[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_138":-5,"_139":-5,"_140":141,"_142":143,"_144":145},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/3011/ditch-the-hierarchy","id",3011,"title","Ditch the hierarchy","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.680\nBut along the way, boy, it was a lot of hierarchy.\n\n2\n00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:07.320\nWe had seven layers of vice presidents.\n\n3\n00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:09.000\nYou were a junior assistant vice president.\n\n4\n00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:12.160\nYou got a certain size office, and then you became an assistant vice president.\n\n5\n00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:14.800\nYou got a bigger one.\n\n6\n00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:18.970\nAnd I just did not think that that was ultimately going to let us get the most\n\n7\n00:00:18.970 --> 00:00:19.840\nout of all of\n\n8\n00:00:19.840 --> 00:00:20.920\nus.\n\n9\n00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:22.960\nSo we ultimately did a couple of things.\n\n10\n00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:25.920\nOne is we changed our dress code to two words, dress appropriately.\n\n11\n00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:29.450\nWe used to have literally when I joined here in 1988 a handbook of what you\n\n12\n00:00:29.450 --> 00:00:30.000\ncould wear\n\n13\n00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.320\nwhen.\n\n14\n00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200\nAnd we kind of blew up all the vice president steps.\n\n15\n00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:37.840\nAnd then we said, well, if we're going to do that, let's blow up the offices as\n\n16\n00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:38.200\nwell.\n\n17\n00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:42.830\nSo the big giant chairman's office I used to have is now a conference room that\n\n18\n00:00:42.830 --> 00:00:43.360\nanyone\n\n19\n00:00:43.360 --> 00:00:45.080\ncan book and use.\n\n20\n00:00:45.080 --> 00:00:48.860\nAnd I think it's actually done a really good job of helping flatten how the\n\n21\n00:00:48.860 --> 00:00:49.680\norganization\n\n22\n00:00:49.680 --> 00:00:53.230\nworks and just making it more comfortable for people to be kind of fully\n\n23\n00:00:53.230 --> 00:00:54.240\nengaged wherever\n\n24\n00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:55.440\nthey are in the organization.\n\n25\n00:00:55.440 --> 00:00:59.480\nSo I just thought that the strong hierarchical stuff was holding us back.\n\n26\n00:00:59.480 --> 00:01:01.280\nAnd we made that decision.\n\n27\n00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:05.120\nGosh, six, seven years ago now is before COVID even.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",184708,"end_time",250789,"keywords","Culture, hierarchy, organizational design, bureaucracy","slug","ditch-the-hierarchy","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","Svho3JRMU5msHIdjbg4sPzM5rW22ysa2PKLkREqiNjE","mux_asset_id","eejU02Yp8aR01lX1wED2CXXV1KvypV9nIHPTbYn9501Rnw","leader_id",241,"episode_id",393,"updated_at","2025-08-21T17:30:49.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/3011/ditch-the-hierarchy","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_102":103,"_104":105,"_106":107,"_25":108,"_109":110,"_61":111,"_58":111,"_112":113,"_68":114,"_39":115,"_116":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_117":118,"_90":119,"_44":120,"_121":122,"_123":124,"_46":-5,"_125":126,"_127":128,"_94":129,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":-5,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_76":77,"_78":79,"_80":81,"_82":83,"_84":-5,"_85":-5,"_86":87,"_88":89,"_90":-5,"_46":-5,"_91":92,"_93":-5,"_94":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Make the numbers mean something","make-the-numbers-mean-something","Listen to this leadership podcast with Roger Crandall, President and CEO of MassMutual, and discover how to get your team to feel more connected to your big goals.","summary","

As a leader, you’ve got to know your numbers. But you can’t maximize your impact as a leader unless you know how to make those numbers mean something to your team.

In this episode, David talks with Roger Crandall, President and CEO of MassMutual, a leader who blends sharp analytics with powerful storytelling.

You’ll learn how to turn data and revenue goals into human-centered stories that actually move people to act. Plus, Roger shares a thoughtful perspective on AI and leadership that you probably haven’t heard yet.

If you want to lead with more clarity, connection, and purpose (even in a data-driven world), this episode is for you.

You’ll also learn:

Why bureaucracy always tries to sneak back in — and how to stop it
The question you’re probably asking wrong in your one-on-ones
How uncertainty can actually drive your best growth
The trick to keeping your team hungry after a big win

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.040\nI tell stories about how we help families and have for eight or nine\n\n2\n00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:08.370\ngenerations and make sure everybody understands, hey, they're part of being\n\n3\n00:00:08.370 --> 00:00:10.740\npart of the story because it's being part of something bigger than yourself\n\n4\n00:00:10.740 --> 00:00:14.180\nright that's the essence of leadership right how do you get people to work\n\n5\n00:00:14.180 --> 00:00:16.000\ntogether to do things that are bigger than any of us could do\n\n6\n00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:24.060\nas a leader you got to understand your numbers but the real question is can you\n\n7\n00:00:24.060 --> 00:00:32.030\nmake those numbers mean something welcome to how leaders lead i'm david novek\n\n8\n00:00:32.030 --> 00:00:32.490\nand every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to\n\n9\n00:00:32.490 --> 00:00:33.000\nhelp you become the best leader that you can be my guest today is\n\n10\n00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:37.760\nRoger Crandall, the chairman, CEO and president of mass mutual. Now Roger\n\n11\n00:00:37.760 --> 00:00:42.410\noperates in a highly technical world with lots of data and complex financial\n\n12\n00:00:42.410 --> 00:00:48.000\nproducts, the numbers that drive his business or vital and he understands them\n\n13\n00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:52.000\ninside and out, but he also understands those numbers can't just\n\n14\n00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:56.870\nbe a lack on a spreadsheet, they need context they need stories they need to\n\n15\n00:00:56.870 --> 00:01:01.590\nmean something you're about to hear from a leader who knows how to take the\n\n16\n00:01:01.590 --> 00:01:06.000\nnumbers and revenue goals and bring them to life with real human stories\n\n17\n00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:12.140\nit's how he engages and coaches people on a level that a lot of leaders just\n\n18\n00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:17.350\nsimply miss especially analytical leaders so let's get into it here's my\n\n19\n00:01:17.350 --> 00:01:26.000\nconversation with my good friend and soon to be yours Roger Crandall\n\n20\n00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:34.990\nyou're a die hard Yankees fan and yet mass mutual is a signature partner of the\n\n21\n00:01:34.990 --> 00:01:42.260\nBoston Red Sox and Finway Park I mean you're named Roger after Roger Maris, how\n\n22\n00:01:42.260 --> 00:01:44.000\nin the heck did you let this happen\n\n23\n00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:49.700\nOh, it's a sad tale but but one that's been great for mass mutual, okay I'm a\n\n24\n00:01:49.700 --> 00:01:54.250\nbaseball fan and you can't have the Yankees without having the Red Sox, co-op\n\n25\n00:01:54.250 --> 00:01:58.400\netition and competition is how the world works so when we had the opportunity to\n\n26\n00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.000\nput the mass mutual\n\n27\n00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.790\nbrand and partner with the Red Sox also locally with what we do for our\n\n28\n00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:09.190\ncommunities it was a no brainer, it's just the way the way the cookie crumbled\n\n29\n00:02:09.190 --> 00:02:13.340\nI'm running a Massachusetts company not a New York company so it's been a great\n\n30\n00:02:13.340 --> 00:02:14.000\npartnership\n\n31\n00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:17.240\nI just make way too much common sense you know, my dad was a Red Sox fan so you\n\n32\n00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:21.000\ndo have that, oh there you go at least you got something in the family there\n\n33\n00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:25.410\nyou know and you know it's interesting as I understand you don't have a you don\n\n34\n00:02:25.410 --> 00:02:26.000\n't have an office\n\n35\n00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:30.230\nyou don't have the typical CEO office and in this room that I'm looking at\n\n36\n00:02:30.230 --> 00:02:36.000\nright here is a collaboration room it's where you get together and collaborate\n\n37\n00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:38.000\nlooks like a great place where you might want to take a nap\n\n38\n00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:44.000\nbut anyway tell me about just your whole thought process on office space\n\n39\n00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:47.980\nSo look mass mutual is kind of an amazing company right we're a mutual company\n\n40\n00:02:47.980 --> 00:02:52.030\nis the name and pies which means we're effectively owned by our participating\n\n41\n00:02:52.030 --> 00:02:56.000\npolicy holders so we've got about 4 million members of the company and\n\n42\n00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:01.000\ncompany was started right here in Springfield coming up on 175 years ago back\n\n43\n00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:08.000\nin 1851 and that's great but along the way boy it was a lot of hierarchy\n\n44\n00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.360\nwe had seven layers of vice presidents you were a junior assistant vice\n\n45\n00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:16.980\npresident you got a certain size office and then you became an assistant vice\n\n46\n00:03:16.980 --> 00:03:19.000\npresident you got a bigger one and\n\n47\n00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:24.770\nand I just did not think that that was ultimately going to let us get the most\n\n48\n00:03:24.770 --> 00:03:28.630\nout of all of us so we ultimately did a couple things one is we changed our\n\n49\n00:03:28.630 --> 00:03:32.530\ndress code to two words dress appropriately we used to have like literally when\n\n50\n00:03:32.530 --> 00:03:34.000\nI joined here in 1988 a handbook of\n\n51\n00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:39.180\nwhat you could wear when and we kind of blew up all the vice president steps\n\n52\n00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:42.750\nand then we said well if we're going to do that let's blow up the offices as\n\n53\n00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:44.000\nwell so\n\n54\n00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:48.510\nthe big giant chairman's office I used to have is now a conference room that\n\n55\n00:03:48.510 --> 00:03:53.170\nanyone can book and use and I think it's actually done a really good job of\n\n56\n00:03:53.170 --> 00:03:56.990\nhelping flatten how the organization works and just making it more comfortable\n\n57\n00:03:56.990 --> 00:04:01.000\nfor people to be kind of fully engaged wherever they are in the organization so\n\n58\n00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:01.000\nI just thought\n\n59\n00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:06.240\nthe strong hierarchical stuff was holding us back and we made that decision g\n\n60\n00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:11.000\nosh six, seven years ago now is before COVID even and I think it's really worked\n\n61\n00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:11.000\n.\n\n62\n00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:15.500\nSo what advice can you give leaders on how to be a bureaucracy buster because\n\n63\n00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:18.000\nthat seems to be kind of what you're into.\n\n64\n00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.610\nI'll tell you they are they are insidious little things and they keep kind of\n\n65\n00:04:21.610 --> 00:04:25.080\ncrawling their way back in kind of one one way or another far away one of the\n\n66\n00:04:25.080 --> 00:04:29.180\nbiggest things is trying to create an environment where again just people are\n\n67\n00:04:29.180 --> 00:04:30.000\nare comfortable engaging.\n\n68\n00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:32.000\nLook I was this morning.\n\n69\n00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:36.000\nReally cool I got to meet with about 25 interns that are here.\n\n70\n00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:40.830\nSo these are not just digital natives these are AI natives right this is like\n\n71\n00:04:40.830 --> 00:04:45.730\nthe first generation that that has been using these new tools already kind of\n\n72\n00:04:45.730 --> 00:04:46.000\nan learning kind of environment.\n\n73\n00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:50.220\nAnd I told them you have a superpower you actually know what this stuff is\n\n74\n00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:54.640\nright we talked to you know every you know PhD from MIT and every consulting\n\n75\n00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:59.000\nfirm in the world but you you're actually been growing up with it so I'm\n\n76\n00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:04.660\nlean into that. Speak up, tell us how we should be thinking about things. I\n\n77\n00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:05.160\njust try to keep\n\n78\n00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:10.890\nencouraging it. People want to speak up. They want to be involved. They want to\n\n79\n00:05:10.890 --> 00:05:13.240\nbe part of a\n\n80\n00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:18.380\ngrowing organization. So you just got to keep at it because otherwise, boy,\n\n81\n00:05:18.380 --> 00:05:20.600\nbigger companies, at least\n\n82\n00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.400\nthis one seems to want to be rocker sized when he can't.