I do to help?\n\n877\n00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:41.760\nAnd that is why I am here.\n\n878\n00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:46.920\nIf I am successful, I'm making very few decisions and I'm helping those people\n\n879\n00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:47.800\non my team be\n\n880\n00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:48.800\nsuccessful.\n\n881\n00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:50.400\nAnd that's the way I look at it now.\n\n882\n00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:55.530\nAnd really I think the test of any leader, particularly CEOs is where is the\n\n883\n00:36:55.530 --> 00:36:56.760\norganization,\n\n884\n00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.400\nyou know, 10 or 20 years after you leave?\n\n885\n00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:02.880\nAnd that is what I think about every day and I think about my team in that way.\n\n886\n00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.840\nI think about our next generation of leaders in that way.\n\n887\n00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:06.920\nI think about recruiting in that way.\n\n888\n00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:11.420\nAnd am I, you know, setting up the team and the leaders so that one of them can\n\n889\n00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:12.040\nstep into\n\n890\n00:37:12.040 --> 00:37:15.990\nthis role when my time is done and that we're building the capabilities in the\n\n891\n00:37:15.990 --> 00:37:16.800\norganization\n\n892\n00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:21.560\nto adapt as necessary so that we can be one of those companies that endures.\n\n893\n00:37:21.560 --> 00:37:24.840\nYou know, Patrick, as I was learning about your company, it seems to me that\n\n894\n00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:25.440\nSonos has\n\n895\n00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:28.080\na very unique approach to technology.\n\n896\n00:37:28.080 --> 00:37:32.670\nMost technology companies want to obsolete their products so that you have to\n\n897\n00:37:32.670 --> 00:37:33.160\nbuy new\n\n898\n00:37:33.160 --> 00:37:34.240\nones.\n\n899\n00:37:34.240 --> 00:37:36.360\nYou want your products to last.\n\n900\n00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.680\nWalk me through the journey of arriving at that kind of strategy.\n\n901\n00:37:39.680 --> 00:37:43.600\nAnd why do you think it's an enduring strategy?\n\n902\n00:37:43.600 --> 00:37:47.440\nIt is so counter to everything in consumer electronics.\n\n903\n00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.760\nLike you said, most companies are quote unquote refreshing their products every\n\n904\n00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:51.320\nyear and they're\n\n905\n00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:55.010\ntrying to get you to buy new ones and they're not investing in those components\n\n906\n00:37:55.010 --> 00:37:55.080\n.\n\n907\n00:37:55.080 --> 00:37:59.460\nYou know, both John, our founder and myself, having done large companies before\n\n908\n00:37:59.460 --> 00:37:59.960\nand built\n\n909\n00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:04.270\nsomething of scale and I would say importance, we decided that building\n\n910\n00:38:04.270 --> 00:38:05.400\nsomething for the\n\n911\n00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:09.300\nlong term and enduring is something we wanted to do because too many companies\n\n912\n00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:09.840\nare built\n\n913\n00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.280\nfor the short term, maybe to sell or to go public and then, you know, they kind\n\n914\n00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:13.680\nof lose\n\n915\n00:38:13.680 --> 00:38:15.160\ntheir way.\n\n916\n00:38:15.160 --> 00:38:18.740\nAnd so that goes right down to the product that we wanted to build and thinking\n\n917\n00:38:18.740 --> 00:38:19.120\nabout\n\n918\n00:38:19.120 --> 00:38:22.910\nhow we build something that lasts for a long time and what our hypothesis was\n\n919\n00:38:22.910 --> 00:38:23.400\nand this\n\n920\n00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:24.400\nis played out.\n\n921\n00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:25.400\nAnd so we've taken a while.\n\n922\n00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:31.020\nWe've been shipping products since 2005 at this point is that those customers\n\n923\n00:38:31.020 --> 00:38:31.600\nwould be\n\n924\n00:38:31.600 --> 00:38:35.890\nloyal to Sonos if we're loyal to them and creating better experiences over time\n\n925\n00:38:35.890 --> 00:38:36.160\n.\n\n926\n00:38:36.160 --> 00:38:40.560\nAnd so we are very proud of the fact that we create products that last the\n\n927\n00:38:40.560 --> 00:38:41.280\nlongest of\n\n928\n00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.960\nany consumer electronics products out there.\n\n929\n00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:47.630\nAnd it's paid off in the sense that customers have come back and added more\n\n930\n00:38:47.630 --> 00:38:48.400\nover time.\n\n931\n00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:51.320\nAnd that is also a business model that is very different than anyone's that's\n\n932\n00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:52.000\nout there.\n\n933\n00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:56.150\nWe don't want customers to upgrade their product every year or replace or what\n\n934\n00:38:56.150 --> 00:38:56.480\nhave\n\n935\n00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:57.480\nyou.\n\n936\n00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:01.040\nWhat we look at is how many additional products have you added to your home?\n\n937\n00:39:01.040 --> 00:39:04.240\nAnd as you mentioned, you know, now we're up to an average of three products\n\n938\n00:39:04.240 --> 00:39:05.040\nper home.\n\n939\n00:39:05.040 --> 00:39:08.160\nWe're fortunate enough to have some people that have, you know, 30 Sonos\n\n940\n00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:08.720\nproducts in\n\n941\n00:39:08.720 --> 00:39:09.720\ntheir home.\n\n942\n00:39:09.720 --> 00:39:14.070\nI really think that the maximum of what we can have as an average of people's\n\n943\n00:39:14.070 --> 00:39:14.520\nhome is\n\n944\n00:39:14.520 --> 00:39:17.000\nreally just a figment of our imagination.\n\n945\n00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:19.720\nLike what products can we come up with as we think about that life and sound\n\n946\n00:39:19.720 --> 00:39:20.200\nthroughout\n\n947\n00:39:20.200 --> 00:39:21.200\nyour life, right?\n\n948\n00:39:21.200 --> 00:39:25.680\nAnd so it's really been a philosophical thing to try and build amazing products\n\n949\n00:39:25.680 --> 00:39:26.400\nthat last\n\n950\n00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:29.560\nfor a long time because it's something we would want as consumers.\n\n951\n00:39:29.560 --> 00:39:32.760\nIt's something we think is better for the environment.\n\n952\n00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:35.640\nAnd so it's just something that's been important to us.\n\n953\n00:39:35.640 --> 00:39:39.770\nAnd I think when you're hiring for that, when you're thinking in that way, it\n\n954\n00:39:39.770 --> 00:39:40.480\ncan't help\n\n955\n00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:44.360\nbut influence also the kind of people that you're attracting to your culture.\n\n956\n00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:47.880\nAnd so I think that helps in trying to build a company as well that's enduring.\n\n957\n00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:56.890\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Patrick Spenson just a\n\n958\n00:39:56.890 --> 00:39:58.240\nmoment.\n\n959\n00:39:58.240 --> 00:40:01.370\nCreating products that are built to last is something another great leader\n\n960\n00:40:01.370 --> 00:40:01.880\nkeeps top of\n\n961\n00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:02.880\nmine.\n\n962\n00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:06.440\nScott Mahoney, the chairman and CEO of Peter Millar.\n\n963\n00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:08.280\nIt's not about margin.\n\n964\n00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:09.480\nIt's doing it right.\n\n965\n00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:11.200\nIt's controlling distribution.\n\n966\n00:40:11.200 --> 00:40:13.240\nIt's doing the right things.\n\n967\n00:40:13.240 --> 00:40:16.950\nIt's treating your customers right, making your products great and having\n\n968\n00:40:16.950 --> 00:40:17.800\nintegrity in\n\n969\n00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:21.160\nyour company and in your products.\n\n970\n00:40:21.160 --> 00:40:24.560\nIf you're enjoying this conversation with Patrick Spenson, I just know you're\n\n971\n00:40:24.560 --> 00:40:25.240\ngoing to learn\n\n972\n00:40:25.240 --> 00:40:27.840\na lot from my interview with Scott as well.\n\n973\n00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:38.240\nGo back and listen to episode 59 with Scott Mahoney here on How Leaders Lead.\n\n974\n00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:41.580\nYou've mentioned culture more than once in this conversation and I can tell you\n\n975\n00:40:41.580 --> 00:40:42.040\n're really\n\n976\n00:40:42.040 --> 00:40:43.760\npassionate about that.\n\n977\n00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:47.520\nGive us an example of how you personally champion the culture you want to see.\n\n978\n00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:51.670\nWhat are those behaviors that you want to see in your company that you\n\n979\n00:40:51.670 --> 00:40:53.080\npurposely recognize\n\n980\n00:40:53.080 --> 00:40:55.600\nand reinforce every day?\n\n981\n00:40:55.600 --> 00:41:00.620\nRespect, transparency, ownership and collaboration are the ones that we're very\n\n982\n00:41:00.620 --> 00:41:02.480\nfocused in on.\n\n983\n00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:08.370\nProbably the most important thing is actually measuring the people on my team\n\n984\n00:41:08.370 --> 00:41:09.160\nand all of\n\n985\n00:41:09.160 --> 00:41:11.920\nthe managers in the organization on those.\n\n986\n00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:15.840\nHalf of your performance review is what did you achieve and half is how did you\n\n987\n00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:16.360\nachieve\n\n988\n00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:17.360\nit.\n\n989\n00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:21.530\nWe used 360s, we used our employee surveys to see how we're doing in terms of\n\n990\n00:41:21.530 --> 00:41:22.160\nliving up\n\n991\n00:41:22.160 --> 00:41:24.600\nto those behaviors.\n\n992\n00:41:24.600 --> 00:41:28.620\nWe put a pretty rigorous system in place to actually make sure we're living up\n\n993\n00:41:28.620 --> 00:41:29.120\nto them\n\n994\n00:41:29.120 --> 00:41:31.680\nbecause as you know, you've seen this a million times, right?\n\n995\n00:41:31.680 --> 00:41:33.560\nIt's easy to say these words.\n\n996\n00:41:33.560 --> 00:41:37.310\nWe actually put examples of what it means and what it doesn't mean into\n\n997\n00:41:37.310 --> 00:41:38.200\ndocumentation\n\n998\n00:41:38.200 --> 00:41:41.880\nthat we share with the organization and I lead that session.\n\n999\n00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:45.540\nThere's a session that a video now for all new employees that walks through the\n\n1000\n00:41:45.540 --> 00:41:46.080\nbehaviors\n\n1001\n00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:48.000\nand what it means and what it doesn't.