[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_137":-5,"_138":-5,"_139":140,"_141":142,"_143":144},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":18,"_19":20,"_21":-5,"_22":23,"_24":25,"_26":27,"_28":29,"_30":31,"_32":33,"_34":35,"_36":37,"_38":39,"_40":41,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":-5,"_45":46,"_47":-5,"_48":49,"_50":51,"_52":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/2251/prepare-listen-and-ask-questions","id",2251,"title","Prepare, listen, and ask questions","subtitle","Three pieces of advice for aspiring leaders","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.370\nI would suggest that whenever they go into a situation, any situation,\n\n2\n00:00:07.370 --> 00:00:08.880\ninterview, job\n\n3\n00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:13.510\ninterview, discussion group, that they do their homework before going into the\n\n4\n00:00:13.510 --> 00:00:14.760\nsituation.\n\n5\n00:00:14.760 --> 00:00:18.740\nIf they're meeting with someone, you know, there's no excuse not to know who\n\n6\n00:00:18.740 --> 00:00:19.520\nyou're meeting\n\n7\n00:00:19.520 --> 00:00:22.200\nwith and why you're meeting with them.\n\n8\n00:00:22.200 --> 00:00:25.400\nSo be knowledgeable, be prepared.\n\n9\n00:00:25.400 --> 00:00:31.100\nThe other thing is to be open, be prepared to listen and to have an objective\n\n10\n00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:31.840\nwhen you\n\n11\n00:00:31.840 --> 00:00:36.370\nlisten that if you're going to ask questions, make certain that you have\n\n12\n00:00:36.370 --> 00:00:37.280\nlistened, that\n\n13\n00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:41.960\nyou've gained enough information that you believe you know what it is you want\n\n14\n00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:42.240\nfrom\n\n15\n00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:45.120\na particular meeting and then ask questions.\n\n16\n00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:48.020\nDo not be afraid to ask questions.\n\n17\n00:00:48.020 --> 00:00:51.920\nEven sometimes what might seem to be a dumb question.\n\n18\n00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:55.190\nYou know, one of my mentors, my first one at Kaiser Center, he told me, \"I'm\n\n19\n00:00:55.190 --> 00:00:55.360\ngoing\n\n20\n00:00:55.360 --> 00:00:59.270\nto be that one of the things I want you to do is never be afraid to ask what\n\n21\n00:00:59.270 --> 00:01:00.040\nyou consider\n\n22\n00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:01.640\nto be the dumb question.\"\n\n23\n00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:06.920\nAnd he said, \"I know that, you know, that women and African Americans tend to\n\n24\n00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:07.400\nthink\n\n25\n00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:10.590\nthat if they ask a question that seems to be a dumb when people look down on\n\n26\n00:01:10.590 --> 00:01:11.080\nthem,\"\n\n27\n00:01:11.080 --> 00:01:13.720\nhe said, \"Don't fall into that trap.\"\n\n28\n00:01:13.720 --> 00:01:18.330\nAnd so it's very important not to fall into the trap of not wanting to ask the\n\n29\n00:01:18.330 --> 00:01:19.000\nquestion\n\n30\n00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.200\nthat you need information from.\n\n31\n00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:26.450\nAnd he told me and I've passed it on, never sit in a room in a meeting without\n\n32\n00:01:26.450 --> 00:01:27.160\nknowing\n\n33\n00:01:27.160 --> 00:01:30.280\nwhat's going on, ask the questions.\n\n34\n00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.160\nAnd then I got another piece of advice from my friend, Katherine Downing, who\n\n35\n00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:34.960\nwas president\n\n36\n00:01:34.960 --> 00:01:37.360\nand publisher of the LA Times.\n\n37\n00:01:37.360 --> 00:01:41.740\nAnd she caught me one time because I always wanted to sort of back up and make\n\n38\n00:01:41.740 --> 00:01:42.440\nsure people\n\n39\n00:01:42.440 --> 00:01:44.920\ndidn't think that I thought I knew it all.\n\n40\n00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:49.690\nAnd so I'd start a question with something like, \"This is probably all wet or\n\n41\n00:01:49.690 --> 00:01:50.480\nthis probably\n\n42\n00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:52.880\ndoesn't make good sense, but I'm wondering what.\"\n\n43\n00:01:52.880 --> 00:01:57.920\nAnd she pulled me aside one time and she said, \"Never discount yourself.\n\n44\n00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:00.970\nNever discount the question that you're going to ask or the information that\n\n45\n00:02:00.970 --> 00:02:01.560\nyou're going\n\n46\n00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:03.120\nto share.\"\n\n47\n00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:07.400\nBecause then you set people up to expect to discount you anyway.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",2492299,"end_time",2618710,"keywords","questions, dumb questions, preparation, interview, job interview, homework","slug","prepare-listen-and-ask-questions","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","kHEieWGBHQvtmIGt8xP7jdvw9Zs2NH8X0102TUPLyllqk","mux_asset_id","4XFQH3Q028pnVmUlCfJJHF02A4aJ00iopWmpQYhrYh8aQ4","leader_id",10,"episode_id",157,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:51:11.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/2251/prepare-listen-and-ask-questions","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":37,"_102":103,"_104":105,"_106":107,"_26":108,"_109":110,"_63":111,"_60":111,"_112":113,"_70":114,"_40":115,"_116":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":-5,"_117":118,"_90":119,"_45":120,"_121":37,"_122":123,"_47":-5,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_94":128,"_52":-5},"episode",{"_13":39,"_15":53,"_28":54,"_17":55,"_56":57,"_19":58,"_21":59,"_60":61,"_62":-5,"_63":61,"_64":-5,"_65":66,"_67":68,"_69":-5,"_70":-5,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_75":-5,"_36":37,"_40":76,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":-5,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_87":88,"_89":-5,"_90":-5,"_47":-5,"_91":92,"_93":-5,"_94":-5,"_52":-5},"og_image_media","Set a tone of respect","set-a-tone-of-respect","Learn how to prioritize respect – both for yourself and your team. Get practical advice for staying calm in charged situations. Plus, invaluable wisdom for women and minority leaders.","summary","

Today’s guest is Bonnie Hill, Cofounder of Icon Blue, a brand marketing company based in L.A.

Bonnie has had an incredibly varied and successful career, leading in practically every area – business, government, education, and philanthropy.

She’s also served on over a dozen corporate boards – including Yum’s, where she and David got to work together.

She’s accomplished so much in her career – and she has gleaned so much about what great leaders and great organizations have in common.

In this conversation, you’ll hear an absolute goldmine of wisdom and big insights.

You’ll also hear how Bonnie puts a high priority on respect.

When respect is your guiding principle, it’s a game changer. You listen more closely. Your awareness and understanding go to another level. You can navigate conflicts and tough situations.

And ultimately, you earn the respect of everyone around you, too, just like Bonnie has.

You’ll also learn:

How to excel in a role that seems outside of your comfort zone
The most important thing to do when you start a new leadership position
One common trap that causes leaders to get off track – and how to avoid it
Three practical ways to lead calmly in tense or charged situations
Unmissable wisdom for women and minority leaders

Take your learning further. Get proven leadership advice from these (free!) resources:

The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

Whichever you choose, you can be sure you’ll get the trusted leadership advice you need to advance your career, develop your team, and grow your business.