\n\n83\n00:05:23.400 --> 00:05:23.920\nWell, certainly I had to fight it every day myself. You mentioned that Mass\n\n84\n00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:30.280\nMutual is a mutual\n\n85\n00:05:30.280 --> 00:05:35.220\ncompany which means it's owned by policy holders, not shareholders. How does\n\n86\n00:05:35.220 --> 00:05:36.520\nthat ownership model\n\n87\n00:05:36.520 --> 00:05:42.440\ninfluence how you lead, Roger? Yeah, and it took me a while to understand how\n\n88\n00:05:42.440 --> 00:05:44.520\nspecial having\n\n89\n00:05:44.520 --> 00:05:48.300\none set of constituents is. And you have to think about it in a multi-gener\n\n90\n00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:49.000\national way.\n\n91\n00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.760\nThink about it first. Let me go ahead and put on the table. No one thinks about\n\n92\n00:05:52.760 --> 00:05:53.720\nlife insurance.\n\n93\n00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:58.760\nIt's just not the kind of thing you wake up and go, \"Yes, today, there's a new\n\n94\n00:05:58.760 --> 00:05:59.320\nMass Mutual\n\n95\n00:05:59.320 --> 00:06:01.980\nlife insurance policy coming out. I'm going to go get in line to get it.\" It\n\n96\n00:06:01.980 --> 00:06:02.760\njust doesn't happen\n\n97\n00:06:02.760 --> 00:06:07.490\nthat way. But when you start really thinking about it deeply, it starts with\n\n98\n00:06:07.490 --> 00:06:09.640\nbeing a multi-generational\n\n99\n00:06:09.640 --> 00:06:15.000\nthing because guess what? You're dead. So it's all about who do you love? Who\n\n100\n00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:15.800\ndo you want to take\n\n101\n00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.000\ncare of if you're not able there to take care of them? And that immediately\n\n102\n00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:19.800\nleads you to kids and\n\n103\n00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.880\ngrandkids. And that is humanity at its core. It doesn't matter your politics,\n\n104\n00:06:24.880 --> 00:06:25.960\nit doesn't matter\n\n105\n00:06:25.960 --> 00:06:29.820\nanything. We all love people and we want to take care of them and it's in this\n\n106\n00:06:29.820 --> 00:06:31.080\nmulti-generational\n\n107\n00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:35.390\nway. So this really long-term thinking is where it starts. And we are simply\n\n108\n00:06:35.390 --> 00:06:36.280\nstewards of this\n\n109\n00:06:36.280 --> 00:06:40.530\norganization for the time that we're here. And it's our job just as we stand on\n\n110\n00:06:40.530 --> 00:06:41.560\nthe shoulders of\n\n111\n00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:44.750\npeople who came before us who make good decisions for the benefit of\n\n112\n00:06:44.750 --> 00:06:46.440\ngenerations ahead. We need to\n\n113\n00:06:46.440 --> 00:06:51.000\nmake good decisions for the generations that have come after us. And it's just\n\n114\n00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:52.360\nreally important. I\n\n115\n00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:56.700\nalways tell stories about the long-term nature of the company. And it's\n\n116\n00:06:56.700 --> 00:06:59.000\nabsolutely wild how that's\n\n117\n00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.840\ntrue. And when people really think about it, they're like, \"Wow, this makes\n\n118\n00:07:02.840 --> 00:07:05.240\nsense. I love co-ops,\n\n119\n00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:09.280\nright? This is like a co-op for my insurance.\" And it's work for coming up on\n\n120\n00:07:09.280 --> 00:07:10.440\n175 years.\n\n121\n00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:14.040\nYou know, you mentioned life insurance. You don't really think about it. I was\n\n122\n00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:14.840\nflying in.\n\n123\n00:07:14.840 --> 00:07:22.360\nIt's a friend of mine into a mountain city. And we hit a wind shear and we had\n\n124\n00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:23.080\nto go around\n\n125\n00:07:23.080 --> 00:07:28.070\nbefore we could land. And the person I was with says, \"Jesus, I'm really\n\n126\n00:07:28.070 --> 00:07:29.240\nstarting to think about my\n\n127\n00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:32.700\nlife insurance.\" You know, how do you get people to think about life insurance\n\n128\n00:07:32.700 --> 00:07:33.800\nwithout almost having\n\n129\n00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:37.240\na near-death experience? There is an old saying, which is true, and that this\n\n130\n00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:38.440\nis something that is\n\n131\n00:07:38.440 --> 00:07:43.270\nsold not bought. Occasionally, people think about life insurance around major\n\n132\n00:07:43.270 --> 00:07:44.520\nlife events. And then\n\n133\n00:07:44.520 --> 00:07:47.500\nsadly, they think about life insurance when something is going wrong when it\n\n134\n00:07:47.500 --> 00:07:48.360\nmay be too late,\n\n135\n00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:53.810\nright, to get affordable insurance. So it starts with really great financial\n\n136\n00:07:53.810 --> 00:07:55.080\nadvisors that understand\n\n137\n00:07:55.080 --> 00:07:59.960\nthe role that protection products play in a portfolio. I mean, look, huge, huge\n\n138\n00:07:59.960 --> 00:08:00.760\nopportunities\n\n139\n00:08:00.760 --> 00:08:06.180\nto build wealth over time by investing in equities. I mean, the magic that is\n\n140\n00:08:06.180 --> 00:08:07.560\nthe US stock market\n\n141\n00:08:08.200 --> 00:08:12.600\nfor Americans is magical. You need to think about protection as well. And that\n\n142\n00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:13.640\n's not just life,\n\n143\n00:08:13.640 --> 00:08:17.960\nwhich is obviously what most people think about. But it's also morbidity, like\n\n144\n00:08:17.960 --> 00:08:18.680\nwhat happens if you\n\n145\n00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.340\nget hurt. You know, a younger person today, they may look at their financial\n\n146\n00:08:22.340 --> 00:08:23.160\nstatement and go,\n\n147\n00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:26.470\n\"My gosh, I've got no money or I've got a negative net worth because of a\n\n148\n00:08:26.470 --> 00:08:28.280\nstudent loan or a mortgage.\"\n\n149\n00:08:28.280 --> 00:08:32.070\nBut your biggest asset is your ability to keep working. And that's not on the\n\n150\n00:08:32.070 --> 00:08:32.600\nbalance sheet,\n\n151\n00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.670\nright? But you are going to be able to keep working. So disability coverage is\n\n152\n00:08:35.670 --> 00:08:36.520\nreally important.\n\n153\n00:08:36.520 --> 00:08:43.400\nObviously, aging population, I'm part of the so-called sandwich generation when\n\n154\n00:08:43.400 --> 00:08:43.720\nyou start\n\n155\n00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:49.690\nthinking about caring for elderly parents or grandparents. Long-term care is\n\n156\n00:08:49.690 --> 00:08:51.000\nsuch a powerful\n\n157\n00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:55.380\nproduct that brings peace of mind to kind of companies. And then the other is\n\n158\n00:08:55.380 --> 00:08:55.720\nwith a little\n\n159\n00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.400\nluck, we're all going to live to be 100 to gosh knows how long we're going to\n\n160\n00:08:59.400 --> 00:09:00.280\nlive the way technology\n\n161\n00:09:00.280 --> 00:09:03.560\nis going. You don't want to outlive your assets. So lifetime income or\n\n162\n00:09:03.560 --> 00:09:05.000\nlongevity protection is the\n\n163\n00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.240\nother kind of piece of the three that we do. And it takes a financial\n\n164\n00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:10.760\nprofessional, understands\n\n165\n00:09:10.760 --> 00:09:16.540\nhow these things work as part of a plan. And it means working with clients so\n\n166\n00:09:16.540 --> 00:09:17.480\nthat they are\n\n167\n00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:21.470\naligned with what they're trying to achieve and helping them do it. And it all\n\n168\n00:09:21.470 --> 00:09:23.080\nworks. It's a magical\n\n169\n00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:27.710\nthing. Obviously CEOs get complaint letters from time to time, but I also get\n\n170\n00:09:27.710 --> 00:09:28.920\nthese amazing letters\n\n171\n00:09:28.920 --> 00:09:33.170\nfrom people that have been with us 40, 50, 60, 70 years. And what we've done is\n\n172\n00:09:33.170 --> 00:09:34.120\nhelp their families\n\n173\n00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:38.630\nthrough really tough times. And it's noble work that we do and it's really cool\n\n174\n00:09:38.630 --> 00:09:39.000\n.\n\n175\n00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:45.570\nThat's you use the word noble. And I find that the best companies world have a\n\n176\n00:09:45.570 --> 00:09:46.440\nnoble cause.\n\n177\n00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:51.320\nHow do you take that noble cause that you have and drive that throughout your\n\n178\n00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:52.120\norganization and\n\n179\n00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:58.760\nmake it relevant for everybody? Yeah, it's such a great point. We started off\n\n180\n00:09:58.760 --> 00:09:59.320\ntalking about the\n\n181\n00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:02.710\nYankees, but there is a little football team up here in New England, the\n\n182\n00:10:02.710 --> 00:10:04.280\nPatriots. And they got\n\n183\n00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:11.240\nthe saying do your job. And everybody here contributes towards doing the job.\n\n184\n00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.160\nIt's the\n\n185\n00:10:13.160 --> 00:10:17.640\nadvisor out in the field who meets with somebody. The person in technology\n\n186\n00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:18.520\nhelps make sure that\n\n187\n00:10:18.520 --> 00:10:25.050\nthe application can put it easily. It's the person who served me a nice piece\n\n188\n00:10:25.050 --> 00:10:25.240\nof fish,\n\n189\n00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:28.360\nhealthy piece of fish today at lunch. We have free breakfast and free lunch\n\n190\n00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:28.840\nhere at Mass\n\n191\n00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:31.960\nMutual if you come and come and work here. We want you to come in the office\n\n192\n00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:33.720\nand enjoy being here.\n\n193\n00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:38.140\nEverybody plays their role. So I think we, I tell stories about how we help\n\n194\n00:10:38.140 --> 00:10:39.800\nfamilies and have for\n\n195\n00:10:39.800 --> 00:10:43.790\neight or nine generations and make sure everybody understands, hey, they're\n\n196\n00:10:43.790 --> 00:10:45.080\npart of being part of\n\n197\n00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.180\nthe story because it's being part of something bigger than yourself. That's in\n\n198\n00:10:48.180 --> 00:10:49.160\na certain sense\n\n199\n00:10:49.160 --> 00:10:52.200\nthat's the essence of leadership. How do you get people to work together to do\n\n200\n00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:52.760\nthings that are\n\n201\n00:10:52.760 --> 00:10:57.020\nbigger than any of us could do individually? And for our little corner of the\n\n202\n00:10:57.020 --> 00:10:58.440\nworld, which is\n\n203\n00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:01.670\nproviding financial security for families, helping people protect their future\n\n204\n00:11:01.670 --> 00:11:02.440\nand secure the ones\n\n205\n00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:07.800\nthey love, everyone here plays a part. If any one of us messes up, we don't do\n\n206\n00:11:07.800 --> 00:11:08.680\nit as well as we\n\n207\n00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:12.100\npossibly could. So we all have a role to play and it ends up being kind of\n\n208\n00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:13.320\nmagical at the end.\n\n209\n00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:17.640\nYou know, speaking of stories, what's a story from your childhood that shaped\n\n210\n00:11:17.640 --> 00:11:18.280\nthe kind of leader\n\n211\n00:11:18.280 --> 00:11:22.670\nyou are today? Yeah, I think the, I think the big one is, so look, my dad went\n\n212\n00:11:22.670 --> 00:11:23.640\nto work for Mass\n\n213\n00:11:23.640 --> 00:11:29.370\nMutual in 1964. So one of us has worked at the company continuously for quite a\n\n214\n00:11:29.370 --> 00:11:30.680\nnumber of years,\n\n215\n00:11:30.680 --> 00:11:35.320\n60 years at this point. And, and I, you know, I was just a little kid, I didn't\n\n216\n00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:35.880\nknow what he did,\n\n217\n00:11:35.880 --> 00:11:40.430\nbut I would go in with him to his office and kind of stuff envelopes because he\n\n218\n00:11:40.430 --> 00:11:41.480\nwas a sales guy.\n\n219\n00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:45.030\nSo he used to pay me a penny in envelope and he would send out mailers and\n\n220\n00:11:45.030 --> 00:11:45.720\nhopefully,\n\n221\n00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:49.300\nhopefully, you know, get a little insurance done. So that being actively\n\n222\n00:11:49.300 --> 00:11:51.240\ninvolved, like do my job,\n\n223\n00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:55.880\nstuff in envelope was kind of, was kind of one one. And then my, my uncle's Bob\n\n224\n00:11:55.880 --> 00:11:56.360\nCrandall,\n\n225\n00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.440\nhe was the CEO of American Airlines, you know, pretty famous executive. So I\n\n226\n00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:01.000\njust knew him as\n\n227\n00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:07.250\nUncle Bob, but I got to just hear him talk about business. So at an early age,\n\n228\n00:12:07.250 --> 00:12:08.040\nI kind of knew that\n\n229\n00:12:08.040 --> 00:12:13.400\ninsurance was something at an early age. You know, I got to hear Bob talk about\n\n230\n00:12:13.400 --> 00:12:15.000\n, about the airline\n\n231\n00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.480\nbusiness in the, in the Frank way that he talks about things. And that was very\n\n232\n00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:20.440\ninstrumental to me\n\n233\n00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.060\nas I was kind of growing, growing up as a kid. It's, it's great that you\n\n234\n00:12:24.060 --> 00:12:25.160\nmentioned your, your,\n\n235\n00:12:25.160 --> 00:12:29.400\nyour uncle Bob, you know, I co-founded Young Brands with Andy Pearson, who was\n\n236\n00:12:29.400 --> 00:12:30.040\na really good\n\n237\n00:12:30.040 --> 00:12:35.860\nfriend of Bob Crandall and Andy was the head of, head of PepsiCo. But he, he,\n\n238\n00:12:35.860 --> 00:12:37.160\nhe was, you know,\n\n239\n00:12:37.160 --> 00:12:43.960\nBob was Andy's most admired CEO. And at the time, I was a big Herb Keller fan,\n\n240\n00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:45.080\nyou know, from Southwest\n\n241\n00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:49.950\nAirlines, now Southwest Airlines, you know, known for spreading love all over\n\n242\n00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:51.160\nTexas. He would drink\n\n243\n00:12:51.160 --> 00:12:55.960\nwild turkey. He'd CEO of the year, just like Bob Crandall was CEO of the year.