\n\n1002\n00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:51.440\nThat comes from me because it does start with me and I think about how I show\n\n1003\n00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:52.080\nup in those\n\n1004\n00:41:52.080 --> 00:41:54.080\nways and work through it.\n\n1005\n00:41:54.080 --> 00:41:57.860\nThat's very important to me that I live to those behaviors as we call them\n\n1006\n00:41:57.860 --> 00:41:58.720\ninternally.\n\n1007\n00:41:58.720 --> 00:42:02.890\nThen looking at my review with the board and then the review for everybody on\n\n1008\n00:42:02.890 --> 00:42:03.440\nmy team and\n\n1009\n00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:07.080\nall the managers, like I said, we make sure that we're living up to those.\n\n1010\n00:42:07.080 --> 00:42:10.640\nThat I think is important because that is what enables you to walk the talk.\n\n1011\n00:42:10.640 --> 00:42:12.680\nI have to tell you, my ears kind of perked up.\n\n1012\n00:42:12.680 --> 00:42:16.880\nBut I heard you say that cultural fit is a misnomer.\n\n1013\n00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.000\nYou're not a big fan of the idea of cultural fit.\n\n1014\n00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:21.000\nExplain.\n\n1015\n00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.000\nYeah, no.\n\n1016\n00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.790\nI think that's a huge misnomer and I think it's what's led to a lack of\n\n1017\n00:42:26.790 --> 00:42:27.680\ndiversity in\n\n1018\n00:42:27.680 --> 00:42:29.320\norganizations as well.\n\n1019\n00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:32.560\nWhat we're looking for in every hire is cultural evolution.\n\n1020\n00:42:32.560 --> 00:42:36.580\nIf you are not evolving in this day and age and heading in the right direction\n\n1021\n00:42:36.580 --> 00:42:37.000\nand getting\n\n1022\n00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:41.680\nbetter every day, you are dying and companies out there need to recognize that.\n\n1023\n00:42:41.680 --> 00:42:46.280\nEvery new hire needs to contribute to the culture and help push the culture\n\n1024\n00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:46.600\ninto the\n\n1025\n00:42:46.600 --> 00:42:50.960\nfuture and in a new direction versus just fit in with the thing that worked\n\n1026\n00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:52.280\nyesterday.\n\n1027\n00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.640\nWe're always looking for that cultural evolution as we think about our next\n\n1028\n00:42:55.640 --> 00:42:56.160\nhires.\n\n1029\n00:42:56.160 --> 00:43:02.120\nI've also heard you say that everything you say as a CEO has outsized impact.\n\n1030\n00:43:02.120 --> 00:43:05.920\nGive us an example of where you might have learned that the hard way.\n\n1031\n00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:10.820\nWell, I think they won't tell me the ones where it's been used as a hammer, if\n\n1032\n00:43:10.820 --> 00:43:11.520\nyou will.\n\n1033\n00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:14.700\nI remember at RIM, there were many where you'd be sitting at a meeting and\n\n1034\n00:43:14.700 --> 00:43:15.600\nsomebody said,\n\n1035\n00:43:15.600 --> 00:43:19.200\n\"Well, Mike or Jim, because we had co-CEOs, Mike or Jim said this.\"\n\n1036\n00:43:19.200 --> 00:43:21.040\nIt was something crazy.\n\n1037\n00:43:21.040 --> 00:43:26.800\nThey said this and I would hear it and be like, \"But if we did that, that would\n\n1038\n00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:27.080\nbe the\n\n1039\n00:43:27.080 --> 00:43:29.800\nwrong thing for the customer or for the business.\"\n\n1040\n00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:31.520\nI'm sitting there going, \"They wouldn't.\"\n\n1041\n00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:33.520\nI knew both of them well enough to know.\n\n1042\n00:43:33.520 --> 00:43:39.340\nI would often, because I'm, again, probably just a little bit more determined\n\n1043\n00:43:39.340 --> 00:43:40.120\nthan most,\n\n1044\n00:43:40.120 --> 00:43:42.860\nI would weigh in and say, \"Well, they may have said that, but that's not what\n\n1045\n00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:43.120\nthey\n\n1046\n00:43:43.120 --> 00:43:47.470\nmeant in terms of why then people would be like, \"Oh, who are you to interpret\n\n1047\n00:43:47.470 --> 00:43:47.840\nwhat\n\n1048\n00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:48.840\nthey say?\"\n\n1049\n00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:49.840\nThey actually said this.\n\n1050\n00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.630\nI'm just careful about where I show up and what I say and I'm pretty thoughtful\n\n1051\n00:43:53.630 --> 00:43:54.040\nin terms\n\n1052\n00:43:54.040 --> 00:43:55.240\nof how I do that.\n\n1053\n00:43:55.240 --> 00:43:59.500\nI've actually said to my team and I've said to the broader company at times, if\n\n1054\n00:43:59.500 --> 00:43:59.800\nyou\n\n1055\n00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:01.960\nheard that used, I've actually said this.\n\n1056\n00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:06.710\nIf you hear my name used in that way and you don't think it's the right thing,\n\n1057\n00:44:06.710 --> 00:44:07.240\nplease\n\n1058\n00:44:07.240 --> 00:44:11.640\nmake a better decision or flag it to me or something like that.\n\n1059\n00:44:11.640 --> 00:44:13.560\nOf course, it's never perfect.\n\n1060\n00:44:13.560 --> 00:44:16.240\nI'm sure it gets used here and there.\n\n1061\n00:44:16.240 --> 00:44:23.660\nI remember that being such a hammer used on certain things to reduce debate or\n\n1062\n00:44:23.660 --> 00:44:25.160\npush through\n\n1063\n00:44:25.160 --> 00:44:27.880\nsomething that seemed silly and I wouldn't let it happen.\n\n1064\n00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:31.350\nI hope we're building a culture where certainly when my name gets taken in vain\n\n1065\n00:44:31.350 --> 00:44:32.040\n, it doesn't\n\n1066\n00:44:32.040 --> 00:44:33.040\njust pass through.\n\n1067\n00:44:33.040 --> 00:44:34.040\nThat's for sure.\n\n1068\n00:44:34.040 --> 00:44:37.070\nThis has been so much fun and I'd like to have a little bit more with you,\n\n1069\n00:44:37.070 --> 00:44:37.760\nPatrick, if you\n\n1070\n00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:40.320\ndon't mind with some rapid fire questions.\n\n1071\n00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:41.320\nAre you ready for this?\n\n1072\n00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:42.320\nI'm ready.\n\n1073\n00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:43.320\nFire away.\n\n1074\n00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:46.080\nWhat are the three words that best describe you?\n\n1075\n00:44:46.080 --> 00:44:51.400\nHumble, loyal, and I hope indomitable.\n\n1076\n00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:55.280\nIf you could be one person for a day, who would it be besides yourself?\n\n1077\n00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:56.720\nThere's two on this, right?\n\n1078\n00:44:56.720 --> 00:44:59.000\nThere's got to be a business and a sports angle.\n\n1079\n00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:03.220\nOn the business side, I'd love to be Tim Cook just to see the operations of an\n\n1080\n00:45:03.220 --> 00:45:03.840\namazing\n\n1081\n00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:05.880\nproduct company at that scale, right?\n\n1082\n00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:08.280\nAt scale that society's never seen before.\n\n1083\n00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:11.280\nBut on the sports side, I'd have to say Nick Nurse, the amazing coach of the\n\n1084\n00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:12.520\nToronto Raptors,\n\n1085\n00:45:12.520 --> 00:45:15.900\njust to see how he brings all those personalities together and gets them to\n\n1086\n00:45:15.900 --> 00:45:16.720\nplay together as\n\n1087\n00:45:16.720 --> 00:45:17.720\na unit.\n\n1088\n00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:18.840\nI think that would be amazing.\n\n1089\n00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.520\nYour biggest pet peeves.\n\n1090\n00:45:22.520 --> 00:45:24.400\nUndisciplined people.\n\n1091\n00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.520\nYour favorite Canadian band?\n\n1092\n00:45:26.520 --> 00:45:29.040\nOh, the Tragically Hip.\n\n1093\n00:45:29.040 --> 00:45:34.720\nOn a scale of one to 10, rate the 2022 Super Bowl halftime show.\n\n1094\n00:45:34.720 --> 00:45:37.200\nOh, 10 out of 10.\n\n1095\n00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:38.200\nThey rocked it.\n\n1096\n00:45:38.200 --> 00:45:40.120\nThat was amazing.\n\n1097\n00:45:40.120 --> 00:45:41.840\nDo you play any instruments?\n\n1098\n00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.560\nI do not.\n\n1099\n00:45:43.560 --> 00:45:48.400\nWhat's one thing that only a Canadian would know about Canada?\n\n1100\n00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:50.400\nWhat a took is.\n\n1101\n00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.600\nAnd what's a took?\n\n1102\n00:45:52.600 --> 00:45:54.840\nI think many Americans call it a beanie.\n\n1103\n00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:56.760\nThere you go.\n\n1104\n00:45:56.760 --> 00:46:01.440\nAnd what's one thing about you that few people would know?\n\n1105\n00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:07.040\nI was with Paris Hilton the night before she went to jail.\n\n1106\n00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:09.000\nAnd we'll leave it at that.\n\n1107\n00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:14.040\nWhat would one piece of advice be you'd give to anyone who wants to improve as\n\n1108\n00:46:14.040 --> 00:46:14.920\na leader?\n\n1109\n00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:17.760\nBe authentic.\n\n1110\n00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:23.110\nYou mentioned I think that you want to be adaptable, enduring, and admired as a\n\n1111\n00:46:23.110 --> 00:46:23.800\ncompany.\n\n1112\n00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:25.440\nAnd I understand the adaptable.\n\n1113\n00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.440\nI understand enduring.\n\n1114\n00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.440\nWhy admired?\n\n1115\n00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:34.000\nWhy is that so important to you as a trait that you want Sonos to have?\n\n1116\n00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:38.550\nBecause it's a reflection of whether we're building something that people care\n\n1117\n00:46:38.550 --> 00:46:39.160\nabout,\n\n1118\n00:46:39.160 --> 00:46:43.520\nquite frankly, and that they see and they admire the craftsmanship of what it\n\n1119\n00:46:43.520 --> 00:46:44.000\nis that\n\n1120\n00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:45.000\nwe're building.\n\n1121\n00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:46.520\nAnd that's important to me.\n\n1122\n00:46:46.520 --> 00:46:48.080\nThat's important to all the people that's on us.\n\n1123\n00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:51.420\nPatrick, I've just written a book called Take Charge of You, How Self Coaching\n\n1124\n00:46:51.420 --> 00:46:52.080\nCan Transform\n\n1125\n00:46:52.080 --> 00:46:53.480\nYour Life and Career.\n\n1126\n00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.630\nAnd I've learned over the years that really great leaders like yourself, you're\n\n1127\n00:46:57.630 --> 00:46:57.920\nreally\n\n1128\n00:46:57.920 --> 00:46:58.920\ngood at self coaching.