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.480\nWelcome to Hal Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen to in while I\n\n2\n00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:08.040\ninterview\n\n3\n00:00:08.040 --> 00:00:10.800\nsome of the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.170\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:14.170 --> 00:00:14.760\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.760 --> 00:00:18.640\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.320\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:25.160\nYou know, when I think about it, I'm not sure I know anyone with a more\n\n9\n00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:26.960\ninteresting and wide-ranging\n\n10\n00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.040\ncareer than my guest today, Bonnie Hill.\n\n11\n00:00:30.040 --> 00:00:34.400\nFor three decades, Bonnie has been successful in pretty much every area you can\n\n12\n00:00:34.400 --> 00:00:35.360\nlead in,\n\n13\n00:00:35.360 --> 00:00:39.520\nbusiness, government, education, and even philanthropy.\n\n14\n00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:44.840\nShe's currently the co-founder of Icon Blue, a top-branding company in LA.\n\n15\n00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:49.900\nAnd if all that weren't enough, she's also served on over a dozen Fortune 500\n\n16\n00:00:49.900 --> 00:00:50.840\nboards,\n\n17\n00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:54.410\nincluding Yumsboard, so I've gotten the chance to see the extraordinary\n\n18\n00:00:54.410 --> 00:00:55.760\npresence Bonnie brings\n\n19\n00:00:55.760 --> 00:00:57.400\nto the room.\n\n20\n00:00:57.400 --> 00:01:01.510\nShe's accomplished so much in her career, and she's gleaned so much about what\n\n21\n00:01:01.510 --> 00:01:02.320\ngreat leaders\n\n22\n00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.280\nand great organizations have in common.\n\n23\n00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:10.060\nSo you're about to get an absolute goldmine of wisdom and some big insights,\n\n24\n00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:10.560\nbut I also\n\n25\n00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:15.640\nwant you to listen for how Bonnie puts a high priority on respect.\n\n26\n00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:21.080\nWhen respect is your guiding principle, believe me, it's a game-changer.\n\n27\n00:01:21.080 --> 00:01:26.840\nYou listen more closely, your awareness, and understanding go to another level.\n\n28\n00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:31.390\nYou know how to navigate conflicts and tough situations, and ultimately, you\n\n29\n00:01:31.390 --> 00:01:32.480\nearn the respect\n\n30\n00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:36.520\nof everyone around you, just like Bonnie has.\n\n31\n00:01:36.520 --> 00:01:47.500\nSo here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Bonnie Hill\n\n32\n00:01:47.500 --> 00:01:47.520\n.\n\n33\n00:01:47.520 --> 00:01:50.280\nBonnie, I always like to start at the beginning.\n\n34\n00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:51.680\nTell us about your upbringing.\n\n35\n00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:55.720\nWell, David, I'm like many other people that I know of.\n\n36\n00:01:55.720 --> 00:01:58.360\nI was born into a dysfunctional family.\n\n37\n00:01:58.360 --> 00:02:00.720\nFather left the day I was born.\n\n38\n00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:03.560\nMother couldn't handle that, became alcoholic.\n\n39\n00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:08.800\nAnd so I learned how to take care of myself and my mother at a very early age.\n\n40\n00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:10.640\nAnd those were some difficult times.\n\n41\n00:02:10.640 --> 00:02:12.200\nSometimes we were homeless.\n\n42\n00:02:12.200 --> 00:02:16.110\nMany times we didn't know exactly where our next meal would come from, but\n\n43\n00:02:16.110 --> 00:02:17.080\nthrough all\n\n44\n00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.040\nthat, there were many things I learned from my mother.\n\n45\n00:02:20.040 --> 00:02:25.250\nI eventually came to a place where I realized that I had two mothers, the sober\n\n46\n00:02:25.250 --> 00:02:26.240\nmother,\n\n47\n00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:31.360\nthat taught me so many things about life and how to deal with myself as an\n\n48\n00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:32.320\nindividual\n\n49\n00:02:32.320 --> 00:02:37.530\nand then the other mother, that could not handle herself and couldn't handle\n\n50\n00:02:37.530 --> 00:02:38.200\nlife.\n\n51\n00:02:38.200 --> 00:02:40.480\nAnd so that was sort of an early beginning.\n\n52\n00:02:40.480 --> 00:02:41.480\nOh, wow.\n\n53\n00:02:41.480 --> 00:02:46.000\nWell, let's talk just about what the sober mother taught you, Bonnie.\n\n54\n00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.000\nThat's an interesting, interesting concept.\n\n55\n00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:51.440\nWhat were those big insights that she taught you?\n\n56\n00:02:51.440 --> 00:02:55.060\nThat insight came sort of later in years, but among the things she taught me\n\n57\n00:02:55.060 --> 00:02:55.560\nwas it was\n\n58\n00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.120\nokay to be raggedy, but it was not okay to be dirty.\n\n59\n00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:03.060\nSo even though I didn't have the best of clothes and they were hand-me-downs,\n\n60\n00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:03.480\nthey always\n\n61\n00:03:03.480 --> 00:03:05.360\nhad to be clean.\n\n62\n00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:08.180\nAnother thing she taught me is you never stepped outside of the house with roll\n\n63\n00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:08.720\ners in your\n\n64\n00:03:08.720 --> 00:03:11.160\nhair or your head tied up.\n\n65\n00:03:11.160 --> 00:03:15.480\nAnd she said, you must always be presentable.\n\n66\n00:03:15.480 --> 00:03:19.280\nAnd then the other thing, and one of the final things that really has stuck\n\n67\n00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:20.640\nwith me is no\n\n68\n00:03:20.640 --> 00:03:25.540\nmatter where you live, no matter how bad it is, and we lived in storefronts and\n\n69\n00:03:25.540 --> 00:03:25.920\nwith other\n\n70\n00:03:25.920 --> 00:03:31.520\npeople and in some dire straits, but your house had to always be clean.\n\n71\n00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.680\nIt could be poor, but it could not be dirty.\n\n72\n00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.530\nAnd so those were things that have stayed with me for a long time and sometimes\n\n73\n00:03:38.530 --> 00:03:38.840\nit would\n\n74\n00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:40.480\nmake me a little anal.\n\n75\n00:03:40.480 --> 00:03:46.270\nSo do you remember your first official job where you actually got paid as a kid\n\n76\n00:03:46.270 --> 00:03:46.800\nand what\n\n77\n00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:48.320\ndid it teach you?\n\n78\n00:03:48.320 --> 00:03:52.630\nMy first official job where I got paid as a kid was in my high school, my\n\n79\n00:03:52.630 --> 00:03:53.520\nclimate's high\n\n80\n00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:55.880\nschool in Oakland, California.\n\n81\n00:03:55.880 --> 00:04:01.070\nAnd that was because when they put me in a typing class, which I wanted,\n\n82\n00:04:01.070 --> 00:04:01.760\nbecause I had\n\n83\n00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:06.140\nasked to get out of college prep and to get into something that would help me\n\n84\n00:04:06.140 --> 00:04:07.000\nget a job.\n\n85\n00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:12.650\nAnd they let me work in the vice principal's office and they paid me $12 a\n\n86\n00:04:12.650 --> 00:04:13.760\nmonth, which\n\n87\n00:04:13.760 --> 00:04:18.720\nhelped me to one save up enough money to have a dress for graduation and\n\n88\n00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:19.800\nsometimes help\n\n89\n00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.120\nwith food from my mother and myself.\n\n90\n00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:23.480\nSo that was my first paid job.\n\n91\n00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.260\nI was a junior high school student and got paid for working in the vice\n\n92\n00:04:28.260 --> 00:04:30.000\nprincipal's office.\n\n93\n00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.440\nWhat did that teach you?\n\n94\n00:04:31.440 --> 00:04:35.690\nIt taught me that it was important to work because my goal was always to get my\n\n95\n00:04:35.690 --> 00:04:36.240\nmother\n\n96\n00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:40.720\nand myself off of welfare because by this time we were on welfare.\n\n97\n00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:44.560\nAnd it taught me that you could work and that you could make a living.\n\n98\n00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:48.460\nAnd even though it wasn't the kind of living you might have wanted, perhaps it\n\n99\n00:04:48.460 --> 00:04:49.120\nwasn't like\n\n100\n00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:53.120\neveryone else's life, but it was a living and we were able to eat.\n\n101\n00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:56.600\nSo it taught me that I had to work in order to eat.\n\n102\n00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:58.520\nThat was a great lesson.\n\n103\n00:04:58.520 --> 00:05:01.520\nThat's a good correlation there.\n\n104\n00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:06.280\nBut you've had a fascinating career and I want to get into that.\n\n105\n00:05:06.280 --> 00:05:11.680\nBut tell us a story about how you got your career going that will tell us a lot\n\n106\n00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:12.240\nabout\n\n107\n00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:13.840\nthe kind of person you are.\n\n108\n00:05:13.840 --> 00:05:17.480\nWell, I did get clerical jobs along the way, David.\n\n109\n00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:19.880\nI worked at the Oakland Army base.\n\n110\n00:05:19.880 --> 00:05:24.210\nA friend had stolen the announcement off of the bulletin board and given it to\n\n111\n00:05:24.210 --> 00:05:24.560\nme.\n\n112\n00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.600\nSo I took the test and passed the civil service exam.\n\n113\n00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:35.560\nSo that was my first real job and I was just turning 18.\n\n114\n00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.120\nAnd there I learned traffic management.\n\n115\n00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:43.700\nAnd one of the generals there saw me standing in the aisles filing and he said,\n\n116\n00:05:43.700 --> 00:05:44.720\n\"Young lady,\n\n117\n00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.480\nwhat are you doing standing out here filing?\"\n\n118\n00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.140\nAnd I said, \"Well, I can't afford to go to school and this is the next best\n\n119\n00:05:50.140 --> 00:05:50.720\nthing.\"\n\n120\n00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.040\nAnd he said, \"I'll tell you what.\n\n121\n00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:58.050\nYou go to school nights and I will see to it that you get the opportunity to\n\n122\n00:05:58.050 --> 00:05:58.920\nearn more\n\n123\n00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.200\nmoney to move up on the job.\"\n\n124\n00:06:01.200 --> 00:06:03.720\nSo that was an innovation.\n\n125\n00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:05.280\nSo I would work all day.\n\n126\n00:06:05.280 --> 00:06:10.840\nI'd get a bus all the way to San Francisco to go to school and get home at the\n\n127\n00:06:10.840 --> 00:06:12.240\n1130,\n\n128\n00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:16.840\n12 o'clock at night and had to be on call for ports of call.\n\n129\n00:06:16.840 --> 00:06:20.600\nAnd it would sometimes be 4.35 o'clock in the morning when we had to show up.\n\n130\n00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:25.180\nSo that was the beginning of knowing that you had to have a bit more education\n\n131\n00:06:25.180 --> 00:06:26.240\nto be able,\n\n132\n00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.960\nfor me, to be able to get a job that was going to be significant.\n\n133\n00:06:29.960 --> 00:06:33.370\nI think the job you thought about was I left the Army base and I went to work\n\n134\n00:06:33.370 --> 00:06:33.880\nat Mills\n\n135\n00:06:33.880 --> 00:06:35.640\nCollege as a secretary.\n\n136\n00:06:35.640 --> 00:06:39.920\nAnd it was there working as a secretary that my husband at that time had a\n\n137\n00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:40.840\nsevere heart\n\n138\n00:06:40.840 --> 00:06:41.840\nattack.\n\n139\n00:06:41.840 --> 00:06:43.320\nHe did not die at that time.\n\n140\n00:06:43.320 --> 00:06:45.240\nBut I was becoming the breadwinner.\n\n141\n00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.920\nI had a small child by this time.\n\n142\n00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:52.480\nAnd so that's when I wanted to become a student at Mills College.\n\n143\n00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.520\nAnd you know the story, fast forward.\n\n144\n00:06:54.520 --> 00:06:58.420\nThe Dean of Admissions, when I spoke with her, she let me become a student on a\n\n145\n00:06:58.420 --> 00:06:58.920\npart-time\n\n146\n00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:00.160\nbasis.\n\n147\n00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:04.680\nAnd the president of Mills College allowed me to go without pay intuition.\n\n148\n00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:09.460\nAnd so at Mills College, I went from being a secretary to an administrative\n\n149\n00:07:09.460 --> 00:07:10.360\nassistant,\n\n150\n00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:14.970\nto assistant dean of student services, to interim head of the ethnic studies\n\n151\n00:07:14.970 --> 00:07:15.920\ndepartment.\n\n152\n00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:18.000\nAnd then that led to my jobs from there on.\n\n153\n00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.360\nSo I owe them a great deal in terms of allowing me to grow in a four-year\n\n154\n00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:23.600\nperiod of time at\n\n155\n00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:25.560\nthat same time.\n\n156\n00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:28.170\nInstead of taking the ten years, they thought it would take to finish my\n\n157\n00:07:28.170 --> 00:07:28.800\nbachelor's.\n\n158\n00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:33.490\nI did it in two and a half years, going to community colleges at night, taking\n\n159\n00:07:33.490 --> 00:07:34.000\ncare of\n\n160\n00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.400\na husband and taking care of my daughter as well.\n\n161\n00:07:37.400 --> 00:07:41.780\nAnd then when I finished that, my counselor at Mills said, \"Well, you have to\n\n162\n00:07:41.780 --> 00:07:42.280\ngo for the\n\n163\n00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:43.280\nmasters.\"\n\n164\n00:07:43.280 --> 00:07:44.640\nAnd I thought, \"You're kidding.\"\n\n165\n00:07:44.640 --> 00:07:45.640\nBut I did.\n\n166\n00:07:45.640 --> 00:07:46.640\nShe called.\n\n167\n00:07:46.640 --> 00:07:47.640\nI went for the masters.\n\n168\n00:07:47.640 --> 00:07:51.170\nAnd then my tutor at Cal State Hayward said, \"Well, you're going to have to go\n\n169\n00:07:51.170 --> 00:07:52.840\nfor the doctorate.\"\n\n170\n00:07:52.840 --> 00:07:55.680\nAnd so the rest is kind of history there.\n\n171\n00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:59.330\nBut a lot of people who intervened, you know, when you wrote the book, \"Taking\n\n172\n00:07:59.330 --> 00:07:59.920\nPeople With\n\n173\n00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:03.520\nYou,\" a lot of people took me with them in that way.\n\n174\n00:08:03.520 --> 00:08:05.800\nOh, that's great.\n\n175\n00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:07.680\nBonnie, you're so multi-dimensional.\n\n176\n00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.720\nYou started ICON Blue, which is a brand marketing company.\n\n177\n00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:15.430\nYou've been CEO of Times Mirror, charitable foundation, the head of public\n\n178\n00:08:15.430 --> 00:08:16.080\naffairs for\n\n179\n00:08:16.080 --> 00:08:20.430\nthe L.A. Times, the dean of school of commerce at the University of Virginia,\n\n180\n00:08:20.430 --> 00:08:20.920\nnot a bad\n\n181\n00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:21.920\nschool.\n\n182\n00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.270\nAnd the assistant secretary in the U.S. Department of Education, and you've\n\n183\n00:08:25.270 --> 00:08:26.360\nbeen a special advisor\n\n184\n00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.400\nto George W. Bush for Consumer Affairs.\n\n185\n00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:34.520\nYes, that's just such an unbelievable resume.\n\n186\n00:08:34.520 --> 00:08:37.720\nWhich of those areas did you enjoy the most and why?\n\n187\n00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:44.040\nI believe I really enjoyed most working for President George H.W. Bush.\n\n188\n00:08:44.040 --> 00:08:47.820\nAnd was right after I had served in the Reagan administration and President\n\n189\n00:08:47.820 --> 00:08:48.600\nBush became the\n\n190\n00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:49.600\npresident.\n\n191\n00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:51.040\nI worked with him on the campaign.\n\n192\n00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:55.080\nHe swore me in when I became assistant secretary at the Department of Education\n\n193\n00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:55.200\n.\n\n194\n00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:59.340\nAnd spending time with the Innes family at Kennebunkport, Maine was a real\n\n195\n00:08:59.340 --> 00:09:00.200\ntreat for me\n\n196\n00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.640\nbecause I saw the human side of a president.\n\n197\n00:09:03.640 --> 00:09:06.640\nThose were really good times, good times in Washington.\n\n198\n00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:11.310\nAnd that's probably because I made a decision early on in my career that I\n\n199\n00:09:11.310 --> 00:09:12.220\nwould never\n\n200\n00:09:12.220 --> 00:09:17.870\nwork at any organization or with anyone that I didn't respect, enjoy, and that\n\n201\n00:09:17.870 --> 00:09:18.800\nthey respected\n\n202\n00:09:18.800 --> 00:09:20.000\nme.\n\n203\n00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.240\nWhat really drew you to that conclusion?\n\n204\n00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.240\nI mean, what was it that made you say that was such a key thing to do?\n\n205\n00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:31.320\nI think, you know, when you come from the kind of background I did, people try\n\n206\n00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:32.080\nto define\n\n207\n00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:37.320\nyou and they tell you who you are and what you can do and how far you can go.\n\n208\n00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:38.320\nThat's kind of a natural thing.\n\n209\n00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.080\nOh, you can't do that because.\n\n210\n00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:47.480\nAnd so I developed a theme that said, never let anyone else define you.\n\n211\n00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:50.640\nAnd I did that when I was working at Mills College when the students there\n\n212\n00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:51.160\nwould come\n\n213\n00:09:51.160 --> 00:09:54.680\nto my office and sit around on the floor to just chat.\n\n214\n00:09:54.680 --> 00:09:56.720\nAnd that's when I was a secretary.\n\n215\n00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:01.250\nAnd they would ask questions like, who are the most important people in your\n\n216\n00:10:01.250 --> 00:10:01.520\nlife?\n\n217\n00:10:01.520 --> 00:10:06.580\nAnd we as women tend to go through a thing where we say, oh, my husband, my\n\n218\n00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:07.480\nchildren,\n\n219\n00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:09.440\nand we never say ourselves.\n\n220\n00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:10.800\nAnd I caught myself.\n\n221\n00:10:10.800 --> 00:10:13.920\nAnd one day I said to them, no, let me start all over again.\n\n222\n00:10:13.920 --> 00:10:18.700\nI'm the most important person in my life because if I want to take care of all\n\n223\n00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:19.280\nof those\n\n224\n00:10:19.280 --> 00:10:22.880\nI care about, I must first take care of me.\n\n225\n00:10:22.880 --> 00:10:27.400\nAnd I can never let anyone else define who I am or define me.\n\n226\n00:10:27.400 --> 00:10:30.440\nAnd you should never let anyone else do that as well.\n\n227\n00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:31.440\nThat's great.\n\n228\n00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:34.360\nYou had a lot of different jobs.\n\n229\n00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:39.870\nAnd which one area do you think challenged you the most and helped you grow the\n\n230\n00:10:39.870 --> 00:10:40.280\nmost\n\n231\n00:10:40.280 --> 00:10:41.640\nas a leader?\n\n232\n00:10:41.640 --> 00:10:46.090\nI think it was my first really professional job at Kaiser aluminum and chemical\n\n233\n00:10:46.090 --> 00:10:46.960\ncorporation.\n\n234\n00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.460\nI went there as an administrative manager to the senior vice president for\n\n235\n00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:50.960\nplanning\n\n236\n00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:52.840\nand control.\n\n237\n00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:57.410\nAnd he asked me to take a look at the Kaiser Center complex when he was going\n\n238\n00:10:57.410 --> 00:10:58.160\nto Hawaii,\n\n239\n00:10:58.160 --> 00:10:59.560\nhe and his family for the holidays.\n\n240\n00:10:59.560 --> 00:11:02.000\nI had only been working for him several months.\n\n241\n00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.080\nAnd when he came back, I shared with him what I thought.\n\n242\n00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.840\nThis was high-rise real estate development, property management.\n\n243\n00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:12.120\nAnd I don't know where all of that came from.