\n\n244\n00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:57.160\nBob, Bob Crandall has\n\n245\n00:12:57.160 --> 00:13:02.440\nseen us that tough-minded, you know, you know, aggressive, you know, tell it\n\n246\n00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:03.720\nlike it is kind of guy.\n\n247\n00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.720\nWhere do you, where do you fit in this spectrum of leaders? Because clearly,\n\n248\n00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:09.320\nyou know, those,\n\n249\n00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.740\nthose are two different guys. They were. And by the way, I was the airline\n\n250\n00:13:12.740 --> 00:13:13.720\nanalyst for a decade\n\n251\n00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:19.770\nhere at Mass Mutual. So I financed both Southwest and American and was an early\n\n252\n00:13:19.770 --> 00:13:20.840\nequity investor in\n\n253\n00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:25.100\nthe airline that became JetBlue with David Neillomond. So I, I know, I know\n\n254\n00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:25.880\nmore than a little bit\n\n255\n00:13:25.880 --> 00:13:29.450\nabout the, about the airline industry. Look, I, I've talked to my uncle about\n\n256\n00:13:29.450 --> 00:13:30.600\nthis, Bob is 90\n\n257\n00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:35.700\nyears old and he's still sharp, sharp as a tack. He, look, he was, you know,\n\n258\n00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:36.760\nkind of the imperial\n\n259\n00:13:36.760 --> 00:13:41.560\nCEO, right? That, that was the time. They, they, and frankly, Herb was as well,\n\n260\n00:13:41.560 --> 00:13:43.000\nyou know, Herb,\n\n261\n00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:46.570\nyou know, transformed that industry with, with what he did around standard\n\n262\n00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:47.480\nization and,\n\n263\n00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:52.350\nand leveraging love field as, as, as a base and everything. I look, I think\n\n264\n00:13:52.350 --> 00:13:53.080\ntimes change.\n\n265\n00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:59.820\nI think, I think how, how cultures evolve as part, part to do with it. So, you\n\n266\n00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:01.000\nknow, I'm, I'm,\n\n267\n00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:05.750\nI'm not my uncle. I never, never will be. There are times when I can be a pain\n\n268\n00:14:05.750 --> 00:14:06.680\nin the neck on\n\n269\n00:14:06.680 --> 00:14:10.010\ngory details. And there, but there are times when my biggest job is to be the\n\n270\n00:14:10.010 --> 00:14:11.320\nbiggest cheerleader for\n\n271\n00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.320\npeople. And I think particularly with, with, you know, how our workforces have\n\n272\n00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:17.560\nchanged over time,\n\n273\n00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:21.880\nwhat a great example is how many generations are in the workforce today. You\n\n274\n00:14:21.880 --> 00:14:22.600\nknow, the right thing\n\n275\n00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:25.550\nfor, for different folks and, and motivating them and getting the best out of\n\n276\n00:14:25.550 --> 00:14:26.440\nthem can be different.\n\n277\n00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:31.400\nSo I've, I've tried to adapt and change along the way. If what I'm doing isn't\n\n278\n00:14:31.400 --> 00:14:31.640\nworking,\n\n279\n00:14:31.640 --> 00:14:34.530\nI'm going to try something else. I'm going to keep you back more in your\n\n280\n00:14:34.530 --> 00:14:35.080\nchildhood for\n\n281\n00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:38.590\njust one more second. You know what? When I was doing my research, I learned\n\n282\n00:14:38.590 --> 00:14:38.920\nthat you,\n\n283\n00:14:38.920 --> 00:14:43.560\nthat you lost your first money on a stock option when you were 12 years old.\n\n284\n00:14:43.560 --> 00:14:44.280\nNow,\n\n285\n00:14:44.280 --> 00:14:51.280\nnow looking back now, are you surprised at the path that you've taken to get to\n\n286\n00:14:51.280 --> 00:14:51.400\nthe\n\n287\n00:14:51.400 --> 00:14:57.160\nB2C of this, this company or was it in the cards all along? That's where you're\n\n288\n00:14:57.160 --> 00:14:57.640\ngoing to go down\n\n289\n00:14:57.640 --> 00:15:02.040\nthat way. I liked investing. Yes, I lost money. I'm buying a Xerox call option\n\n290\n00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:03.160\nwhen I was, when I\n\n291\n00:15:03.160 --> 00:15:07.500\nwas 12. And the right, the only good news was the position was sized\n\n292\n00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:09.000\nappropriately, meaning it was\n\n293\n00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:12.700\nspeculative money. And if I lost it, it was okay. Look, I was always fascinated\n\n294\n00:15:12.700 --> 00:15:13.400\nwith markets,\n\n295\n00:15:13.400 --> 00:15:16.750\nalways liked kind of investing. And my dream job was to become the chief\n\n296\n00:15:16.750 --> 00:15:17.800\ninvestment officer,\n\n297\n00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:23.320\nwhich I was before I ultimately became president and CEO. So I never along the\n\n298\n00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:23.960\nway said, \"Hi,\n\n299\n00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:28.120\nI aspire to be CEO.\" I was fortunate to do really interesting work with people\n\n300\n00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:28.760\nI really enjoyed\n\n301\n00:15:28.760 --> 00:15:33.000\nworking with. That ultimately put me in a position to get this role. But early\n\n302\n00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:34.760\non, I just thought\n\n303\n00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:40.170\nthis intersection of business and how markets price things was just absolutely\n\n304\n00:15:40.170 --> 00:15:41.080\nfascinating.\n\n305\n00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.600\nAnd I think it's still fascinating to this day, 30 some odd years later.\n\n306\n00:15:45.400 --> 00:15:48.600\nHey, everyone, it's Kula from Howl Leaders Lead. And if you've watched our\n\n307\n00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:49.560\npodcast for any number\n\n308\n00:15:49.560 --> 00:15:53.300\nof episodes, you probably know that a common theme from all of the great\n\n309\n00:15:53.300 --> 00:15:54.520\nleaders we interview\n\n310\n00:15:54.520 --> 00:15:58.930\nis that they are active learners. They had this commitment to continuing to\n\n311\n00:15:58.930 --> 00:15:59.960\nlearn and grow so\n\n312\n00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:03.650\nthat they don't say a statement and so that they continue to see success in\n\n313\n00:16:03.650 --> 00:16:04.600\ntheir leadership\n\n314\n00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:09.160\nand in their life. This theme of active learning is so important. And it's what\n\n315\n00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:10.360\nDavid's latest book,\n\n316\n00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:14.760\nHowl Leaders Learn is all about. It's all about helping you develop that skill\n\n317\n00:16:14.760 --> 00:16:15.320\nof active\n\n318\n00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.480\nlearning so that you too can continue to see success in your leadership and in\n\n319\n00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:20.120\nyour life.\n\n320\n00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.850\nThe book is really entertaining. It pulls stories from some of our greatest\n\n321\n00:16:23.850 --> 00:16:25.160\npodcast guests and pairs\n\n322\n00:16:25.160 --> 00:16:29.360\nthose stories with insights that you can incorporate into your leadership and\n\n323\n00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:30.360\ninto your life right\n\n324\n00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:35.020\naway. Grab Howl Leaders Learn on Amazon or wherever books are sold. And I think\n\n325\n00:16:35.020 --> 00:16:35.640\nyou're really going\n\n326\n00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:39.150\nto love it. You feel David's personality through the pages and through his\n\n327\n00:16:39.150 --> 00:16:40.360\nstorytelling. And it's a\n\n328\n00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:45.240\nreally powerful way to level up your leadership. Well, you've obviously made a\n\n329\n00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:46.440\nlot of good decisions\n\n330\n00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:52.440\nin your career. And I understand though that you chose the University of\n\n331\n00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.520\nVermont largely because\n\n332\n00:16:54.520 --> 00:17:00.050\nyou wanted to ski. Now, how would you say your decision making process has\n\n333\n00:17:00.050 --> 00:17:02.280\nevolved over time, Roger?\n\n334\n00:17:02.280 --> 00:17:05.950\nWell, look, I think you still always have to decide what's at some point you\n\n335\n00:17:05.950 --> 00:17:07.320\ngot to call the play.\n\n336\n00:17:07.320 --> 00:17:12.090\nWhat's the most important decision? So there were several factors that tied to\n\n337\n00:17:12.090 --> 00:17:12.520\nthe University of\n\n338\n00:17:12.520 --> 00:17:17.680\nVermont. But I certainly enjoyed skiing. And my parents thought going out west\n\n339\n00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:18.600\nwas too far. So\n\n340\n00:17:18.600 --> 00:17:22.410\nVermont, it was. I think what's happened over time. I've realized a couple of\n\n341\n00:17:22.410 --> 00:17:23.400\nthings. One is,\n\n342\n00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:29.720\nboy, is it a valuable thing to get input from a lot of different and sources.\n\n343\n00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.400\nIf you're convinced\n\n344\n00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:35.480\nyou're right and you surround yourself with people who think the same way, I\n\n345\n00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:37.000\nalways really\n\n346\n00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:42.760\ntook lessons out of what happened with the US and Vietnam, with McNamara and\n\n347\n00:17:42.760 --> 00:17:43.560\nkind of groupthink.\n\n348\n00:17:43.560 --> 00:17:50.680\nSo I certainly over time, I've come to the view that having lots of input is\n\n349\n00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:51.160\nvaluable.\n\n350\n00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.960\nBut at some point, you still do have to call the play. So you want to encourage\n\n351\n00:17:55.960 --> 00:17:56.600\nthat debate. You\n\n352\n00:17:56.600 --> 00:17:59.620\nwant to get all the pieces out there. But I've done more of that, I think over\n\n353\n00:17:59.620 --> 00:18:01.880\ntime. Early on in my\n\n354\n00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:04.910\ncareer, especially if I thought I was right, I was very sure I was right. And I\n\n355\n00:18:04.910 --> 00:18:06.440\nguess markets have\n\n356\n00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:11.440\na way of humbling people. And I must be the luckiest guy in the world because I\n\n357\n00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:12.040\n've seen five,\n\n358\n00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:17.190\nsix standard deviation events in my time in this job in markets. So I think a\n\n359\n00:18:17.190 --> 00:18:18.280\nlittle being humble\n\n360\n00:18:18.280 --> 00:18:22.140\nis a really good idea. It makes a lot of sense. And your first job, as you\n\n361\n00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:23.480\nmentioned out of college,\n\n362\n00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:29.620\nwas at Mass Mutual, which your father worked at that company. And what drew you\n\n363\n00:18:29.620 --> 00:18:30.840\ninto that business?\n\n364\n00:18:30.840 --> 00:18:34.440\nIt was simple. I needed a job in the market in Crash 87. And I couldn't find\n\n365\n00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:35.240\none in New York.\n\n366\n00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:39.320\nI was in a PhD program in economics. And I thought I was good at math until I\n\n367\n00:18:39.320 --> 00:18:39.960\nmet people who were\n\n368\n00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:44.880\nreally good at math. And decided I wanted to go to work. And that was a really\n\n369\n00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:46.440\ngood plan until\n\n370\n00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:52.040\nthe market crashed. And there was absolutely nothing. So I'd previously applied\n\n371\n00:18:52.040 --> 00:18:52.760\nand I've been\n\n372\n00:18:52.760 --> 00:18:56.650\noffered a job at Mass Mutual as a pension sales representative, actually in\n\n373\n00:18:56.650 --> 00:18:58.040\nWellesley, Mass.\n\n374\n00:18:58.040 --> 00:19:01.390\nMy dad was a sales guy and he was an exceptional sales guy. I was more of an\n\n375\n00:19:01.390 --> 00:19:02.360\nanalyst and said,\n\n376\n00:19:02.360 --> 00:19:06.120\nI'm not going to go into sales. So I got the opportunity to come here and work\n\n377\n00:19:06.120 --> 00:19:06.920\nin a real estate\n\n378\n00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:10.720\ninvestment analyst training program. And frankly, I thought I'd stay two years\n\n379\n00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:11.000\ntops.