\n\n1129\n00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:03.020\nYou're really good at assessing yourself and figuring out where you need to go\n\n1130\n00:47:03.020 --> 00:47:03.560\nnext.\n\n1131\n00:47:03.560 --> 00:47:04.800\nHow do you self coach?\n\n1132\n00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:08.090\nWhat's your process for really saying, \"Okay, this is how I'm going to take\n\n1133\n00:47:08.090 --> 00:47:08.520\nPatrick to\n\n1134\n00:47:08.520 --> 00:47:09.520\nthe next level?\"\n\n1135\n00:47:09.520 --> 00:47:15.070\nSo I consume an incredible amount of reading and podcasts about what other\n\n1136\n00:47:15.070 --> 00:47:15.960\nleaders are\n\n1137\n00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:18.160\ndoing and I'm trying to learn all the time.\n\n1138\n00:47:18.160 --> 00:47:23.300\nSo I am a voracious consumer of content around what the best leaders are doing\n\n1139\n00:47:23.300 --> 00:47:23.680\nto try and\n\n1140\n00:47:23.680 --> 00:47:25.120\npick up tips here and there.\n\n1141\n00:47:25.120 --> 00:47:29.630\nAnd then having conversations with both my team and the board and anybody I can\n\n1142\n00:47:29.630 --> 00:47:29.880\n.\n\n1143\n00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:33.780\nSo what I've found, which is really interesting to me, is most of the CEOs out\n\n1144\n00:47:33.780 --> 00:47:34.720\nthere are willing\n\n1145\n00:47:34.720 --> 00:47:38.440\nto take a call from another CEO and just have a conversation about challenges\n\n1146\n00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:39.160\nthey're going\n\n1147\n00:47:39.160 --> 00:47:40.360\nthrough and these kind of things.\n\n1148\n00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:45.730\nAnd so I've never really found that having one individual mentor has worked for\n\n1149\n00:47:45.730 --> 00:47:46.080\nme.\n\n1150\n00:47:46.080 --> 00:47:49.490\nAnd so instead, what I've done is basically try to learn something or pick\n\n1151\n00:47:49.490 --> 00:47:50.240\nsomething up\n\n1152\n00:47:50.240 --> 00:47:53.680\nfrom every single person that I interact with, regardless of where they are in\n\n1153\n00:47:53.680 --> 00:47:54.680\nthe organization,\n\n1154\n00:47:54.680 --> 00:47:57.320\nregardless of whether they're CEO or not.\n\n1155\n00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:01.950\nAnd so for me, just trying to be curious and learn and get better over time\n\n1156\n00:48:01.950 --> 00:48:02.680\npicking up\n\n1157\n00:48:02.680 --> 00:48:06.320\nthings from people I work out with in the morning, from anybody that we happen\n\n1158\n00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:06.640\nto come\n\n1159\n00:48:06.640 --> 00:48:10.120\nacross in social situations and just trying to understand their story and learn\n\n1160\n00:48:10.120 --> 00:48:10.680\nsomething\n\n1161\n00:48:10.680 --> 00:48:11.680\nfrom them.\n\n1162\n00:48:11.680 --> 00:48:14.800\nI think you'd be surprised where you can pick those things up.\n\n1163\n00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:17.700\nAnd of course, a podcast like yours and many of the different podcasts and\n\n1164\n00:48:17.700 --> 00:48:18.240\nbooks that are\n\n1165\n00:48:18.240 --> 00:48:23.730\nout there today, everything is out there that'll allow you to kind of learn and\n\n1166\n00:48:23.730 --> 00:48:24.520\nfigure out\n\n1167\n00:48:24.520 --> 00:48:27.700\nthe way that you should be thinking about yourself and maybe how you can get\n\n1168\n00:48:27.700 --> 00:48:28.280\nbetter as\n\n1169\n00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:29.280\nwell.\n\n1170\n00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:31.760\nAnd then in that early morning period, I do a little bit more reflection before\n\n1171\n00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:32.160\nI work\n\n1172\n00:48:32.160 --> 00:48:33.160\nout typically.\n\n1173\n00:48:33.160 --> 00:48:36.390\nAnd so I'm generally reflecting and doing a little bit of gratitude to just in\n\n1174\n00:48:36.390 --> 00:48:37.120\nterms of\n\n1175\n00:48:37.120 --> 00:48:40.930\nhow fortunate I am, but also reflecting on the way I showed up yesterday and\n\n1176\n00:48:40.930 --> 00:48:41.480\nthe way I\n\n1177\n00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:42.880\nhope to show up today.\n\n1178\n00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.810\nOne last question here, you're highly reputed for being what I would call a\n\n1179\n00:48:46.810 --> 00:48:47.800\ncustomer maniac.\n\n1180\n00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:49.920\nI mean, you are focused on your consumers.\n\n1181\n00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:52.640\nYou want to know what makes them tick.\n\n1182\n00:48:52.640 --> 00:48:56.000\nWhat do you do that is unique on that front as a leader?\n\n1183\n00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:00.000\nYeah, I mean, my email is available on our website.\n\n1184\n00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:04.040\nAnd so I get emails from customers all the time, good and bad.\n\n1185\n00:49:04.040 --> 00:49:07.280\nAnd I will tell you the number of emails I get from customers talking about how\n\n1186\n00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:07.560\nmuch\n\n1187\n00:49:07.560 --> 00:49:11.710\nthey love their Sonos and the way it's helped a family member that was\n\n1188\n00:49:11.710 --> 00:49:12.680\nsuffering.\n\n1189\n00:49:12.680 --> 00:49:16.260\nYou know, actually get through and people in the pandemic having challenges or\n\n1190\n00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:16.680\na dance\n\n1191\n00:49:16.680 --> 00:49:18.080\nparty for a young family.\n\n1192\n00:49:18.080 --> 00:49:22.570\nI mean, just these incredible stories that people share with me are so powerful\n\n1193\n00:49:22.570 --> 00:49:22.840\n.\n\n1194\n00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:25.200\nAnd I share those then with the rest of the company too.\n\n1195\n00:49:25.200 --> 00:49:29.330\nAnd I've gotten more feedback on sharing those customer stories with people\n\n1196\n00:49:29.330 --> 00:49:30.200\ninternally and\n\n1197\n00:49:30.200 --> 00:49:33.400\nhow positive it is for them because, you know, day to day, you're grinding\n\n1198\n00:49:33.400 --> 00:49:34.120\nthrough like a\n\n1199\n00:49:34.120 --> 00:49:35.840\nlot of different challenges, right?\n\n1200\n00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:40.250\nBut to give the organization a chance to hear the stories from our customers of\n\n1201\n00:49:40.250 --> 00:49:41.000\nhow Sonos\n\n1202\n00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:44.480\nis bringing joy to their life and how it's impacting them is so powerful.\n\n1203\n00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:48.210\nOf course, I'm getting, you know, lots of customer care and support asks as\n\n1204\n00:49:48.210 --> 00:49:48.760\nwell and\n\n1205\n00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:49.920\ngoing through that.\n\n1206\n00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:55.110\nBut I can't imagine, you know, another company that gets the kind of glowing\n\n1207\n00:49:55.110 --> 00:49:56.120\nemails and positive\n\n1208\n00:49:56.120 --> 00:50:01.090\ncustomer reviews, like people are taking their time to write me about how much\n\n1209\n00:50:01.090 --> 00:50:01.640\njoy Sonos\n\n1210\n00:50:01.640 --> 00:50:02.640\nis bringing to them.\n\n1211\n00:50:02.640 --> 00:50:07.650\nI mean, I just could not be more grateful for the opportunity to receive those\n\n1212\n00:50:07.650 --> 00:50:07.960\nand for\n\n1213\n00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:09.160\nwhat we're building here.\n\n1214\n00:50:09.160 --> 00:50:12.470\nWell, I got to tell you, I couldn't be more grateful for the time you've taken\n\n1215\n00:50:12.470 --> 00:50:12.800\nout of\n\n1216\n00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:17.890\nwhat I know has to be an incredibly grueling schedule to have this podcast with\n\n1217\n00:50:17.890 --> 00:50:18.240\nme.\n\n1218\n00:50:18.240 --> 00:50:21.720\nYou know, our goal is to really help leaders learn from other great leaders.\n\n1219\n00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:24.200\nAnd there's lots of wisdom that you provided today.\n\n1220\n00:50:24.200 --> 00:50:25.960\nSo thank you very much, Patrick.\n\n1221\n00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:26.960\nI appreciate it.\n\n1222\n00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:27.960\nThanks, David.\n\n1223\n00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:36.560\nI really enjoyed it.\n\n1224\n00:50:36.560 --> 00:50:38.560\nCan you believe that?\n\n1225\n00:50:38.560 --> 00:50:41.400\nPatrick has his email on the company website.\n\n1226\n00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:43.360\nTalk about building a brand to last.\n\n1227\n00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:47.250\nHe's getting great insight from these customers and showing them how committed\n\n1228\n00:50:47.250 --> 00:50:47.960\nhe is to their\n\n1229\n00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:48.960\nsuccess.\n\n1230\n00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:50.520\nThat's fantastic.\n\n1231\n00:50:50.520 --> 00:50:54.540\nAnd now it's time for my favorite part of these podcast episodes where I get to\n\n1232\n00:50:54.540 --> 00:50:54.880\ngive\n\n1233\n00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:56.720\nyou a little coaching.\n\n1234\n00:50:56.720 --> 00:51:00.950\nThis week, as part of your weekly personal development plan, here's what I want\n\n1235\n00:51:00.950 --> 00:51:01.480\nyou to\n\n1236\n00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:02.560\ndo.\n\n1237\n00:51:02.560 --> 00:51:06.820\nThink about the key functions of your business and ask this simple question\n\n1238\n00:51:06.820 --> 00:51:07.680\nabout each one\n\n1239\n00:51:07.680 --> 00:51:08.680\nof them.\n\n1240\n00:51:08.680 --> 00:51:10.440\nAre they built to last?\n\n1241\n00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:14.930\nYour business strategy, your people capabilities, your products and services,\n\n1242\n00:51:14.930 --> 00:51:16.560\nyour key processes.\n\n1243\n00:51:16.560 --> 00:51:18.680\nAre they built to last?\n\n1244\n00:51:18.680 --> 00:51:22.830\nIf not, I'm going to give you marching orders for the next several months\n\n1245\n00:51:22.830 --> 00:51:23.600\nbecause I want\n\n1246\n00:51:23.600 --> 00:51:28.060\nyou to make the necessary changes to strengthen each part of your business so\n\n1247\n00:51:28.060 --> 00:51:29.080\nit's successful\n\n1248\n00:51:29.080 --> 00:51:30.480\nand sustainable.\n\n1249\n00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:32.560\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n1250\n00:51:32.560 --> 00:51:36.200\nWhat we learned today is that great leaders build to last.\n\n1251\n00:51:36.200 --> 00:51:40.010\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every\n\n1252\n00:51:40.010 --> 00:51:40.800\nThursday you\n\n1253\n00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:45.360\nget to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world.\n\n1254\n00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:49.220\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1255\n00:51:49.220 --> 00:51:50.000\napply to your\n\n1256\n00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:53.960\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1257\n00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:55.040\nI'll see you next week.\n\n1258\n00:51:55.040 --> 00:52:05.040\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n1259\n00:52:05.040 --> 00:52:15.040\n[BLANK_AUDIO]","