\n\n244\n00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:15.120\nBut when he came back, I told him what I thought.\n\n245\n00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.680\nAnd he said, thank you.\n\n246\n00:11:16.680 --> 00:11:20.470\nAnd two weeks later, he called me and he said, congratulations, the board of\n\n247\n00:11:20.470 --> 00:11:21.120\ndirectors\n\n248\n00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.920\nhas just made you vice president general manager of Kaiser Center Inc.\n\n249\n00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:25.920\nAnd that was the beginning.\n\n250\n00:11:25.920 --> 00:11:29.960\nAnd he said, tomorrow morning, you meet with your full staff over there.\n\n251\n00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:31.760\nWith David, that was scary.\n\n252\n00:11:31.760 --> 00:11:36.610\nThere were eight Caucasian gentlemen who between them had well over 200 years\n\n253\n00:11:36.610 --> 00:11:37.520\nof service.\n\n254\n00:11:37.520 --> 00:11:40.240\nThey told me that if you turn them around and pull their drawers down, you\n\n255\n00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:40.680\nfound the\n\n256\n00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:43.360\nbig case stamped right in the rear.\n\n257\n00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.440\nAnd that was what I was going to have to deal with.\n\n258\n00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:51.420\nAnd so I thought about, you know, when I look back, you talked about how\n\n259\n00:11:51.420 --> 00:11:52.160\nimportant it\n\n260\n00:11:52.160 --> 00:11:56.040\nis to give people the credit that they need.\n\n261\n00:11:56.040 --> 00:11:59.590\nAnd I remember telling them when I met with them, I said, look, any one of you\n\n262\n00:11:59.590 --> 00:12:00.120\ncould do\n\n263\n00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:01.280\nthis job.\n\n264\n00:12:01.280 --> 00:12:04.000\nBut for whatever reason, I've been appointed.\n\n265\n00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:05.920\nI need you to work with me.\n\n266\n00:12:05.920 --> 00:12:08.280\nI need you to try me.\n\n267\n00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:12.570\nAnd if within a year that hasn't worked for you, I promise you you will get the\n\n268\n00:12:12.570 --> 00:12:13.160\npackage\n\n269\n00:12:13.160 --> 00:12:15.760\nyou would get if you left today.\n\n270\n00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:21.340\nAnd they all stayed and the one who had hoped to become the vice president and\n\n271\n00:12:21.340 --> 00:12:23.040\ngeneral manager,\n\n272\n00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:26.640\na year later came to me and he said, I've really tried this body.\n\n273\n00:12:26.640 --> 00:12:28.120\nYou're a great leader.\n\n274\n00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.160\nHe said, but this is very hard for me.\n\n275\n00:12:30.160 --> 00:12:32.320\nIs that package still available?\n\n276\n00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:33.880\nAnd I said, absolutely.\n\n277\n00:12:33.880 --> 00:12:39.800\nAnd so that was the first real professional corporate job that I had that I\n\n278\n00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:41.160\nthink prepared\n\n279\n00:12:41.160 --> 00:12:45.810\nme for the presidential appointments that came later and all of the other\n\n280\n00:12:45.810 --> 00:12:46.560\nthings.\n\n281\n00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:50.400\nI learned a great deal from my boss that was there.\n\n282\n00:12:50.400 --> 00:12:52.200\nAnd this is interesting, David.\n\n283\n00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.760\nWhen he told me that I had been appointed to do this, I said, okay.\n\n284\n00:12:56.760 --> 00:12:58.600\nAnd I never asked another question.\n\n285\n00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.490\nAnd a week later, he came and he said, Bonnie, you've not asked me what your\n\n286\n00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:02.120\ncompensation\n\n287\n00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:03.120\nwould be.\n\n288\n00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.520\nYou have not asked me anything about what this means.\n\n289\n00:13:05.520 --> 00:13:07.960\nAnd I said to him, I know you'll be fair.\n\n290\n00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.000\nAnd so he said, okay, let me tell you what you said.\n\n291\n00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:12.800\nThis is what your salary is.\n\n292\n00:13:12.800 --> 00:13:14.680\nThese are your stock options, your bonuses.\n\n293\n00:13:14.680 --> 00:13:17.240\nI didn't know what stock options were, David.\n\n294\n00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:20.200\nI didn't know how to do that.\n\n295\n00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:23.740\nAnd he took a yellow tablet and taught me all the things I needed to know to do\n\n296\n00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:24.080\nthat\n\n297\n00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:25.080\njob.\n\n298\n00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:26.080\nThat's great.\n\n299\n00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:29.960\nHow much, Bonnie, did your leadership approach change with the different\n\n300\n00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:30.840\nresponsibilities\n\n301\n00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:33.200\nthat you had throughout your career?\n\n302\n00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.800\nDifferent jobs, different places.\n\n303\n00:13:35.800 --> 00:13:40.960\nI think the real thing was I learned that no matter how smart I thought I was,\n\n304\n00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:40.960\nI learned\n\n305\n00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:45.270\nthat I was, and we all think we're pretty smart, that I could not do the jobs\n\n306\n00:13:45.270 --> 00:13:46.160\nalone.\n\n307\n00:13:46.160 --> 00:13:52.440\nThat without a team that believed in me, that trusted me to do the right thing\n\n308\n00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:53.000\non their\n\n309\n00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:57.760\nbehalf, that I could never have any accomplishments that I dreamed about, you\n\n310\n00:13:57.760 --> 00:13:58.720\nknow, as I would\n\n311\n00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:00.120\nlook at each job.\n\n312\n00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.880\nAnd the other thing was there was never a job that I felt I couldn't do.\n\n313\n00:14:03.880 --> 00:14:08.590\nSo all of the things that I've done through my life, I wasn't trained to do in\n\n314\n00:14:08.590 --> 00:14:09.360\nschool.\n\n315\n00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.750\nThere were things that I just decided, if someone's going to give me a chance,\n\n316\n00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:13.840\nthen\n\n317\n00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.840\nI must be able to do that because someone believes I can do that.\n\n318\n00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:22.790\nAnd that has been sort of a foundation of the lack of fear for taking on new\n\n319\n00:14:22.790 --> 00:14:23.960\nchallenges.\n\n320\n00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:25.920\nHow did you dig into each new job?\n\n321\n00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:28.280\nI mean, how did you go into a new assignment?\n\n322\n00:14:28.280 --> 00:14:30.520\nWhat advice could you give to people?\n\n323\n00:14:30.520 --> 00:14:34.960\nThe first thing I did was to spend time with each of the people who would be\n\n324\n00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:35.760\nreporting\n\n325\n00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:36.760\nto me.\n\n326\n00:14:36.760 --> 00:14:39.880\nI wanted to learn about the organization.\n\n327\n00:14:39.880 --> 00:14:45.420\nI wanted to know how they felt about their job and what kind of things would\n\n328\n00:14:45.420 --> 00:14:46.240\nhelp make\n\n329\n00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.840\nthem better as well.\n\n330\n00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:54.000\nAnd any advice that they had for me, so it was really important not to go in\n\n331\n00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:54.600\nwith an\n\n332\n00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.850\nattitude that, oh, I know exactly what I'm doing because I've been brought in\n\n333\n00:14:58.850 --> 00:14:59.320\nto lead\n\n334\n00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:03.480\nyou guys, but it's I need you to help me to lead.\n\n335\n00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:07.760\nAnd I need you to tell me what I can do to help you help me.\n\n336\n00:15:07.760 --> 00:15:12.100\nThat was important, especially in the government positions in the three\n\n337\n00:15:12.100 --> 00:15:13.960\npresidential appointments.\n\n338\n00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:18.840\nEach time you go in and what happens is there are people there who have been\n\n339\n00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.240\nthere for years\n\n340\n00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.760\nand they have gone through a whole lot of presidential appointees.\n\n341\n00:15:24.760 --> 00:15:27.760\nAnd so they're going to be there when you leave.\n\n342\n00:15:27.760 --> 00:15:33.990\nAnd so it was important for me to know what they saw through all the years they\n\n343\n00:15:33.990 --> 00:15:34.760\nhad been\n\n344\n00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:39.840\nthere and what was missing with each of the presidential appointees who came in\n\n345\n00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:40.200\nto be\n\n346\n00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:44.160\nthe leaders and what advice they would give to us.\n\n347\n00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:50.780\nAnd so I developed teamwork approach and it really did help me learn a great\n\n348\n00:15:50.780 --> 00:15:51.640\ndeal.\n\n349\n00:15:51.640 --> 00:15:54.360\nWhat was your first Board of Directors job, Bonnie?\n\n350\n00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:59.240\nMy first Board of Directors job was Niagara Mohawk in upstate New York.\n\n351\n00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:03.090\nI got a call from Search Firm that said that this company was interested in\n\n352\n00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:04.040\nhaving me serve\n\n353\n00:16:04.040 --> 00:16:07.320\non their Board of Directors and I have to tell you, David, I really didn't have\n\n354\n00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:07.800\na great\n\n355\n00:16:07.800 --> 00:16:10.920\nconcept or an idea of what a Board of Directors was.\n\n356\n00:16:10.920 --> 00:16:14.850\nI had a little bit of knowledge from Kaiser aluminum, but not enough I hadn't\n\n357\n00:16:14.850 --> 00:16:15.360\nbeen on\n\n358\n00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:16.560\nthe board.\n\n359\n00:16:16.560 --> 00:16:19.440\nSo they said, well, the chairman would like to come in and meet with you.\n\n360\n00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.160\nSo I said, that's fine.\n\n361\n00:16:21.160 --> 00:16:23.720\nSo he flew in to meet with me.\n\n362\n00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:28.680\nWe met in Washington, Washington National and he walked in and the first thing\n\n363\n00:16:28.680 --> 00:16:29.200\nhe said\n\n364\n00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:34.150\nwas, well, I wasn't really looking for a woman or an African American, but they\n\n365\n00:16:34.150 --> 00:16:34.520\ntell\n\n366\n00:16:34.520 --> 00:16:38.040\nme you have all the skills and the necessary experience.\n\n367\n00:16:38.040 --> 00:16:39.720\nSo I guess that's okay.\n\n368\n00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:42.600\nAnd that's the way we started that conversation.\n\n369\n00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.930\nWell, they were looking for someone that had a background in consumer affairs\n\n370\n00:16:46.930 --> 00:16:48.000\nor environmental\n\n371\n00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.080\naffairs.\n\n372\n00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:53.850\nAnd I had served as President Bush as Special Advisor for Consumer Affairs and\n\n373\n00:16:53.850 --> 00:16:54.520\nthen I had\n\n374\n00:16:54.520 --> 00:16:59.850\ntaken on a job hitting a nonprofit that was an environmental program for\n\n375\n00:16:59.850 --> 00:17:00.600\ndisadvantaged\n\n376\n00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.600\nyouth that had begun under the Bush administration.\n\n377\n00:17:04.600 --> 00:17:07.880\nSo fast forward, I became a member of his board.\n\n378\n00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:10.360\nHe had two other women on the board.\n\n379\n00:17:10.360 --> 00:17:14.410\nAnd so I had the opportunity to work with other women on the board on my very\n\n380\n00:17:14.410 --> 00:17:15.240\nfirst board.\n\n381\n00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:23.560\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Bonnie in just a moment.\n\n382\n00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:27.940\nAs you can clearly tell, Bonnie excels at stepping into tough situations and\n\n383\n00:17:27.940 --> 00:17:28.480\ngetting\n\n384\n00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:32.080\npeople to listen and understand each other.\n\n385\n00:17:32.080 --> 00:17:35.530\nThat's such a vital skill for leaders and it reminds me of a fantastic\n\n386\n00:17:35.530 --> 00:17:36.400\nconversation I\n\n387\n00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.400\nhad with Major League Baseball Commissioner, Rob Manfred.\n\n388\n00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.280\nNow Rob also knows a thing or two about how to find common ground.\n\n389\n00:17:44.280 --> 00:17:48.480\nAnd I love what he has to say about it when he joined me on the podcast.\n\n390\n00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:55.080\nYou have an obligation to go in a room and exchange views in a robust way and\n\n391\n00:17:55.080 --> 00:17:55.600\ntry in\n\n392\n00:17:55.600 --> 00:18:00.570\ngood faith to find common ground and understand the people that you want to\n\n393\n00:18:00.570 --> 00:18:01.560\nlead and what\n\n394\n00:18:01.560 --> 00:18:02.560\ntheir needs are.\n\n395\n00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:06.720\nNot just what you need from them, but what they need from you.\n\n396\n00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:12.050\nGo back and listen to my entire conversation with Rob, Episode 91 here on How\n\n397\n00:18:12.050 --> 00:18:13.120\nleaders lead.\n\n398\n00:18:13.120 --> 00:18:21.080\nYou know, you're now one of the foremost experts on corporate governance with\n\n399\n00:18:21.080 --> 00:18:21.640\nyour\n\n400\n00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.860\nexperience on boards of many top companies, Home Depot, Hershey's, Albertson,\n\n401\n00:18:26.860 --> 00:18:27.640\nJim, many\n\n402\n00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:28.640\nothers.\n\n403\n00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:33.440\nYou know, what made you decide to start your governance and policy consulting\n\n404\n00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:34.320\ncompany?\n\n405\n00:18:34.320 --> 00:18:36.720\nAnd what do you hope to achieve with your clients?\n\n406\n00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.740\nWell, I'm going to tell you first of all, David, that I'm semi-retired for the\n\n407\n00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:41.120\nmost\n\n408\n00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:42.120\npart.\n\n409\n00:18:42.120 --> 00:18:46.440\nI know what semi-retired means for you.\n\n410\n00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:50.350\nBut you know, what happened was my second or third board, third board, I\n\n411\n00:18:50.350 --> 00:18:51.120\nbelieve, was\n\n412\n00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:54.000\nLouisiana Pacific in Portland.\n\n413\n00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:58.340\nAnd what had happened, you know, as a poorest products company, and I had not\n\n414\n00:18:58.340 --> 00:18:59.000\nbeen on the\n\n415\n00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:04.060\nboard a year when the chairman walked in and told us that the company, all of\n\n416\n00:19:04.060 --> 00:19:04.800\nus, were\n\n417\n00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:07.600\nbeing indicted by a federal grand jury.\n\n418\n00:19:07.600 --> 00:19:10.640\nAnd he said, you'll have to form a special committee to deal with that.\n\n419\n00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:12.800\nAnd he walked out the door.\n\n420\n00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:16.720\nSo there were only five outside directors.\n\n421\n00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.320\nAnd each of them looked at me and said, one said, well, I'm a politician.\n\n422\n00:19:20.320 --> 00:19:24.400\nThe other one, you know, I'll never forget Chuck Yeager said, I'm a test pilot.\n\n423\n00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:25.440\nAnd he was a forester.\n\n424\n00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:27.280\nHe was very good with forestry.\n\n425\n00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:29.240\nAnd another one said, I was a treasurer of the US.\n\n426\n00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.880\nAnd another one said, you know, well, I'm this.\n\n427\n00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.240\nAnd they all said, you're a dean of a business school.\n\n428\n00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:37.120\nSo you chair this committee.\n\n429\n00:19:37.120 --> 00:19:40.760\nAnd that's how I got involved with governance.\n\n430\n00:19:40.760 --> 00:19:45.830\nI worked with some of the foremost lawyers in the country and some former\n\n431\n00:19:45.830 --> 00:19:46.720\njustices as\n\n432\n00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:47.720\nwell.\n\n433\n00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:52.740\nAnd I learned the importance of the value that the company develops for\n\n434\n00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:53.960\nshareholders, the\n\n435\n00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:59.930\nimportance of honesty in everything that you do, the importance of transparency\n\n436\n00:19:59.930 --> 00:20:00.240\n.\n\n437\n00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.000\nAnd we got through that.\n\n438\n00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.210\nWe had class action lawsuits and all kinds of things, but I learned so much at\n\n439\n00:20:07.210 --> 00:20:07.520\nthat\n\n440\n00:20:07.520 --> 00:20:12.960\ntime about governance and about board work that I had never anticipated.\n\n441\n00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.720\nAnd that's how I really got into the governance side.\n\n442\n00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.960\nIt was experience and it was being in the fire at the time and having to get\n\n443\n00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:21.560\nthrough\n\n444\n00:20:21.560 --> 00:20:22.560\nit.\n\n445\n00:20:22.560 --> 00:20:26.120\nCan you tell us a story of a company that you really helped with the vice and\n\n446\n00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:26.640\nexperience\n\n447\n00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:28.640\nthat you picked up?\n\n448\n00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:35.420\nYou know, I think that Home Depot was probably the one that most people recall\n\n449\n00:20:35.420 --> 00:20:36.840\nmy involvement\n\n450\n00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:40.230\nwith and engagement with because there was a period of time that we went\n\n451\n00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:40.960\nthrough some\n\n452\n00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.520\nvery tough times.\n\n453\n00:20:42.520 --> 00:20:49.280\nAnd I learned from the best, as you may recall, Kinland Gown was lead director.\n\n454\n00:20:49.280 --> 00:20:54.250\nAnd as we were transitioning, Kin and the non governance committee decided that\n\n455\n00:20:54.250 --> 00:20:54.800\nI would\n\n456\n00:20:54.800 --> 00:20:59.170\nbe a good person to become the lead director because I was chairing the\n\n457\n00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:00.280\ncompensation committee\n\n458\n00:21:00.280 --> 00:21:04.880\nand dealing with shareholders who were very angry during the time that we were\n\n459\n00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:05.560\nhaving our\n\n460\n00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:07.080\nchallenges.\n\n461\n00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:09.880\nAnd so, Kin coached me a lot.\n\n462\n00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:14.670\nAnd I learned a lot from him because he's always felt you should be transparent\n\n463\n00:21:14.670 --> 00:21:14.680\n.\n\n464\n00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.900\nThe shareholders are important and all the employees that are embarrassed by\n\n465\n00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:19.440\nanything\n\n466\n00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.960\nthat the board or the company does are important.\n\n467\n00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:27.120\nSo that was a tremendous experience for me.\n\n468\n00:21:27.120 --> 00:21:33.990\nAnd it was one where I had to meet with dissident shareholders and with unions\n\n469\n00:21:33.990 --> 00:21:35.520\nand with people\n\n470\n00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:38.760\nwho were really upset with Home Depot.\n\n471\n00:21:38.760 --> 00:21:45.450\nAnd we came out of that because the board was very supportive of the direction\n\n472\n00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:46.000\nthat we\n\n473\n00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:47.000\nwere taking.\n\n474\n00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.160\nAnd they were right there.\n\n475\n00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:50.160\nThey helped.\n\n476\n00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:54.360\nAnd yes, I had to be out front and sort of take on a lot of the black and some\n\n477\n00:21:54.360 --> 00:21:54.800\nof the\n\n478\n00:21:54.800 --> 00:21:58.500\nleadership things, but you can't do that without a great board and without a\n\n479\n00:21:58.500 --> 00:21:59.440\ngreat management\n\n480\n00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:00.440\nteam.\n\n481\n00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:01.840\nAnd so that was the beginning.