\n\n380\n00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.830\nThen I moved back to New York. And instead, my girlfriend moved up here. We got\n\n381\n00:19:14.830 --> 00:19:15.400\nmarried. We had\n\n382\n00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:19.720\nkids. And I got to do really interesting work with really great people. And I\n\n383\n00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:21.240\nnever left. But\n\n384\n00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:25.270\nthere were a lot of pieces that fell in. But fundamentally, I was so thrilled\n\n385\n00:19:25.270 --> 00:19:25.960\nto get a job\n\n386\n00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:28.920\noffer because I was about to move out of my apartment because I didn't have\n\n387\n00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:29.480\nmoney for rent.\n\n388\n00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.130\nAnd I was going to have to move back in with my parents. And that was not a\n\n389\n00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:33.800\ngreat plan.\n\n390\n00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:40.440\nWhat do you think you did early on in your crib? If you really look at it and I\n\n391\n00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:40.840\nknow you're a\n\n392\n00:19:40.840 --> 00:19:45.000\nhumble guy. So you don't like to talk about yourself so much. But what do you\n\n393\n00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:45.560\nthink you did\n\n394\n00:19:45.560 --> 00:19:50.600\nthat really helped you stand out and rise through the ranks? I think, again, I\n\n395\n00:19:50.600 --> 00:19:51.560\nhad some really,\n\n396\n00:19:51.560 --> 00:19:57.920\nreally good bosses. But you know what? I ended up becoming an expert in a very\n\n397\n00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:59.000\nesoteric space.\n\n398\n00:19:59.320 --> 00:20:03.700\nAnd I advise young folks really become an expert in something. It doesn't even\n\n399\n00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:05.000\nparticularly matter\n\n400\n00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:11.150\nwhat it is. But you want to be that go-to person. I ended up doing a rotation\n\n401\n00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:13.080\nthrough a securitized\n\n402\n00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:17.550\nproducts group in commercial mortgages before they were effectively any securit\n\n403\n00:20:17.550 --> 00:20:18.200\nization of\n\n404\n00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.960\ncommercial mortgages. So this was before the RTC started securitizing all the\n\n405\n00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:24.040\nbad assets it took\n\n406\n00:20:24.040 --> 00:20:29.640\nout of the SNL crisis. And the only thing that was really being securitized at\n\n407\n00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:29.960\nthe time was\n\n408\n00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:33.400\nresidential mortgages. But at one point, I knew every commercial mortgage\n\n409\n00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:34.520\nbacked securities deal\n\n410\n00:20:34.520 --> 00:20:38.570\nthat was done in the United States because they were less than 10. And that\n\n411\n00:20:38.570 --> 00:20:39.480\nunderstanding of\n\n412\n00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:45.050\nsecuritization technology and then that rolled over into credit. So Mass Future\n\n413\n00:20:45.050 --> 00:20:46.440\nwas one of the\n\n414\n00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:49.960\nearliest companies. The issue was called the collateralized bond obligation.\n\n415\n00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:50.360\nYou might have\n\n416\n00:20:50.360 --> 00:20:54.200\nheard of collateralized loan obligation, a big part of the loan markets today.\n\n417\n00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:54.840\nI learned how\n\n418\n00:20:54.840 --> 00:20:59.680\nthose things worked. And so all of a sudden, at a pretty young age, I was kind\n\n419\n00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:00.920\nof the expert on them.\n\n420\n00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:06.600\nAnd again, we had some great leaders in Mass Future that gave us, I guess,\n\n421\n00:21:06.600 --> 00:21:08.760\nenough room\n\n422\n00:21:08.760 --> 00:21:14.520\nto work on things and make mistakes and try to innovate. And that's something I\n\n423\n00:21:14.520 --> 00:21:14.920\nkind of\n\n424\n00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:20.440\ntried to do today. But I think early on becoming an expert in CMBS and in secur\n\n425\n00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:21.560\nitization and how\n\n426\n00:21:21.560 --> 00:21:26.810\nto connect those dots to other asset classes, probably was a really big success\n\n427\n00:21:26.810 --> 00:21:27.400\n. Well, not\n\n428\n00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.690\nprobably. It was a big win for me professionally too. Was that an area that\n\n429\n00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:31.560\nnobody really wanted\n\n430\n00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:34.850\nto go in at the time and you just seize the opportunity? I was going to go\n\n431\n00:21:34.850 --> 00:21:36.040\nafter a classic one-year\n\n432\n00:21:36.040 --> 00:21:41.470\ntraining program. I had some choices about where to go. They said, \"Where would\n\n433\n00:21:41.470 --> 00:21:42.280\nyou like to go?\"\n\n434\n00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:46.680\nAnd I was going to go to Chicago and went out to visit her office out there,\n\n435\n00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:47.560\nthought it would be great.\n\n436\n00:21:47.560 --> 00:21:53.080\nAnd then tragically, my grandfather was murdered. Someone broke into his house\n\n437\n00:21:53.080 --> 00:21:54.360\nin a robbery and\n\n438\n00:21:54.360 --> 00:22:00.970\nkilled him. And my mother was, as you would expect, a complete mess. And she\n\n439\n00:22:00.970 --> 00:22:01.480\nsaid, \"Boy,\n\n440\n00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:04.500\nI wish you weren't going so far away to Chicago.\" So I went to my boss and said\n\n441\n00:22:04.500 --> 00:22:05.000\n, \"Listen,\n\n442\n00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:08.830\nI know I told you I was going to Chicago, but there's a job here working in the\n\n443\n00:22:08.830 --> 00:22:10.680\nsecuritization space.\n\n444\n00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.800\nCould I swap and do that instead?\" And they agreed to let me do it. And then\n\n445\n00:22:13.800 --> 00:22:15.080\nshortly thereafter,\n\n446\n00:22:15.080 --> 00:22:25.240\nmy boss left. So I became the one, so a little bit of luck and a little bit of\n\n447\n00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:26.360\na family kind of\n\n448\n00:22:26.360 --> 00:22:29.920\ntragedy that ended up keeping me here in Springfield, which then gave me\n\n449\n00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.400\nexposure to a much broader\n\n450\n00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.480\narray of the company. And if I go to Chicago and have worked in a real estate\n\n451\n00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.120\norigination office, it would have been fabulous. I'm sure I would have enjoyed\n\n452\n00:22:38.120 --> 00:22:39.720\nit. But who knows\n\n453\n00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:43.320\nwhere it would have ended up. But by being here, I got to see just a broader\n\n454\n00:22:43.320 --> 00:22:44.120\narray. So I was a\n\n455\n00:22:44.120 --> 00:22:49.640\ngeneralist very, very early on after that deep specialist and just got to do a\n\n456\n00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:50.840\nreally wide\n\n457\n00:22:50.840 --> 00:22:54.280\nvariety of things. And that's, I think, turned out to be a real benefit.\n\n458\n00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:57.960\nAnd you said your dream job was to be the chief investment officer, which you\n\n459\n00:22:57.960 --> 00:22:59.640\ngot. And I know\n\n460\n00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:04.470\nyou had a lot of successes, obviously. But I understand once you took a $3\n\n461\n00:23:04.470 --> 00:23:05.400\nbillion loss\n\n462\n00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:14.040\non a particular initiative, but you kept getting promoted. I mean, what was\n\n463\n00:23:14.040 --> 00:23:17.400\nI lost $3 billion on the one hand and made 10 on the other side.\n\n464\n00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:23.160\nOkay, but that explains it all. But those sub primes, they were tough.\n\n465\n00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.280\nThose subprime mortgages, they heard a lot of people, they heard us pretty bad.\n\n466\n00:23:26.280 --> 00:23:30.360\nBut when you look back on that, what was the biggest leadership lesson you took\n\n467\n00:23:30.360 --> 00:23:30.920\naway from\n\n468\n00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:36.840\nlosing $3 billion? Obviously, you netted out $7 billion in the positive column.\n\n469\n00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:41.080\nYeah, I think a couple of, I had a boss early on who really hammered into me\n\n470\n00:23:41.080 --> 00:23:42.120\nand all of us that\n\n471\n00:23:42.120 --> 00:23:46.920\nsmall and modestized problems you manage and big problems manage you.\n\n472\n00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:55.480\nSo just creating diversification, I mean, it is an old part of investing,\n\n473\n00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:59.880\nbut understanding kind of position sizing so that if something goes wrong, you\n\n474\n00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:00.520\ncan manage it.\n\n475\n00:24:00.520 --> 00:24:04.600\nAnd it doesn't take you over. And I saw this front line. I mean, great example,\n\n476\n00:24:04.600 --> 00:24:10.360\nHartford, Connecticut, insurance capital of America. And, you know,\n\n477\n00:24:10.360 --> 00:24:15.400\natna, travelers, I mean, they both almost went under because they had so much\n\n478\n00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:15.880\ncommercial\n\n479\n00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.390\nmortgage exposure in the late '80s, early '90s when the real estate, commercial\n\n480\n00:24:19.390 --> 00:24:20.040\nreal estate market\n\n481\n00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:25.870\ncollapsed. And little mass mutual kind of up the street didn't, right? We, in\n\n482\n00:24:25.870 --> 00:24:26.600\nfact, thrived\n\n483\n00:24:26.600 --> 00:24:29.800\nkind of through all that because we just didn't, we weren't overexposed to one\n\n484\n00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:30.760\nasset last. So even\n\n485\n00:24:30.760 --> 00:24:34.400\nas fabulous as something looks, I think one thing I learned was, you know, just\n\n486\n00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:35.160\npay attention to\n\n487\n00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:39.440\nyour diversification. And that'll give you time to deal with problems because\n\n488\n00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:40.280\nbig problems come\n\n489\n00:24:40.280 --> 00:24:44.220\nat you like a tidal wave and it's hard to do something about. And speaking of\n\n490\n00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:44.920\nbig problems,\n\n491\n00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.450\nyou were named president of mass mutual in 2008, right in the middle of the\n\n492\n00:24:48.450 --> 00:24:49.240\nfinancial crisis.\n\n493\n00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.800\nSee, you'd be on that one, you know, and, you know, best, best possible time\n\n494\n00:24:53.800 --> 00:24:54.600\never to become a new\n\n495\n00:24:54.600 --> 00:25:00.520\npresident. Okay, explain that. Well, no, again, it's like the when the world is\n\n496\n00:25:00.520 --> 00:25:01.320\nunder pressure\n\n497\n00:25:01.320 --> 00:25:05.610\nand things are going on, you've got lots of flexibility to stand up and make\n\n498\n00:25:05.610 --> 00:25:06.360\nkind of bold\n\n499\n00:25:06.360 --> 00:25:10.260\ndecisions, right? If things are going perfectly smoothly, it can be hard\n\n500\n00:25:10.260 --> 00:25:11.400\nsometimes to make bold\n\n501\n00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.820\ndecisions. But the environment kind of melting down around us ended up being a\n\n502\n00:25:15.820 --> 00:25:17.320\nreal blessing as a\n\n503\n00:25:17.320 --> 00:25:21.590\nnew president and a new CEO. Again, the company was financially strong and a\n\n504\n00:25:21.590 --> 00:25:23.160\ngreat company at\n\n505\n00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.010\na great board, great, great collection of leaders and great, great agents and\n\n506\n00:25:27.010 --> 00:25:28.120\nadvisors working with\n\n507\n00:25:28.120 --> 00:25:32.290\nus. But, but I thought it was the greatest thing ever. Yeah, but you were also\n\n508\n00:25:32.290 --> 00:25:33.160\nat a time where it's\n\n509\n00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:36.950\njust like uncertain as hell. I mean, yeah, I remember I was on the JP Board of\n\n510\n00:25:36.950 --> 00:25:37.560\nChase, the\n\n511\n00:25:37.560 --> 00:25:41.120\nboard at that time. And it was like that little phone call from JB Diamond was\n\n512\n00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:42.040\none of the scariest\n\n513\n00:25:42.040 --> 00:25:46.700\nI ever got on over Labor Day weekend. Okay, let's see. So you have to manage in\n\n514\n00:25:46.700 --> 00:25:47.720\nthis huge time of\n\n515\n00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.320\nuncertainty. What did you pick up about? How do you lead in those uncertain\n\n516\n00:25:51.320 --> 00:25:52.120\ntimes where you don't\n\n517\n00:25:52.120 --> 00:25:55.640\nknow where it's going to end up? Yeah, I think I think a couple things. So one\n\n518\n00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:57.400\nis, and you use the\n\n519\n00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:02.180\nright word, especially in environments like that, people do want to be led,\n\n520\n00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:03.320\nright? They want someone\n\n521\n00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:07.080\nto stand up and say, Hey, it's going to be okay. We have a plan. Let's put our\n\n522\n00:26:07.080 --> 00:26:07.880\nheads down and\n\n523\n00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:12.590\nexecute on the plan, right? And we didn't get in a position where we had to\n\n524\n00:26:12.590 --> 00:26:14.200\ntake money from the\n\n525\n00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:17.330\ngovernment, which some other insurers did. And we kind of managed through that\n\n526\n00:26:17.330 --> 00:26:18.200\nourselves. But,\n\n527\n00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:23.160\nbut our ability to stand up and say, look, we've got a plan, our plan is solid.