David Novak 0:03

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Patrick Spence, the CEO of Sonos. So many tech companies that build consumer products are set up in a way where they make their products obsolete, every time they launch a new product. The idea is that the minute the new devices available, their customers will abandon the old product and buy the newest model. But what's interesting is that Sonos has a very different strategy, they set out to build their products to last, they want their customers to have their products for a long, long time. It's a unique approach in their industry. But there's something about it, that core principle that ties in well, with the mark of a great leader, you see, the great leaders, I know, they build the last, they make decisions to keep the brand strong beyond just the present moment. They develop leaders in their organization. So there's always a pipeline of strong talent, when new opportunities arise. They treat their customers with dignity and respect, which breeds long term brand loyalty. I could go on and on, and what you're about to hear from Patrick Spence, and how he leads Sonos as their CEO, is that he's leading with this build the last approach in all aspects of the business. I can't wait for you to listen in. Here's my conversation with my friend, and soon to be yours, Patrick Spence.

Patrick, it's great to have you on the show.

Patrick Spence 1:57

It's great to be on David. I'm looking forward to the conversation. You know,

David Novak 2:00

I got to start out by congratulating I looked at your numbers, he just came off a great first quarter your businesses is on a roll 2022 was record revenues, record margins, you know, I can't wait to learn how you're doing it. But first, I'd like to hear you give us your snapshot of Sonos and how do you define the business?

Patrick Spence 2:17

Yeah, our ambition is to be the world's leading sound experience company. And so that means creating amazing products and services that bring amazing sound into the home. And now we've started to go beyond the home as well. So really, what we're trying to do is make sure that anywhere in your life, that you're enjoying sound, and that's a lot of places now with it being what I call in the golden age of audio, that we're there for you. And we're providing that sound and doing it in an easy way, in a high quality way, in a way that brings joy to everyone's life.

David Novak 2:48

Speaking of sound, you got a great voice. I mean, are you really interested in sound and music and all that? Did that kind of gets you really psyched up about going into Sonos?

Patrick Spence 2:56

Absolutely, you know, I think music really acts as a soundtrack for life. So you know, as you you hear certain songs, they trigger certain memories. And so music is such an important thing to be. But I will tell you a funny story on the voice side is, when I was in business school, we took presentation, lessons and courses, and we had an outside presenter. And when I got up there and presented, at the end of it, she was like, wow, she said, You must really love your father. And I was like, what, and she said, the people that have great voices and confident voices, and it's the men that do, it's a result of loving their fathers and having amazing fathers. And I'd never heard that before it, I thought it was the coolest thing ever. And I do love my dad, and I look up to him as a hero. And I thought that was super cool.

David Novak 3:45

That is cool. I love it. And I love how you're really transforming your business. And you know, you have great legacy products, but you're constantly innovating. And by the way, one of your great new products is the room my family absolutely loves it. It's it's a portable speaker for all of you out there that you can take wherever you want it to go. It's such a great idea. Tell me the story behind Rome and and how you developed it.

