[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_137":-5,"_138":-5,"_139":140,"_141":142,"_143":144},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/725/reframe-sales-as-service-to-others","id",725,"title","Reframe sales as service to others","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.760\nbusiness. As humans, we're wired to be selfish, because that's how we survive.\n\n2\n00:00:05.760 --> 00:00:06.280\nWe need to\n\n3\n00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:10.750\neat and we need to secure ourselves and be safe. I think as we've evolved as\n\n4\n00:00:10.750 --> 00:00:11.280\nhumans,\n\n5\n00:00:11.280 --> 00:00:15.650\nwe've tried to fight against some of our selfish instincts that are encoded in\n\n6\n00:00:15.650 --> 00:00:16.120\nwho we\n\n7\n00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:21.380\nare. One of the things that really helps me is to think about, and it actually\n\n8\n00:00:21.380 --> 00:00:22.200\nis a really\n\n9\n00:00:22.200 --> 00:00:26.850\nimportant psychological trick that I use that helps me feel confident about\n\n10\n00:00:26.850 --> 00:00:27.720\ntrying to sell\n\n11\n00:00:27.720 --> 00:00:31.280\nwhat I do. It's a sales job. I want people to listen to how I built this. I\n\n12\n00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:31.640\nwant them\n\n13\n00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:38.320\nto listen to wisdom from the top. Really, what helps me \"sell\" those shows is\n\n14\n00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:38.720\nto think\n\n15\n00:00:38.720 --> 00:00:43.160\nabout what I do in service of others. Of course, it's how I make a living. I\n\n16\n00:00:43.160 --> 00:00:44.040\nearn money from\n\n17\n00:00:44.040 --> 00:00:51.330\nthat. It's not an entirely selfless operation, but at its core, at its heart,\n\n18\n00:00:51.330 --> 00:00:52.520\nwhat I'm doing\n\n19\n00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:57.400\nis trying to serve the people who don't have access to the founders I have\n\n20\n00:00:57.400 --> 00:00:58.440\naccess to. I\n\n21\n00:00:58.440 --> 00:01:02.210\ncan call pretty much any founder and get them on how I built this. We're really\n\n22\n00:01:02.210 --> 00:01:02.880\nprivileged\n\n23\n00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:06.630\nand lucky because we have a big platform and audience. I take that\n\n24\n00:01:06.630 --> 00:01:08.680\nresponsibility very seriously,\n\n25\n00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.390\nbecause I think about somebody who's got a small brick and mortar store, who's\n\n26\n00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:12.800\ntrying\n\n27\n00:01:12.800 --> 00:01:16.810\nto figure out how to create a second location, or somebody who's running a shop\n\n28\n00:01:16.810 --> 00:01:17.560\non Etsy,\n\n29\n00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:22.860\nand thinking about how to scale or expand. I think about what I do as a free\n\n30\n00:01:22.860 --> 00:01:23.640\nbusiness\n\n31\n00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:29.890\nschool course for them. A service that is free that will hopefully give them\n\n32\n00:01:29.890 --> 00:01:30.680\ninformation\n\n33\n00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:36.360\nthat is useful. To me, I really do think about what I do in service of others.\n\n34\n00:01:36.360 --> 00:01:36.920\nActually,\n\n35\n00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.120\nthat's what drives me. I get jazzed about that. I love that.\n\n36\n00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:41.440\nI love that, too.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",293000,"end_time",391879,"keywords","Sales, selling, service, servant leadership, honest selling, platform","slug","reframe-sales-as-service-to-others","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","QuQ00WNmFlCFY4czuvfFEiChq4rLvMZW5KRr8NzQP02kM","mux_asset_id","L6glngGQnO01uq54TVRt86V00UQ9pxZC00qE01BZPQh00244","leader_id",48,"episode_id",195,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:36:43.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/725/reframe-sales-as-service-to-others","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_100":101,"_102":103,"_104":105,"_25":106,"_107":108,"_61":109,"_58":110,"_111":112,"_68":113,"_39":114,"_115":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_116":117,"_88":118,"_44":119,"_120":121,"_122":123,"_46":-5,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_92":128,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":-5,"_54":55,"_18":56,"_20":57,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":-5,"_35":36,"_39":74,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_75":76,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":-5,"_84":-5,"_85":86,"_87":-5,"_88":-5,"_46":-5,"_89":90,"_91":-5,"_92":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Acting in Service of Others","acting-in-service-of-others","summary","

Guy is a remarkable leader who not only has the most soothing voice you’ll ever hear, but the motivation behind all that he does is something we can all learn from and be inspired by. And it’s this: he wants to serve his listeners and add value to their lives.

I’ll tell ya’ ... I can’t think of a better quality of leadership than that—doing all that you do in service of others.

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The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

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","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.850\nWelcome to Howl Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:06.850 --> 00:00:07.600\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:09.600\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:09.600 --> 00:00:12.880\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:13.480\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:17.280\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:19.960\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:26.440\nToday's guest is Guy Ross, the host and creator of two wildly popular podcasts.\n\n9\n00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:30.240\nHow I built this and wisdom from the top.\n\n10\n00:00:30.240 --> 00:00:34.460\nIn fact, I was just interviewed on wisdom from the top, which is how Guy and I\n\n11\n00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:34.880\ngot to\n\n12\n00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.520\nknow each other.\n\n13\n00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:41.730\nGuy is a remarkable leader who not only has the most soothing voice you'll ever\n\n14\n00:00:41.730 --> 00:00:42.280\nhear,\n\n15\n00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:46.880\nbut the motivation behind all that he does is something that we can all learn\n\n16\n00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:47.480\nfrom and\n\n17\n00:00:47.480 --> 00:00:49.040\nbe inspired by.\n\n18\n00:00:49.040 --> 00:00:54.040\nAnd it's this, he wants to serve his listeners and all those that work with him\n\n19\n00:00:54.040 --> 00:00:55.080\nand add value\n\n20\n00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.600\nto their lives.\n\n21\n00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:00.840\nAnd I'll tell you, I can't think of a better quality of leadership than that,\n\n22\n00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:01.320\ndoing all\n\n23\n00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:04.040\nthat you do in service of others.\n\n24\n00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:05.640\nLet's not wait any longer.\n\n25\n00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:12.400\nHere's my conversation with my friend and soon to be yours, Guy Ross.\n\n26\n00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:19.480\nNow, Guy, I'm sure you're a little nervous because you're new to this whole\n\n27\n00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:20.920\npodcast thing.\n\n28\n00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:21.920\nBut don't worry.\n\n29\n00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.800\nI'm going to coach you through it and it will have a little fun.\n\n30\n00:01:25.800 --> 00:01:26.800\nOkay.\n\n31\n00:01:26.800 --> 00:01:27.800\nThank you.\n\n32\n00:01:27.800 --> 00:01:31.520\nBut you know, it's funny you say that David because I've been in broadcasting\n\n33\n00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:32.000\nand now\n\n34\n00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:35.200\nwe call it podcasting for 25 years.\n\n35\n00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:39.520\nAnd every time I do an interview or when I speak, it doesn't matter how\n\n36\n00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:40.440\nexperienced\n\n37\n00:01:40.440 --> 00:01:41.440\nI am.\n\n38\n00:01:41.440 --> 00:01:46.960\nI always get a little nervous and I remember a veteran telling me 10 years ago,\n\n39\n00:01:46.960 --> 00:01:47.600\nhe said,\n\n40\n00:01:47.600 --> 00:01:51.110\nthe moment you stop getting nervous is the moment that you've got to try\n\n41\n00:01:51.110 --> 00:01:52.040\nsomething new\n\n42\n00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.320\nbecause you're not challenging yourself enough.\n\n43\n00:01:54.320 --> 00:01:57.280\nSo I do get a little nervous even now, every time.\n\n44\n00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.870\nWell, I'm glad you're nervous for this show and I'm really looking forward to\n\n45\n00:02:00.870 --> 00:02:02.040\nthis conversation.\n\n46\n00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:05.840\nI recently had the honor of being on your podcast, Wisdom from the Top.\n\n47\n00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.080\nAnd I loved listening to your podcast.\n\n48\n00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:12.160\nSo when I got that chance to be on your podcast, I have to tell you it really\n\n49\n00:02:12.160 --> 00:02:13.200\nwas an honor.\n\n50\n00:02:13.200 --> 00:02:17.410\nBut I learned when we were talking afterwards that you're really pretty much of\n\n51\n00:02:17.410 --> 00:02:18.080\nan entrepreneur\n\n52\n00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:19.480\nyourself these days.\n\n53\n00:02:19.480 --> 00:02:21.400\nTell us about what you've got going on.\n\n54\n00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:23.670\nYou know, it's something I don't talk about too much in part because I don't\n\n55\n00:02:23.670 --> 00:02:24.120\nreally want\n\n56\n00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:25.880\nto take any attention away from the shows.\n\n57\n00:02:25.880 --> 00:02:28.440\nTo me, the shows I do, that's the star.\n\n58\n00:02:28.440 --> 00:02:29.920\nI'm not the star of the show.