\n\n482\n00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:04.880\nWhat do you think is the role of the board of directors?\n\n483\n00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.920\nThe board of directors has to understand, I think, in just about every instance\n\n484\n00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:09.920\nthat\n\n485\n00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:11.840\nit is not management.\n\n486\n00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:13.520\nIt is oversight.\n\n487\n00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:18.080\nThe board is responsible for overseeing the strategic plan.\n\n488\n00:22:18.080 --> 00:22:21.360\nBut management does the strategic plan and owns it.\n\n489\n00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:25.750\nAnd so the board has to work with management to make certain that they agree\n\n490\n00:22:25.750 --> 00:22:26.560\nwith and can\n\n491\n00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:31.430\nsupport that direction in terms of the strategy and then to make certain that\n\n492\n00:22:31.430 --> 00:22:32.360\nthey stay the\n\n493\n00:22:32.360 --> 00:22:33.360\ncourse.\n\n494\n00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:36.510\nYou know, we always hear that one of the major jobs of the board is the hiring\n\n495\n00:22:36.510 --> 00:22:37.040\nand firing\n\n496\n00:22:37.040 --> 00:22:38.200\nof the CEO.\n\n497\n00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:39.960\nYes, that's true.\n\n498\n00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:44.390\nBut once you've done that, the board has to recognize that they have selected a\n\n499\n00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:44.880\nleader\n\n500\n00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:46.400\nthat is the leader.\n\n501\n00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:47.400\nSupport that leader.\n\n502\n00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.360\nThat's not the right leader.\n\n503\n00:22:49.360 --> 00:22:53.840\nThe board then has to make a decision as to how to do that and or how to make a\n\n504\n00:22:53.840 --> 00:22:54.440\nchange,\n\n505\n00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:55.960\nif necessary.\n\n506\n00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:00.320\nAnd most often, because they're responsible for the hiring of the CEO, it's\n\n507\n00:23:00.320 --> 00:23:00.840\ngoing to\n\n508\n00:23:00.840 --> 00:23:04.200\nbe a good relationship that will work well.\n\n509\n00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:09.280\nBut the board has to recognize it is the arm of the shareholders.\n\n510\n00:23:09.280 --> 00:23:11.320\nIts obligation is to the shareholders.\n\n511\n00:23:11.320 --> 00:23:15.740\nAnd its obligation is also to all of those people that work within the\n\n512\n00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:16.880\ncompanies to help\n\n513\n00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.920\nmake it the great company that it is.\n\n514\n00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:20.920\nAnd hopefully it is.\n\n515\n00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:24.680\nAnd I'm thinking of Yum and many other companies that I've worked with and I\n\n516\n00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:25.280\nthink they're\n\n517\n00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:26.280\nall great companies.\n\n518\n00:23:26.280 --> 00:23:29.530\nAnd again, as I said, I wouldn't serve on the board of a company that I didn't\n\n519\n00:23:29.530 --> 00:23:30.000\nrespect\n\n520\n00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.000\nif I didn't respect the CEO or the leadership team.\n\n521\n00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.080\nYou know, each of the companies you've served on, obviously, are different\n\n522\n00:23:37.080 --> 00:23:37.920\ncategories.\n\n523\n00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:42.960\nBut did you find any commonalities among the best performers?\n\n524\n00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:49.280\nI did, the commonalities that I found were one, the tone at the top.\n\n525\n00:23:49.280 --> 00:23:50.600\nThat's always important.\n\n526\n00:23:50.600 --> 00:23:53.040\nWhat was the tone that was being said at the top?\n\n527\n00:23:53.040 --> 00:23:54.520\nWho is the leader?\n\n528\n00:23:54.520 --> 00:23:59.650\nAnd is that leader an inspirational leader where people feel that the leader\n\n529\n00:23:59.650 --> 00:24:00.520\ncares about\n\n530\n00:24:00.520 --> 00:24:06.250\nthem, cares about the company and understands his or her role as it relates to\n\n531\n00:24:06.250 --> 00:24:06.840\nnot just\n\n532\n00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:10.320\nthem, but also the shareholders and all stakeholders.\n\n533\n00:24:10.320 --> 00:24:16.790\nI always looked at how the CEO interfaced with the head of human resources or\n\n534\n00:24:16.790 --> 00:24:17.360\nin the\n\n535\n00:24:17.360 --> 00:24:22.390\nYum case, the chief people officer with the general counsel and with investor\n\n536\n00:24:22.390 --> 00:24:23.760\nrelations.\n\n537\n00:24:23.760 --> 00:24:29.040\nYou know, those are our key positions, the chief financial officer.\n\n538\n00:24:29.040 --> 00:24:32.610\nThat's a team, that's a core team that has to be able to work together and the\n\n539\n00:24:32.610 --> 00:24:33.360\nrelationship\n\n540\n00:24:33.360 --> 00:24:34.680\nhas to be a good one.\n\n541\n00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:38.900\nAnd if you find that the CEO discount his general counsel or the chief\n\n542\n00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:40.160\nfinancial officer\n\n543\n00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.920\nthen you've got a challenge.\n\n544\n00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.840\nAnd so that's what I always looked for going into a company.\n\n545\n00:24:44.840 --> 00:24:48.860\nHow important do you think recognition is, is the value that drive deep in an\n\n546\n00:24:48.860 --> 00:24:49.840\norganization's\n\n547\n00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:50.840\nculture?\n\n548\n00:24:50.840 --> 00:24:52.160\nI think it's key.\n\n549\n00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:58.590\nYou know, if people do not feel valued, then they don't do the best when they\n\n550\n00:24:58.590 --> 00:24:59.520\ngo to work\n\n551\n00:24:59.520 --> 00:25:00.680\nevery day.\n\n552\n00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:04.780\nMany people get up dreading the fact that they do have to go to work because\n\n553\n00:25:04.780 --> 00:25:05.640\nthey don't\n\n554\n00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.480\nfeel that they're valued as an employee or as a member of the team.\n\n555\n00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:11.480\nAnd that's critical.\n\n556\n00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:16.960\nI mean, I think, you know, you hit on it with, you know, your old great one.\n\n557\n00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:22.670\nAnd as I read through that, I was talking with my husband, Walter, and I said,\n\n558\n00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:23.280\nyou know,\n\n559\n00:25:23.280 --> 00:25:29.550\nhere are things that when I look back, you know, that made such a big\n\n560\n00:25:29.550 --> 00:25:31.160\ndifference in all\n\n561\n00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:35.290\nof the things I did in my life, I wasn't smart enough to know it's what I was\n\n562\n00:25:35.290 --> 00:25:35.600\ndoing.\n\n563\n00:25:35.600 --> 00:25:40.010\nBut I was smart enough to know that I couldn't do things on my own that you had\n\n564\n00:25:40.010 --> 00:25:40.640\nto bring\n\n565\n00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:46.590\npeople along and that they had to feel valued and you had to recognize that\n\n566\n00:25:46.590 --> 00:25:47.480\nvalue.\n\n567\n00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:50.880\nAnd I still have the clacking teeth, David, that you gave me.\n\n568\n00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.680\nI gave you that yellow word.\n\n569\n00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:53.680\nThat's great.\n\n570\n00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:58.640\nAnd then Greg Creek came behind you and he gave me another yellow word.\n\n571\n00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:02.760\nSo I got clacking teeth off the place and their great awards.\n\n572\n00:26:02.760 --> 00:26:03.760\nAnd it's critical.\n\n573\n00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:06.720\nIt's critical to have a recognition.\n\n574\n00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.420\nYou know, you've seen many leaders, but what would you say would be the single\n\n575\n00:26:10.420 --> 00:26:11.240\nmost important\n\n576\n00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.760\ntrade of the successful leaders you've seen?\n\n577\n00:26:13.760 --> 00:26:17.360\nWhat do you think really is that essential?\n\n578\n00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:23.380\nThe word that comes to my mind is humility, the ability to listen to others and\n\n579\n00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:24.240\nto engage\n\n580\n00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.120\nothers and to take advice in.\n\n581\n00:26:27.120 --> 00:26:32.160\nThat's a very difficult thing for many leaders because they feel many times\n\n582\n00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:33.120\nthat they're\n\n583\n00:26:33.120 --> 00:26:36.720\nleading because they're supposed to know it all.\n\n584\n00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.040\nAnd that's just not the case.\n\n585\n00:26:39.040 --> 00:26:44.080\nSo I think you have to have a good sense of who you are, but enough humility to\n\n586\n00:26:44.080 --> 00:26:44.600\nbe able\n\n587\n00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:48.680\nto listen to others and recognize that you can always learn.\n\n588\n00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.240\nWhen you stop learning, you cease to grow and you cease to lead.\n\n589\n00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:57.280\nWhat do you think is the biggest reasons why leaders derail?\n\n590\n00:26:57.280 --> 00:26:58.280\nErikaans.\n\n591\n00:26:58.280 --> 00:27:04.960\nI mean, I think Erikaans is one of the main things that causes many leaders to\n\n592\n00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:06.000\nderail.\n\n593\n00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.730\nI've watched through the years and they wouldn't say they were Erikaans, but it\n\n594\n00:27:10.730 --> 00:27:12.280\n's this tendency\n\n595\n00:27:12.280 --> 00:27:17.960\nto want to make certain that people know that you know it all.\n\n596\n00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:23.430\nAnd therefore, many people that could support you and help you no longer do\n\n597\n00:27:23.430 --> 00:27:24.120\nthat.\n\n598\n00:27:24.120 --> 00:27:27.320\nPeople will let you derail and they'll pull back.\n\n599\n00:27:27.320 --> 00:27:32.250\nAnd someone in many instances have just enough knowledge to be able to say, \"\n\n600\n00:27:32.250 --> 00:27:33.280\nHey, pull your\n\n601\n00:27:33.280 --> 00:27:37.010\nco-tell and say, 'This is happening or this is what's going on in the\n\n602\n00:27:37.010 --> 00:27:38.160\norganization.'\n\n603\n00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:42.360\nAnd so you need to sort of do a reset, hit the reset button.\n\n604\n00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:45.440\nI know that I'll use the example of Home Depot.\n\n605\n00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:50.540\nThe directors were required to visit stores, X number of stores per quarter, to\n\n606\n00:27:50.540 --> 00:27:51.520\nreally find\n\n607\n00:27:51.520 --> 00:27:55.930\nout what was going on and then to come back and just to talk in generalities\n\n608\n00:27:55.930 --> 00:27:56.800\nabout things\n\n609\n00:27:56.800 --> 00:28:01.140\nthat needed to be changed or things that they found, whether it was a dirty\n\n610\n00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:02.040\nstore or poor\n\n611\n00:28:02.040 --> 00:28:03.880\nmorale or whatever the case.\n\n612\n00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.040\nAnd you know how important that is.\n\n613\n00:28:06.040 --> 00:28:09.200\nIt's important to be able to listen and to have enough humility.\n\n614\n00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.520\nYou know, Bonnie, diversity and inclusion is a real hot topic today.\n\n615\n00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:17.400\nAnd it's important for every company to really make it a high value.\n\n616\n00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.280\nDo you have a unique perspective on why it's so valuable?\n\n617\n00:28:21.280 --> 00:28:26.750\nI don't know that I have a unique perspective, David, but the reason I think it\n\n618\n00:28:26.750 --> 00:28:27.720\nis valuable\n\n619\n00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:32.360\nis sometimes, you know how they say, \"No man is an island.\"\n\n620\n00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:37.860\nAnd when everyone thinks alike and looks alike, then they just march down a\n\n621\n00:28:37.860 --> 00:28:38.540\ncertain\n\n622\n00:28:38.540 --> 00:28:41.560\nroad and never look to the left or to right.\n\n623\n00:28:41.560 --> 00:28:44.980\nWhen you bring in people who have different perspectives, regardless of what\n\n624\n00:28:44.980 --> 00:28:46.120\nthose perspectives\n\n625\n00:28:46.120 --> 00:28:47.320\nare, they're different.\n\n626\n00:28:47.320 --> 00:28:52.680\nThey represent either your shareholders or your employees or your suppliers.\n\n627\n00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:58.000\nIt's really important to have the ability to hear different perspectives.\n\n628\n00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:03.480\nAnd so in a boardroom, you know, when you're a global company such as YUM, you\n\n629\n00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:03.880\nknow, it's\n\n630\n00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.040\nimportant to hear global perspectives.\n\n631\n00:29:07.040 --> 00:29:13.050\nAnd so you have to include people that bring that different perspectives, the\n\n632\n00:29:13.050 --> 00:29:13.760\nsame with\n\n633\n00:29:13.760 --> 00:29:19.240\nyour management team, because all of the people that you're serving and those\n\n634\n00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:19.960\nthat make the\n\n635\n00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:25.150\ncompany great, those that buy the products or use the services need to make\n\n636\n00:29:25.150 --> 00:29:25.880\nsure that\n\n637\n00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:28.520\nthe company can relate to them in some way.\n\n638\n00:29:28.520 --> 00:29:30.360\nI would say that's important.\n\n639\n00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:34.950\nI recently watched the video in preparation for this podcast, Bonnie, where you\n\n640\n00:29:34.950 --> 00:29:35.560\nreceived\n\n641\n00:29:35.560 --> 00:29:40.040\na lifetime achievement award and people recognized your impact.\n\n642\n00:29:40.040 --> 00:29:43.480\nYou know, I want you just to react to some of the comments.\n\n643\n00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:48.880\nYou know, one you were described as a woman who's generous, has grace and guts.\n\n644\n00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.840\nHow can you have grace and guts?\n\n645\n00:29:51.840 --> 00:29:58.710\nI have a term, David, that I share with all of those I coach and it is always\n\n646\n00:29:58.710 --> 00:30:00.040\nleave people\n\n647\n00:30:00.040 --> 00:30:01.200\nwhole.\n\n648\n00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:04.680\nSo it means that you can disagree with people.\n\n649\n00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:08.970\nYou can have differences of opinion, but you want to make certain that when you\n\n650\n00:30:08.970 --> 00:30:09.400\nleave\n\n651\n00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:14.230\nthe conversation, the person doesn't feel diminished in any way, that they feel\n\n652\n00:30:14.230 --> 00:30:14.520\nthat\n\n653\n00:30:14.520 --> 00:30:19.290\nthey've been treated with respect and that you have respectfully disagreed with\n\n654\n00:30:19.290 --> 00:30:19.960\nthem.\n\n655\n00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:24.360\nAnd then you work on trying to come together in some way where you can work\n\n656\n00:30:24.360 --> 00:30:25.280\ntogether.\n\n657\n00:30:25.280 --> 00:30:27.280\nAnd that might be what they're talking about.\n\n658\n00:30:27.280 --> 00:30:31.950\nYeah, someone also said that you rejoice when you see someone you mentor, make\n\n659\n00:30:31.950 --> 00:30:32.880\nan achievement\n\n660\n00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:34.280\nand have success.\n\n661\n00:30:34.280 --> 00:30:38.400\nCan you share with us one of your favorite mentoring success stories?\n\n662\n00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.760\nWell, yes, a number of them come to mind.\n\n663\n00:30:42.760 --> 00:30:45.800\nThere are a number of women who have ended up on boards.\n\n664\n00:30:45.800 --> 00:30:49.000\nBut let me tell you one that really makes me feel good.\n\n665\n00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.610\nI didn't completely mentor this person, but another woman that I had mentored\n\n666\n00:30:54.610 --> 00:30:55.320\nwanted me\n\n667\n00:30:55.320 --> 00:30:56.960\nto meet her.\n\n668\n00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.080\nAnd so we met and I liked her a great deal.\n\n669\n00:31:00.080 --> 00:31:06.480\nAnd when I was leaving the board of a case deal, you know, I said, look, guys,\n\n670\n00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:07.160\nthere's\n\n671\n00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:13.040\na person I'd like for you to meet that might be someone you'd like to consider.\n\n672\n00:31:13.040 --> 00:31:17.790\nAnd I didn't say they knew the new she was female, but I didn't say anything\n\n673\n00:31:17.790 --> 00:31:18.440\nelse.\n\n674\n00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:21.760\nI just said, here's the experience that she has.\n\n675\n00:31:21.760 --> 00:31:24.600\nThis is her background so forth and so on.\n\n676\n00:31:24.600 --> 00:31:28.490\nAnd they met her, fell in love with her and said, you didn't tell us she was\n\n677\n00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:30.680\nAfrican American.\n\n678\n00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:32.600\nAnd I said that wasn't important.\n\n679\n00:31:32.600 --> 00:31:38.560\nWhat was important was that she had the skill set that you needed, period.\n\n680\n00:31:38.560 --> 00:31:43.460\nAnd that made me feel so good, David, that I didn't feel a need to say, Oh,\n\n681\n00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:44.160\nhere's an\n\n682\n00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.290\nAfrican American woman that I want you to meet that you may want to consider\n\n683\n00:31:47.290 --> 00:31:47.720\nbecause\n\n684\n00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:50.440\nI'm going off the board and I'm African American.\n\n685\n00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:51.920\nNever had to go through any of that.\n\n686\n00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:52.920\nThat's great.\n\n687\n00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:56.830\nYou know, you're also described on this video, which is very glowing, by the\n\n688\n00:31:56.830 --> 00:31:57.960\nway, you know,\n\n689\n00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:02.360\nthat as calm and purposeful in the boardroom, you know, well, how do you know,\n\n690\n00:32:02.360 --> 00:32:02.480\nwhat do\n\n691\n00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:07.680\nyou remain calm, especially in times of conflict?\n\n692\n00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.440\nYou talk to yourself.\n\n693\n00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.400\nWhat do you mean?\n\n694\n00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:17.700\nWell, you know, I tell myself that when all is said and done, we still have to\n\n695\n00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:19.560\nwork together.\n\n696\n00:32:19.560 --> 00:32:24.840\nAnd so my daughter had a saying, she would say, Mom, you and I can be having a\n\n697\n00:32:24.840 --> 00:32:25.920\nconversation\n\n698\n00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.400\nand you're just really easy going and so forth and so on.\n\n699\n00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:32.680\nBut then we go into, I ask you advice, you go into a business mode.\n\n700\n00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:35.440\nI thought, okay, I do do that.\n\n701\n00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.320\nAnd I've seen myself do that in the boardroom.\n\n702\n00:32:38.320 --> 00:32:43.270\nBut what it is is I want to make certain that I hear what is going on and that\n\n703\n00:32:43.270 --> 00:32:44.080\nI pay close\n\n704\n00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:47.160\nattention as opposed to react.\n\n705\n00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:49.040\nAnd David, you're very good at that.\n\n706\n00:32:49.040 --> 00:32:50.760\nSo you know what that's like.\n\n707\n00:32:50.760 --> 00:32:57.020\nI mean, I have seen you do that, you know, when a lot of people would get angry\n\n708\n00:32:57.020 --> 00:32:57.400\n.\n\n709\n00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:02.850\nThe important thing is not to get angry to recognize that everyone has the\n\n710\n00:33:02.850 --> 00:33:03.440\nright to their\n\n711\n00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:09.010\nopinion and then to try to work through the issues on behalf of shareholders\n\n712\n00:33:09.010 --> 00:33:11.160\nand the employees.\n\n713\n00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:16.120\nAnother person said that you're so thoughtful in what you say and perceptive\n\n714\n00:33:16.120 --> 00:33:17.040\nabout what's\n\n715\n00:33:17.040 --> 00:33:18.560\ngoing on around you.\n\n716\n00:33:18.560 --> 00:33:23.160\nDo you have any tips on how to develop skills like that?\n\n717\n00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:24.560\nI don't really.\n\n718\n00:33:24.560 --> 00:33:26.840\nI think listening is important.\n\n719\n00:33:26.840 --> 00:33:30.750\nYou know, I often joke about the fact that I have at least two of my degrees\n\n720\n00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:32.440\nwere in psychology\n\n721\n00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:38.540\nand that you know, you learn to read body language, to watch facial expressions\n\n722\n00:33:38.540 --> 00:33:38.880\nand to\n\n723\n00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:42.590\nmake sure that, you know, if you've said something and you can see a reaction\n\n724\n00:33:42.590 --> 00:33:43.000\nfrom a\n\n725\n00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:47.560\nperson that you know that this has affected them, that you'll be able to pull\n\n726\n00:33:47.560 --> 00:33:48.200\nback.