Patrick Spence 4:10

You know what we're thinking about the products and what we're doing it really like you hit it innovation is the key and the core, really to any business right in this day and age. And when I became CEO, I actually laid out an ambition for us to be introducing at least two new products every year. And that was a huge change from where we were because we had been shipping one product every few years. And we would, you know sometimes get caught up in making the perfect product at times. And we still toil over all the details. But we almost were doing a disservice to ourselves into the world by not actually shipping something. And so I really put this stake in the ground that we were going to unleash our talent and make sure that we're introducing at least two new products every year. Well as you can imagine. The other thing I did was say we're gonna go beyond the home and so that really started us down The road of both the move, which is a large portable product that we have in the room, that you talked about our ultra portable product, and getting into this idea of leaving the house, right, and being able to bring Sonos with you in other parts of your day and of your life. And so that meant bringing on some new expertise, expertise in Bluetooth expertise in battery life. And so we had to go higher and add those teams, we had to learn how to do things simultaneously. So we used to just work on one product, we started to work on simultaneous products, really spur the innovation. And so one of the other things that was important at that time, was trying to instill a bias to action inside the organization and saying, No, we can do this, and inspire the team to really, you know, take this action, and it meant working closely with the engineering leadership to say, how are we going to do this, right, it's not good enough to simply say, you know, we are going to do this and then disappear, it meant trying to make sure that we're prioritizing, understanding where products would fit. And we actually, in the midst of the pandemic, we actually changed our roadmap a little bit. And we prioritized Rome because, you know, we at that point, had felt like Rome would be the perfect product to company, the reopening of the economy. And people starting to leave the home and those kinds of things. So we got a little early in hindsight in terms of where it was. But we actually moved Rome ahead of another product, because we felt like it would be the right product at the right time. And that's always the conversations we're going through internally, is what's the right next product, as we think about what we want to build, we look at the whole audio landscape, and we look at people's lives and try to understand where are we not yet solving customer problems that we need to and with Rome, we knew that people wanted to take a Sonos product on the go and be able to carry that through on their backpack or their purse. And we said, Okay, we're gonna go solve that problem. We'll do it in a Sonos way, so that it's a great speaker when you're at home. And it's a great speaker when you're on the road. And that's what we were able to achieve with Rome,

David Novak 6:53

you certainly did that. And that's great, it's nice to be able to say which products coming next, that's a good position to be in understand, you basically are in about 15% of households, and your customers, on average, have three of your products in the home. And your goal is to go to four to six. Now, that's a big goal. And you've already talked about how you sort of changed the thinking of the company in terms of, you know, two products a year, how do you get the people that you lead to buy into that goal and own it for themselves?

Patrick Spence 7:23

I think it comes down to being very selective on who we bring into the organization. And when they come in, there's a couple things one is making sure they're aligned to the mission. And they're excited about the mission, right and want to go do this. And so we're in actually about 10% of the homes that we think we ultimately could be in, will do about $2 billion dollars in revenue this year, there's $89 billion that is sold every year in audio products. So we have a huge opportunity in front of us, and aligning with somebody that's coming into the organization that they see that opportunity, and they want to be part of that story. And their experience, you know, lends itself to actually being able to contribute to driving growth, thinking about new channels, thinking about new countries, thinking about new products, is critical. And then the other part of that conversation, when you're bringing them in is well, the culture we're trying to build. And I want to make sure that we are building a company that is adaptable, enduring and admired. Those are the things that we talk about internally. And so I've found that it's very important that upfront, we're having conversations about that and making sure that people are aligned to that before they come in the door. And then when when they're here, we are incredibly transparent. So even though we're a public company, we share our roadmap and all of our plans with everybody across the company. And we do that because the reason people are here is because they are passionate about and get excited about our products. And we want to make sure they can see that they see the future. They see what's coming. They get excited about it. And once you have that, it's not too hard to get people rally to go and bring these products to market. And everybody inside the company is just really proud to work here. Because anybody they bump into that they tell work, they work at Sonos, they'll say Sonos, I have Sonos. I love it, you know, and that's something that's pretty special. In this day and age, there's not a lot of companies out there that you can say that necessarily, you know, your parents or your friends or family members, we actually know what it is that you build right at the products that you're making. And so it's kind of like a combination of all of those things that come together to create the amazing culture that we have here.

David Novak 9:24

You know, we recently had the CEO of Adobe Shantanu, Narayen. He was on and I think anybody would say Adobe is a very innovative company, and he hates the word failure. How do you look at failure,

Patrick Spence 9:37

two things shaped by life. One is technology and the other sports. And so certainly, you know, losing is not something that, you know, I really take to hate it, in fact, but at the same time, it depends when you think about failure in the sense of, you know, maybe if it's not permanent, it's a moment for potential learning and understanding. And so, I do think that there are Things You can learn, and there are risks that you need to take right in order to try and stretch yourself. And it might lead to failure in a particular area, I think it's our job as CEO is to make sure that we're not hurting the organization as a whole in a position where it might fail. You know, you want to be creating areas for the company and the people that take risks and potentially fail. But if they fail, are you learning from it? Can you continue to move forward as an organization? I actually think that's critically important. And I think fear of failure can actually hold you back sometimes. So I think, calculated risk taking is important to making sure that you're really pushing what you're capable of, and innovating, quite frankly.

David Novak 10:40

Yeah, I think you and Shanu are aligned on it. He just thinks that failure is something you have to embrace because it comes with the territory of being an innovative company, you don't, you know, I found one of the ways that frees up people, as a leader in an innovative culture, like what you have is to talk about the risks that you've personally taken that didn't work out, can you share one of your risks that in your, you know, I don't know if we want to call it a failure or not, but you know, a time where it just didn't work out the way you thought it should? Or would?

Patrick Spence 11:08

Well, I'll tell you, so really, I've worked at two companies. I've been fortunate to be part of two incredible technology stories, one Blackberry, and the second Sonos. And when I was at Blackberry, we had a really important moment, when we needed to pivot the organization, in my opinion, to something called BlackBerry Messenger, it was an opportunity at that point to grow something that was leading the world, we had 80 million daily active users in BlackBerry Messenger. At this time, the only other messaging solution was WhatsApp at 5 million daily active users. And we had the opportunity to take BlackBerry Messenger and run it on iOS, Android desktops and make it the standard in the industry and probably take that 80 million and grow it into hundreds of millions of people using a messaging service that people love to at least 80 million were using on a daily active basis and absolutely loved. And I was unable to convince the organization that that was the right decision and pivot to make and give up some of the hardware that was associated with Blackberry. Because at this point, if you wanted to be on BlackBerry Messenger, you had to get a Blackberry phone. But at that point, as well, Blackberry phones were falling behind. And in my opinion, at that point, we'd already, you know, begun to lose the race against iOS and Android. And so we really needed to make this shift in order for us to continue and move forward. And it was classic innovators dilemma and not being able to, you know, give up the revenue stream and that business of what we built in the past the hardware to be able to make that shift into the services and a cross platform messaging service. And, you know, I think if we were able to do that, we would have been able to navigate the future in a much different way. I think BlackBerry would still be around more relevant, it wouldn't be known for phones, but it might be known as the standard messaging platform that's out there. And so I do look back, particularly given I grew up inside the company, and I'm a proud Canadian, and it's a Canadian company, as the inability for me to convince the right people, Blackberry to make that shift is probably, you know, the biggest failure of my career.

David Novak 13:20

When you think about that, what would you have done differently, looking back and having a little bit more wisdom, as you think about, you know, leadership,

Patrick Spence 13:26

probably taking it as far as the board. And I didn't do that, at that point, I think I could have been even more vigilant in pitching this and laying out my vision for where the future was, and wasn't and really pushing harder than I did, I think I could have taken it, you know, to another level. So as a result of that, you know, I make sure that each person on my leadership team has a relationship with at least one of our board members, and they have a trusted relationship over time, because maybe there will come a time that somebody on my team, you know, needs to I'm not listening, right, and maybe I can't see what they can see. And they, you know, they need to, you know, talk to the board and they need to potentially do something game changing that I'm not going to see and so I try as a learning from that to create a situation and governance where the right things will happen. You know, no matter who is in the COC, you got

David Novak 14:25

to be really secure to do that. If you always spend that secure in your yourself that where you'd say, hey, I want you to know, my board members. You know, most CEOs like to control that board, like they've got an absolute lock and key.

Patrick Spence 14:37

No, I have definitely not been that secure all the way along. And I think when I was first starting out as a leader, I was trying to emulate too many other people, right, where you read all these books about, you know, business legends, and you're watching the You know, the founders and the CEO is at Blackberry and you are taking your cues from those individuals. And so I do think over my career Now and a big part of this, I would say is the founder of Sonos, who was the one that handed the reins to me, John MacFarlane, you know, just in leading from a more authentic place of who I am. And look, this is why I go back to sports is because I grew up playing a lot of team sports and ending up in a position where I was leading a lot of those teams and a lot of underdog teams, quite frankly, and having a lot of success. And it's those lessons and how to rally people and bring people together. And that's kind of my superpower is bringing, you know, a group of people together and achieving something that no one thought possible, maybe even those people. And so for me, I think I've really come into my own authentic leadership at Sonos, thanks to John and the team, you know, that has predated me and then as well, our board, quite frankly, David, we have an incredible and very supportive board. And I think they enable me to create a situation. And a culture that really is open is transparent. And, you know, I'm really trying to lead in an authentic way, and try to do the best thing for Sonos. And I think it's been a long journey to get there. But that is where I am today. And I just think that, you know, it's good for the people on my team, it's good for the board to have those connections. And we're a better company as a result of it.

David Novak 16:18

You know, you mentioned, you're a Canadian, and you talked about your love for sports coming up as a kid. Can you tell us a story from your childhood that really shaped the kind of leader that you are today? You know, a specific example. You'll just always remember?