\n\n528\n00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:24.840\nLet's execute was\n\n529\n00:26:24.840 --> 00:26:29.710\nreally worked well. And in fact, that set off a period of growth of mass mutual\n\n530\n00:26:29.710 --> 00:26:30.360\ngrowing,\n\n531\n00:26:30.360 --> 00:26:33.550\nyou know, literally at four to five x the industry growth rate in insurance\n\n532\n00:26:33.550 --> 00:26:35.560\nsales. It ultimately\n\n533\n00:26:35.560 --> 00:26:40.250\nled us from being number 15 in market share to number two and number three. So\n\n534\n00:26:40.250 --> 00:26:41.720\nwe got tremendous\n\n535\n00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.920\nkind of more scale because as other people and other companies were grappling\n\n536\n00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:46.760\nwith issues,\n\n537\n00:26:46.760 --> 00:26:50.840\nwe represented certainty. And that's again, back to being a mutual, we really\n\n538\n00:26:50.840 --> 00:26:51.960\nbegan to lean into\n\n539\n00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:56.140\ntalking about that. Like this is this is different, right? It's, you know,\n\n540\n00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:57.560\nshareholders are fabulous,\n\n541\n00:26:57.560 --> 00:27:02.790\nbut shareholders time horizon. It lives in a cycle where the board's elected\n\n542\n00:27:02.790 --> 00:27:03.480\nannually\n\n543\n00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.400\nby the majority of the shareholders and the shares turn over 50 times a year\n\n544\n00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:07.640\nwith all the\n\n545\n00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.820\ntrading, right? Well, is that how you want to think about a 50 year or 75 year\n\n546\n00:27:11.820 --> 00:27:12.760\nrelationship with\n\n547\n00:27:12.760 --> 00:27:17.480\na company that's going to be taking care of your spouse if you pass away early\n\n548\n00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:18.120\nand taking care of\n\n549\n00:27:18.120 --> 00:27:21.720\nyour kids and grandkids? If you pass away, then we hope to. The answer to my\n\n550\n00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:22.840\nmind is no. So we\n\n551\n00:27:22.840 --> 00:27:30.720\nreally leaned into the power and strength of mutuality. And in fact, all of\n\n552\n00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:31.880\nthose difficult\n\n553\n00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.290\ntimes really set the stage for us to go through a period of extraordinary\n\n554\n00:27:36.290 --> 00:27:36.920\ngrowth.\n\n555\n00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:41.100\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Roger Crandall in just a\n\n556\n00:27:41.100 --> 00:27:42.040\nmoment. But first,\n\n557\n00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:47.430\nI want you to hear this insight from Jeff Colvin, who is a senior editor at\n\n558\n00:27:47.430 --> 00:27:48.440\nFortune Magazine and\n\n559\n00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:52.920\none of the best and brightest thinkers on business and leadership. He's also a\n\n560\n00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:53.800\nbig proponent of\n\n561\n00:27:53.800 --> 00:27:58.500\nstorytelling. And he knows it's key to really reaching and motivating other\n\n562\n00:27:58.500 --> 00:27:59.640\npeople. Most of\n\n563\n00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:04.630\nour organizations don't really value storytelling. They value charts and graphs\n\n564\n00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:06.920\n. And that's okay.\n\n565\n00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:12.480\nYou know, we're going to have to make our business decisions based on data and\n\n566\n00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:14.200\ngood analysis of data.\n\n567\n00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:20.120\nThat's never going to change. But analysis of data is exactly what technology\n\n568\n00:28:20.120 --> 00:28:21.000\nis doing better\n\n569\n00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.240\nand better every day. If we try to distinguish ourselves by doing that, we're\n\n570\n00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:25.800\ngoing to lose\n\n571\n00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:31.310\nbecause the computers do it better and better every day. At the same time, we\n\n572\n00:28:31.310 --> 00:28:32.520\nall know from\n\n573\n00:28:32.520 --> 00:28:39.820\npersonal experience. If you want to change people's minds, if you want to have\n\n574\n00:28:39.820 --> 00:28:40.840\npeople remember\n\n575\n00:28:40.840 --> 00:28:45.990\nsomething and if you want to inspire people to action, don't show them charts\n\n576\n00:28:45.990 --> 00:28:48.120\nand graphs. Tell\n\n577\n00:28:48.120 --> 00:28:54.330\nthem a story. Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Jeff, episode\n\n578\n00:28:54.330 --> 00:28:56.360\n149 here on How\n\n579\n00:28:56.360 --> 00:29:03.350\nLeaders Lead. You mentioned earlier that you had your uncle as your mentor Bob\n\n580\n00:29:03.350 --> 00:29:04.280\nCrandall.\n\n581\n00:29:04.280 --> 00:29:11.950\nAnd how did that shape just your thinking on mentorship and how to pay it\n\n582\n00:29:11.950 --> 00:29:12.440\nforward?\n\n583\n00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:21.560\nOh, it's so important. And it can be little things. I'm reminded of the first\n\n584\n00:29:21.560 --> 00:29:23.160\ntime I was asked to\n\n585\n00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:28.320\ngo present as the lead analyst on a deal to just an investment committee. Rel\n\n586\n00:29:28.320 --> 00:29:29.880\natively early in my\n\n587\n00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.540\ncareer. But at the time, it was the biggest thing that had ever happened. I\n\n588\n00:29:32.540 --> 00:29:33.400\nalways try to remind\n\n589\n00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.310\nmyself, in my role, everyone I interact with, it's a big interaction for them.\n\n590\n00:29:37.310 --> 00:29:40.200\nFirst and foremost,\n\n591\n00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:45.100\nkeeping that in mind. And then, again, different folks might respond\n\n592\n00:29:45.100 --> 00:29:46.200\ndifferently to\n\n593\n00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.970\nkind of mentoring, but kind of keeping those connections over time. It just\n\n594\n00:29:51.970 --> 00:29:53.160\nsets the stage\n\n595\n00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:58.760\nfor people to achieve the most that they can. And that's kind of a really good\n\n596\n00:29:58.760 --> 00:29:59.160\nfeeling. But it\n\n597\n00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:03.520\nwas a good feeling as an early manager. It's even kind of a better feeling. Now\n\n598\n00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:04.120\n, because I\n\n599\n00:30:04.120 --> 00:30:07.080\nmight bring them my jokes. It's not really that much of a joke. I don't do\n\n600\n00:30:07.080 --> 00:30:08.040\nanything anymore.\n\n601\n00:30:08.040 --> 00:30:14.720\nRight. I just help arrange people kind of doing things. And if all goes well, I\n\n602\n00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:15.640\ndon't really even\n\n603\n00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.170\nneed to talk to them all that much other than a pat on the back. And you're\n\n604\n00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:18.920\ndoing awesome.\n\n605\n00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:28.040\nSo it's a powerful thing. And again, I'm the beneficiary of my uncle, but many\n\n606\n00:30:28.040 --> 00:30:28.280\ngreat\n\n607\n00:30:28.280 --> 00:30:33.070\nmentors here at Mass Mutual and more broadly in life. And I try to think about\n\n608\n00:30:33.070 --> 00:30:33.720\nthat all the time.\n\n609\n00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.280\nYou know, like you, I've always felt that the best leaders or coaches, give me\n\n610\n00:30:38.280 --> 00:30:39.240\na go-to question.\n\n611\n00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:44.520\nYou'd like to ask your ask people when you're giving your one-on-ones.\n\n612\n00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.880\nYeah. Well, I mean, one that I think is really important,\n\n613\n00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:56.110\nit's an honest, how are you doing? Because people say, \"How are you doing? I'm\n\n614\n00:30:56.110 --> 00:30:56.760\nfine.\"\n\n615\n00:30:56.760 --> 00:31:03.400\nRight. That's kind of standard, kind of conversation. But everybody has so much\n\n616\n00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:04.200\nstuff going on.\n\n617\n00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:11.240\nAnd really getting the most out of people is hard. There's an old joke how many\n\n618\n00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:12.200\npeople work here.\n\n619\n00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:18.380\nNot about half. Right. And actually, academic research kind of shows that that\n\n620\n00:31:18.380 --> 00:31:18.920\n's about the\n\n621\n00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:22.630\nlevel of engagement most folks have. So I do really like to get a little bit of\n\n622\n00:31:22.630 --> 00:31:23.240\na check in.\n\n623\n00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:29.240\nIf not every meeting, pretty regularly, just how are things going? Is it, you\n\n624\n00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:29.240\nknow,\n\n625\n00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:32.550\nif you've got something going on with your family, have any health issues, I\n\n626\n00:31:32.550 --> 00:31:32.760\nmean,\n\n627\n00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:36.760\njust anything. And what can I do to help? And that gets to the other one, what\n\n628\n00:31:36.760 --> 00:31:37.640\ncan I do to help?\n\n629\n00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:40.440\nRight. What do you need me to do? What would you like me to do? And if the\n\n630\n00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:41.160\nanswer's nothing,\n\n631\n00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.880\nkeep out of my face, that's great. Right. Go forward. But I think understanding\n\n632\n00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:46.840\nwhere people are.\n\n633\n00:31:46.840 --> 00:31:51.800\nAnd then I very much try to encourage people, especially in today's day and age\n\n634\n00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:53.320\n. You have to\n\n635\n00:31:53.320 --> 00:31:58.540\ncompartmentalize and take some time for yourself. The information flow that's\n\n636\n00:31:58.540 --> 00:31:59.400\nout there today is\n\n637\n00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:03.820\nso much and our ability to have continual access with mobile devices. You've\n\n638\n00:32:03.820 --> 00:32:05.000\ngot to play the long\n\n639\n00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:09.510\ngame. So I do encourage people, especially this time of year, take vacation,\n\n640\n00:32:09.510 --> 00:32:10.280\nturn off the\n\n641\n00:32:10.280 --> 00:32:14.600\nwork phone. I have a very high degree of authority. Massage will be here in a\n\n642\n00:32:14.600 --> 00:32:15.400\nweek when you come back.\n\n643\n00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:25.080\nSo you've been in this role for more than a decade. And yet I understand one of\n\n644\n00:32:25.080 --> 00:32:25.880\nthe things that you\n\n645\n00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.440\ntalk about is the need to reinvent yourself every four or five years.\n\n646\n00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:37.080\nTalk about how you've done that. Yeah. Well, let's start with, again, you said\n\n647\n00:32:37.080 --> 00:32:38.120\nI got lucky,\n\n648\n00:32:38.120 --> 00:32:42.920\nright? Came in just as there was a huge financial crisis, but that huge\n\n649\n00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:44.440\nfinancial crisis then created\n\n650\n00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:51.320\na completely new regulatory environment. And it was a global regulatory\n\n651\n00:32:51.320 --> 00:32:51.800\nenvironment.\n\n652\n00:32:51.800 --> 00:32:56.330\nSo at that time, Mass Mutual had significant insurance businesses\n\n653\n00:32:56.330 --> 00:32:57.560\ninternationally, as well as\n\n654\n00:32:57.560 --> 00:33:01.730\nhere in the US. But all of the changes that came out of the great financial\n\n655\n00:33:01.730 --> 00:33:03.000\ncrisis, particularly\n\n656\n00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:09.240\naround regulatory capital between European companies and American companies,\n\n657\n00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:15.730\neffectively began to push Europeans out of the insurance market. So we saw it\n\n658\n00:33:15.730 --> 00:33:16.680\nas an opportunity\n\n659\n00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:22.340\nto really double down on the US. We ultimately sold businesses in Hong Kong and\n\n660\n00:33:22.340 --> 00:33:23.240\nin Chile and in\n\n661\n00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:28.780\nLuxembourg and in Japan and deployed all that capital to write insurance on\n\n662\n00:33:28.780 --> 00:33:30.280\nmore Americans.\n\n663\n00:33:30.280 --> 00:33:35.880\nSo the world, as the regulatory world changed, it enabled us to make a strategy\n\n664\n00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:37.240\nchange to become\n\n665\n00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:43.180\na scale manufacturer of insurance products. And then again, this wasn't me\n\n666\n00:33:43.180 --> 00:33:44.440\nsaying, \"Ah, it's four\n\n667\n00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:48.130\nyears in. I need to do something different.