\n\n727\n00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:54.400\nEven a lay person, you know, can pull back and listen and then, you know, take\n\n728\n00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:55.000\ntime to\n\n729\n00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:56.200\nrespond.\n\n730\n00:33:56.200 --> 00:34:01.220\nSometimes, and I've been guilty of this, speaking too soon when you haven't\n\n731\n00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:02.560\nheard what people\n\n732\n00:34:02.560 --> 00:34:04.200\nneed to say.\n\n733\n00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:08.900\nAnd then the other thing is allowing other people to weigh in and have an\n\n734\n00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:09.920\nopinion before,\n\n735\n00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:13.340\nyou know, coming forth, you know, with your own, especially if you're in a\n\n736\n00:34:13.340 --> 00:34:14.000\nposition of\n\n737\n00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.080\nleadership and they're looking to you to do that.\n\n738\n00:34:17.080 --> 00:34:22.090\nSo I try to listen to make certain that I've heard a number of different\n\n739\n00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:24.360\nperspectives before\n\n740\n00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:28.120\nsuggesting that there are things that people may want to consider.\n\n741\n00:34:28.120 --> 00:34:33.030\nAnd that's hard sometimes because I'm a Scorpio and I react quickly most of the\n\n742\n00:34:33.030 --> 00:34:33.880\ntime.\n\n743\n00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:34.880\nSo I have to.\n\n744\n00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:36.040\nThat's why we get along.\n\n745\n00:34:36.040 --> 00:34:39.680\nI'm a Scorpio either love each other or hate each other.\n\n746\n00:34:39.680 --> 00:34:40.680\nThat's right.\n\n747\n00:34:40.680 --> 00:34:42.080\nAnd my husband's a Scorpio David.\n\n748\n00:34:42.080 --> 00:34:49.200\nSo that tells you we have some fun times here at home.\n\n749\n00:34:49.200 --> 00:34:52.370\nBecause you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who\n\n750\n00:34:52.370 --> 00:34:52.800\nwants to\n\n751\n00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:54.880\nlearn how to lead well.\n\n752\n00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.470\nBut there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and\n\n753\n00:34:58.470 --> 00:35:00.280\ncharge you $500\n\n754\n00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:05.960\nor $1,000 or heck, even $20,000 to try and show you how to lead.\n\n755\n00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:07.960\nThat's just not right.\n\n756\n00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:11.100\nIf you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to\n\n757\n00:35:11.100 --> 00:35:11.920\nsomething that\n\n758\n00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.680\nwill truly help you and it shouldn't cost a fortune.\n\n759\n00:35:15.680 --> 00:35:20.200\nSo I want you to go to howleaderslead.com and start my leadership class.\n\n760\n00:35:20.200 --> 00:35:22.240\nIt's really and truly free.\n\n761\n00:35:22.240 --> 00:35:26.880\nAnd after you take this class, you're going to feel more confident in your role\n\n762\n00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:27.200\nand you'll\n\n763\n00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:30.520\nbe on your way to getting big things done with your team.\n\n764\n00:35:30.520 --> 00:35:39.720\nGo check it out at howleaderslead.com.\n\n765\n00:35:39.720 --> 00:35:43.520\nWe both have the same birthday, October 30th.\n\n766\n00:35:43.520 --> 00:35:48.760\nWhat characteristic do you love about the Scorpio that you're glad you have?\n\n767\n00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:54.040\nWe never stop until we have the answer we need.\n\n768\n00:35:54.040 --> 00:35:58.160\nWe'll do the deepest dive necessary to get to the answer.\n\n769\n00:35:58.160 --> 00:36:04.220\nWell you were on my board and I can tell you you certainly lived up to that\n\n770\n00:36:04.220 --> 00:36:06.160\nScorpio trade.\n\n771\n00:36:06.160 --> 00:36:08.560\nMy trade is believe me.\n\n772\n00:36:08.560 --> 00:36:12.560\nIf somebody crosses me, I never ever forget it.\n\n773\n00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:23.360\nWell David, I have learned to forgive.\n\n774\n00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:28.360\nI read a book that said, \"Forgiving what you can't forget.\"\n\n775\n00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:30.520\nWell, I might forget it.\n\n776\n00:36:30.520 --> 00:36:33.720\nI might forgive somebody but I'm not sure.\n\n777\n00:36:33.720 --> 00:36:35.720\nYou're not going to forget it.\n\n778\n00:36:35.720 --> 00:36:36.720\nThat's right.\n\n779\n00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:37.960\nI don't forget either.\n\n780\n00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:42.730\nWhat are your most challenging days in the past couple of years and what did\n\n781\n00:36:42.730 --> 00:36:43.400\nyou learn\n\n782\n00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.040\nfrom it?\n\n783\n00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:51.640\nIn the past couple of years, I've been serving on several different boards but\n\n784\n00:36:51.640 --> 00:36:53.120\nonly one public\n\n785\n00:36:53.120 --> 00:37:00.820\ncompany board and it really makes a difference to me to try to pull back and\n\n786\n00:37:00.820 --> 00:37:02.640\nlet others lead\n\n787\n00:37:02.640 --> 00:37:07.160\nbecause I tend to be kind of like a bulldog.\n\n788\n00:37:07.160 --> 00:37:13.640\nI jump out in front and I take charge and I'm learning how not to do that.\n\n789\n00:37:13.640 --> 00:37:18.160\nHow have you learned to get better and better speaking and learning?\n\n790\n00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:21.640\nHow do you get better and better at showing up as a leader?\n\n791\n00:37:21.640 --> 00:37:26.000\nWhat's continuous improvement look like for Bonnie Hill?\n\n792\n00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:34.640\nContinuous improvement for me is staying current with leadership practices,\n\n793\n00:37:34.640 --> 00:37:37.480\nlistening to others,\n\n794\n00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:43.710\nreading a lot of books, tuning in on occasion to how leaders lead and watching\n\n795\n00:37:43.710 --> 00:37:44.640\ndifferent\n\n796\n00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:48.400\npeople that you interview, talk about their leadership skills.\n\n797\n00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:54.060\nI think learning really is a constant process and when we cease to learn, we\n\n798\n00:37:54.060 --> 00:37:55.640\ncease to live.\n\n799\n00:37:55.640 --> 00:37:59.800\nBonnie, this has been a lot of fun and I'd like to have a little bit more fun\n\n800\n00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:00.120\nwith the\n\n801\n00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:02.480\nlightning round of questions.\n\n802\n00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:04.000\nAre you ready for this?\n\n803\n00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.000\nI don't know.\n\n804\n00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.400\nI'm older now, David.\n\n805\n00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:07.800\nI don't know.\n\n806\n00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:09.480\nNo, you're not.\n\n807\n00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:10.840\nYou're better.\n\n808\n00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:16.280\nWhat are three words others would use to describe you?\n\n809\n00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:18.840\nHumility learned.\n\n810\n00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:25.760\nYou know what I mean by that and probably bullish.\n\n811\n00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:32.400\nIf you could be someone beside yourself for a day, who would it be and why?\n\n812\n00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:38.400\nI have no one else that I'd rather be than me and because I'm living my best\n\n813\n00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:39.120\nlife now\n\n814\n00:38:39.120 --> 00:38:42.310\nand I've had great experiences and I have great children and great\n\n815\n00:38:42.310 --> 00:38:43.360\ngrandchildren and\n\n816\n00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:47.320\na great life, there's no one else I'd rather be.\n\n817\n00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:51.960\nWhat's your biggest pet peeve?\n\n818\n00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:57.220\nIs when people don't put things back where they belong in the house or wherever\n\n819\n00:38:57.220 --> 00:38:57.800\nI go.\n\n820\n00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:01.590\nIf I go to someone else's home and things are out of place and it looks like\n\n821\n00:39:01.590 --> 00:39:02.200\nsomebody\n\n822\n00:39:02.200 --> 00:39:06.830\nsat something down where it shouldn't have been, I have to talk to myself to\n\n823\n00:39:06.830 --> 00:39:07.440\nkeep from\n\n824\n00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:09.280\nstepping in and doing it.\n\n825\n00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.920\nSo my pet peeve is disorder.\n\n826\n00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.240\nYou've worked with presidents of the United States.\n\n827\n00:39:15.240 --> 00:39:18.370\nWhat's something about being president of the United States that most people\n\n828\n00:39:18.370 --> 00:39:18.880\nwouldn't\n\n829\n00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:22.000\nknow?\n\n830\n00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:28.910\nThat they are human beings the same as we are and that David, they put their\n\n831\n00:39:28.910 --> 00:39:29.720\npants on\n\n832\n00:39:29.720 --> 00:39:37.200\nor they're skirt on the same way we do and I've had an opportunity to be around\n\n833\n00:39:37.200 --> 00:39:37.560\none of\n\n834\n00:39:37.560 --> 00:39:42.600\nthe presidents who was busy still in stake off of my plate.\n\n835\n00:39:42.600 --> 00:39:48.400\nBecause he wasn't allowed to eat steak and we had to have lobster.\n\n836\n00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:53.560\nJust knowing that they too are just like us was really a good thing.\n\n837\n00:39:53.560 --> 00:39:56.880\nWho was that president that was robbing your plate?\n\n838\n00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:03.160\nThat was George H.W. Bush, the elder Bush at his home in Kennebunkport.\n\n839\n00:40:03.160 --> 00:40:07.560\nIf you turn on the radio in your car, what would we hear?\n\n840\n00:40:07.560 --> 00:40:09.680\nYou would hear spa music.\n\n841\n00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:13.920\nWhat's something about you a few people would know?\n\n842\n00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.840\nMaybe few people would know that I did a lie goal.\n\n843\n00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.260\nOkay, that's the end of the lightning round and just a few more questions will\n\n844\n00:40:21.260 --> 00:40:21.760\nwrap this\n\n845\n00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:22.760\nup.\n\n846\n00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:24.280\nYou mentioned him just a second ago.\n\n847\n00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:29.440\nWhat's something about leadership you learned from president H.W. Bush?\n\n848\n00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:36.120\nI learned humility from him and I learned to write personal notes from him.\n\n849\n00:40:36.120 --> 00:40:43.640\nHe always wrote personal notes and sent you little cards and notes.\n\n850\n00:40:43.640 --> 00:40:47.000\nYou did that also, David.\n\n851\n00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:50.480\nThere's a similarity there but that was one of the things I learned from him.\n\n852\n00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:54.240\nThere's nothing like a personal handwritten note.\n\n853\n00:40:54.240 --> 00:40:58.640\nWhat's something about leadership you learned from president Reagan?\n\n854\n00:40:58.640 --> 00:40:59.800\nTrust but verify.\n\n855\n00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:04.280\nThat's a good one.\n\n856\n00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:07.760\nAs you look ahead, what's your unfinished business?\n\n857\n00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:11.440\nI have no unfinished business, David.\n\n858\n00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:14.960\nIf I left this world today, I would feel that I've lived a good life.\n\n859\n00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:20.730\nI've accomplished more than I ever thought I could and that my children, thank\n\n860\n00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:21.760\ngoodness,\n\n861\n00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.480\nwill carry on the legacy.\n\n862\n00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:25.480\nThat is fantastic.\n\n863\n00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:28.920\nI just wish everybody could say that.\n\n864\n00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:32.520\nWhat are three bits of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders?\n\n865\n00:41:32.520 --> 00:41:39.230\nI would suggest that whenever they go into a situation, any situation,\n\n866\n00:41:39.230 --> 00:41:40.840\ninterview, job\n\n867\n00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:45.750\ninterview, discussion group, that they do their homework before going into the\n\n868\n00:41:45.750 --> 00:41:46.680\nsituation.\n\n869\n00:41:46.680 --> 00:41:50.850\nIf they're meeting with someone, there's no excuse not to know who you're\n\n870\n00:41:50.850 --> 00:41:52.120\nmeeting with\n\n871\n00:41:52.120 --> 00:41:54.480\nand why you're meeting with them.\n\n872\n00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:56.080\nBe knowledgeable.\n\n873\n00:41:56.080 --> 00:41:57.280\nBe prepared.\n\n874\n00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:03.030\nThe other thing is to be open, be prepared to listen and to have an objective\n\n875\n00:42:03.030 --> 00:42:03.760\nwhen you\n\n876\n00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:08.280\nlisten that if you're going to ask questions, make certain that you have\n\n877\n00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:09.160\nlistened, that\n\n878\n00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:13.860\nyou've gained enough information that you believe you know what it is you want\n\n879\n00:42:13.860 --> 00:42:14.120\nfrom a\n\n880\n00:42:14.120 --> 00:42:17.000\nparticular meeting and then ask questions.\n\n881\n00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:19.920\nDo not be afraid to ask questions.\n\n882\n00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:24.200\nEven sometimes what might seem to be a dumb question.\n\n883\n00:42:24.200 --> 00:42:27.080\nOne of my mentors, my first one at Kaiser Center, he told me, \"I'm going to ask\n\n884\n00:42:27.080 --> 00:42:27.200\nyou\n\n885\n00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:31.330\nme that one of the things I want you to do is never be afraid to ask what you\n\n886\n00:42:31.330 --> 00:42:31.920\nconsider\n\n887\n00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.520\nto be the dumb question.\"\n\n888\n00:42:33.520 --> 00:42:39.240\nAnd he said, \"I know that women and African Americans tend to think that if\n\n889\n00:42:39.240 --> 00:42:40.040\nthey ask a\n\n890\n00:42:40.040 --> 00:42:43.450\nquestion that seems to be a dumb when people look down on them,\" he said, \"Don\n\n891\n00:42:43.450 --> 00:42:43.920\n't fall\n\n892\n00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:45.640\ninto that trap.\"\n\n893\n00:42:45.640 --> 00:42:50.370\nAnd so it's very important not to fall into the trap of not wanting to ask the\n\n894\n00:42:50.370 --> 00:42:50.920\nquestion\n\n895\n00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:53.120\nthat you need information from.\n\n896\n00:42:53.120 --> 00:42:58.370\nAnd he told me and I've passed it on, never sit in a room in a meeting without\n\n897\n00:42:58.370 --> 00:42:59.080\nknowing\n\n898\n00:42:59.080 --> 00:43:02.200\nwhat's going on, ask the questions.\n\n899\n00:43:02.200 --> 00:43:06.080\nAnd then I got another piece of advice from my friend, Katherine Downing, who\n\n900\n00:43:06.080 --> 00:43:06.880\nwas president\n\n901\n00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.240\nand publisher of the LA Times.\n\n902\n00:43:09.240 --> 00:43:13.620\nAnd she caught me one time because I always wanted to sort of back up and make\n\n903\n00:43:13.620 --> 00:43:14.360\nsure people\n\n904\n00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:16.800\ndidn't think that I thought I knew it all.\n\n905\n00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:21.570\nAnd so I'd start a question with something like, \"This is probably all wet or\n\n906\n00:43:21.570 --> 00:43:22.400\nthis probably\n\n907\n00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:24.800\ndoesn't make good sense, but I'm wondering what.\"\n\n908\n00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:29.840\nAnd she pulled me aside one time and she said, \"Never discount yourself.\n\n909\n00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:32.870\nNever discount the question that you're going to ask or the information that\n\n910\n00:43:32.870 --> 00:43:33.480\nyou're going\n\n911\n00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:39.280\nto share because then you set people up to expect to discount you anyway.\"\n\n912\n00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.240\nAnd I passed that piece of advice on as well.\n\n913\n00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:45.680\nSo you asked me for three and I've given you maybe half a dozen.\n\n914\n00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:46.680\nThey're all good.\n\n915\n00:43:46.680 --> 00:43:47.680\nThey're all good.\n\n916\n00:43:47.680 --> 00:43:53.250\nI have to say in my career, I've had the great pleasure of meeting many\n\n917\n00:43:53.250 --> 00:43:54.800\ninspirational people,\n\n918\n00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:58.960\npeople who've accomplished more than you could ever imagine.\n\n919\n00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:02.280\nBut I've never met anybody more inspirational than you.\n\n920\n00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:06.940\nWhat you've done with your life, how you've grown as a person, how you\n\n921\n00:44:06.940 --> 00:44:08.200\nbasically lifted\n\n922\n00:44:08.200 --> 00:44:14.400\nyourself up from the most difficult circumstance and just made yourself into\n\n923\n00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:15.720\none of the great\n\n924\n00:44:15.720 --> 00:44:19.240\nleaders that I've ever worked with is truly amazing.\n\n925\n00:44:19.240 --> 00:44:22.590\nSo I want to thank you for that and thank you for being that inspiration and\n\n926\n00:44:22.590 --> 00:44:23.160\nthank you\n\n927\n00:44:23.160 --> 00:44:24.560\nfor being on this podcast.\n\n928\n00:44:24.560 --> 00:44:26.280\nI really appreciate it.\n\n929\n00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:27.280\nThank you, David.\n\n930\n00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:41.920\nWell, I got to say, Bonnie exemplifies something I see a lot in great leaders.\n\n931\n00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:42.920\nIt's this.\n\n932\n00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:45.960\nThey're confident in their own skills and the value they offer.\n\n933\n00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:51.210\nAnd at the same time, they're also incredibly humble, always listening and\n\n934\n00:44:51.210 --> 00:44:52.600\neager to learn.\n\n935\n00:44:52.600 --> 00:44:57.160\nAnd if you ask me, having the ability to do both comes down to respect.\n\n936\n00:44:57.160 --> 00:45:00.200\nYou've got to respect your own value and worth.\n\n937\n00:45:00.200 --> 00:45:03.920\nLike Bonnie says, not let anyone else define you.\n\n938\n00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:08.200\nAnd at the same time, you've got to respect those around you by truly listening\n\n939\n00:45:08.200 --> 00:45:08.680\nto them\n\n940\n00:45:08.680 --> 00:45:12.200\nand working together even when you disagree.\n\n941\n00:45:12.200 --> 00:45:15.200\nThat's exactly how you take people with you.\n\n942\n00:45:15.200 --> 00:45:19.810\nSo as you go through the week, pay attention to how respect influences how you\n\n943\n00:45:19.810 --> 00:45:20.440\nwork and\n\n944\n00:45:20.440 --> 00:45:21.600\nlead.\n\n945\n00:45:21.600 --> 00:45:26.820\nAsk yourself, how well do you value and respect your own contributions and\n\n946\n00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:27.640\nskills?\n\n947\n00:45:27.640 --> 00:45:30.320\nHow could you show your team more respect?\n\n948\n00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:34.160\nHow can you help the people around you respect each other?\n\n949\n00:45:34.160 --> 00:45:38.280\nWhen you tune into the powerful role that respect plays in the life of a leader\n\n950\n00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:38.880\n, you'll\n\n951\n00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.720\nfind all kinds of opportunities to grow and excel.\n\n952\n00:45:42.720 --> 00:45:44.840\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n953\n00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:50.080\nWhat we learned today is the great leaders set a tone of respect.\n\n954\n00:45:50.080 --> 00:45:53.770\nComing up next on how leaders lead is none other than the professional golfer\n\n955\n00:45:53.770 --> 00:45:54.240\nJustin\n\n956\n00:45:54.240 --> 00:45:58.560\nThomas, the winner of last year's PGA Championship.\n\n957\n00:45:58.560 --> 00:46:02.880\nAnd this conversation is perfectly timed because guess what?\n\n958\n00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:06.720\nNext week is a 2023 PGA Championship.\n\n959\n00:46:06.720 --> 00:46:10.760\nSo be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire entire\n\n960\n00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:11.760\nconversation.\n\n961\n00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:41.720\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of Howly\n\n962\n00:46:41.720 --> 00:46:55.840\nto the end.\n\n963\n00:46:55.840 --> 00:47:03.840\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n964\n00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:13.840\n[BLANK_AUDIO]","