\n\n59\n00:02:29.920 --> 00:02:32.190\nHow I built this is and the guests are, you know, how I built this or wisdom\n\n60\n00:02:32.190 --> 00:02:32.560\nfrom the\n\n61\n00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.720\ntop or we've got a kids podcast going on the world.\n\n62\n00:02:35.720 --> 00:02:37.720\nFor me, it's the content is king.\n\n63\n00:02:37.720 --> 00:02:38.720\nThat's the star.\n\n64\n00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:42.410\nAnd so I haven't really talked about my own entrepreneurial ventures in part\n\n65\n00:02:42.410 --> 00:02:43.120\nbecause I've\n\n66\n00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.400\nnever really thought it was relevant, but increasingly I'm coming to understand\n\n67\n00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:46.520\nthat\n\n68\n00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:51.750\nit is in part because there are a lot of people who are creating companies and\n\n69\n00:02:51.750 --> 00:02:52.680\nbusinesses\n\n70\n00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:58.120\naround content creation around what they're putting out on YouTube or, you know\n\n71\n00:02:58.120 --> 00:02:59.120\n, in podcasts\n\n72\n00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:00.120\nor on social media.\n\n73\n00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:02.360\nAnd it's a really interesting ecosystem.\n\n74\n00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:05.720\nFor me, I've got two companies that I co-founded.\n\n75\n00:03:05.720 --> 00:03:08.540\nOne company I co-founded, one company I founded, the company I founded is\n\n76\n00:03:08.540 --> 00:03:10.240\ncalled Builted Productions.\n\n77\n00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.120\nAnd you can pretty much guess what that does.\n\n78\n00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:17.640\nIt produces podcasts like How I Built This and Wisdom from the Top.\n\n79\n00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:20.960\nAnd we are in partnership with Amazon Music and Wondery.\n\n80\n00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.760\nSo we'll be launching new shows in the fall.\n\n81\n00:03:23.760 --> 00:03:28.610\nAnd the basic premise of that production company, we've got 10 or so employees,\n\n82\n00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:29.760\nis that we\n\n83\n00:03:29.760 --> 00:03:34.480\nreally want to create content that is worth your time.\n\n84\n00:03:34.480 --> 00:03:42.090\nSo essentially the way I think about shows is we all have roughly 16 to 18\n\n85\n00:03:42.090 --> 00:03:43.360\nwaking hours\n\n86\n00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.880\nduring the day, let's say 16, right?\n\n87\n00:03:45.880 --> 00:03:49.960\nAnd most of us, if we're lucky, have one to two, maybe three hours of personal\n\n88\n00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:50.560\ntime,\n\n89\n00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:55.400\nwhich might include running, exercising, cooking, driving, commuting.\n\n90\n00:03:55.400 --> 00:04:01.360\nAnd I'm asking you to give me 45 minutes to an hour of that precious time.\n\n91\n00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:04.480\nAnd so what I give you better be worth your time.\n\n92\n00:04:04.480 --> 00:04:08.990\nAnd for me to earn your time, I've got to make something really powerful,\n\n93\n00:04:08.990 --> 00:04:09.840\ncompelling\n\n94\n00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.960\nand value add for your day and your life.\n\n95\n00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.040\nAnd so that's how we think about what we do.\n\n96\n00:04:15.040 --> 00:04:16.840\nWe're not writing masterpieces every day.\n\n97\n00:04:16.840 --> 00:04:18.200\nI'm not Shakespeare.\n\n98\n00:04:18.200 --> 00:04:23.260\nBut we really try to create things that we think will at least give somebody\n\n99\n00:04:23.260 --> 00:04:24.080\nsomething\n\n100\n00:04:24.080 --> 00:04:28.730\nto think about and walk away from having learned something or gives them a tool\n\n101\n00:04:28.730 --> 00:04:29.440\nto improve\n\n102\n00:04:29.440 --> 00:04:30.440\nwhat they do.\n\n103\n00:04:30.440 --> 00:04:33.720\nYeah, I want to ask you something about that because when I talk to founders\n\n104\n00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:34.280\nand when I\n\n105\n00:04:34.280 --> 00:04:37.960\nlisten to your how I built this podcast, it seems like these founders all seem\n\n106\n00:04:37.960 --> 00:04:38.280\nto have\n\n107\n00:04:38.280 --> 00:04:40.600\nsome sort of noble cause.\n\n108\n00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:44.330\nThey don't really go into these things to get rich, but they're trying to\n\n109\n00:04:44.330 --> 00:04:45.000\nenrich the\n\n110\n00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.000\nworld.\n\n111\n00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:50.650\nSo this notion of being worth your time, that seems like your noble causes of\n\n112\n00:04:50.650 --> 00:04:51.800\nthis particular\n\n113\n00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:53.800\nbusiness.\n\n114\n00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:56.520\nAs humans, we're kind of wired to be selfish, right?\n\n115\n00:04:56.520 --> 00:04:57.680\nBecause that's how we survive.\n\n116\n00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:01.480\nWe need to eat and we need to secure ourselves and be safe.\n\n117\n00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.460\nAnd I think as we've evolved as humans, we've tried to fight against some of\n\n118\n00:05:05.460 --> 00:05:06.000\nour selfish\n\n119\n00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:09.160\ninstincts that are encoded in who we are.\n\n120\n00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:13.570\nAnd one of the things that really helps me is to think about, and it actually\n\n121\n00:05:13.570 --> 00:05:14.120\nis a really\n\n122\n00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:18.660\nimportant kind of psychological trick that I use that helps me feel confident\n\n123\n00:05:18.660 --> 00:05:19.280\nabout trying\n\n124\n00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:20.480\nto sell what I do.\n\n125\n00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:21.640\nBecause it's a sales job.\n\n126\n00:05:21.640 --> 00:05:23.200\nI want people to listen to how I built this.\n\n127\n00:05:23.200 --> 00:05:25.400\nI want them to listen to wisdom on the top.\n\n128\n00:05:25.400 --> 00:05:30.970\nBut really, what helps me quote unquote sell those shows is to think about what\n\n129\n00:05:30.970 --> 00:05:31.480\nI do in\n\n130\n00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:33.320\nservice of others.\n\n131\n00:05:33.320 --> 00:05:35.040\nNow of course, it's how I make a living.\n\n132\n00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:36.480\nI earn money from that.\n\n133\n00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:42.050\nAnd so it's not a selfless, you know, entirely selfless operation, but at its\n\n134\n00:05:42.050 --> 00:05:42.920\ncore, at its\n\n135\n00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:48.040\nheart, what I'm doing is trying to serve the people who don't have access to\n\n136\n00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:49.040\nthe founders\n\n137\n00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.200\nI have access to.\n\n138\n00:05:50.200 --> 00:05:53.720\nYou know, I can call pretty much any founder and get them on how I built this.\n\n139\n00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:58.040\nWe're really privileged and lucky because we have a big platform and audience.\n\n140\n00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:02.070\nBut I take that responsibility very seriously because I think about somebody\n\n141\n00:06:02.070 --> 00:06:02.840\nwho's got a\n\n142\n00:06:02.840 --> 00:06:06.350\nsmall brick and mortar store who's trying to figure out how to create a second\n\n143\n00:06:06.350 --> 00:06:06.880\nlocation\n\n144\n00:06:06.880 --> 00:06:11.390\nor somebody who's running a shop on Etsy and thinking about how to scale or\n\n145\n00:06:11.390 --> 00:06:12.200\nexpand.\n\n146\n00:06:12.200 --> 00:06:16.830\nAnd I think about what I do as a free business school course for them, you know\n\n147\n00:06:16.830 --> 00:06:17.640\n, a service\n\n148\n00:06:17.640 --> 00:06:23.600\nthat is free that will hopefully give them information that is useful.\n\n149\n00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:28.160\nAnd so to me, I really do think about what I do in service of others.\n\n150\n00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:29.920\nAnd it actually, that's what drives me.\n\n151\n00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:31.240\nI get jazzed about that.\n\n152\n00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:32.240\nYou know, I love that.\n\n153\n00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:33.240\nI love that too.\n\n154\n00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:36.490\nAnd you know, a good friend of mine, Tim Schur just wrote this book called The\n\n155\n00:06:36.490 --> 00:06:37.360\nSecret Society\n\n156\n00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:38.360\nSuccess.\n\n157\n00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:43.470\nAny list, all kinds of example of people who found that extra gratification by\n\n158\n00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:44.040\nbeing other\n\n159\n00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:45.040\ndirected.\n\n160\n00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.200\nAnd I want you to talk about your other business.\n\n161\n00:06:47.200 --> 00:06:52.140\nBut before I do, you know, it seems like the happiest people in the world based\n\n162\n00:06:52.140 --> 00:06:52.600\non all\n\n163\n00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:55.840\nthe research are those people that are other directed.\n\n164\n00:06:55.840 --> 00:06:58.320\nYou know, what do you think makes that so?\n\n165\n00:06:58.320 --> 00:07:01.510\nThere's been, and I'm not a neuroscientist or social scientist, but I've talked\n\n166\n00:07:01.510 --> 00:07:01.960\nto many\n\n167\n00:07:01.960 --> 00:07:02.960\nof them.\n\n168\n00:07:02.960 --> 00:07:07.700\nAnd I think that there is a very clear connection between giving and an\n\n169\n00:07:07.700 --> 00:07:09.200\nincrease in serotonin\n\n170\n00:07:09.200 --> 00:07:14.520\nand oxytocin in these chemicals in our body that are triggered when we give.\n\n171\n00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:18.520\nThere's something about giving that really does trigger happiness.