\" But it became very clear that\n\n668\n00:33:48.130 --> 00:33:49.400\ndistribution was going to,\n\n669\n00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:52.760\nit was taking and was going to continue to take a bigger share of the profit\n\n670\n00:33:52.760 --> 00:33:54.120\npool in the insurance\n\n671\n00:33:54.120 --> 00:34:00.040\nbusiness. So we really, really, really leaned into investing in distribution.\n\n672\n00:34:00.040 --> 00:34:01.800\nAnd that was a\n\n673\n00:34:01.800 --> 00:34:05.520\nchange that included us adding a third party distribution organization not\n\n674\n00:34:05.520 --> 00:34:06.280\nthrough our own\n\n675\n00:34:06.280 --> 00:34:09.230\nagents, which culturally was a big thing. The company was a very agent-driven\n\n676\n00:34:09.230 --> 00:34:09.880\ndistribution\n\n677\n00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:14.120\nkind of company. So again, the way I think about it, there were natural changes\n\n678\n00:34:14.120 --> 00:34:14.840\nthe company should\n\n679\n00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:20.020\nhave been making because of the changing kind of environment, both macro,\n\n680\n00:34:20.020 --> 00:34:21.240\nobviously the zero\n\n681\n00:34:21.240 --> 00:34:24.280\ninterest rate environment was a really big deal for the life insurance industry\n\n682\n00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:26.040\nfor a long time.\n\n683\n00:34:26.040 --> 00:34:31.110\nAnd it just so happened that I had to kind of reinvent both myself and the\n\n684\n00:34:31.110 --> 00:34:31.880\ncompany kind of\n\n685\n00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:35.880\nalong the way. So that's been a way I've tried to kind of stay kind of current.\n\n686\n00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:36.600\nOf course,\n\n687\n00:34:36.600 --> 00:34:40.760\nmaybe the biggest change ever is playing out right now. And that's the rise of\n\n688\n00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:42.120\nAI and a Gentic AI.\n\n689\n00:34:42.120 --> 00:34:46.920\nWe'll see how that plays out over the next few years. But I think every CEO\n\n690\n00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.720\ntoday is thinking a\n\n691\n00:34:47.720 --> 00:34:53.240\nlot about how is their company and industry going to be different in a world\n\n692\n00:34:53.240 --> 00:34:53.880\nwith these\n\n693\n00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:59.850\nlarge language models powered the way they are today. What do you see as the\n\n694\n00:34:59.850 --> 00:35:00.600\nmost promising\n\n695\n00:35:00.600 --> 00:35:05.940\nways that AI will change your business? I think the first is no one has ever w\n\n696\n00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:07.080\noken up in the\n\n697\n00:35:07.080 --> 00:35:10.920\nand said, after they say, yes, I want to go buy a life insurance policy, they\n\n698\n00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:11.560\ngo, well, that was\n\n699\n00:35:11.560 --> 00:35:15.830\nthe greatest buying experience I've ever had in my life. When it includes\n\n700\n00:35:15.830 --> 00:35:17.240\nsomeone showing up at your\n\n701\n00:35:17.240 --> 00:35:23.320\ndoor to take bodily fluids and with a scale, I am optimistic we are going to be\n\n702\n00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:24.840\nable to use\n\n703\n00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:31.520\nAI and machine learning to have the underwriting process be as predictive but\n\n704\n00:35:31.520 --> 00:35:32.280\nless invasive.\n\n705\n00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:34.920\nBecause what we're really trying to do is give everyone the lowest possible\n\n706\n00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:35.720\ncost of insurance.\n\n707\n00:35:35.720 --> 00:35:41.400\nAnd we need to understand what we're doing is predicting your future mortality.\n\n708\n00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:46.600\nSo I am optimistic it's going to make end customer experience easier. I also\n\n709\n00:35:46.600 --> 00:35:46.840\nthink it's\n\n710\n00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:53.150\ngoing to make distribution partners experience easier. And again, many, many,\n\n711\n00:35:53.150 --> 00:35:53.560\nmany folks in the\n\n712\n00:35:53.560 --> 00:35:57.250\nfinancial ecosystem do an extraordinary job of thinking about the investment\n\n713\n00:35:57.250 --> 00:35:58.120\nside of things,\n\n714\n00:35:58.120 --> 00:36:02.690\nbut they don't think much about how protection kind of plays in. I think there\n\n715\n00:36:02.690 --> 00:36:03.800\n's a great opportunity\n\n716\n00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:07.820\nto integrate protection into the process more smoothly. And that's going to\n\n717\n00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:08.840\nenable more people\n\n718\n00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.920\nto have coverage because it's kind of wild. Half the people who have life\n\n719\n00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:14.680\ninsurance when you ask\n\n720\n00:36:14.680 --> 00:36:18.840\nthem, do you need more life insurance say yes? And 70% of the people who don't\n\n721\n00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:19.160\nhave life\n\n722\n00:36:19.160 --> 00:36:21.880\ninsurance say, hey, I really should have it. I'm not sure about the other 30%.\n\n723\n00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:23.800\nBut again,\n\n724\n00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:28.400\nthere's a rich opportunity, but there's a perception that it's more expensive\n\n725\n00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:28.920\nthan it is.\n\n726\n00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:34.200\nAnd there's a perception, which maybe sometimes real, that it can be a not a\n\n727\n00:36:34.200 --> 00:36:35.560\ngreat user experience\n\n728\n00:36:35.560 --> 00:36:40.380\nbecause, you know, by saying anytime you've got to go deep into somebody's\n\n729\n00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:41.480\nhealth like that to\n\n730\n00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:46.280\ngive them the best offer, it can be more invasive and take longer than they'd\n\n731\n00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:46.920\nlike. So I think there's\n\n732\n00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:51.300\na big opportunity for those things to kind of change going forward. And that'll\n\n733\n00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:52.280\nhelp ultimately\n\n734\n00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:56.100\nthe over 100 million Americans either don't have coverage or don't have nearly\n\n735\n00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:56.520\nenough,\n\n736\n00:36:56.520 --> 00:37:00.600\nhopefully get it. And that'll make their families more secure.\n\n737\n00:37:00.600 --> 00:37:05.920\nHow are you resourcing the business to take advantage of this seismic change\n\n738\n00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:06.760\nwith AI?\n\n739\n00:37:07.640 --> 00:37:14.340\nSo, and again, boy, it's changing quick. So we it turns out, we I got lucky,\n\n740\n00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:14.760\nright? We\n\n741\n00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:21.000\nI literally I got an email from someone who found me in the Wharton\n\n742\n00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:25.880\nalumni network who'd gone to Wharton, send me an email and said, hey, I'm\n\n743\n00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:26.680\nlooking for a place to\n\n744\n00:37:26.680 --> 00:37:32.200\nwork for the next 20 years. And my wife is from Amherst, Massachusetts, which\n\n745\n00:37:32.200 --> 00:37:33.240\nis right up the road\n\n746\n00:37:33.240 --> 00:37:39.360\nhere. And I got that email, like called him, brought the guy in, and he\n\n747\n00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.880\nultimately worked in a lot\n\n748\n00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:47.120\nof things with us. But he convinced me of the need to kind of really build a\n\n749\n00:37:47.120 --> 00:37:48.120\ndata science\n\n750\n00:37:48.120 --> 00:37:52.450\ncapability. And we decided to build it ourselves, not to kind of outsource it.\n\n751\n00:37:52.450 --> 00:37:53.480\nSo we actually worked\n\n752\n00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:57.530\nwith the University of Massachusetts and Smith and Mount Holyoke. And we we\n\n753\n00:37:57.530 --> 00:37:58.920\nbrought kind of professors\n\n754\n00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:03.770\non and we kind of built built our own program. And as part of that, we built\n\n755\n00:38:03.770 --> 00:38:05.240\ndata architecture\n\n756\n00:38:05.240 --> 00:38:08.370\naround it as well. And again, I barely knew what these things really were. I\n\n757\n00:38:08.370 --> 00:38:09.480\nmean, I'd read about\n\n758\n00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:13.890\nthem. But but but but but it turned out that getting our data organized was\n\n759\n00:38:13.890 --> 00:38:15.640\nintegral to being able to\n\n760\n00:38:15.640 --> 00:38:21.160\nto now play the game that we're playing, where we've kind of accelerated things\n\n761\n00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:22.120\nfrom beta test\n\n762\n00:38:22.120 --> 00:38:27.400\ninto early production to actually take advantage of these AI tools. That said,\n\n763\n00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:28.280\nI still think we are\n\n764\n00:38:29.160 --> 00:38:32.660\nnot even two innings in baseball terms into this game. Maybe we're maybe we're\n\n765\n00:38:32.660 --> 00:38:33.560\nonly in the first\n\n766\n00:38:33.560 --> 00:38:37.930\ninning. But but that has set us up. So we needed technical expertise. But\n\n767\n00:38:37.930 --> 00:38:39.160\ncritically, we had to\n\n768\n00:38:39.160 --> 00:38:43.280\nto to own it ourselves and not depend on an outsourced partner. Now it's for\n\n769\n00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:44.200\npartners can be\n\n770\n00:38:44.200 --> 00:38:47.970\nusually valuable and are usually valuable to us. But I wanted to have enough of\n\n771\n00:38:47.970 --> 00:38:48.840\nthat kind of core\n\n772\n00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:53.000\ncapability inside the company to to know the questions to ask and to and to be\n\n773\n00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:53.720\ntrying to be\n\n774\n00:38:53.720 --> 00:38:56.440\nmore thoughtful about how we rolled it out. What do you think leaders today\n\n775\n00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:57.320\nshould be doing to get\n\n776\n00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:02.730\nsmart about AI? Again, back to get a lot of use and get a lot of opinions. I\n\n777\n00:39:02.730 --> 00:39:03.240\nthink\n\n778\n00:39:03.240 --> 00:39:07.830\na couple of things that I'm doing, one is absolutely talking to other CEOs and\n\n779\n00:39:07.830 --> 00:39:08.280\nother\n\n780\n00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:13.640\nindustries to see how it's being applied. Spending a lot of time talking to I\n\n781\n00:39:13.640 --> 00:39:14.680\n've got a lot of cousins\n\n782\n00:39:14.680 --> 00:39:20.230\nnieces and nephews. So yeah, it's interesting talking to someone who's about to\n\n783\n00:39:20.230 --> 00:39:21.240\ngo to college,\n\n784\n00:39:21.240 --> 00:39:25.330\nchoose used AI to effectively answer the question they were given in high\n\n785\n00:39:25.330 --> 00:39:26.680\nschool and then used AI\n\n786\n00:39:26.680 --> 00:39:30.590\nto mask that they used AI before they show it to the professor or started to\n\n787\n00:39:30.590 --> 00:39:33.000\nthe teacher. So I am\n\n788\n00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:36.520\ntrying to spend time with more digital natives. Of course, you're going to talk\n\n789\n00:39:36.520 --> 00:39:37.080\nto the quote on\n\n790\n00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:40.460\nquote usual suspects that are here to sell you something. Sometimes you learn\n\n791\n00:39:40.460 --> 00:39:41.640\nsomething but but\n\n792\n00:39:41.640 --> 00:39:45.550\nbut I don't know that it's worth the price of admission, but I do see how it's\n\n793\n00:39:45.550 --> 00:39:46.760\nbeing used elsewhere\n\n794\n00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:51.500\nis really important. And then I'm I'd say playing around with it a fair amount\n\n795\n00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:53.000\nmyself. It's been\n\n796\n00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:57.560\nabsolutely fascinating to me to see how do you do that. So I'm using I'm using\n\n797\n00:39:57.560 --> 00:39:58.440\njust chat GBT\n\n798\n00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:03.170\nand Grock. And I've just got apps on my phone. And I'm just just personally\n\n799\n00:40:03.170 --> 00:40:03.800\njust, you know,\n\n800\n00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:08.270\neither putting information into them asking questions, asking them to\n\n801\n00:40:08.270 --> 00:40:09.240\nmanipulate it.\n\n802\n00:40:09.240 --> 00:40:14.840\nSo I'm just kind of rolling up my seeds literally just as a as a as a hobbyist,\n\n803\n00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:15.560\nI guess would be\n\n804\n00:40:15.560 --> 00:40:19.110\nthe way to to think about it. And then and then come in and talk about with the\n\n805\n00:40:19.110 --> 00:40:21.160\nteam. But I still\n\n806\n00:40:21.160 --> 00:40:27.190\nfeel I've got this this nagging sense. I'm not going fast enough in that space.\n\n807\n00:40:27.190 --> 00:40:28.200\nAnd we run we run the\n\n808\n00:40:28.200 --> 00:40:32.150\nrisk of falling behind if somebody else gets there, gets there first. Well, you\n\n809\n00:40:32.150 --> 00:40:32.840\nhaven't fallen\n\n810\n00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:36.060\nbehind in terms of results you've generated. You've you've had revenue growth\n\n811\n00:40:36.060 --> 00:40:37.160\nyear after year,\n\n812\n00:40:37.160 --> 00:40:41.590\nbig revenue growth. And how do you, you know, as as a leader, how do you how do\n\n813\n00:40:41.590 --> 00:40:42.440\nyou overlap\n\n814\n00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:45.890\ngreat success? What's your what's your learning on how to get an organization\n\n815\n00:40:45.890 --> 00:40:47.000\nto go to the next step\n\n816\n00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:50.780\nafter you you have one great year now you got to do it again. You know, that\n\n817\n00:40:50.780 --> 00:40:51.800\nwears people out.