Patrick Spence 16:32

Yeah, so in high school, I switched high schools. And I was big into basketball. So even though I'm Canadian, I'm not the traditional Canadia that just played hockey. I played a little hockey when I was young, but I focused on basketball and volleyball, in fact. And so, in high school, I met a coach John Thrasher, who was absolutely incredible leader, super tough coach, and he talks about us being a band, we have different roles. And you know, I think he said, I play the tuba that we had somebody else that was a better shooter that was the lead singer and going through that. And I'd never really thought about the team in that way. But together, right, we would make beautiful music, and go through it. And we were a team that was not very big, I was our center, and I'm six foot four. And so we weren't the most athletic team. But we really acted as a team, I'm still great friends with, you know, five or six players from that team, all the starters. And so we were able to come together through, you know, some great coaching and motivation, but also like that teamwork and friendship, to win what in the United States, I guess, would be considered our regional and upset a couple of teams that were much more talented than we were and go to, you know, our provincial finals, which was huge for us in our year. And I really look back on that as a pivotal moment. And understanding the power of people playing their roles, I was quite good at defense and rebounding. So that's where I would focus. And then we had somebody that was really good at shooting, and we had somebody that was really good at defending on the perimeter. So it defend the breast guard, and everybody playing those roles so that we could win as a team, and the power of that, and we were all very different personalities as well. So it was such a fascinating life experience to go through that. And it's been something that I think about a lot. And I had a chance to coach later on as well, when I was in university, coached some teams. And I certainly brought that to bear. And I really think every day, a lot of what I put to work is from what I learned in sports, you know,

David Novak 18:25

you mentioned that you're Canadian, and I love Canada, I love your country, and I love the people in Canada, you're really known for being really nice guys. Do you put yourself in that category?

Patrick Spence 18:38

I do. I think most people that know me would say that I'm pretty nice person. But I also probably unlike many Canadians, I'm also very competitive. So I would say that I'm abnormally competitive for a Canadian. And I think there were a number of us like that at Blackberry. And it's why we were able to build the company into the one that it became. And so yeah, I am pretty relentless. I'm pretty competitive. And those are not typical Canadian traits.

David Novak 19:07

So you're nice, but you're really, really competitive. So you're no Mr. Nice Guy, you know, tell us a story of where you really had to engage in some very significant productive conflict.

Patrick Spence 19:19

Probably the most conflicted would be so at Sonos we partner with, but we also compete with all of the biggest technology companies in the world. And many of your listeners will probably know that. At one point, it reached a point with one of those partners slash competitors, Google, where I had to make the decision to actually sue them for patent infringement, and also testify in front of Congress in terms of some of their behavior. And so that being a innovative small technology company in the United States, taking on one of the largest, most powerful companies in the world, that probably tells you a lot about what I'm willing to do. to stand up for what I believe are the rights and the inventions of the little guy, quite frankly. And so that is probably the most public and prominent example of me, you know, being willing to stand up and embrace conflict. At the end of the day,

David Novak 20:16

when you got great products, like you have big people like Google, they're gonna try to rip you off. I mean, there's no doubt about it in on, you had the courage to take on the big guy, when you're going through that process. As a leader, did you have any sleepless nights on that me you ultimately win. But did you have any sleepless nights along the way, or just business as usual,

Patrick Spence 20:36

you know, as a leader, many sleepless nights, it is the loneliest job in the world, I have an incredible wife, who's a social worker and an amazing support. I have incredible boards that are great and supportive, and an amazing sounding board in those situations. But there's many sleepless nights when you're dealing with decisions that impact people's livelihoods that take on big decisions that can distract an organization. In some cases, one of the things I'm most proud of is, we didn't lose any of our innovation pace, you know, while we took on Google, so we continue to introduce at least two new products every year. So you know, you want to keep the organization focused. But all of those things went into my mind the money associated, you know, we're not a huge ly profitable organization. And so the investment that it requires, is that better spent somewhere else, there's a lot of those things that you think about late at night, and you know, you have to process and then you have to process in the light of day you do with yourself, you do with people you trust, and then you make a call and you stand behind it and and you adapt as necessary, right. I think that's the other thing is there's some situations where you might have to adjust right, and from what you learn, and from what you you hear and what happens. And so I think being open to that, as well as pretty important as a leader, but as you know, many sleepless nights.

David Novak 21:53

What role do you think that independent small midsize tech companies have in American innovation?

Patrick Spence 21:59

This is why I've testified in front of Congress why I believe that it's harmful to society that more and more power gets concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, is that I think society would be much better off with many more independent smaller businesses employing a lot of Americans, we have half the number of public companies we did 20 years ago. I mean, we could do with a lot more innovation, a lot of different perspectives, more diversity out there, stronger balance in the country, so we're not so coastally, heavy, if you will, if we were able to create the conditions to have more and more small and medium sized businesses and really see them thrive. And I worry, I worry about the future of innovation, I worry about the ability for startups to really thrive in a world where, you know, there's a few companies that really dominate and acquire companies, you know, along the way to try and reduce competition and some of those things. And that's why I've been trying to stand for innovation and competition. And I just think, David, we would be a much more vibrant country, if we had a lot more small and medium sized businesses.

David Novak 23:07

Well, I really appreciate your passion and noble cause for that effort. I think it takes a lot of guts to stand up for something like that and put your neck out there. You know, you mentioned your wife earlier, and I got to ask you this, I want to find out if this is really true. You said she's fairly supportive. And I know she must be because is it true that after you got married, you moved your wife to Australia, basically, one week, after you got married, how in the world, you pull that off.

Patrick Spence 23:38

My wife is probably more adventurous than be and thankfully, you know, even more understanding that I had. So she saw it as an adventure. Her best friend, thankfully was actually living in Australia, if you can believe that or not. And she saw that I had a great career opportunity, which was to really open Asia Pacific for BlackBerry as well. And so we sat down, we had that conversation, and she has just been incredible. We had our first child in Australia, you know, like halfway around the world. It's just amazing to think about, we moved back to Canada after a couple of years in Australia. And then an opportunity came up to go lead the BlackBerry business in Europe, Middle East Africa and London. And there, my wife was again saying, yeah, like, let's go, you know, let's go have this adventure as a family. And then when it was time, you know, and I was worried about joining Sonos and leaving blackberry and we're living in London, then it was okay, there's this company that's just starting up in Santa Barbara, California. And again, Erin was there to say if you think this is the right thing to do, you know, for our family, then we're up for the challenge and she has been so understanding and influential and such a strong partner, you know, in all of this, I could not be more grateful. She really is just an amazing person and, and I would not be the leader I am today without her influence.

David Novak 24:56

I feel the same way about my wife Wendy, and you're a true global exec At Vemma, you've traveled the world with us mention Asia, Pacific, Middle East, North Africa, Europe, you know, tell us a story about an experience that taught you the most, from your international days,

Patrick Spence 25:11

the thing I've taken away, you know, having worked in probably 4050 countries specifically at this point, I will tell you, the thing that surprised me the most being a Canadian who had never traveled outside Canada and the United States, before I went and started opening the Asia Pacific region for Blackberry, was the fact that we're much more similar, you know, then different to anybody in any country. What I found, David is, most people, when it comes down to it, you know, are trying to build a great life with their family, and I got to meet a lot of amazing people and their families and build a career, right, you know, and do a good job, if you will, going through it. And those two things, you know, really stood out for me, as I think about people. And I think about sometimes the differences that we see, or we are perceived to have, you know, country to country, region to region, is the biggest thing to me was landing in all these different places, meeting all these different people, and realizing, you know, what, we're all largely trying to do the same things, do a good job, raise a family, you know, have a good life. And if we can remember that, and stay focused on that, I think we could maybe reduce some of the conflict and the tension that's out there. But I'll tell you my first experience, and it just blew my mind. First time I was in Hong Kong was to launch Blackberry. And we hadn't launched in any Asian countries at that point. And we were doing it with canning Fogg, who was leading Hutchison, and he was basically a celebrity there. And so we turn up in this giant ballroom, in Hong Kong, he arrives on a speedboat across the harbour, and he walks in, and there must have been 50 photographers, like taking pictures of him, like he's a celebrity basically coming to present on the stage. And he presents the talks about how just remember your BlackBerry to Hong Kong. And there I am, you know, at that point, 26, I want to say, you know, first time ever in Hong Kong, turns it over to me to present about BlackBerry in front of all this media, all these people in this massive exhibition hall. And then I started to go through the BlackBerry story and some of those and I just, I look back on that, and it was like, wow, and you realize, like, sometimes, okay, like, Here I am, and you just got to own it, and present and go through it. But there were a few moments like that, where you pinch yourself when we were launching in India, and there was a Bollywood star there, and she was incredible and gorgeous. And they're like, all the attention there. And then here's Patrick to talk about Blackberry. These surreal situations that you just kind of are like, Okay, this is strange, but I'm gonna go with it.

David Novak 28:01

I love it, you know? And so your BlackBerry for 14 years, you obviously had a lot of love for the company. What was it like watching BlackBerry's ultimate demise? And what did you learn from it that you've tried to keep front and center as you lead Sonos?