David Novak 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. You know, when I think about it, I'm not sure I know anyone with a more interesting and wide ranging career than my guest today, Barney Hill. For three decades, Barney has been successful in pretty much every area you can lead in business, government, education, and even philanthropy. She's currently the co founder of icon blue, a top branding company in LA. And if all that weren't enough, she's also served on over a dozen fortune 500 boards, including yums board, so I've gotten the chance to see the extraordinary presence Bonnie brings to the room. She's accomplished so much in her career, and she's gleaned so much about what great leaders and great organizations have in common. So you're about to get an absolute goldmine of wisdom and some big insights. But I also want you to listen for how Barney puts a high priority on respect. When respect is your guiding principle. Believe me, it's a game changer. You listen more closely, your awareness and understanding go to another level, you know how to navigate conflicts and tough situations. And ultimately, you earn the respect of everyone around you, just like Barney has. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Barney Hill.

One, I always like to start at the beginning. You know, tell us about your upbringing.

Bonnie Hill 1:51

Well, David, I'm like many other people that I know of, I was born into a dysfunctional family. Father left the day I was born mother couldn't handle that became alcoholic. And so I learned how to take care of myself and my mother at a very early age. And those were some difficult times, sometimes we were homeless. Many times we didn't know exactly where our next meal would come from. But through all that, there were many things I learned from my mother, I eventually came to a place where I realized that I had to mother's this sober mother that taught me so many things about life and how to deal with myself as an individual. And then the other mother, you know, that could not handle herself and didn't couldn't handle life. And so that was sort of an early beginning for

David Novak 2:40

Wow. Well, let's talk just bought what the sober mother taught you, Bonnie. That's an interesting, interesting concept. What were those big insights that she taught you?

Bonnie Hill 2:51

That insight came sort of later in years, but among the things she taught me was, it was okay to be raggedy, but it was not okay to be dirty. So even though I didn't have the best of clothes, and they were hand me downs, they always had to be clean. Another thing she taught me is you never stepped outside of the house, with the rollers in your hair, or your head tied up. And she said, You must always be presentable. And then the other thing, and one of the final things that really has stuck with me is no matter where you live, no matter how bad it is, and we lived in store fronts, and with other people, and in some dire straits, she but your house had to always be clean. It could be poor, but it could not be dirty. And so those were things that have stayed with me for a long time. And sometimes it makes me a little anal.

David Novak 3:41

Do you remember your first official job where you actually got paid as a kid? And what did it teach you?