\n\n172\n00:07:18.520 --> 00:07:23.150\nAnd so it's a kind of strange thing, which is you find that people who are\n\n173\n00:07:23.150 --> 00:07:24.320\nphilanthropic,\n\n174\n00:07:24.320 --> 00:07:27.240\nthey are of course motivated by the desire to do well.\n\n175\n00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:28.440\nYou're very philanthropic.\n\n176\n00:07:28.440 --> 00:07:29.440\nYou want to help.\n\n177\n00:07:29.440 --> 00:07:30.840\nYou want to use your resources.\n\n178\n00:07:30.840 --> 00:07:34.520\nBut it also, there's also a really important return on that, which is it makes\n\n179\n00:07:34.520 --> 00:07:35.000\nyou feel\n\n180\n00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:38.490\nreally good about what you're doing because it makes you feel like you are\n\n181\n00:07:38.490 --> 00:07:39.080\nmoving the\n\n182\n00:07:39.080 --> 00:07:42.560\nneedle and making a contribution to it needed change.\n\n183\n00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:48.720\nAnd so I think that the idea of being in service is very much a very kind of\n\n184\n00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:49.920\nhuman response\n\n185\n00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.810\nbecause being happy or seeking happiness, David, and I think about happiness a\n\n186\n00:07:53.810 --> 00:07:55.040\nlot because\n\n187\n00:07:55.040 --> 00:08:01.040\nhappiness is hard to be happy for most of us requires work.\n\n188\n00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.160\nIt requires constant work.\n\n189\n00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.120\nIt requires things like thinking about what you do in service of others.\n\n190\n00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.600\nIt requires taking care of yourself.\n\n191\n00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:12.760\nIt requires being part of a community and it's not easy.\n\n192\n00:08:12.760 --> 00:08:14.320\nIt's not always easy to do those things.\n\n193\n00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:17.600\nIt takes work and we're not always happy all the time.\n\n194\n00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.970\nThere are moments where we're not happy, but it's this magical thing that we're\n\n195\n00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:21.760\nall chasing\n\n196\n00:08:21.760 --> 00:08:22.760\nafter.\n\n197\n00:08:22.760 --> 00:08:26.750\nWell, there's a secret to it and I think we're both working at it is best of\n\n198\n00:08:26.750 --> 00:08:27.720\nour ability.\n\n199\n00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:28.880\nTell me about your other business.\n\n200\n00:08:28.880 --> 00:08:32.080\nYeah, I have a company that I co-founded called Tinkercast.\n\n201\n00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:33.880\nIt's a children and family media company.\n\n202\n00:08:33.880 --> 00:08:36.400\nI co-founded it with two friends of mine.\n\n203\n00:08:36.400 --> 00:08:39.400\nIt started out as an idea back in 2016.\n\n204\n00:08:39.400 --> 00:08:44.490\nI have a good friend named Mindy Thomas and she is an extremely talented\n\n205\n00:08:44.490 --> 00:08:45.880\nchildren's radio\n\n206\n00:08:45.880 --> 00:08:47.400\npersonality.\n\n207\n00:08:47.400 --> 00:08:52.480\nShe has a show on SiriusXM and I had been appearing on her show as her kind of\n\n208\n00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:53.800\nnews person just\n\n209\n00:08:53.800 --> 00:08:55.640\nfor fun once a week.\n\n210\n00:08:55.640 --> 00:09:00.770\nWe went on a hike and I said, \"We really should make a show for kids that is so\n\n211\n00:09:00.770 --> 00:09:01.240\ngood\n\n212\n00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:03.640\nthey will ask for it instead of a screen.\"\n\n213\n00:09:03.640 --> 00:09:09.230\nA show that is so compelling, is so evocative that kids will seek it out\n\n214\n00:09:09.230 --> 00:09:10.840\ninstead of a video.\n\n215\n00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.330\nAnd that was the beginnings of what we created and what we launched five years\n\n216\n00:09:14.330 --> 00:09:14.920\nago, which\n\n217\n00:09:14.920 --> 00:09:17.400\nis a kids podcast called Wow in the World.\n\n218\n00:09:17.400 --> 00:09:22.010\nAnd the premise is every single episode David comes from a peer-reviewed\n\n219\n00:09:22.010 --> 00:09:23.280\nscientific journal\n\n220\n00:09:23.280 --> 00:09:24.280\narticle.\n\n221\n00:09:24.280 --> 00:09:29.920\nSo we take a peer-reviewed scientific study and we break it down into a journey\n\n222\n00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:30.520\nfor kids\n\n223\n00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:35.230\nso that core of the show is really hard science, but we might go into outer\n\n224\n00:09:35.230 --> 00:09:36.000\nspace.\n\n225\n00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:38.680\nWe might go in our time machine and go back in time.\n\n226\n00:09:38.680 --> 00:09:41.800\nWe might ride on our giant pigeon Reggie.\n\n227\n00:09:41.800 --> 00:09:45.720\nWe might go to a game show taping with our nosy neighbor Dennis.\n\n228\n00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:50.790\nWe have all these characters that we created in this show and very luckily when\n\n229\n00:09:50.790 --> 00:09:51.760\nwe launched\n\n230\n00:09:51.760 --> 00:09:54.200\nit five years ago, it became very popular.\n\n231\n00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:55.840\nAnd today we are very fortunate.\n\n232\n00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.160\nIt is the top kids podcast in English.\n\n233\n00:09:59.160 --> 00:10:02.510\nSo we built a whole company around it with a third co-founder named Meredith\n\n234\n00:10:02.510 --> 00:10:03.040\nwho is our\n\n235\n00:10:03.040 --> 00:10:05.440\nCEO, Meredith Ranser, Halpern Ranser.\n\n236\n00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:08.680\nAnd we have five podcasts.\n\n237\n00:10:08.680 --> 00:10:11.080\nWe have a partnership with Amazon Music and Wondery.\n\n238\n00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:14.800\nWe have a live show production that we just started live shows again in this\n\n239\n00:10:14.800 --> 00:10:15.280\nyear.\n\n240\n00:10:15.280 --> 00:10:19.080\nWe're in Raleigh Durham, Chicago, Denver, Portland, Nashville.\n\n241\n00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:21.160\nWe're going to several cities in 2022.\n\n242\n00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:22.760\nYou sell all those out, don't you?\n\n243\n00:10:22.760 --> 00:10:23.760\nSell them out.\n\n244\n00:10:23.760 --> 00:10:28.170\nIt's amazing because I make programs for adults and then I have this show and\n\n245\n00:10:28.170 --> 00:10:28.680\nwe have\n\n246\n00:10:28.680 --> 00:10:32.530\nkids who are three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve\n\n247\n00:10:32.530 --> 00:10:33.360\nwho only\n\n248\n00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.600\nknow me as a kid's sort of a silly character on the science show.\n\n249\n00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:40.480\nAnd it's amazing to be able to be part of it.\n\n250\n00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.880\nWe have an edtech platform that we're working on.\n\n251\n00:10:42.880 --> 00:10:47.680\nIt's crazy because we started a side project and today we have 22 employees.\n\n252\n00:10:47.680 --> 00:10:52.600\nAnd so we've built up this amazing company that is just growing like crazy.\n\n253\n00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:53.600\nThat's fantastic.\n\n254\n00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.280\nYou know, I recently wrote this book and just released it called Take Charge of\n\n255\n00:10:57.280 --> 00:10:57.600\nYou.\n\n256\n00:10:57.600 --> 00:10:58.600\nI just got it.\n\n257\n00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:02.870\nYou know, and then I talk about the importance of leaders taking a look at\n\n258\n00:11:02.870 --> 00:11:04.040\ntheir joy blockers\n\n259\n00:11:04.040 --> 00:11:05.600\nand their joy builders.\n\n260\n00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:10.080\nAnd when you think about the leadership role that you're in now, what are the\n\n261\n00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:10.880\njoy blockers\n\n262\n00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:14.310\nthat you have to deal with and what are your joy builders and how do you\n\n263\n00:11:14.310 --> 00:11:15.520\nreconcile it to\n\n264\n00:11:15.520 --> 00:11:17.840\nin terms of how you do your work?\n\n265\n00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:20.890\nYou know, I think about this a lot because as you know, David, leadership is a\n\n266\n00:11:20.890 --> 00:11:21.320\njourney\n\n267\n00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:22.680\nthat never ends.\n\n268\n00:11:22.680 --> 00:11:28.670\nAnd I'm 47 and I expect to be a better leader when I'm 57 and 67 and 77 because\n\n269\n00:11:28.670 --> 00:11:29.320\nI'm a better\n\n270\n00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:32.360\nleader than I was 10 years ago and I'm learning.\n\n271\n00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.680\nThere are things I'm not good at and things I wish I could be better at.\n\n272\n00:11:35.680 --> 00:11:37.000\nI'm not detail oriented.\n\n273\n00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:42.120\nI'm detail oriented about the quality of my shows, but I can't keep track of\n\n274\n00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:42.880\nspreadsheets\n\n275\n00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:44.960\nor tasks or things like that.\n\n276\n00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.720\nSo there are things that I cut out.\n\n277\n00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.720\nI don't do slack, for example, which drives my team crazy.\n\n278\n00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.240\nThey all communicate on slack.\n\n279\n00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:54.640\nBut I can't multitask easily.\n\n280\n00:11:54.640 --> 00:11:56.680\nMy brain isn't designed for that.\n\n281\n00:11:56.680 --> 00:11:58.600\nI'm not great with meetings.\n\n282\n00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:03.680\nMeetings for me are really challenging because I like to just do and move and\n\n283\n00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:04.760\nthere are types\n\n284\n00:12:04.760 --> 00:12:07.460\nof people who really like to think things out and do them carefully,\n\n285\n00:12:07.460 --> 00:12:08.320\nintentionally, and\n\n286\n00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:09.320\nthoughtfully.\n\n287\n00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:12.400\nAnd I think that is a great approach and my approach is the opposite.