Patrick Spence 28:16

You know, I put those lessons to work every day, I think it's the reason that I'm in a healthy way paranoid, as well about the importance of innovation and culture and some of these things. If you would have caught me, David, I would have bled Blackberry, you know, both as a Canadian, and then somebody who was there, I joined when there were 150 people, virtually no revenue, and we took that to 70,000 people and 20 billion in revenue. My last year, man, I played an instrumental role in making that happen that I'm still very proud of. But a couple things that really happened there, I feel that are the reason that it is where it is today. And the first is, when Apple introduced the iPhone, we got overly focused on responding to the iPhone and Apple. Verizon wrote us a ginormous check to create the response to the iPhone, it was called the Blackberry Storm, our first touchscreen product. And we launched that. And over the course of a weekend, we almost threw away 10 years of hard work in building up everything BlackBerry stood for because the product was not good. It was not reliable. We'd rushed it to market as this response based on the pressure from both Apple competitively and then Verizon, instead of building our own, you know, response. And so I'll tell you how that directly related to Sonos when Amazon and Google brought out their smart speakers that were $25. And our speakers would range from 200 to $1,000. And there were people inside the company saying, we need to rush out at $25 Speaker. I said, that's exactly what we're not going to do. We are not going to respond. We are going to build the next set of best Sonos products, you know, and we're going to take advantage of some of the services that they're offering because those are valuable to customers. But you know, our future is not copying what somebody else is doing and selling it a lot. So for instance, and then the other big lesson, I think, is the classic notion that what you do today may not be what you need to be doing for the next, you know, five years from now, 10 years from now. And so that story I was telling you about BlackBerry Messenger, where I think we really needed to pivot and open up BlackBerry Messenger was something that I think about every day, and it has directly translated into a relationship we have at Sonos with IKEA, where we actually take Sonos inside of IKEA products, and you still use the Sonos app. But IKEA has embedded Sonos, and some of our sound inside a lamp inside a bookshelf speaker, because, you know, a lot of our magic is the software and what we've built and the whole experience. And so I've used that as an opportunity to teach the organization that, hey, we may need to think about other ways to really build our business and our company as we think about the future. And so those are two specific, you know, big examples that I think I put to work every single day.

David Novak 30:58

I think it's really cool what you're doing with IKEA. That's really, really smart thinking. And so he joined Somis in 2012, five years later, you become the CEO, was becoming CEO, always the goal for you. One of

Patrick Spence 31:11

our early investors tells a story about sitting with me early on maybe like a year into Sonos, and me saying I absolutely want to be a CEO someday. And he told me and I'd say said, No one's ever said that to him. And he always thought it was weird. But I kind of felt like, you know, this, it'll sound strange as a Canadian, but it's probably the competitive thing. But it's also I think, my experience from team sports. I kind of felt like it was something I was destined to do. And maybe not specifically CEO, but just leadership in general and leading a team, but it's kind of where I ended up with most sports teams. It was kind of the trajectory I was on at Blackberry. And then when I joined Sonos, I knew the founder, John, you know, we had had open conversations that he wasn't going to do the job forever. And so it was something that I was interested in. I was always curious about. And I'm just so grateful. I've had the opportunity to actually take on the role and see what it's all about here at Sonos,

David Novak 32:02

you know, when you're having the big company meeting. You sound to me, like one of those guys who just can't wait to get up there and give the big speech? Do you feel like the organization is needing you? And how do you feel I always crave that. I mean, I don't mind a minute, how about you,

Patrick Spence 32:18

I love it. But I'll tell you, I got some interesting feedback through the pandemic, which was that we shifted. So we would do typically an all hands meeting, either once a month prior to the pandemic, and I would stand up on a stage here in Santa Barbara, and it would be broadcast around the world and our people here would be in person. And I would say I got good reviews, it fired me up, for sure. But the interesting thing that I heard during the pandemic was I shifted the cadence. So we went to weekly, all hands, just so that we could keep communications high, right, because there was a lot of uncertainty, I wanted to make sure people had the support they needed. And I was communicating pretty frequently. And I got a lot of positive feedback on presenting from my home office sitting down in a little more casual environment of it seeming much more authentic and much less like the CEO you all expect to see on the stage versus Patrick the person and, you know, human leader that actually people needed to see in the pandemic. So it was fascinating to me to get that feedback kind of through this and it's made me think in terms of the way that I show up and how I make sure that there's almost like that presentation mode versus you know, just trying to make sure that I'm being authentic and you know, being kind of relaxed, maybe a little bit more and a little bit more, you know, natural in terms of that versus going into this presentation mode and try to nail it and you know, when the presentation to some degree when those hearts and minds I find it energizing, I absolutely do. And the crazy thing is I am an introvert but I find that very energizing to speak to the whole company and be able to tell our story. And we have such great people. So I just love it. I love it.

David Novak 33:57

You know, you mentioned you work on showing up the right way. Do you have any daily rituals that you do to show up?

Patrick Spence 34:03

I do. The most important daily ritual for me is I get up at five in the morning, I get hydrated, I have a coffee start to get ready for the day. And then I hit the beach at 5:30am. And I work out on the beach here in Santa Barbara with an amazing group of people. We lift sandbags, we run sand sprints, we do some pretty crazy stuff. But I have found it incredibly powerful to start the day with physical activity on the beach, you know, watch the sunrise breed that fresh air here the waves crashing. And that puts me in a frame of mind that I feel like allows me to be a better husband, father and leader because I'm ready to take on the day I've done that it's under my belt. I have the energy from that. And it allows me to pull any of the challenges and you know this from your past like all the daily crises that come up, be able to put those in perspective and deal with those in the way that I want to deal with them right which is in a calm collected, you know, kind of calculated way. And that has been something that is incredibly important and I think made me just a better person.

David Novak 35:08

Patrick, you've moved up organizations you've taken on more and more responsibility had more and more people working for you more and more people that you're accountable for, as you've taken on more and more responsibility, what was the biggest personal leadership challenge you had?

Patrick Spence 35:23

You know, I think the the biggest mistake that I made was in my career at Blackberry, I felt like the number of people reporting to me and the number of things I could be involved in, you know, was a sign of strength versus thinking about the kind of team I'm building and how I'm supporting the team. And so I'll take you back to when I left Blackberry. I think at the last moment, I had 21 direct reports. And I was trying to be involved in every major deal that we were doing as leading our sales and marketing globally. And in hindsight, I thought that was a show of strength. And I was a great leader as a result that I wasn't because I wasn't giving those leaders the kind of support that they needed. I wasn't empowering them. And I wasn't leveraging myself in that way. I was way too involved. And so John, and really, my experience at Sonos and some of the board members here helped me understand that is not, you know, the key to being successful in it, it wasn't going to enable me to really rise to the next level of leadership, not as a little bit leadership by brute force and ego, quite frankly, you know, here, I've taken a much different approach. And I would say to a person, all the leaders on my team here, are much better at their area. And really, in terms of my weekly one to one with them, they have the agenda. And my question is, how do I support you? What can I do to help and that is why I am here, if I am successful, I'm making very few decisions, and I am helping those people on my team be successful. And that's the way I look at it now. And really, I think the test of any leader, particularly CEOs is where is the organization, you know, 10 or 20 years after you leave. And that is what I think about every day. And I think about my team in that way, I think about our next generation of leaders. And that way I think about recruiting in that way. And am I you know, setting up the team and the leaders so that one of them can step into this role when my time is done, and that we're building the capabilities in the organization to adapt as necessary so that we can be one of those companies that endures. You know,

David Novak 37:21

Patrick, as I was learning about your company, it seems to me that Sonos has a very unique approach to technology, most technology companies want to obsolete their products, so that you have to buy new ones, you want your products to last, walk me through the journey of arriving at that kind of strategy. And why do you think it's an enduring strategy?

Patrick Spence 37:43

It is so counter to everything in consumer electronics, like you said, most companies are, quote, unquote, refreshing their products every year, and they're trying to get you to buy new ones. And they're not investing in those components. You know, both John, our founder and myself having done large companies before and built something of scale. And I would say importance, we decided that building something for the long term and enduring is something we wanted to do. Because too many companies are built for the short term, maybe to sell or to go public. And then you know, they kind of lose their way. And so that goes right down to the product that we wanted to build and thinking about how we build something that lasts for a long time. And what our hypothesis was, and this has played out, it's taken a while we've been shipping products, since 2005. At this point, is that those customers would be loyal to Sonos if we're loyal to them and creating better experiences over time. And so we are very proud of the fact that we create products that lasts the longest of any consumer electronics products out there. And it's paid off in the sense that customers have come back and added more over time. And that is also a business model that is very different than any ones that's out there. We don't want customers to upgrade their product every year replace, or what have you. What we look at is, how many additional products have you added to your home. And as you mentioned, you know, now we're up to an average of three products per home. We're fortunate enough to have some people that have you know, 30 Sonos products in their home, I really think that the maximum of what we can have as an average of people's homes is really just a figment of our imagination, like what products can we come up with as we think about that life and sound throughout your life, right and throughout your day. And so it's really been a philosophical thing to try and build amazing products that lasts for a long time, because it's something we would want as consumers, it's something we think is better for the environment. And so it's just something that's been important to us. And I think when you're hiring for that, when you're thinking in that way, it can't help but influence also the kind of people that you're attracting to your culture. And so I think that helps in trying to build a company as well that's enduring.

David Novak 39:53

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Patrick Spence in just a moment, creating products that are built to last us Something another great leader keeps Top of Mind Scott Mahoney, the Chairman and CEO of Peter malarkey.

Scott Mahoney 40:06

It's not about margin, it's doing it right. It's controlling distribution, it's doing the right things, it's treating your customers, right, making your products great. And having integrity in your company and in your products.

David Novak 40:20

If you're enjoying this conversation with Patrick Spence, I just know you're going to learn a lot from my interview with Scott as well. Go back and listen to episode 59, with Scott Mahoney here on how leaders lead. You've mentioned culture more than once in this conversation, and I can tell you're really passionate about that. Give us an example of how you personally champion the culture, you want to see what are those behaviors that you want to see in your company that you purposely recognize and reinforce every day.