Bonnie Hill 3:48

My first official job where I got paid as a kid was in my high school McClymonds High School in Oakland, California. And that was because when they put me in a typing class, which I wanted, because I had asked to get out of college prep and to get into something that would help me get a job, and they let me work in the vice principal's office. And they paid me $12 a month, which helped me to one save up enough money to have a dress for graduation, and sometimes help with food for my mother and myself. So that was my first paid job. I was a junior high school student and got paid for working in the vice principal's office.

David Novak 4:29

What did that teach you?

Bonnie Hill 4:31

It taught me that it was important to work because my goal was always to get my mother and myself off of welfare, because by this time, we were on welfare. And it taught me that you could work and that you could make a living and even though it wasn't the kind of living you might have wanted. Perhaps it wasn't like everyone else's life, but it was living and we were able to eat so it taught me that I had to work in order to eat. And that was a great lesson.

David Novak 4:59

That's A good correlation there. You know, you've had a fascinating career. And I want to get into that, but but tell us a story about how you got your career going. That will tell us a lot about the kind of person you are.

Bonnie Hill 5:13

Well, I did get clerical jobs along the way, David, I worked at the Oakland Army Base, a friend had stolen the announcement off of the bulletin board and given it to me, so I took the test and, and passed the civil service exam. So that was my first real, real job. And I was just turning 18. And there I learned traffic management. And one of the generals there saw me standing in the aisles, filing. And he said, young lady, what are you doing standing out here filing and I said, Well, I can't afford to go to school, and this is the next best thing. And he said, I'll tell you what, you go to school nights. And I will see to it, that you get the opportunity to earn more money to move up on the job. So that was an innovation as so I would work all day, I get a bus all the way to San Francisco, to go to school, and get home at 1130 to 12 o'clock at night and had to be on call for ports of call, it would sometimes be 435 o'clock in the morning when we have to show up. So that was the beginning of knowing that you had to have a bit more education, to be able for me to be able to get a job that was going to be significant. I think the job you've thought about was I left the army base and I went to work at Mills College as a secretary. And it was there working as a secretary that my husband at that time had a severe heart attack, he did not die at that time. But I was becoming the breadwinner. I had a small child by this time. And so that's when I wanted to become a student at Mills College. And you know the story fast forward the dean of admissions when I spoke with her, she let me become a student on a part time basis. And the President of Mills College allowed me to go without paying tuition. And so at Mills College, I went from being a secretary to an administrative assistant, to Assistant Dean of Student Services, to interim head of the ethnic studies department. And then that led to my jobs from there on. So I owe them a great deal in terms of allowing me to grow in a four year period of time. At that same time, instead of taking the 10 years they thought it would take to finish my bachelor's, I did it in two and a half years, going to community colleges at night taking care of a sick husband and taking care of my daughter, as well. And then when I finished that, my counselor at Mills said, Well, you have to go for the Masters. And I thought you're kidding. But I did. She called I went for the Masters. And then my tutor at Cal State, Hayward said, Well, you're going to have to go for the doctorate. And so the rest is kind of history there. But a lot of people who intervened you know, when you wrote the book, taking people with you, a lot of people took me with them in that way.

David Novak 8:05

That's great. Bonnie, you're so multi dimensional, you know, you started icon blue. It's a brand marketing company. You've been CEO of times mirror Charitable Foundation, the Head of Public Affairs for the LA Times, the Dean of School of Commerce at the University of Virginia, not too bad. And the Assistant Secretary in the US Department of Education, and you've been a special adviser to George W. Bush for Consumer Affairs. Yes, that's just such an unbelievable resume. Which of those areas Did you enjoy the most and why?

Bonnie Hill 8:37

I believe I really enjoyed most working for President George HW Bush, and was right after I had served in the Reagan administration. And President Bush became the president. I worked with him on the campaign he swore me in when I became Assistant Secretary at the Department of Education, and spending time with his family at Kennebunkport, Maine was a real treat for me, because I saw the human side of a president, those were really good times Good Times in Washington. And that's probably because I made a decision early on in my career that I would never work at any organization or with anyone that I didn't respect, enjoy, and that they respected me.

David Novak 9:19

What really drew you to that conclusion? I mean, what was it that made you say, that was such a key thing to do?

Bonnie Hill 9:26

I think, you know, when you come from the kind of background I did, people try to define you, and they tell you, who you are, and what you can do, and how far you can go. That's kind of a natural thing, or you can't do that, because and so I developed a theme that said, Never let anyone else define you. And I did that when I was working at Mills College when the students there would come to my office and sit around on the floor to just chat. And that's when I was a secretary. And they would ask questions like, Who are the most important people Pull in your life. And we as women tend to go through a thing where we say, Oh, my husband, my children, and we never say ourselves and I caught myself. And one day I said to them, no, let me start all over again. I'm the most important person in my life. Because if I want to take care of all of those I care about, I must first take care of me. And I can never let anyone else define who I am. Or define me. And you should never let anyone else do that as well.

David Novak 10:30

Oh, that's great. You know, you had a lot of different jobs, and which one area the you think challenged you the most and helped you grow the most as a leader.

Bonnie Hill 10:41

I think it was my first really professional job at Kaiser Aluminum and chemical Corporation. I went there as an Administrative Manager to the Senior Vice President for planning and control. And he asked me to take a look at the Kaiser Center complex. When he was going to Hawaii, he and his family for the holidays, I had only been working for him several months. And when he came back, I shared with him what I thought this was high rise, real estate development, property management. And I don't know where all of that came from. But when he came back, I told him what I thought. And he said, thank you. And two weeks later, he called me and he said, Congratulations, the board of directors has just made you vice president and general manager of Kaiser center, Inc. And that was the beginning. And he said tomorrow morning, you meet with your full staff over there. What David That was scary. There were eight Caucasian gentleman who between them had well over 200 years of service, they told me that if you turn them around and pull their drawers down, you found the big case stamped right in the rear. And that was what I was gonna have to deal with. And so I thought about, you know, when I look back, you talked about how important it is to give people the credit that they need. And I remember telling them, when I met with him, I said, Look, any one of you could do this job. But for whatever reason, I've been appointed, I need you to work with me, I need you to try me. And if within a year that hasn't worked for you, I promise you, you will get the package you would get if you left today. And they all stayed. And the one who had hoped to become the Vice President and General Manager a year later came to me and he said, I've really tried this Barney, you're a great leader. He said, But this is very hard for me. Is that package still available? And I said absolutely. And so that was the first real professional corporate job that I had that I think prepared me for the presidential appointments that came later and all of the other things, I learned a great deal from my boss that was there. And this is interesting, David, when he he told me that I had been appointed to do this. I said, okay, and I never asked another question. And a week later he came in, he said, Bonnie, you've you've not asked me what your compensation would be. You have not asked me anything about what this means. And I said to him, I know you'll be fair. And so he said, Okay, let me tell you what you said, this is what your salary is. These are your stock options, your bonuses, I didn't know what stock options were David. I didn't know how to do that. And he took a yellow tablet, and taught me all the things I needed to know to do that job.

David Novak 13:24

That's great. How much Barney did your leadership approach change with the different responsibilities that you had throughout your career? different jobs, different places?

Bonnie Hill 13:35

I think the real thing was I learned that no matter how smart I thought I was. And we all think we're pretty smart, that I could not do the jobs alone, that without a team that believed in me, that trusted me to do the right thing on their behalf, that I could never have any accomplishments that I dreamed about, you know, as I would look at each job. And the other thing was, there was never a job that I felt I couldn't do. So all of the things that I've done through my life I wasn't trained to do in school, they were things that I just decided, if someone's going to give me a chance, then I must be able to do that because someone believes I can do that. And that has been sort of a foundation of the lack of fear for taking on new challenges.

David Novak 14:23

How did you dig into each new job? I mean, how did you go into a new assignment? What advice could you give to people?

Bonnie Hill 14:30

The first thing I did was to spend time with each of the people who would be reporting to me, I wanted to learn about the organization. I wanted to know how they felt about their job, and what kinds of things would help make them better as well, and any advice that they had for me, so it was really important not to go in with an attitude that Oh, I know exactly what I'm doing because I've been brought in to lead you guys but it's I need you to help me to lead. And I need you to tell me what I can do to help you help me. That was important, especially in the government positions in the three presidential appointments each time you go in. And what happens is, there are people there who have been there for years, and they have gone through a whole lot of presidential appointees. And so they're going to be there when you leave. And so it was important for me to know what they saw through all the years they had been there, and what was missing with each of the presidential appointees who came in to be the leaders, and what advice they would give to us. And so I developed teamwork approach. And it really did help me learn a great deal.

David Novak 15:51

What was your first board of directors job, Bonnie,

Bonnie Hill 15:54

my first board of directors job was Niagara Mohawk in upstate New York, I got a call from search firm that said that this company was interested in having me serve on their board of directors. And I have to tell you, David, I really didn't have a great concept or an idea of what a board of directors was, I had a little bit of knowledge from Kaiser Aluminum, but not enough. I hadn't been on the board. So they said, well, the chairman would like to come in and meet with you. So I said, that's fine. So he flew in to meet with me. We met in Washington, Washington National. And he walked in, and the first thing he said was, well, I wasn't really looking for a woman or an African American, but they tell me you have all the skills and the necessary experience. So I guess that's okay. And that's the way we started that conversation. Well, they were looking for someone that had a background in Consumer Affairs, or environmental affairs, and I had served as President Bush's Special Advisor for Consumer Affairs. And then I had taken on a job heading a non profit that was an environmental program for disadvantaged youth that had begun under the Bush administration. So fast forward, I became a member of his board, he had two other women on the board. And so I had the opportunity to work with other women on a board on my very first board.

David Novak 17:19

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Bonnie in just a moment. As you can clearly tell, Barney excels at stepping into tough situations and getting people to listen and understand each other. That's such a vital skill for leaders. And it reminds me of a fantastic conversation I had with major league baseball commissioner, Rob Manfred. Now, Rob also knows a thing or two about how to find common ground. And I love what he has to say about it when he joined me on the podcast,

Rob Manfred 17:48

you have an obligation to go in a room and exchange views in a robust way. And try in good faith to find common ground and understand the people that you want to lead and what their needs are, not just what you need from them, but what they need from you.

David Novak 18:06

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Rob, Episode 91, here on how leaders lead. You know, you're now one of the foremost experts on corporate governance with your experience on boards of many top companies, Home Depot, Hershey's Albertsons, yum, many others, you know, what made you decide to start your governance and policy consulting company? And what do you hope to achieve with your clients?

Bonnie Hill 18:36

Well, I'm gonna tell you, first of all, David that I'm semi retired for the most part, so

David Novak 18:42

I know what semi retirement means for you.

Bonnie Hill 18:46

But you know, what happened was my second or third board third board, I believe, was Louisiana Pacific, in Portland. And what had happened it you know, as a Forest Products Company, and I had not been on the board a year when the chairman walked in, and told us that the company, all of us were being indicted by a federal grand jury. And he said, you'll have to form a special committee to deal with that. And he walked out the door. So there were only five outside directors. And each of them looked at me and said, One said, Well, I'm a politician. The other one, you know, I'll never forget, Chuck Yeager said, I'm a test pilot, and he was a forester. He was very good with forestry. And another one said, I was a treasurer of the US and another one said, you know, while I'm this, and they all said, You're dean of a business school, so you chair this committee, and that's how I got involved with governance. I worked with some of the foremost lawyers in the country, and some former justices as well. And I learned the importance of the value that the company develops for shareholders, the importance of honesty in everything that you do, the importance of transparency and When we got through that we had class action lawsuits and all kinds of things. But I learned so much at that time about governance, and about board work that I had never anticipated. And that's how I really got into the governance side. It was experience, and it was I've been in the fire at the time and having to get through it.

David Novak 20:21

Can you tell us a story of a company that you really helped with the advice and experience that you've you've picked up?

Bonnie Hill 20:28

You know, I think that Home Depot was probably the one that most people recall my involvement with an engagement with, because there was a period of time that we went through some very tough times. And I learned from the best as you may recall, Ken Langone was lead director. And as we were transitioning, Ken, and the NAM Governance Committee decided that I would be a good person to become the lead director, because I was chairing the compensation committee and dealing with shareholders, who were very angry during the time that we were having our challenges. And so Ken coached me a lot. And I learned a lot from him. Because he's always felt you should be transparent, the shareholders are important, and all the employees that are embarrassed by anything that the board or the company does, are important. So that was a tremendous experience for me. And it was one where, you know, I had to meet with dissident shareholders and with, you know, unions and with people who were really upset with Home Depot, and we came out of that, because the board was very supportive of the direction that we were taking. And, you know, they were right there, they helped. And yes, I, you know, had to be out front and sort of take on a lot of the flack and some of the leadership things. But you can't do that without a great board, and without a great management team. And so that was

David Novak 22:01

the beginning. What do you think is the role of the board of directors, the board of

Bonnie Hill 22:05

directors has to understand, I think, in just about every instance, that it is not management, it is oversight, the board is responsible for overseeing the strategic plan, but management does the strategic plan and owns it. And so the board has to work with management to make certain that they agree with and can support that direction, in terms of the strategy, and then to make certain that they stay the course, you know, we always hear that one of the major jobs of the board is the hiring and firing of the CEO. Yes, that's true. But once you've done that, the board has to recognize that they have selected a leader, that is the leader support that leader, and if that's not the right leader, the board then has to make a decision as to how to do that, and are how to make a change if necessary. And most often, because they're responsible for the hiring of the CEO is going to be a good relationship, that will work well. But the board has to recognize it is the arm of the shareholders, its obligation is to the shareholders. And its obligation is also to all of those people that work within the companies to help make it the great company that it is, you know, and hopefully it is now I'm thinking of yum. And you know, many other companies that I've worked with, and I think they're all great companies. And again, as I said, I wouldn't serve on the board of a company that I didn't respect. If I didn't respect the CEO, or the leadership team, you know,

David Novak 23:33

each of the companies you served on, obviously different different categories. But did you find any commonalities among the best performers?

Bonnie Hill 23:42

I did, the commonalities that I found were one the tone at the top, that's always important. What was the tone that was being said at the top, who is the leader, and is that leader and inspirational leader, where people feel that the leader cares about them, cares about the company and understands his or her role as it relates to not just them but also the shareholders and all stakeholders. I always looked at how the CEO interfaced with the head of human resources, or in the yum case, the chief people officer with the general counsel, and with investor relations, you know, those are our key positions, the Chief Financial Officer, that's a team that's a core team that has to be able to work together and the relationship has to be a good one. And if you find that the CEO discount his general counsel, or the Chief Financial Officer, then you've got a challenge. And so that's what I always looked for going into a company. How important

David Novak 24:44

do you think recognition is is a value that drive deep in an organization's culture?