\n\n288\n00:12:12.400 --> 00:12:17.040\nI just go and then kind of apologize later or try and fix it as I'm building\n\n289\n00:12:17.040 --> 00:12:17.960\nthe plane,\n\n290\n00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:19.720\nyou know, pushing it off the cliff.\n\n291\n00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:24.400\nI think that one of my strengths as a leader is as a connector.\n\n292\n00:12:24.400 --> 00:12:29.280\nI like to connect people with other people who have greater expertise than I do\n\n293\n00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:29.680\nand who\n\n294\n00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:31.440\ncan solve problems.\n\n295\n00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:36.090\nAnd so I really encourage the people who work for me to come to me with\n\n296\n00:12:36.090 --> 00:12:37.400\nsolutions rather\n\n297\n00:12:37.400 --> 00:12:38.400\nthan problems.\n\n298\n00:12:38.400 --> 00:12:42.470\nThey can identify a problem, but I also what I say to my team is if there's a\n\n299\n00:12:42.470 --> 00:12:43.200\nproblem,\n\n300\n00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:44.320\nfigure it out and solve it.\n\n301\n00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:49.120\nAnd if you need to bring it to me, come to me with a problem with three\n\n302\n00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:50.480\nsuggested solutions\n\n303\n00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:54.220\nbecause that's really why I brought you in because I think you can solve the\n\n304\n00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:54.880\nproblem.\n\n305\n00:12:54.880 --> 00:12:58.100\nAnd ultimately, you know, my goal as a leader is to get to a place where I'm\n\n306\n00:12:58.100 --> 00:12:58.880\nlearning about\n\n307\n00:12:58.880 --> 00:13:01.840\nthings and decisions that were taken after the fact.\n\n308\n00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.830\nAnd by the way, David, I will say this and you know this because you came from\n\n309\n00:13:04.830 --> 00:13:05.320\nthe ad\n\n310\n00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.780\nspace and that's a creative space where you're really focused on like nuance\n\n311\n00:13:09.780 --> 00:13:10.560\nand words and\n\n312\n00:13:10.560 --> 00:13:11.560\nlanguage use.\n\n313\n00:13:11.560 --> 00:13:13.640\nAnd there's a lot of control involved with that.\n\n314\n00:13:13.640 --> 00:13:15.360\nAnd you're a creative person.\n\n315\n00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:19.290\nAnd with what I do, I have that control freak part of me, but I do fight it and\n\n316\n00:13:19.290 --> 00:13:20.080\nI've gotten\n\n317\n00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:21.080\na lot better.\n\n318\n00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.430\nAnd I and by the way, I would say anybody who's a control freak listening to\n\n319\n00:13:24.430 --> 00:13:25.320\nthis, know there\n\n320\n00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:29.990\nis hope for you because I am one of those people and I have fought it and\n\n321\n00:13:29.990 --> 00:13:30.640\ncontinue to\n\n322\n00:13:30.640 --> 00:13:31.640\nfight it.\n\n323\n00:13:31.640 --> 00:13:35.670\nAnd I have learned over time to seed control to other people and to accept that\n\n324\n00:13:35.670 --> 00:13:36.560\nthe decisions\n\n325\n00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:40.890\nothers make on behalf of the company or what we do will not always be the\n\n326\n00:13:40.890 --> 00:13:41.840\ndecision that\n\n327\n00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:47.640\nI chose, but ultimately it is a much better way to run an organization.\n\n328\n00:13:47.640 --> 00:13:51.530\nYou know, you have such high self awareness and that's really a transform\n\n329\n00:13:51.530 --> 00:13:52.520\national insight\n\n330\n00:13:52.520 --> 00:13:54.120\nabout control.\n\n331\n00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.640\nWhen did that control insight hit you?\n\n332\n00:13:56.640 --> 00:13:58.600\nWhen did you have that transformational insight?\n\n333\n00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.800\nBecause I can tell this is something that really kind of it hits you over the\n\n334\n00:14:01.800 --> 00:14:02.240\nhead.\n\n335\n00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:03.800\nI mean, I'm going through it now.\n\n336\n00:14:03.800 --> 00:14:06.410\nYou know, I think it's been an evolution over the last sort of three, four\n\n337\n00:14:06.410 --> 00:14:06.840\nyears.\n\n338\n00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:10.950\nAnd one example is when we started how I built this seven years ago, every\n\n339\n00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:11.960\nsingle word of\n\n340\n00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.600\nthat show I was editing.\n\n341\n00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:19.750\nI was going over scripts with a highlighter and I was giving very, very\n\n342\n00:14:19.750 --> 00:14:21.400\nspecific direction\n\n343\n00:14:21.400 --> 00:14:23.000\nto the producer.\n\n344\n00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:24.760\nAnd I did that for a year.\n\n345\n00:14:24.760 --> 00:14:25.800\nThat is not sustainable.\n\n346\n00:14:25.800 --> 00:14:30.650\nYou cannot scale up a business or a product if you maintain that level of\n\n347\n00:14:30.650 --> 00:14:31.560\ncontrol for\n\n348\n00:14:31.560 --> 00:14:32.560\ntoo long.\n\n349\n00:14:32.560 --> 00:14:36.200\nMaybe at the beginning, right, maybe for a short period of time.\n\n350\n00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:41.640\nIt was really hard for me to understand and to accept that I have to let it go.\n\n351\n00:14:41.640 --> 00:14:44.360\nAnd over time, I have let it go.\n\n352\n00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:48.480\nAnd my role in making the product, how I built this or wasn't from the top, my\n\n353\n00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:48.800\nrole\n\n354\n00:14:48.800 --> 00:14:53.040\nis to make sure that I am doing the absolute best job I can do, that I am\n\n355\n00:14:53.040 --> 00:14:55.120\ngiving that producer\n\n356\n00:14:55.120 --> 00:15:00.040\ngreat raw material with which they can then sculpt into something.\n\n357\n00:15:00.040 --> 00:15:03.270\nAnd I might not make the same choices that they make in editing the final\n\n358\n00:15:03.270 --> 00:15:03.920\nversion.\n\n359\n00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:08.320\nWe talk and I give them some suggestions, but ultimately it is their call.\n\n360\n00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:09.360\nAnd I listen to the show.\n\n361\n00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.520\nI don't actually listen to how I built this or wisdom from the top, usually for\n\n362\n00:15:13.520 --> 00:15:13.840\nabout\n\n363\n00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.520\ntwo or three months after the episode airs.\n\n364\n00:15:16.520 --> 00:15:21.840\nAnd the reason why I don't is because I'm susceptible to being impulsive.\n\n365\n00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.890\nAnd I know that if I heard it right when it came out and there was something I\n\n366\n00:15:24.890 --> 00:15:25.200\nwasn't\n\n367\n00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.760\nhappy with, I might call the producer and complain about it.\n\n368\n00:15:28.760 --> 00:15:30.040\nAnd I don't want to be that person.\n\n369\n00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:33.160\nI had to learn how to not be that person.\n\n370\n00:15:33.160 --> 00:15:35.280\nBecause that's actually counterproductive.\n\n371\n00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:40.280\nAnd the way I see my job is to find great people and to cheer them on.\n\n372\n00:15:40.280 --> 00:15:44.020\nAnd to cheer them on every way, not only because I want to retain them, but if\n\n373\n00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:44.360\nthey\n\n374\n00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:49.420\nleave, if they want to go somewhere else, to cheer them on so much that we\n\n375\n00:15:49.420 --> 00:15:50.160\ncontinue\n\n376\n00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:53.740\nand maintain our friendship and our collaboration or our exchanges, which\n\n377\n00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:55.320\nhappens all the time.\n\n378\n00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.040\nWith Tinkercast, we just lost somebody to another company.\n\n379\n00:15:58.040 --> 00:16:02.520\nAnd it's hard, but I'm cheering her on because she's going to learn so much.\n\n380\n00:16:02.520 --> 00:16:05.980\nAnd I said to her, learn, learn, learn, and then come back and bring that\n\n381\n00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:06.800\nknowledge back\n\n382\n00:16:06.800 --> 00:16:07.800\nto us.\n\n383\n00:16:07.800 --> 00:16:10.800\nAnd I love thinking about it that way.\n\n384\n00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:11.800\nBut you're still selling, man.\n\n385\n00:16:11.800 --> 00:16:14.280\nI'm going to get you back here sooner or later.\n\n386\n00:16:14.280 --> 00:16:17.040\nDo you enjoy managing people now as you're building these companies?\n\n387\n00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:19.760\nAnd it sounds like both your companies have huge runway.\n\n388\n00:16:19.760 --> 00:16:21.160\nYou're going to have to scale yourself.\n\n389\n00:16:21.160 --> 00:16:22.680\nYou're going to have to get more and more people.\n\n390\n00:16:22.680 --> 00:16:25.160\nDo you enjoy the process of managing people?\n\n391\n00:16:25.160 --> 00:16:27.800\nYou know, David, I'm learning how to do it better.\n\n392\n00:16:27.800 --> 00:16:34.080\nI think that you were a CEO and so you really were able to develop that skill.\n\n393\n00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.770\nIt's interesting because with how I built this, I interview founders and with\n\n394\n00:16:36.770 --> 00:16:37.200\nwisdom\n\n395\n00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:40.400\nfrom the top, I interview CEOs mainly.\n\n396\n00:16:40.400 --> 00:16:43.580\nAnd I know this is a bit controversial one about to say, but I've kind of\n\n397\n00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:44.200\nwalked away\n\n398\n00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.760\nfrom both those shows, concluding that it's harder to be a CEO than a founder.\n\n399\n00:16:48.760 --> 00:16:53.200\nI really believe that because when you're a founder, it's propulsive.\n\n400\n00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:54.200\nYou're in the garage.\n\n401\n00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:55.200\nYou're tinkering.