Patrick Spence 40:54

So respect, transparency, ownership and collaboration are the ones that we're very focused in on. And so probably the most important thing is actually measuring the people on my team and all of the managers in the organization on those. So half of your performance review is what did you achieve? And half is how did you achieve it, and we use 360s, we use our employee surveys to see how we're doing in terms of living up to those behaviors. And so we put a pretty rigorous system in place to actually make sure we're living up to them. Because it's, you know, you've seen this a million times, right? It's easy to say these words, we actually put examples of what it means and what it doesn't mean, into documentation that we share with the organization. And I lead that session. And so there's a session that a video now for all new employees that walks through the behaviors and what it means and what it doesn't. And that comes from me, because it does start with me. And I think about how I show up in those ways, and work through it. And that's very important to me that I live to those behaviors, as we call them internally. And then, you know, looking at my review with the board, and then the review for everybody on my team and all the managers, like I said, we make sure that we're living up to those. And that I think is important, because that is what enables you to walk the talk,

David Novak 42:10

I have to tell you, my ears kind of perked up. But I heard you say that cultural fit is a misnomer, that you're not a big fan of the idea of cultural fit. Explain.

Patrick Spence 42:20

Yeah, no, I think that's a huge misnomer. And I think it's what's led to a lack of diversity in organizations as well. What we're looking for in every hire is cultural evolution. If you are not evolving in this day and age, you know, and heading in the right direction and getting better every day you are dying. And companies out there need to recognize that. And so every new hire needs to contribute to the culture and help push the culture into the future and in a new direction, versus just fit in with the thing that worked yesterday, right? And so we're always looking for that cultural evolution as we think about our next hires.

David Novak 42:56

I've also heard you say that everything you say as a CEO has outsized impact, give us an example of where you might have learned that the hard way?

Patrick Spence 43:05

Well, I think the they won't tell me the ones where like, it's pretty used as a hammer, if you will. But I remember at rim there were many where you'd be sitting in a meeting, and somebody said, Well, Mike, or Jim, because we had co CEOs, Mike or Jim said this right? You know, and it was something crazy, you know, they said this and like, you know, and I would hear it and be like, but if we did that, like that would, you know, be the wrong thing for the customer for the business? And so I'm sitting there going, they wouldn't, and I knew both of them know, well enough to know. And so I would often because I'm, you know, again, probably just like a little bit more determined than most I would weigh in and say, well, they may have said that, but that's not what they meant in terms of like, then people be like, oh, you know, what do you mean? Who are you to interpret what they say actually said this. And so I'm just careful about where I show up. And what I say. And I'm pretty thoughtful in terms of how I do that. But I've actually said to my team, and I've said to the broader company at times, if you heard that use, I've actually said this, if you hear my name used in that way, and you don't think it's the right thing. Like, please make a better decision or like if you you know, flag it to me or something like that. And of course, you know, it's never perfect. I'm sure it gets used here and there. But I remember that being such a, you know, such kind of like a hammer used on certain things to reduce debate or, you know, kind of push through something that seemed silly, and I wouldn't let it happen. And I hope we're building a culture where certainly when my name gets taken advantage doesn't you know, just pass through, that's for sure.

David Novak 44:33

You know, this has been so much fun. And I'd like to have a little bit more with you, Patrick, if you don't mind with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready for this?

Patrick Spence 44:41

I'm ready, fire away.

David Novak 44:42

What are the three words that best describe you?

Patrick Spence 44:45

Humble, loyal, and I hope indomitable.

David Novak 44:51

If you could be one person for a day, who would it be beside yourself?

Patrick Spence 44:55

There's two on this right? Because there's got to be a business and a sports angle. And so on the business side I I'd love to be Tim Cook just to see the operations of an amazing product company at that scale right at scale that society has never seen before. But on the sports side, I'd have to say Nick nurse, the amazing coach of the Toronto Raptors, just to see how he brings all those personalities together and gets them to play together as a unit. I think that would be amazing.

David Novak 45:18

Your biggest pet peeves.

Patrick Spence 45:22

undisciplined people,

David Novak 45:24

your favorite Canadian band?

Patrick Spence 45:26

Oh, The Tragically Hip

David Novak 45:28

on a scale of one to 10 rate the 2022 Super Bowl halftime show.

Patrick Spence 45:34

Oh, 10 out of 10 they rocked it. That was amazing.

David Novak 45:39

Do you play any instruments?

Patrick Spence 45:41

I do not.

David Novak 45:42

What's one thing that only a Canadian would know about Canada?

Patrick Spence 45:48

What a tuk is?

David Novak 45:50

And what's a Duke?

Patrick Spence 45:52

I think many Americans call it a beanie.

David Novak 45:55

You go. And what's what's one thing about you that few people would know.

Patrick Spence 46:01

I was with Paris Hilton the night before she went to jail.

David Novak 46:06

And we'll leave it at that. Okay. And what would one piece of advice be you'd give to anyone who wants to improve as a leader,

Patrick Spence 46:14

be authentic?

David Novak 46:17

You mentioned I think that you want to be adaptable, enduring and admired as a company and I understand the adaptable I understand enduring. Why admired? Why is that so important to you is a trait that you want Sonos to have,

Patrick Spence 46:33

because it's a reflection of whether we're building something that people care about, quite frankly, you know, and that they see, and they admire the craftsmanship of what it is that we're building. And that's that's important to me, that's important. All the people at Sonos

David Novak 46:47

Patrick, I've just written a book called take charge, review how self coaching can transform your life and career. And I've learned over the years that you know, really great leaders like yourself, you're really good at self coaching, you're really good at assessing yourself and figuring out where you need to go next. How do you self coach? What's your process for really saying, Okay, this is how I'm going to take Patrick to the next level.

Patrick Spence 47:09

So I consume an incredible amount of, you know, reading and podcasts about what other leaders are doing. And I'm trying to learn all the time. So I am a voracious consumer of content around what the best leaders are doing, to try and pick up tips here and there, and then having conversations with both my team and the board, and anybody I can. So what I've found, which is really interesting to me is most of the CEOs out there are willing to take a call right from another CEO, and just have a conversation about challenges they're going through and these kinds of things. And so I've never really found that having, like one individual mentor has worked for me. And so instead, what I've done is basically try to learn something or pick something up from every single person that I interact with, you know, regardless of where they are in the organization, regardless of whether they're CEO or not. And so for me, just trying to be curious and learn and get better over time picking up things from people I work out with in the morning, from anybody that you know, we happen to come across in social situations, and just trying to understand their story and learn something from them. I think you'd be surprised where you can pick those things up. And of course, a podcast like yours, and many of the different podcasts and books that are out there today, everything is out there that will allow you to kind of learn and figure out the way that you should be thinking about yourself, and maybe how you can get better, as well. And then in that early morning period, I do a little bit more reflection before I work out typically. And so I'm generally reflecting and doing a little bit of gratitude to just in terms of how fortunate I am but also reflecting on, you know, the way I showed up yesterday and the way I hope to show up today.

David Novak 48:42

One last question. You're you're highly reputed for being a what I would call a customer maniac. I mean, you are focused on your consumers, you want to know what makes them tick. What do you do that is unique on that front as a leader?

Patrick Spence 48:56

Yeah, I mean, my email is available on our website. And so I get emails from customers all the time, you know, good and bad. And I will tell you the number of emails I get from customers talking about how much they love their Sonos and the way it's helped, you know, a family member that was suffering, you know, actually get through and people in the pandemic having challenges or dance party for a young family. I mean, just these incredible stories that people share with me are so powerful, and I share those then with the rest of the company too. And I've gotten more feedback on sharing those customer stories with people internally, man, how positive is for them because you know, day to day you're grinding through like a lot of different challenges, right, but to give the organization a chance to hear the stories from our customers of how slowness is bringing joy to their life and how it's impacting them. It's so powerful. Of course, I'm getting you know, lots of customer care and support asks as well and go through that. But I can't imagine you know, another company that gets the kind of glowing emails and positive customer reviews like people are taking their time to write me a About how much joy Sonos is bringing to them. I mean, I just could not be more grateful for the opportunity to receive those. And for what we're building here. Well, I

David Novak 50:09

gotta tell you, I couldn't be more grateful for the time you've taken out of what I know, it has to be an incredibly grueling schedule to have this podcast with me. You know, our goal is to really help leaders learn from other great leaders. And there's lots of wisdom that you provided today. So thank you very much, Patrick. Appreciate it.

Patrick Spence 50:26

Thanks, David. I've really enjoyed it.

David Novak 50:36

Can you believe that Patrick has his email on the company website, talking about building a brand last, he's getting great insight from these customers and showing them how committed he is to their success? That's fantastic. And now it's time for my favorite part of these podcast episodes, where I get to give you a little coaching this week, as part of your weekly personal development plan. Here's what I want you to do. Think about the key functions of your business and ask this simple question about each one of them. Are they built to last? Your business strategy, your people capabilities, your products and services, your key processes? Are they built to last? If not, I'm going to give you marching orders for the next several months, because I want you to make the necessary changes to strengthen each part of your business. So it's successful and sustainable. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is that great leaders build the last. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. I'll see you next week.

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