\n\n818\n00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:56.120\nYou know, I mean, how do you how do you do it? Well, yeah, I keep kind of going\n\n819\n00:40:56.120 --> 00:40:56.600\nback to this\n\n820\n00:40:56.600 --> 00:41:02.440\npurpose of the company. Right. I mean, so it's it's again, the numbers, all\n\n821\n00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:03.240\nthese big numbers are\n\n822\n00:41:03.240 --> 00:41:07.400\nhard to wrap your head around, right? You know, 40 billion dollars in revenue,\n\n823\n00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:08.360\na trillion dollars\n\n824\n00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:12.000\nin coverage. I mean, it's like, how do you have? So I again, I keep kind of\n\n825\n00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.480\ngoing back to, you know,\n\n826\n00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:17.620\nwhat we did last year, you know, we we we paid who they claims to, you know,\n\n827\n00:41:17.620 --> 00:41:18.920\n112,000 families.\n\n828\n00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:25.560\nThat's 112,000 situations that really stunk most likely, but at least the part\n\n829\n00:41:25.560 --> 00:41:26.280\nof thinking of not\n\n830\n00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:31.480\nhaving money to pay a college tuition was was taken care of. So I again, it's\n\n831\n00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:32.680\nnot about taking the,\n\n832\n00:41:32.680 --> 00:41:37.040\nyou know, I love I love high compound annual growth rates over time, but more\n\n833\n00:41:37.040 --> 00:41:37.480\nimportantly,\n\n834\n00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.790\nit's like having having more family. So I mean, again, keep telling those\n\n835\n00:41:40.790 --> 00:41:42.040\nstories about how we\n\n836\n00:41:42.040 --> 00:41:46.840\nhelp folks is a is a is a pretty is a pretty good way to do it. As a leader, do\n\n837\n00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:47.320\nyou think that's\n\n838\n00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:51.630\nthe greatest difference you do in terms of driving results? I mean, if you had\n\n839\n00:41:51.630 --> 00:41:52.520\nto pick one thing\n\n840\n00:41:52.520 --> 00:41:56.800\nthat you do that contributes to these results, what would it be that thing you\n\n841\n00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:58.120\n're differentiator?\n\n842\n00:41:58.120 --> 00:42:01.940\nI think it all comes down to having having the right the right team, the right\n\n843\n00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:02.280\nleaders.\n\n844\n00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:09.080\nI think we've made some things you can look back decisions that you can say,\n\n845\n00:42:09.080 --> 00:42:12.140\nthat was a good strategic decision. And of course, we made them with the best\n\n846\n00:42:12.140 --> 00:42:12.920\ninformation kind of\n\n847\n00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:18.630\navailable at the time. I think building leadership teams over time that kind of\n\n848\n00:42:18.630 --> 00:42:19.960\nbuy into the purpose\n\n849\n00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:23.350\nand mission of the company. And then frankly, being aligned with the board as\n\n850\n00:42:23.350 --> 00:42:23.960\nwell, right?\n\n851\n00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:29.320\nIt's a unique situation. We're not, you know, not not being public. It's you\n\n852\n00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:29.960\nhave to think about\n\n853\n00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:34.380\nhow do you create the right long term incentive plans to align interests, you\n\n854\n00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:36.920\nknow, where timelines\n\n855\n00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:41.160\nmay be different again. I've got 150,000 policy holders that have been with us\n\n856\n00:42:41.160 --> 00:42:42.040\n50 years or more.\n\n857\n00:42:42.040 --> 00:42:46.920\nThat's that's kind of wild. My oldest policy holder has been with us 90, I\n\n858\n00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:49.080\nthink 91 years currently,\n\n859\n00:42:49.080 --> 00:42:54.540\nsadly, the oldest policy holder turns over with some regularity. But having a\n\n860\n00:42:54.540 --> 00:42:56.120\npolicy 90 plus years\n\n861\n00:42:56.120 --> 00:42:58.790\nis pretty common. You got to kind of keep that kind of alignment. But I think\n\n862\n00:42:58.790 --> 00:42:59.480\nmy biggest thing\n\n863\n00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:03.480\nis getting the right people setting the strategy and then encouraging to go.\n\n864\n00:43:04.200 --> 00:43:08.750\nYou know, great people want to work for leaders that they trust. So I'm curious\n\n865\n00:43:08.750 --> 00:43:09.560\n, Roger, you know,\n\n866\n00:43:09.560 --> 00:43:14.910\nwhat's one thing you've done intentionally to build trust within your\n\n867\n00:43:14.910 --> 00:43:16.200\nleadership team?\n\n868\n00:43:16.200 --> 00:43:21.560\nI've really, really had the view that first be transparent and authentic.\n\n869\n00:43:21.560 --> 00:43:27.640\nLike again, I could have smiled and put on a red shirt, red sock shirt and\n\n870\n00:43:27.640 --> 00:43:28.520\nwalked out and thrown\n\n871\n00:43:28.520 --> 00:43:33.600\nout the first pitch when they asked me to. And I said over my dead body, you\n\n872\n00:43:33.600 --> 00:43:34.040\nknow, so I think\n\n873\n00:43:34.040 --> 00:43:41.210\nbeing authentic in everything is very important. And then I think people can\n\n874\n00:43:41.210 --> 00:43:42.840\ntell if you're authentic\n\n875\n00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:48.080\nor not, and then that begins to feed on itself. So, you know, again, once I\n\n876\n00:43:48.080 --> 00:43:49.640\nfigured out how special\n\n877\n00:43:49.640 --> 00:43:56.130\nthis company is in terms of thinking about things in a multi-generational way,\n\n878\n00:43:56.130 --> 00:43:56.520\nabout being\n\n879\n00:43:56.520 --> 00:44:00.040\naligned with our policyholders, about always doing the right things for the\n\n880\n00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:00.920\npolicyholders.\n\n881\n00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:04.360\nPeople see that and it kind of pays off. So I think that transparency and\n\n882\n00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:05.480\nauthenticity is a\n\n883\n00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:11.420\nreally big deal. And then also, I've got your back, right? You know, mistakes\n\n884\n00:44:11.420 --> 00:44:12.600\nhappen. You know,\n\n885\n00:44:12.600 --> 00:44:18.820\nif things don't go well, I'm not going to throw you out. If you'll, you know, I\n\n886\n00:44:18.820 --> 00:44:19.720\ncheat your steel,\n\n887\n00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:23.650\nokay, that's different. It's a complex world out there. And if things don't go\n\n888\n00:44:23.650 --> 00:44:24.680\nwell, you know,\n\n889\n00:44:24.680 --> 00:44:29.720\nI want to make sure we have your back as well. And I've seen where you've said\n\n890\n00:44:29.720 --> 00:44:31.080\nit's important to\n\n891\n00:44:31.080 --> 00:44:35.240\nremember your past mistakes rather than push them underneath the rug. What's a\n\n892\n00:44:35.240 --> 00:44:36.440\nmistake that\n\n893\n00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:41.480\nyou personally keep coming back to because of how much you learn from it?\n\n894\n00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:46.360\nYeah, I mean, look, I will go back. We joked about losing $3 billion and I\n\n895\n00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:47.480\njoked about making 10\n\n896\n00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:54.920\nkind of somewhere else. We should not have lost about $3 billion. And again, it\n\n897\n00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:57.320\nwas something where\n\n898\n00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:03.980\nthere were people talking about the froth that was going on in the US housing\n\n899\n00:45:03.980 --> 00:45:04.760\nmarket at the time,\n\n900\n00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:08.480\nand there were people talking about what was happening with the really\n\n901\n00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:10.040\naggressive lending\n\n902\n00:45:10.040 --> 00:45:17.960\npractices. But, you know, relied too much on the perceived wisdom, which was\n\n903\n00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:19.480\nhome prices don't fall,\n\n904\n00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:22.360\nright? They haven't fallen since the Great Depression, right? That was what\n\n905\n00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:22.680\neveryone was\n\n906\n00:45:22.680 --> 00:45:28.540\nkind of saying at the time. So I kind of go back to that one and back to this,\n\n907\n00:45:28.540 --> 00:45:29.240\nmaking sure you're\n\n908\n00:45:29.240 --> 00:45:36.380\nreally talking to a wide array of folks. I also think it set up again, we got a\n\n909\n00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:36.920\nlittle bit of\n\n910\n00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:39.900\na group think there that hurt us in terms of getting our positions in the size\n\n911\n00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:40.440\nthey were.\n\n912\n00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.480\nSo I wish we'd only lost a billion instead of the free, I guess.\n\n913\n00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:47.560\nSometimes that's good. That would have been pretty good.\n\n914\n00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:51.480\nThat's in the balance sheet, right? With all the responsibility and the\n\n915\n00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:52.760\nprestige you have when\n\n916\n00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:57.910\nyou have the top role, I mean, what's one practice or mindset that keeps you\n\n917\n00:45:57.910 --> 00:45:58.920\ngrounded?\n\n918\n00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:03.160\nYeah, like one for me is, and again, I'm really fortunate, we have agents in\n\n919\n00:46:03.160 --> 00:46:03.800\nevery state,\n\n920\n00:46:05.640 --> 00:46:10.600\nas well as in some US territory. So I do get the opportunity to get around the\n\n921\n00:46:10.600 --> 00:46:12.040\ncountry and talk\n\n922\n00:46:12.040 --> 00:46:16.950\nto our advisors. And to me, it's just a great reminder of what we do and how it\n\n923\n00:46:16.950 --> 00:46:17.960\nworks. And it's\n\n924\n00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:22.230\nalso a great reminder to me of just how big and broader our country is. So\n\n925\n00:46:22.230 --> 00:46:24.120\nagain, sitting here in\n\n926\n00:46:24.120 --> 00:46:28.440\nMassachusetts today, in Massachusetts, it's just different than being in\n\n927\n00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.640\nTennessee. It's just\n\n928\n00:46:29.640 --> 00:46:32.800\ndifferent than being in Washington State. It's just different than being in\n\n929\n00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:34.680\nArizona. So I really,\n\n930\n00:46:34.680 --> 00:46:40.280\nreally, really like getting out and talking to our advisors who are, you know,\n\n931\n00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:41.640\nwe've got about\n\n932\n00:46:41.640 --> 00:46:48.140\n7,000 there from 22 years old to 78 years old. And it's a really, really,\n\n933\n00:46:48.140 --> 00:46:49.400\nreally great way to\n\n934\n00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:55.240\nremind me of what we really do and how we make a difference for folks.\n\n935\n00:46:55.240 --> 00:46:57.980\nYou know, Roger, that's been so much fun. And I want to have some more with you\n\n936\n00:46:57.980 --> 00:46:58.920\nwith a lightning\n\n937\n00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:02.520\nround of questions that I always ask. So are you ready for this? I'm afraid so.\n\n938\n00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:08.840\nThe three words that best describe you. Intense, choking, a little analytical,\n\n939\n00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:09.480\nI guess.\n\n940\n00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.920\nIf you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be?\n\n941\n00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:18.840\nBabe Ruth and the 27 Yankees. Your biggest pet peeve being late. I hate being\n\n942\n00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:19.240\nlate.\n\n943\n00:47:19.240 --> 00:47:22.360\nWho would play you in a movie? I have to ask my wife, but we'll go with Brad\n\n944\n00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:22.760\nPitt.\n\n945\n00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:25.880\nOh, well, you know, I always think of Ben Affleck like being in the game.\n\n946\n00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:31.800\nOkay. Your favorite place to fly, flyfish. I'm going to go with Tarpon off of\n\n947\n00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:33.080\nIsle of Marana.\n\n948\n00:47:33.080 --> 00:47:37.240\nAnd how about skiing? My son lives in Colorado, so I love skiing and bail.\n\n949\n00:47:37.240 --> 00:47:40.600\nYou might answer this, but it's your favorite Yankees player of all time.\n\n950\n00:47:40.600 --> 00:47:44.520\nMy favorite player is actually Ariado Riviera. He was awesome.\n\n951\n00:47:44.520 --> 00:47:48.120\nWhat's the one thing you do just for you? The one thing I've been doing for a\n\n952\n00:47:48.120 --> 00:47:48.440\nwhile,\n\n953\n00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:52.680\njust for me, is I meditate every morning for 10 minutes to try to get grounded\n\n954\n00:47:52.680 --> 00:47:53.320\nbefore the day\n\n955\n00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:56.830\nstarts. And that's totally me time. Besides your family, what's your most\n\n956\n00:47:56.830 --> 00:47:57.880\nprized possession?\n\n957\n00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:01.320\nMy old pair of skis that I've been using once in a while just for fun that I've\n\n958\n00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:02.040\nhad since I was\n\n959\n00:48:02.040 --> 00:48:05.800\nin a college. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear?\n\n960\n00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:09.560\nWell, probably CNBC. What's something about you a few people would know?\n\n961\n00:48:09.560 --> 00:48:13.400\nI've been told this that I've actually had a pretty good sense of humor. I come\n\n962\n00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:14.280\nacross as I\n\n963\n00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:19.710\nam smiling kind of guy, but I do like a good joke. What's one of your daily\n\n964\n00:48:19.710 --> 00:48:21.000\nrituals? Besides\n\n965\n00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:24.730\nmeditation that you never miss, I got to do my push-ups when I wake up in the\n\n966\n00:48:24.730 --> 00:48:25.400\nmorning.\n\n967\n00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:29.000\nThat's great. We're out of the lightning round. Super job. I got a few more\n\n968\n00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:29.640\nquestions. I'll let\n\n969\n00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:35.510\nyou get back to selling some life insurance here. But how do you lead at home,\n\n970\n00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:35.800\nRoger?\n\n971\n00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:42.040\nWhat do you try to do when you go home? I try to remind myself, I am not the\n\n972\n00:48:42.040 --> 00:48:44.760\nCEO of the family.\n\n973\n00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:52.520\nI'm the father, or I'm the son, or I'm the brother. So I try very hard to\n\n974\n00:48:52.520 --> 00:48:54.360\nremember that\n\n975\n00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:01.720\nit's not my, they're not the CEO at home. My wife reminds me frequently I have\n\n976\n00:49:01.720 --> 00:49:02.280\nopportunities\n\n977\n00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:06.020\nto improve my success factor in that one. That's the biggest thing you've\n\n978\n00:49:06.020 --> 00:49:06.600\nlearned from\n\n979\n00:49:06.600 --> 00:49:11.790\nyour wife about leadership. Far and away, the biggest is the old saying. It's\n\n980\n00:49:11.790 --> 00:49:12.760\nhow you make people feel.\n\n981\n00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:21.990\nAnd a few moments with anybody can make them feel like they've been seen or\n\n982\n00:49:21.990 --> 00:49:22.600\nheard,\n\n983\n00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:27.950\nand everyone wants to be seen and heard. How about your kids? It's interesting,\n\n984\n00:49:27.950 --> 00:49:28.920\nneither of my kids\n\n985\n00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:36.520\nare in the financial field. What I've learned, one in particular is a filmmaker\n\n986\n00:49:36.520 --> 00:49:36.520\n,\n\n987\n00:49:36.520 --> 00:49:42.600\nis how much I can learn from him about something I know anything about, and\n\n988\n00:49:42.600 --> 00:49:43.480\nthat's the creative\n\n989\n00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:48.380\ncreator side. I'm not an artist. He is, and he has something to teach me every\n\n990\n00:49:48.380 --> 00:49:49.080\nday about that.\n\n991\n00:49:49.080 --> 00:49:54.760\nAnd what's the biggest thing you learn from that? You may think you know\n\n992\n00:49:54.760 --> 00:49:55.640\neverything,\n\n993\n00:49:55.640 --> 00:50:01.590\nor you know a lot, and you know thimblefuls of what there is out there to know.\n\n994\n00:50:01.590 --> 00:50:04.840\nSo it's very\n\n995\n00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:09.880\nhumbling. And what do you see as your unfinished business, Roger? I'll tell you\n\n996\n00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:12.360\n, on the Mass\n\n997\n00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:18.380\nMutual side, look, we've had it, we've had a great run. But the next, I think,\n\n998\n00:50:18.380 --> 00:50:19.240\nfive years is going to\n\n999\n00:50:19.240 --> 00:50:23.480\nredefine how this industry looks, this integration of asset management and\n\n1000\n00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:26.600\ninsurance is entering the\n\n1001\n00:50:26.600 --> 00:50:33.070\nend game. And the consolidation of distribution is the same way. So I've\n\n1002\n00:50:33.070 --> 00:50:34.600\nbrought us to the final\n\n1003\n00:50:34.600 --> 00:50:37.630\nround of the poker game is the way I think about it. We need to get to the end\n\n1004\n00:50:37.630 --> 00:50:38.440\nof the poker game and\n\n1005\n00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:42.110\nmake sure we're a scale player when it's all when the consolidation is all\n\n1006\n00:50:42.110 --> 00:50:42.840\nfinished.\n\n1007\n00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:47.240\nAnd last question here, what's one piece of advice you give to anyone who wants\n\n1008\n00:50:47.240 --> 00:50:47.800\nto be a better\n\n1009\n00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:52.220\nleader? Absolutely. Just spend time with your people, right? You have to\n\n1010\n00:50:52.220 --> 00:50:54.200\nunderstand how people's\n\n1011\n00:50:54.200 --> 00:50:58.750\nhopes, dreams, and fears to be able to help drive them to achieve something\n\n1012\n00:50:58.750 --> 00:51:00.120\nbigger than themselves.\n\n1013\n00:51:00.120 --> 00:51:04.280\nAnd there's no, there's no way to do it from the outside. You've got to be,\n\n1014\n00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:08.280\nas Roosevelt said, you got to be in the arena. And there's nowhere more\n\n1015\n00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:08.920\nimportant to be in the\n\n1016\n00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:12.760\narena with your own people. I got to ask you before I let you go, you talk\n\n1017\n00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:14.520\nabout the importance of\n\n1018\n00:51:14.520 --> 00:51:20.590\nstories. What do you think is the book? Can you tell us the most powerful story\n\n1019\n00:51:20.590 --> 00:51:22.040\nyou have in your\n\n1020\n00:51:22.040 --> 00:51:27.680\nbusiness career? It's the story of how this place started. A 27-year-old who\n\n1021\n00:51:27.680 --> 00:51:28.520\nwas a Connecticut\n\n1022\n00:51:28.520 --> 00:51:33.760\nmutual agent said, \"Gosh darn it. Massachusetts should have a mutual company\n\n1023\n00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:34.920\ntoo.\" And he raised\n\n1024\n00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:41.220\n$100,000 from 31 people. He started Mass Mutual, also became the mayor's\n\n1025\n00:51:41.220 --> 00:51:42.040\nSpringfield,\n\n1026\n00:51:42.040 --> 00:51:49.390\nand that $100,000 and 31 people is now $34 billion of capital, a trillion of\n\n1027\n00:51:49.390 --> 00:51:50.440\ncoverage,\n\n1028\n00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:55.520\nand $4 million, you know, policyholders. And it just started with someone\n\n1029\n00:51:55.520 --> 00:51:56.600\nsaying, you know,\n\n1030\n00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:02.280\nI can do this. Why can't I do this? Right? And I just, I would love to be kind\n\n1031\n00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:03.000\nof cool to go back\n\n1032\n00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:08.040\nin time and spend a day with Kyle O'Briess and be like, what are we doing? But\n\n1033\n00:52:08.040 --> 00:52:08.440\nagain,\n\n1034\n00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:11.800\nyou know, seemed like a normal thing to him. Let's just raise some money, start\n\n1035\n00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:12.120\na company.\n\n1036\n00:52:12.120 --> 00:52:15.320\nHere we are, 175 years later, one of the biggest in our industry and still had\n\n1037\n00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:18.360\ngood order here in Springfield. And you and your people are doing it. So\n\n1038\n00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:19.480\ncongratulations,\n\n1039\n00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:22.920\nand thank you so much, Roger, for being on this show. Appreciate it. Well,\n\n1040\n00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:23.640\nthank you very much for\n\n1041\n00:52:23.640 --> 00:52:27.880\nhaving me. It's great to have a great, great, great talk with you.\n\n1042\n00:52:27.880 --> 00:52:36.680\nI got to tell you, Roger Crandall surprised me a little today. Yeah, he's\n\n1043\n00:52:36.680 --> 00:52:38.600\nanalytical. And yes,\n\n1044\n00:52:38.600 --> 00:52:43.240\nhe knows the numbers inside and out, but he also knows that behind every data\n\n1045\n00:52:43.240 --> 00:52:44.360\npoint is a person,\n\n1046\n00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:49.550\na story and a purpose. And that's what makes his leadership so compelling. Let\n\n1047\n00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:49.880\nme tell you,\n\n1048\n00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:54.120\nwhen you're asking people to work hard or navigate change or rally around the\n\n1049\n00:52:54.120 --> 00:52:55.000\nlong-term goal,\n\n1050\n00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:59.480\nyou got to give them more than data points and KPIs. You got to give them\n\n1051\n00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:00.440\nsomething bigger,\n\n1052\n00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:05.880\nthat noble cause that we all need to feel connected to our work. Roger is so\n\n1053\n00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:06.360\ngood about\n\n1054\n00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:11.080\ntelling those stories and listening to other stories too, so he never loses\n\n1055\n00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:11.960\nsight of what the\n\n1056\n00:53:11.960 --> 00:53:17.280\nnumbers mean and why they matter. So here's your challenge this week. Think\n\n1057\n00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:18.360\nabout a big number you're\n\n1058\n00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:23.210\ntrying to hit, a revenue or sales goal maybe. Now ask yourself, how can you\n\n1059\n00:53:23.210 --> 00:53:23.960\nbring the number\n\n1060\n00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:28.300\nto life? Is there a story you can tell, a way to represent it with a little\n\n1061\n00:53:28.300 --> 00:53:29.400\nmore humanity?\n\n1062\n00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:34.210\nThat's how you connect with people to that goal in a way that ties into their\n\n1063\n00:53:34.210 --> 00:53:34.760\nvalues\n\n1064\n00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:38.900\nor their identity. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned\n\n1065\n00:53:38.900 --> 00:53:39.400\ntoday is that\n\n1066\n00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:44.360\ngreat leaders make the numbers mean something. Coming up next on how leaders\n\n1067\n00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:45.400\nlead is Tom Hale,\n\n1068\n00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:50.200\nCEO of Aura. So be sure to subscribe on your YouTube or wherever you get your\n\n1069\n00:53:50.200 --> 00:53:50.840\npodcasts and\n\n1070\n00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:55.790\nthat you don't miss it. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How\n\n1071\n00:53:55.790 --> 00:53:56.840\nLeaders Lead where\n\n1072\n00:53:56.840 --> 00:54:00.780\nevery Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best\n\n1073\n00:54:00.780 --> 00:54:02.200\nleaders in the world.\n\n1074\n00:54:02.200 --> 00:54:06.360\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1075\n00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:07.800\napply to your business\n\n1076\n00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:15.240\nso that you will become the best leader you can be.\n","is_pinned",false,"pinned_at","is_featured","featured_at","mix_url","https://chtbl.com/track/DCB44F/traffic.megaphone.fm/DVL6418714529.mp3","dx_media_id",2429,"video_media_id","thumbnail_image_media_id","published_date","2025-08-21","itunes_episode_id",253,"youtube_id","CJ4Noux54qI","2025-08-21T15:22:29.000000Z","dx_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/MyLYN6ZfeRCnNKhZyU7z16mpudEeihtptDLRM2Ku.mp3","dx_filename","MyLYN6ZfeRCnNKhZyU7z16mpudEeihtptDLRM2Ku.mp3","dx_mux_playback_id","pdqNWJ6CqwIwE2cbGlrj2V1m5WlVBsIy2yN2HxHvCG4","dx_waveform_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/waveforms/2429.json","video_url","video_mux_playback_id","duration",3250930,"thumbnail_url","https://img.youtube.com/vi/CJ4Noux54qI/maxresdefault.jpg","thumbnail_image_url","dx_media",{"_13":66,"_95":79,"_96":77,"_97":-5,"_31":81,"_33":98,"_99":-5,"_100":83,"_86":87,"_101":-5},"video_media","thumbnail_image_media","filename","url","status","3j00I2rzUjpxcjJSAK7krU01lIP6DribfVGy5mjq00QdO00","mux_upload_id","waveform_url","preview_media_id","first_name","Roger","last_name","Crandall","job_title","MassMutual, Chairman, President and CEO","Roger Crandall, CEO, MassMutual, finance, financial, insurance","external_links","https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-crandall-massmutual,https://www.businessroundtable.org/members/roger-w.-crandall,https://www.bostonfed.org/people/bank/roger-w-crandall.aspx",0,"image_media_id",2425,2426,"2026-07-20T20:45:14.000000Z","send_push_notification_at","image_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/15XammGCwLK1o74trEcwkS5lrZG1p779P6ZyaNdS.jpg","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/fQGe83LEOnX3tzVah7KduLanP1OSiHxoDAQIF6Nj.jpg","https://www.howleaderslead.com/leaders/241/roger-crandall","industry_id",6,"industry",{"_13":122,"_133":134,"_135":137},"industries",[132],"image_media",{"_13":113,"_95":131,"_96":118,"_97":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_99":-5,"_100":-5,"_86":-5,"_101":-5},{"_13":114,"_95":130,"_96":119,"_97":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_99":-5,"_100":-5,"_86":-5,"_101":-5},"fQGe83LEOnX3tzVah7KduLanP1OSiHxoDAQIF6Nj.jpg","15XammGCwLK1o74trEcwkS5lrZG1p779P6ZyaNdS.jpg",{"_13":122,"_133":134,"_135":136},"name","Finance","pivot",{"_35":36,"_121":122},{"_35":36,"_121":122},"user","token","favorites",[],"collections",[],"env",{"_146":147,"_148":149,"_150":151,"_152":153,"_154":155},"GOOGLE_CLIENT_ID","644017954836-qpllhu38r0tsrtfq85ukntcvsb0akbht.apps.googleusercontent.com","APPLE_CLIENT_ID","com.howleaderslead.webapp","APPLE_REDIRECT_URI","https://www.howleaderslead.com/auth/apple-callback","APP_URL","https://howleaderslead.com","GTM_ID",""]