\n\n402\n00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.720\nYou're trying to raise the money.\n\n403\n00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:57.720\nIt's nonstop.\n\n404\n00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.640\nYou're not really focused on culture building or management or HR.\n\n405\n00:17:00.640 --> 00:17:03.000\nYou're just moving, moving, moving.\n\n406\n00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.840\nWith management, it's very complex, right?\n\n407\n00:17:04.840 --> 00:17:06.720\nEspecially if you're taking over a large company.\n\n408\n00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:11.200\nI mean, I think what Sundar Pichai at Google does, and of course, Larry and\n\n409\n00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:11.880\nSergey are\n\n410\n00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.280\nbrilliant guys and what they did was very hard.\n\n411\n00:17:14.280 --> 00:17:17.880\nBut I would argue that what he does now is harder than the startup phase\n\n412\n00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:18.600\nbecause he's\n\n413\n00:17:18.600 --> 00:17:22.280\nmanaging a massive multinational company.\n\n414\n00:17:22.280 --> 00:17:27.010\nWith respect to what I do on a very small scale, I'm still in the phase of\n\n415\n00:17:27.010 --> 00:17:27.680\ntrying to\n\n416\n00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:31.040\nlearn how to be a strong manager.\n\n417\n00:17:31.040 --> 00:17:36.440\nMy fault and I am very aware of this is I'm not good with confrontation, David.\n\n418\n00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:37.840\nIt's a weakness of mine.\n\n419\n00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:40.920\nI really prefer concordance.\n\n420\n00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:46.230\nI like to be liked, which I think is also a fault that I've been trying to work\n\n421\n00:17:46.230 --> 00:17:46.760\non knowing\n\n422\n00:17:46.760 --> 00:17:50.200\nthat sometimes people won't like you or they won't like your decision.\n\n423\n00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:51.880\nSo I'm working on it.\n\n424\n00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:53.920\nWith TinkerCast, I don't manage the company.\n\n425\n00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.600\nWe have an incredible CEO.\n\n426\n00:17:55.600 --> 00:17:59.080\nBut I'm very good at mentoring people and connecting people, which is what I do\n\n427\n00:17:59.080 --> 00:17:59.640\nthere.\n\n428\n00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.840\nAnd with built-up productions, I'm the CEO and I oversee it, but we have an\n\n429\n00:18:03.840 --> 00:18:04.720\noperational\n\n430\n00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:06.240\nmanager and a managing producer.\n\n431\n00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:11.490\nAnd they are really focused on people management and staff management and\n\n432\n00:18:11.490 --> 00:18:12.600\nmaking sure that\n\n433\n00:18:12.600 --> 00:18:14.440\npeople feel fulfilled.\n\n434\n00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:18.560\nWhat I try to do as much as possible is focus on morale.\n\n435\n00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:21.160\nAnd I know you talked about this, which is the easiest thing you could do is in\n\n436\n00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:21.560\nthe best\n\n437\n00:18:21.560 --> 00:18:23.840\nthing you could do is to thank people and recognize people.\n\n438\n00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:25.320\nAnd I've learned that from you.\n\n439\n00:18:25.320 --> 00:18:30.800\nWhat is so important is to take the time to recognize people and to recognize\n\n440\n00:18:30.800 --> 00:18:31.400\nwhat they've\n\n441\n00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:33.760\ndone, because when people are recognized, they feel valued.\n\n442\n00:18:33.760 --> 00:18:34.760\nWe all know that.\n\n443\n00:18:34.760 --> 00:18:35.760\nAbsolutely.\n\n444\n00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:40.210\nAnd it's interesting you talk about conflict because productive conflict is an\n\n445\n00:18:40.210 --> 00:18:40.880\nessential\n\n446\n00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:45.360\ntrait for a leader to get better at and being able to sniff out the conflict.\n\n447\n00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:48.840\nYou've got to see it in your organization and bring it it forward.\n\n448\n00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:52.860\nI think one of the things that you'll learn as you go through this process more\n\n449\n00:18:52.860 --> 00:18:53.400\nand more\n\n450\n00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:57.880\nis that it's part of getting people to like you because they really need you to\n\n451\n00:18:57.880 --> 00:18:58.360\ndo it.\n\n452\n00:18:58.360 --> 00:19:00.920\nBecause if you don't do it, nobody else will.\n\n453\n00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:01.920\nYeah.\n\n454\n00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.630\nI mean, it's interesting because with Tinkercast, it's a partnership with two\n\n455\n00:19:05.630 --> 00:19:06.560\npartners and both\n\n456\n00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:09.320\nbrilliant and both bring very different strengths.\n\n457\n00:19:09.320 --> 00:19:10.840\nAll three of us bring different strengths.\n\n458\n00:19:10.840 --> 00:19:13.680\nAnd because we're equal co-founders, there is conflict.\n\n459\n00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.640\nAnd so that happens among the three of us.\n\n460\n00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:20.000\nAnd that I think is healthy and important and productive.\n\n461\n00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.120\nWhen it comes to challenging conflict with team members is I try to be very\n\n462\n00:19:24.120 --> 00:19:24.920\nmindful of\n\n463\n00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.120\nthe role I have in my companies.\n\n464\n00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:32.340\nAnd it took me a while to understand that people see me as a powerful person,\n\n465\n00:19:32.340 --> 00:19:32.680\neven if\n\n466\n00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:36.040\nmy self-perceptions like me, powerful, I'm your pal.\n\n467\n00:19:36.040 --> 00:19:41.390\nBut when you're a leader, you are perceived to be powerful and sometimes it can\n\n468\n00:19:41.390 --> 00:19:42.640\nbe intimidating\n\n469\n00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:43.880\nto people.\n\n470\n00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:47.440\nAnd it took me a while to understand that I can be intimidating to people.\n\n471\n00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.440\nIt was kind of a shock to learn that because I didn't know that.\n\n472\n00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:56.320\nI never think of myself that way or stand offish or as unapproachable sometimes\n\n473\n00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:56.400\n.\n\n474\n00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.840\nAnd so that's something I've also worked on.\n\n475\n00:19:58.840 --> 00:20:02.930\nAnd one of the ways I work on it is by trying to be really generous,\n\n476\n00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:04.800\nparticularly with younger\n\n477\n00:20:04.800 --> 00:20:09.870\npeople who are starting out and less experienced people because I want them to\n\n478\n00:20:09.870 --> 00:20:11.160\nfeel comfortable\n\n479\n00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:12.440\nchallenging me too.\n\n480\n00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:17.560\nAnd so when I talk about conflict, it's more like conflict around challenging\n\n481\n00:20:17.560 --> 00:20:18.440\nemployees,\n\n482\n00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:26.800\nwhich thankfully I haven't had too much of, but that's where I'm weaker as a\n\n483\n00:20:26.800 --> 00:20:28.240\nmanager.\n\n484\n00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.470\nI've distilled all I've learned about leadership into three key fundamentals\n\n485\n00:20:32.470 --> 00:20:33.440\nyou need to learn\n\n486\n00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.720\nif you want to be a great leader and effect change in your organization.\n\n487\n00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:42.120\nI teach these three skills in a free leadership training that you can get\n\n488\n00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:43.160\naccess to today\n\n489\n00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.360\nat howleaderslead.com/series.\n\n490\n00:20:46.360 --> 00:20:50.460\nGet access to it today and learn what I believe to be the three most important\n\n491\n00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:51.120\nthings you\n\n492\n00:20:51.120 --> 00:20:56.040\ncan do to develop as a leader and make the world a better place.\n\n493\n00:20:56.040 --> 00:21:03.440\nHowleaderslead.com/series.\n\n494\n00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:08.750\nYou are an entrepreneur now and you talk about entrepreneurship being a mindset\n\n495\n00:21:08.750 --> 00:21:08.880\n.\n\n496\n00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:10.320\nWhat do you mean by that guy?\n\n497\n00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:12.560\nI just had a conversation with Mark Cuban.\n\n498\n00:21:12.560 --> 00:21:18.030\nAnd Mark Cuban is one of the most, like the guy came out of diapers to be a, he\n\n499\n00:21:18.030 --> 00:21:18.680\nwas born\n\n500\n00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:19.680\nto be an entrepreneur.\n\n501\n00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:23.680\nHe was reading a book called How to Retire in age 35 when he was in college.\n\n502\n00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:28.720\nLike with professional athletes or CEOs, there is a talent factor.\n\n503\n00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.200\nThere are some people who are just naturally more talented and gifted.\n\n504\n00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:36.750\nBut I think that in my experience with entrepreneurs and founders, most of them\n\n505\n00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:37.920\nlearn those skills.\n\n506\n00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:39.880\nMost of them develop those skills over time.\n\n507\n00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:44.080\nIn fact, many of them aren't necessarily charismatic.\n\n508\n00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:47.080\nThere's a guy that I just talked to recently called Frank Yang.