Bonnie Hill 24:50

I think it's key. You know, if people do not feel valued, then they don't do the best when they go to work every day. Many people get up dreading the fact that they do have to go to work, because they don't feel that they're valued as an employee, or as a member of the team. And that's critical. I mean, I think, you know, you hit on it with, you know, your old great one. And I, and as I read through that, I was talking with my husband, Walter, and I said, you know, here are things that when I look back, you know, that made such a big difference in all of the things I did in my life, I wasn't smart enough to know it's what I was doing. But I was smart enough to know that I couldn't do things on my own, that you had to bring people along, and that they had to feel valued. And you had to recognize that value. And I still have the clacking teeth, David, that you gave me. Gave me the younger. And, and then Greg Craig came behind you. And he gave me another yum award. So I got great awards. And it's critical, it is critical to have a recognition.

David Novak 26:06

You know, you've seen many leaders, but what would you say would be the single most important trait of the successful leaders you've seen? What do you think, really, is that that essential,

Bonnie Hill 26:17

the word that comes to my mind is humility, the ability to listen to others and to engage others and to take advice. And that's a very difficult thing for many leaders, because they fail many times that they're leading because they're supposed to know it all. And that's just not the case. So I think you have to have a good sense of who you are. But enough humility to be able to listen to others, and recognize that you can always learn when you stop learning, you cease to grow. And you see sullied

David Novak 26:52

What do you think is the biggest reasons why leaders derail

Bonnie Hill 26:57

arrogance? I mean, I think arrogance is one of the main things that causes many leaders to derail I've watched through the years. And they wouldn't say they were arrogant. But it's this tendency to want to make certain that people know that you know it all. And therefore, many people that could support you and help you no longer do that, and people will let you derail, and they will pull back and someone, in many instances have just enough knowledge to be able to say, hey, pull your coattail and say this is happening, or this is what's going on in the organization. And so you need to sort of do a reset, hit the reset button, I know that I'll use the example of Home Depot, the directors were required to visit stores, X number of stores per quarter, to really find out what was going on. And then they'll come back and just to talk in generalities about things that needed to be changed, or things that they found whether it was a dirty store, or poor morale, or whatever the case, and you know how important that is, it's important to be able to listen, and to have enough humility, you know,

David Novak 28:09

Barney, diversity and inclusion is a real hot topic today. And it's important for every company to really make it a high value, do you have a unique perspective on why it's so valuable?

Bonnie Hill 28:21

I don't know that I have a unique perspective, David, but the reason I think it is valuable, is sometimes you know how they say no man is an island. And when everyone thinks alike, and looks alike, then they just marched down a certain road, and never looked to the left or to the right. When you bring in people who have different perspectives, regardless of what those perspectives are. They're different. They represent either your shareholders or your employees or, or your suppliers, it's really important to have the ability to hear different perspectives. And so in a boardroom, you know, when you're a global companies such as Yum, you know, it's important to hear global perspectives. And so you have to include people that bring that different perspectives, the same with your management team. Because all of the people that you're serving, and those that make the company great, those that buy the products, or use the services need to make sure that the company can relate to them in some way. I would say that's important. I recently

David Novak 29:30

watched the video in preparation for this podcast, Barney, where you received a lifetime achievement award and people recognized your impact and, you know, I want you just to react to some of the comments. You know, one you are described as a woman who's generous has grace and guts. How can you have grace?

Bonnie Hill 29:51

I have a term David, that I share with all of those I coach and it is always leave people All. So it means that you can disagree with people, you can have differences of opinion. But you want to make certain that when you leave the conversation, the person doesn't feel diminished in any way, that they feel that they've been treated with respect, and that you have respectfully disagreed with them. And then you work on trying to come together in some way where you can work together. And that might be what they're talking about.

David Novak 30:27

Yeah. Someone also said that you rejoice when you see someone you mentored, make an achievement and have success. Can you share with us one of your favorite mentoring success stories?

Bonnie Hill 30:39

Well, yes, a number of them come to mind, there are a number of, of women who have ended up on boards, but let me tell you, one, that really makes me feel good. I didn't completely mentor this person, but another woman that I had mentored one meet to meet her. And so we met and I liked her a great deal. And when I was leaving the board of AK steel, you know, I said, Look, guys, there's a person I'd like for you to meet, that might be someone you'd like to consider. And I didn't say they knew. They knew she was female. But I didn't say anything else. I just said, here's the experience that she has, this is her background, so forth, and so on. And they met her fell in love with her and said, You didn't tell us she was African American. And I said, that wasn't important. What was important was that she had the skill set that you need it, period. And that made me feel so good, David, that I didn't feel a need to say, Oh, here's an African American woman that I want you to meet, that you may want to consider, because I'm going off the board. And I'm African American, never had to go through any of that.

David Novak 31:51

That's great. You know, you're also described on his video, which is very glowing, by the way, you know, that, that as calm and purposeful in the boardroom? You know, well, how do you remain calm, especially in times of conflict?

Bonnie Hill 32:07

You talk to yourself. What do you mean? Well, you know, I tell myself that when all is said and done, we still have to work together. And so my daughter had a say, and she would say, Mom, you and I can be having a conversation. And you're just really easygoing, and so forth, and so on. But then when we go into, I asked you advice, you go into a business mode, I thought, okay, I do do that. And I, I've seen myself do that in the boardroom. But what it is, is, I want to make certain that I hear what is going on, and that I pay close attention, as opposed to react. And David, you're very good at that. So you know what that's like. I mean, I have seen you do that, you know, when a lot of people would get angry, the important thing is not to get angry, to recognize that, that everyone has the right to their opinion. And then to try to work through the issues on behalf of shareholders and the employees.

David Novak 33:10

Another person said that You're so thoughtful in what you say, and perceptive about what's going on around you. Do you have any tips on how to develop skills like that?

Bonnie Hill 33:23

I don't really I think listening is important. You know, I often joke about the fact that I have at least two of my degrees were in psychology, and that, you know, you learn to read body language to watch facial expressions, and to make sure that, you know, if you said something, and you can see a reaction from a person that you know, that this has affected them, that you be able to pull back. Even the layperson, you know, can pull back and listen, and then, you know, take time to respond sometimes. And I've been guilty of this, speaking too soon, when you haven't heard what people need to say. And then the other thing is allowing other people to weigh in and have an opinion before, you know, coming forth, you know, with your own, especially if you're in a position of leadership, and they're looking to you to do that. So I tried to listen to make certain that I've heard a number of different perspectives before suggesting that there are things that people may want to consider. And that's hard sometimes because I'm a Scorpio and I react quickly most of the time. So I have to

David Novak 34:35

get along. I'm a Scorpio Scorpios either love each other or hey, that's

Bonnie Hill 34:39

right, and my husband's a Scorpio Daymond so that that tells you we have some fun times here at home.

David Novak 34:48

Because you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who wants to learn how to lead well. But there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and charge you $500 are $1,000 or heck, even $20,000 to try and show you how to lead. That's just not right. If you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to something that will truly help you. And it shouldn't cost a fortune. So I want you to go to how leaders lead.com and start my leadership class. It's really in truly free. And after you take this class, you're going to feel more confident in your role, and you'll be on your way to get the big things done with your team. Go check it out at how leaders lead.com

We both have the same birthday, October 30. What characteristic do you love about the Scorpio that you're glad you have?

Bonnie Hill 35:48

We never stop? Until we have the answer we need we'll do the deepest dive necessary to get to the answer.

David Novak 35:57

Well, you were on my board and I can tell you, you certainly lived up to that. Scorpio trade. My trade is believe me? I don't if somebody crosses me, I never ever forget it.

Bonnie Hill 36:12

What day that I have learned to forgive I read a book that said forgiving what you can't forget?

David Novak 36:22

Well, I might forget it. I might forgive somebody but I'm not sure. You're not gonna forget it.

Bonnie Hill 36:29

That's right. I don't forget either. So

David Novak 36:33

every leader has their their ups and downs. But what's been one of your most challenging days in the past couple of years? And and what do you learn from it?

Bonnie Hill 36:44

In the past couple of years, I've been serving on several different boards, but only one public company board. And it really makes a difference to me to try to pull back and let others lead. Because I tend to be kind of like a bulldog. You know, I jump out in front. And I take charge. And I'm learning how not to do that.

David Novak 37:12

How have you learned to get better and better, you know, speaking and learning how to how do you get better better at showing up as a leader? What's continuous improvement look like for Barney Hill.

Bonnie Hill 37:24

Continuous improvement for me is staying current with leadership practices, listening to others reading a lot of books, tuning in on occasion to how leaders lead and watching. You know, different people that you interview, talk about their leadership skills. I think learning really is a constant process. And when we seek to learn, we seek to live.

David Novak 37:56

You know, Barney does spend a lot of fun, and I'd like to have a little bit more fun with a lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this?

Bonnie Hill 38:03

I don't know. You know, I'm older now, David. So I

David Novak 38:08

know you're not better. What are three words others would use to describe you.

Bonnie Hill 38:15

Humility, learned, learned, you know, you know what I mean by that? And probably bullish.

David Novak 38:25

If you could be someone beside yourself for a day, who would it be and why?

Bonnie Hill 38:32

I have no one else that I'd rather be than me. And because I'm living my best life now. And I've had great experiences, and I have great children and great grandchildren, and a great life. There's no one else I'd rather be.

David Novak 38:47

What's your biggest pet peeve

Bonnie Hill 38:51

is when people don't put things back where they belong in the house, or wherever I go if I go to someone else's home, and things are out of place, and it looks like somebody said something down where it shouldn't have been, I have to talk to myself to keep from stepping in and doing it. So my pet peeve is disorder.

David Novak 39:12

You've worked with presidents of the United States, what's something about being President of the United States that most people wouldn't know?

Bonnie Hill 39:21

That they are human beings the same as we are? And that David they put their pants on or their skirt on the same way we do. And I've had an opportunity to be around one of the presidents who was busy still in steak off of my plate, you know, because he wasn't allowed to eat steak and they had to have lobster. So just knowing that they too are just like us was really a good thing.

David Novak 39:52

Who was that president that was robbing your play?

Bonnie Hill 39:56

That was George HW Bush, the elder Bush Way at his home in Kennebunkport.

David Novak 40:02

If you turn on the radio in your car, what would we hear?

Bonnie Hill 40:07

You would hear spa music?

David Novak 40:09

What's something about you a few people would know.

Bonnie Hill 40:13

Maybe few people would know that I have delightful.

David Novak 40:17

Okay, that's the end of the lightning round. And just a few more questions. We'll wrap this up. You mentioned him just a second ago was something about leadership you learned from President HW bush.

Bonnie Hill 40:29

I learned humility from him. And I learned to write personal notes from him. He always wrote personal notes and sent you little cards and notes. And you know, you, you did that also, David. So there's a similarity there. But that was one of the things I learned from him. There's nothing like a personal handwritten note.

David Novak 40:54

What's something about leadership you learned from President Reagan? Trust but

Bonnie Hill 40:58

verify.

David Novak 41:02

And, Barney, as you look ahead, what's your unfinished business?

Bonnie Hill 41:06

I have no unfinished business, David. You know, if I left this world today, I would feel that I've lived a good life, I have accomplished more than I ever thought I could. And then that my children, thank goodness will carry on the legacy.

David Novak 41:23

That is fantastic that, you know, I just wish everybody could say that, you know, what are three bits of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders?

Bonnie Hill 41:32

I would suggest that whenever they go into a situation, any situation, interview, job interview, discussion group, that they do their homework before going into the situation, if they're meeting with someone, you know, there's no excuse not to know who you're meeting with, and why you're meeting with them. So be knowledgeable, be prepared. The other thing is to be open, be prepared to listen. And to have an objective. When you listen that if you're going to ask questions, make certain that you have listens, that you've gained enough information that you believe you know, what it is you want, from a particular meeting, and then ask questions, do not be afraid to ask questions. Even sometimes, what might be what might seem to be a dumb question. You know, one of my mentors, my first one at Kaiser center, he told me that one of the things I want you to do is Never be afraid to ask what you consider to be the dumb question. And he said, I know that, you know, that women and African Americans tend to think that if they ask a question, that seems to be a dumb when people look down on them, he said, don't fall into that trap. And so it's very important not to fall into the trap of not wanting to ask the question that you need an information from. And he told me and I've passed it on, never sit in a room in a meeting without knowing what's going on, ask the questions. And then I got another piece of advice from my friend, Catherine Downing, who was president and publisher of the LA Times. And she caught me one time because I always wanted to sort of backup and make sure people didn't think that I thought I knew at all. And so I'd start a question with something like, this is probably all wet, or this probably doesn't make good sense. But I'm wondering what, and she pulled me aside one time and she said, Never discount yourself, never discount the question that you're going to ask or the information that you're going to share. Because then you set people up to expect to discount you anyway. And I'll pass that piece of advice on as well. So you asked me for three and I've given you maybe half a dozen,

David Novak 43:45

they're all good. They're all good. You know, I have to say, in my career, I've had the great pleasure of meeting many inspirational people, people who've who've accomplished more than you could you could ever imagine. But I've never met anybody more inspirational. You, you know, what you've done with your life, how you've grown as a person, how you basically lifted yourself up from the most difficult circumstance. And, you know, just made yourself into one of the great leaders that I've ever worked with is truly amazing. So I want to thank you for that. And thank you for being that inspiration. And thank you for being on this podcast. I really appreciate it.

Bonnie Hill 44:25

Thank you David.

David Novak 44:36

Well, I gotta say Barney exemplifies something I see a lot in great leaders. It's this. They're confident in their own skills and the value they offer. And at the same time, they're also incredibly humble, always listening and eager to learn. And if you ask me having the ability to do both comes down to respect. You've got to respect your own value and worth like Bonnie says, not let anyone else define you. And at the same time, you've got to respect those around you by truly listening to them and working together even when you disagree. That's exactly how you take people with you. So as you go through the week, pay attention to how respect influences how you work, and lead. Ask yourself, how well do you value and respect your own contributions and skills? How could you show your team more respect? How can you help the people around you respect each other? When you tune into the powerful role that respect plays in the life of a leader, you'll find all kinds of opportunities to grow and excel. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders set a tone of respect. Coming up next on how leaders lead is none other than the professional golfer Justin Thomas, the winner of last year's PGA Championship and this conversation is perfectly time because guess what, next week is a 2023 PGA Championship.

Justin Thomas 46:06

When I'm playing my best, I only am thinking about what I'm doing at that time. And that shot I'm trying to hit and I accept things very well. I'm not hard on myself. I don't get down on myself versus when I'm kind of a you could call it kind of like Candyland rom just all over the place. As soon as you start thinking about anything, that's not what's going on at that time. It never goes well. So you would think I'd stopped doing it. But it's obviously easier said than done. But, like anything, it's a work in progress.

David Novak 46:32

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen and while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

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