\n\n509\n00:21:47.080 --> 00:21:51.970\nAnd Frank Yang is one of the most self-effacing, quiet, almost shy, introverted\n\n510\n00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:52.720\npeople you\n\n511\n00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.720\nwill ever meet.\n\n512\n00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:58.680\nAnd yet Frank built on his own an incredible company called Simplehuman.\n\n513\n00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:00.620\nMakes trash cans, kitchen products.\n\n514\n00:22:00.620 --> 00:22:05.460\nOf 100 million millions of dollars a year, he owns the company entirely.\n\n515\n00:22:05.460 --> 00:22:10.720\nAnd he really built this company from an idea in his head to improve the trash\n\n516\n00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:11.540\ncan to make\n\n517\n00:22:11.540 --> 00:22:12.720\nbetter design products.\n\n518\n00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:18.760\nAnd so I think becoming an entrepreneur can very much be a learned skill.\n\n519\n00:22:18.760 --> 00:22:21.540\nAnd oftentimes David people say, well, what do I need to know to be an\n\n520\n00:22:21.540 --> 00:22:22.320\nentrepreneur?\n\n521\n00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:23.320\nWhat should I do?\n\n522\n00:22:23.320 --> 00:22:24.320\nAnd of course, there's some obvious answers.\n\n523\n00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:25.760\nGo work in the industry for a while.\n\n524\n00:22:25.760 --> 00:22:27.520\nYou want to start a fast food chicken place.\n\n525\n00:22:27.520 --> 00:22:30.600\nGo work at KFC for a few years and then go and start your own.\n\n526\n00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:33.220\nBut there's another factor which I think is even more important.\n\n527\n00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:37.140\nAnd it is learn how to accept no.\n\n528\n00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:39.980\nLearn how to accept no, but keep moving forward.\n\n529\n00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:42.980\nLearn how to deal with rejection, but keep moving forward.\n\n530\n00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:45.700\nSo expose yourself to rejection.\n\n531\n00:22:45.700 --> 00:22:48.720\nAnd one of the ways that many of the entrepreneurs I've interviewed have\n\n532\n00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.620\nexposed themselves to\n\n533\n00:22:49.620 --> 00:22:55.140\nrejection is by being salespeople, cold calling, going door to door and hearing\n\n534\n00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:56.180\nno or not\n\n535\n00:22:56.180 --> 00:23:01.690\ninterested or thank you, but no, and still having to keep going and keep moving\n\n536\n00:23:01.690 --> 00:23:02.800\nforward.\n\n537\n00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:05.580\nBecause when you're starting a business, you're going to hear a lot of no.\n\n538\n00:23:05.580 --> 00:23:06.580\nYou're going to hear a lot of no's.\n\n539\n00:23:06.580 --> 00:23:08.910\nYou're going to hear a lot of people who think your idea is stupid or who don't\n\n540\n00:23:08.910 --> 00:23:10.200\nwant to invest.\n\n541\n00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.820\nAnd you have to be able to withstand that.\n\n542\n00:23:12.820 --> 00:23:16.700\nAnd I believe that is a learned skill for most of us.\n\n543\n00:23:16.700 --> 00:23:17.700\nI agree.\n\n544\n00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:22.280\nAnd you talk about the importance of being a kind leader.\n\n545\n00:23:22.280 --> 00:23:23.540\nWho gave you that insight?\n\n546\n00:23:23.540 --> 00:23:25.100\nAnd when did that really hit you?\n\n547\n00:23:25.100 --> 00:23:28.820\nI could say you, David, and many other founders and CEOs that I've talked to.\n\n548\n00:23:28.820 --> 00:23:31.540\nI mean, Howard Schultz is a great example of that.\n\n549\n00:23:31.540 --> 00:23:33.900\nHoward Schultz is a kind leader.\n\n550\n00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:37.140\nHe really prioritizes the treatment of his employees.\n\n551\n00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:40.510\nNow, of course, there are all kinds of issues and some people might challenge\n\n552\n00:23:40.510 --> 00:23:41.100\nthat around\n\n553\n00:23:41.100 --> 00:23:44.240\ntheir Starbucks employees who are unionizing and there have been reports about\n\n554\n00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:44.740\nStarbucks\n\n555\n00:23:44.740 --> 00:23:45.740\nopposing it.\n\n556\n00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:49.440\nBut I would say that Howard Schultz, in general, his operating principle has\n\n557\n00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:50.900\nbeen to really\n\n558\n00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:52.660\ntake care of the people who work for the company.\n\n559\n00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:55.930\nI mean, they have in general some of the lowest turnover rates in the QSR\n\n560\n00:23:55.930 --> 00:23:56.580\nindustry.\n\n561\n00:23:56.580 --> 00:24:01.490\nThey've long offered a higher pay and benefits and opportunities to get a\n\n562\n00:24:01.490 --> 00:24:02.980\nbachelor's degree.\n\n563\n00:24:02.980 --> 00:24:06.700\nAnd he was doing that before it became more standard.\n\n564\n00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:11.020\nToday, I think there's an expectation that leaders need to take care of their\n\n565\n00:24:11.020 --> 00:24:12.780\npeople first.\n\n566\n00:24:12.780 --> 00:24:15.970\nWhen you were kind of rising up the ranks in corporate America, the guy that\n\n567\n00:24:15.970 --> 00:24:16.420\nwas sort\n\n568\n00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:20.940\nof the alpha model of leadership was Jack Welch.\n\n569\n00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:25.100\nI don't think Jack Welch would be considered to be an acceptable CEO today.\n\n570\n00:24:25.100 --> 00:24:30.300\nI think his brand and his mode of operating, I don't think he would last today.\n\n571\n00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:31.860\nI think he'd be thrown out.\n\n572\n00:24:31.860 --> 00:24:33.420\nYou know what I mean?\n\n573\n00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:38.180\nAnd even though he was a brilliant CEO, no question about it, but his style, it\n\n574\n00:24:38.180 --> 00:24:39.220\n's changed.\n\n575\n00:24:39.220 --> 00:24:44.170\nI think there's an expectation for the better that leaders need to model\n\n576\n00:24:44.170 --> 00:24:45.060\nkindness as much\n\n577\n00:24:45.060 --> 00:24:46.060\nas possible.\n\n578\n00:24:46.060 --> 00:24:50.380\nI think your point about Jack is very interesting because I agree with you.\n\n579\n00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:55.420\nI think his style is outdated my way, the highway, the boss mentality.\n\n580\n00:24:55.420 --> 00:24:56.420\nThat's yesterday's newspaper.\n\n581\n00:24:56.420 --> 00:25:00.610\nI think the thing about Jack and I knew him and knew him pretty well is that he\n\n582\n00:25:00.610 --> 00:25:01.020\nwas so\n\n583\n00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:02.060\nsmart.\n\n584\n00:25:02.060 --> 00:25:05.270\nIf he'd be coming up in this kind of environment today, he'd be probably the\n\n585\n00:25:05.270 --> 00:25:05.940\nkindest guy in\n\n586\n00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:09.260\nthe world because he'd figure out that's what really drives it.\n\n587\n00:25:09.260 --> 00:25:12.820\nYou know, most people know you as the host of how I built this.\n\n588\n00:25:12.820 --> 00:25:15.940\nAnd you wrote a phenomenal book that everybody should read.\n\n589\n00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:20.020\nTell us where you really, how you birth this idea of how I built this.\n\n590\n00:25:20.020 --> 00:25:23.180\nI understand it was from classwork you did at Harvard.\n\n591\n00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:28.370\nBack in 2008, I had a sabbatical year, which might seem weird because I was\n\n592\n00:25:28.370 --> 00:25:29.420\nonly 32, but\n\n593\n00:25:29.420 --> 00:25:32.540\nI started out as a reporter when I was 22.\n\n594\n00:25:32.540 --> 00:25:36.020\nSo by that point, I had 10 years of experience and I'd been overseas.\n\n595\n00:25:36.020 --> 00:25:37.580\nI covered the Iraq war.\n\n596\n00:25:37.580 --> 00:25:39.820\nI covered the Afghan war.\n\n597\n00:25:39.820 --> 00:25:42.660\nI covered Kosovo and the West Bank and Gaza.\n\n598\n00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:46.020\nI've been all over the place as a reporter.\n\n599\n00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:50.040\nAnd so I got this fellowship at Harvard for journalists and it's called the Ne\n\n600\n00:25:50.040 --> 00:25:51.060\niman Fellowship.\n\n601\n00:25:51.060 --> 00:25:52.580\nAnd you could take any class you want.\n\n602\n00:25:52.580 --> 00:25:54.940\nAnd I had never taken a business class in my life.\n\n603\n00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:59.260\nI studied history and politics and diplomacy and international relations.\n\n604\n00:25:59.260 --> 00:26:00.260\nThat was my wheelhouse.\n\n605\n00:26:00.260 --> 00:26:01.260\nThat's what I did.\n\n606\n00:26:01.260 --> 00:26:04.480\nSo I took a class at Harvard Business School and it was the first time I ever\n\n607\n00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:05.260\ntook a business\n\n608\n00:26:05.260 --> 00:26:08.820\nschool class and, you know, with all these impressive young people.\n\n609\n00:26:08.820 --> 00:26:12.820\nAnd I was stunned at the way they taught business school.\n\n610\n00:26:12.820 --> 00:26:14.660\nThe first day they gave us a case study.\n\n611\n00:26:14.660 --> 00:26:18.620\nI didn't know any about case studies and it was part A and we had to read it\n\n612\n00:26:18.620 --> 00:26:19.260\nand then\n\n613\n00:26:19.260 --> 00:26:22.900\ncome back three days later for part B and I devoured this.\n\n614\n00:26:22.900 --> 00:26:24.540\nIt was actually the story of Howard Schultz.\n\n615\n00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:27.020\nIt was the first one I ever read.\n\n616\n00:26:27.020 --> 00:26:29.820\nAnd it read like a short story.\n\n617\n00:26:29.820 --> 00:26:31.700\nIt was so compelling.\n\n618\n00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:36.600\nThe only problem with it was that you had to pay $100,000 a year and be a\n\n619\n00:26:36.600 --> 00:26:37.260\nstudent at\n\n620\n00:26:37.260 --> 00:26:39.220\nHarvard Business School to have access to it.\n\n621\n00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:43.770\nAnd I thought, what if I could do this exact same thing, but even better on the\n\n622\n00:26:43.770 --> 00:26:44.340\nradio,\n\n623\n00:26:44.340 --> 00:26:46.060\nor a podcast or whatever.\n\n624\n00:26:46.060 --> 00:26:50.620\nI wasn't thinking podcast back then in 2008, but on the radio and make it free.\n\n625\n00:26:50.620 --> 00:26:53.180\nAnd that was really the seed, that planted the seed in my mind.\n\n626\n00:26:53.180 --> 00:26:58.090\nI didn't start the show until 2016, but it was this idea that you could\n\n627\n00:26:58.090 --> 00:26:59.380\nessentially take\n\n628\n00:26:59.380 --> 00:27:05.070\na business school case study to that format and you could offer it to people\n\n629\n00:27:05.070 --> 00:27:05.540\nfor free\n\n630\n00:27:05.540 --> 00:27:08.820\nin audio form with the person.\n\n631\n00:27:08.820 --> 00:27:11.140\nAnd that's really how it began.\n\n632\n00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:14.400\nAnd that was the kind of the mission of the show and thankfully it remains\n\n633\n00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:14.900\ntoday.\n\n634\n00:27:14.900 --> 00:27:17.300\nAgain, here we're talking about a noble cause.\n\n635\n00:27:17.300 --> 00:27:20.630\nYou wanted to bring people these leaders that they could never hear about for\n\n636\n00:27:20.630 --> 00:27:20.980\nfree, which\n\n637\n00:27:20.980 --> 00:27:22.500\nis a pretty nice thing to do.\n\n638\n00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:27.140\nBut you said that you really didn't launch it till 2016.\n\n639\n00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:31.460\nWhat gave you the confidence to really pursue the idea and do something with it\n\n640\n00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:31.580\n?\n\n641\n00:27:31.580 --> 00:27:34.100\nMy career was really a slow burn.\n\n642\n00:27:34.100 --> 00:27:38.700\nI mean, I was very, very fortunate early in my career to be very successful.\n\n643\n00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:42.460\nI was an overseas correspondent for National Public Radio when I was 25.\n\n644\n00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:44.540\nI was based in Berlin.\n\n645\n00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:47.760\nAnd I was a war reporter by the age of 26 and all these things that I didn't\n\n646\n00:27:47.760 --> 00:27:48.580\nanticipate.\n\n647\n00:27:48.580 --> 00:27:50.460\nI think many people will share this.\n\n648\n00:27:50.460 --> 00:27:56.580\nI am a confident person today at 47, but I still have doubts about many of my\n\n649\n00:27:56.580 --> 00:27:57.900\nabilities.\n\n650\n00:27:57.900 --> 00:28:02.470\nAnd I still sort of second guess, you know, ways I do interviews or some of the\n\n651\n00:28:02.470 --> 00:28:03.020\nwriting\n\n652\n00:28:03.020 --> 00:28:04.020\nI do.\n\n653\n00:28:04.020 --> 00:28:06.660\nBut of course now I've been doing it for so long, I have more confidence.\n\n654\n00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:10.180\nEarly in my career, I really did have a major imposter syndrome.\n\n655\n00:28:10.180 --> 00:28:11.180\nYou know, I was 25.\n\n656\n00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:12.180\nI was overseas.\n\n657\n00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:13.180\nI was a reporter.\n\n658\n00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:16.960\nAnd in my heart, I felt in my mind, I felt like I had duped my editors that I\n\n659\n00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:17.740\nhad somehow\n\n660\n00:28:17.740 --> 00:28:20.180\nconvinced them that I was capable of doing this work.\n\n661\n00:28:20.180 --> 00:28:22.460\nI was really nervous.\n\n662\n00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:25.940\nBut I think that nervous energy really propelled a strong work ethic.\n\n663\n00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:29.360\nI worked and outworked everybody because I was so scared that they would find\n\n664\n00:28:29.360 --> 00:28:29.740\nout that\n\n665\n00:28:29.740 --> 00:28:34.490\nI was a fraud, you know, that I had to file more stories and be available to\n\n666\n00:28:34.490 --> 00:28:35.460\ntravel everywhere\n\n667\n00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:37.540\nI could travel to.\n\n668\n00:28:37.540 --> 00:28:41.220\nAnd I think similarly with how I built this, I needed to feel confident that I\n\n669\n00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:41.700\ncould do\n\n670\n00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:42.700\nit.\n\n671\n00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:46.060\nAnd what gave me the confidence was a show that I created a few years before\n\n672\n00:28:46.060 --> 00:28:46.660\ncalled the Ted\n\n673\n00:28:46.660 --> 00:28:47.660\nRadio Hour.\n\n674\n00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:51.050\nAnd by the time I started how I built this, I had already been a host of all\n\n675\n00:28:51.050 --> 00:28:52.000\nthings considered\n\n676\n00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.980\non NPR for a few years.\n\n677\n00:28:53.980 --> 00:28:57.460\nAnd then I started a show called Ted Radio Hour.\n\n678\n00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:01.540\nAnd that show was in partnership with Ted, the Ted Talks people.\n\n679\n00:29:01.540 --> 00:29:04.540\nThat show became really successful.\n\n680\n00:29:04.540 --> 00:29:10.120\nAnd I began to believe that maybe I could start a new show around an entirely\n\n681\n00:29:10.120 --> 00:29:11.020\ndifferent\n\n682\n00:29:11.020 --> 00:29:13.580\nconcept that could also be successful.\n\n683\n00:29:13.580 --> 00:29:18.640\nSo I needed to get to a place in my head where I thought, okay, I'm ready to do\n\n684\n00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:19.220\nthis.\n\n685\n00:29:19.220 --> 00:29:24.180\nAnd if it doesn't work, it's okay because I don't have anything to prove.\n\n686\n00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:26.620\nI believe in this thing so much.\n\n687\n00:29:26.620 --> 00:29:28.860\nAnd I'm so passionate about it that I want to take the leap.\n\n688\n00:29:28.860 --> 00:29:32.020\nSo, you know, around that time, I had already started my own business.\n\n689\n00:29:32.020 --> 00:29:34.820\nI was no longer an employee of NPR.\n\n690\n00:29:34.820 --> 00:29:35.820\nAnd so that was really it.\n\n691\n00:29:35.820 --> 00:29:39.660\nI needed that psychological kind of feeling of being good enough.\n\n692\n00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:40.660\nAnd it took me a while.\n\n693\n00:29:40.660 --> 00:29:45.050\nI think it takes us all a while, you know, and I understand that having your\n\n694\n00:29:45.050 --> 00:29:45.780\nfirst child\n\n695\n00:29:45.780 --> 00:29:49.660\nreally had a major impact on how you thought about yourself and your career.\n\n696\n00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:51.260\nCan you tell us about that?\n\n697\n00:29:51.260 --> 00:29:55.600\nIn some ways, it was just the most liberating thing that I ever experienced in\n\n698\n00:29:55.600 --> 00:29:56.220\nmy life.\n\n699\n00:29:56.220 --> 00:30:00.540\nAnd I know you're very close with your daughter and I've got two kids, two boys\n\n700\n00:30:00.540 --> 00:30:00.620\n.\n\n701\n00:30:00.620 --> 00:30:04.530\nAnd when Henry, my oldest son was born, it was weird because all of a sudden,\n\n702\n00:30:04.530 --> 00:30:04.740\nDavid,\n\n703\n00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:09.740\nall that ambition that was just driving me, you know, to work and to travel and\n\n704\n00:30:09.740 --> 00:30:10.740\nto constantly\n\n705\n00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:15.820\ntry and achieve some, you know, unattainable goal, it just evaporated.\n\n706\n00:30:15.820 --> 00:30:21.320\nIt was almost as if my career and what I thought I needed to do to get the next\n\n707\n00:30:21.320 --> 00:30:22.700\nbrass ring,\n\n708\n00:30:22.700 --> 00:30:28.140\nit didn't matter anymore because I was looking at this child and I understood\n\n709\n00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:28.900\nin my mind\n\n710\n00:30:28.900 --> 00:30:34.020\nthat I had one job to do in life and it was to protect this child and to help\n\n711\n00:30:34.020 --> 00:30:35.060\ntransition\n\n712\n00:30:35.060 --> 00:30:37.820\nthis child into adulthood so they could be independent.\n\n713\n00:30:37.820 --> 00:30:38.820\nAnd that was it.\n\n714\n00:30:38.820 --> 00:30:39.820\nThat was my only role.\n\n715\n00:30:39.820 --> 00:30:41.100\nThis was like a biological role.\n\n716\n00:30:41.100 --> 00:30:43.060\nYou know, I just, that was it.\n\n717\n00:30:43.060 --> 00:30:48.120\nHumans have been doing this for 300,000 years and I was just part of that chain\n\n718\n00:30:48.120 --> 00:30:48.260\n.\n\n719\n00:30:48.260 --> 00:30:51.220\nWhat's interesting is that it didn't change my ambition.\n\n720\n00:30:51.220 --> 00:30:53.740\nIt changed the way I thought about ambition.\n\n721\n00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:58.640\nSo chasing the brass ring became less important, but paradoxically, I became\n\n722\n00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:00.060\nmuch more successful\n\n723\n00:31:00.060 --> 00:31:02.980\nwhen I stopped worrying about chasing the brass ring.\n\n724\n00:31:02.980 --> 00:31:07.630\nAnd that is because I became a father and my focus, the focus of my attention\n\n725\n00:31:07.630 --> 00:31:08.220\nand what\n\n726\n00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:10.660\nbecame important to me was so clear.\n\n727\n00:31:10.660 --> 00:31:11.660\nThat's cool.\n\n728\n00:31:11.660 --> 00:31:15.060\nYou know, you always seem to pull the best out of your guests.\n\n729\n00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:18.620\nYou know, it's like you bond with them almost immediately.\n\n730\n00:31:18.620 --> 00:31:21.220\nYou create this relationship.\n\n731\n00:31:21.220 --> 00:31:24.380\nWhat do you do to make people feel comfortable with you?\n\n732\n00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:26.730\nI mean, there are a couple of things that I do and then there are a couple of\n\n733\n00:31:26.730 --> 00:31:27.060\nthings\n\n734\n00:31:27.060 --> 00:31:28.740\nthat I think just happened.\n\n735\n00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:32.930\nSo the first thing I do is I spend a lot of time learning about every person I\n\n736\n00:31:32.930 --> 00:31:33.780\ninterview,\n\n737\n00:31:33.780 --> 00:31:37.340\nseven to 10 hours of reading for every guest.\n\n738\n00:31:37.340 --> 00:31:39.260\nAnd I'm doing a lot of interviews every year.\n\n739\n00:31:39.260 --> 00:31:42.100\nSo I'm doing a lot of reading.\n\n740\n00:31:42.100 --> 00:31:47.480\nWhat that signals to a guest is I have respect for you and your life that I've\n\n741\n00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:48.540\nreally taken\n\n742\n00:31:48.540 --> 00:31:51.660\nthe time to learn about your life because I think it's interesting.\n\n743\n00:31:51.660 --> 00:31:55.180\nAnd now I want to go even deeper and probe deeper and I want to explore your\n\n744\n00:31:55.180 --> 00:31:55.740\nlife with\n\n745\n00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:57.140\nyou.\n\n746\n00:31:57.140 --> 00:32:03.410\nAnd I want to trigger memories that might be buried, not traumatic memories,\n\n747\n00:32:03.410 --> 00:32:04.460\nany details\n\n748\n00:32:04.460 --> 00:32:08.610\nof your life that might be buried that you may have forgotten about because I\n\n749\n00:32:08.610 --> 00:32:09.140\nalready\n\n750\n00:32:09.140 --> 00:32:14.280\nhave the foundation from which to work, which is I know a lot about you because\n\n751\n00:32:14.280 --> 00:32:14.980\nI've read\n\n752\n00:32:14.980 --> 00:32:15.980\nabout you.\n\n753\n00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:20.060\nWhen people come to the interview and they can sense through my questions that\n\n754\n00:32:20.060 --> 00:32:20.980\nI've taken\n\n755\n00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:25.220\na lot of time to learn about them, I think that it triggers something in their\n\n756\n00:32:25.220 --> 00:32:25.660\nbrain\n\n757\n00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:29.340\nthat basically says, you know what, I'm going to talk more or I'm going to give\n\n758\n00:32:29.340 --> 00:32:29.580\nmore of\n\n759\n00:32:29.580 --> 00:32:34.680\nmyself because clearly this person is, you know, has taken the time to find out\n\n760\n00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:35.140\nabout\n\n761\n00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:36.140\nme.\n\n762\n00:32:36.140 --> 00:32:39.440\nThe other thing, and this is something that you're doing right now, right, is\n\n763\n00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:39.540\nthere are\n\n764\n00:32:39.540 --> 00:32:44.570\nvery few moments in our daily lives now where we can be totally present for an\n\n765\n00:32:44.570 --> 00:32:45.100\nhour or\n\n766\n00:32:45.100 --> 00:32:46.100\ntwo, right?\n\n767\n00:32:46.100 --> 00:32:50.210\nBecause we're constantly distracted with social media and with phones and just\n\n768\n00:32:50.210 --> 00:32:51.980\nall the time.\n\n769\n00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:57.950\nAnd here is a moment where it's you and me, me and the guest, or you and me\n\n770\n00:32:57.950 --> 00:32:58.340\nhere.\n\n771\n00:32:58.340 --> 00:33:01.380\nAnd I'm not looking over your shoulder to see what other guests is at the party\n\n772\n00:33:01.380 --> 00:33:01.700\nor if\n\n773\n00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:04.980\nthere's somebody more important or none of that exists.\n\n774\n00:33:04.980 --> 00:33:08.660\nIt's just you and me in this tunnel.\n\n775\n00:33:08.660 --> 00:33:11.740\nAnd I am fully present.\n\n776\n00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:16.480\nAnd I think that is also it creates a natural connection because the most\n\n777\n00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:17.540\nvaluable thing\n\n778\n00:33:17.540 --> 00:33:20.220\nthat you can give anybody is your time.\n\n779\n00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:21.220\nAnd that's what happens.\n\n780\n00:33:21.220 --> 00:33:23.420\nIt's not that I have some magical powers.\n\n781\n00:33:23.420 --> 00:33:27.220\nI'm good at what I do, but not because I'm a gifted interviewer.\n\n782\n00:33:27.220 --> 00:33:29.220\nIt's because I've been doing this for 25 years.\n\n783\n00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:32.660\nI would hope I would be good at it after 25 years.\n\n784\n00:33:32.660 --> 00:33:35.020\nWhat it is is it's just being there.\n\n785\n00:33:35.020 --> 00:33:39.300\nIt's just being present and listening actively to what somebody's saying.\n\n786\n00:33:39.300 --> 00:33:43.450\nI think that that's what creates the environment for any kind of rich\n\n787\n00:33:43.450 --> 00:33:45.100\nconversation, which of\n\n788\n00:33:45.100 --> 00:33:47.220\ncourse we hope to have in every episode.\n\n789\n00:33:47.220 --> 00:33:52.670\nOne thing that leaders are being told today and people are writing about it is\n\n790\n00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:53.860\nthe importance\n\n791\n00:33:53.860 --> 00:33:56.380\nof being a storyteller.\n\n792\n00:33:56.380 --> 00:34:00.460\nYou've really got to tell stories to move people and inspire people.\n\n793\n00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:05.540\nAnd you are probably the ultimate storyteller that I've ever been in my life.\n\n794\n00:34:05.540 --> 00:34:09.860\nWhat advice can you give to us mere mortals on how to tell a story?\n\n795\n00:34:09.860 --> 00:34:12.580\nAnd I love that you say mere mortals because it implies that I have some\n\n796\n00:34:12.580 --> 00:34:13.260\nsuperpower.\n\n797\n00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:14.460\nAnd I don't.\n\n798\n00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:17.600\nWhat I try to do with how I built this is to dispel the idea that the founders\n\n799\n00:34:17.600 --> 00:34:17.940\non the\n\n800\n00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:20.420\nshow are superheroes or even wisdom from the top.\n\n801\n00:34:20.420 --> 00:34:26.270\nI want people to understand that everybody starts from a basic place and has to\n\n802\n00:34:26.270 --> 00:34:26.700\nface\n\n803\n00:34:26.700 --> 00:34:30.890\ncertain challenges and that what they do today may seem like it's supernatural\n\n804\n00:34:30.890 --> 00:34:31.540\npower,\n\n805\n00:34:31.540 --> 00:34:33.380\nbut it's something that they developed over time.\n\n806\n00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:36.150\nAnd it's important that people understand that because I want people to think\n\n807\n00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:36.580\nthat they\n\n808\n00:34:36.580 --> 00:34:38.060\ncan do that too.\n\n809\n00:34:38.060 --> 00:34:40.820\nI really want people to be inspired by that.\n\n810\n00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:45.860\nAnd so in my case, it's not that I have this supernatural gift of storytelling.\n\n811\n00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:49.060\nIt's that I've been practicing it for a long time.\n\n812\n00:34:49.060 --> 00:34:54.740\nI think that what I'm very good at is getting other people to be storytellers.\n\n813\n00:34:54.740 --> 00:34:58.660\nSo it's really about drawing your story out.\n\n814\n00:34:58.660 --> 00:35:03.380\nAnd together, we find this natural rhythm of telling the story.\n\n815\n00:35:03.380 --> 00:35:06.020\nBut a lot of people will say, I just don't have a story.\n\n816\n00:35:06.020 --> 00:35:09.620\nI've met people who say, I don't have a story or I don't have any dramatic\n\n817\n00:35:09.620 --> 00:35:10.220\nmoments in my\n\n818\n00:35:10.220 --> 00:35:11.540\nlife.\n\n819\n00:35:11.540 --> 00:35:15.620\nAnd the reality is that it's just wrong.\n\n820\n00:35:15.620 --> 00:35:21.350\nEvery single person, David, that you know and I know that we pass by on the\n\n821\n00:35:21.350 --> 00:35:22.060\nstreet as\n\n822\n00:35:22.060 --> 00:35:23.580\na story.\n\n823\n00:35:23.580 --> 00:35:25.660\nEvery single person.\n\n824\n00:35:25.660 --> 00:35:28.780\nThere were moments of difficulty, trauma.\n\n825\n00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:31.860\nThere were moments of incredible joy.\n\n826\n00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:35.360\nEven if you think I had the most boring life, you know, I had mom and dad and\n\n827\n00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:36.140\nmiddle-class\n\n828\n00:35:36.140 --> 00:35:41.200\npoem and blah, blah, blah, there are still moments in your life where you were\n\n829\n00:35:41.200 --> 00:35:42.140\nvulnerable,\n\n830\n00:35:42.140 --> 00:35:46.320\nwhere you felt vulnerable, where you were scared, where you had those\n\n831\n00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.460\nuncertainty, where\n\n832\n00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:52.700\nyou didn't know if you were going to make it, where you had self-doubt, where\n\n833\n00:35:52.700 --> 00:35:53.420\nyou failed.\n\n834\n00:35:53.420 --> 00:36:00.480\nAnd part of understanding your story is really trying to dig into those moments\n\n835\n00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:01.540\nand trying\n\n836\n00:36:01.540 --> 00:36:06.940\nto remember how you felt at those times and how they connect to what you do\n\n837\n00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:07.740\ntoday.\n\n838\n00:36:07.740 --> 00:36:08.740\nAnd it's not easy.\n\n839\n00:36:08.740 --> 00:36:12.780\nMost of the stories you hear from founders, I'm helping them articulate them.\n\n840\n00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:15.540\nBut when you hear a founder who can tell a great story about their life, like a\n\n841\n00:36:15.540 --> 00:36:15.940\nRichard\n\n842\n00:36:15.940 --> 00:36:20.730\nBranson or Howard Schultz, it's not that that story came out of them fully\n\n843\n00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:21.580\nformed.\n\n844\n00:36:21.580 --> 00:36:23.900\nOver time, they began to understand their story.\n\n845\n00:36:23.900 --> 00:36:28.300\nYou know, you probably only began to understand your story in the last 10 years\n\n846\n00:36:28.300 --> 00:36:28.380\n.\n\n847\n00:36:28.380 --> 00:36:31.160\nIt's not like you had a fully formed story when you were running Yum, but now\n\n848\n00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:31.900\nwith reflection\n\n849\n00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:36.980\nand time, you really start to put those strings together and understand it.\n\n850\n00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:40.340\nSo as I say, ultimately, everybody has a story.\n\n851\n00:36:40.340 --> 00:36:42.100\nEvery single person does.\n\n852\n00:36:42.100 --> 00:36:45.760\nAnd it's just a matter of giving yourself time to reflect on the moments in\n\n853\n00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:46.300\nyour life\n\n854\n00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:50.300\nthat define who you are and help explain who you are.\n\n855\n00:36:50.300 --> 00:36:54.700\nYou know, you tell so many of those stories so well in your book, How I Built\n\n856\n00:36:54.700 --> 00:36:55.180\nThis, the\n\n857\n00:36:55.180 --> 00:36:59.700\nUnexpected Paths to Success from the World's Post-Inspiring Entrepreneurs.\n\n858\n00:36:59.700 --> 00:37:04.740\nAnd I'm so glad that the book continues to thrive like it does because you give\n\n859\n00:37:04.740 --> 00:37:05.220\nso much\n\n860\n00:37:05.220 --> 00:37:06.620\nfrom that book.\n\n861\n00:37:06.620 --> 00:37:11.500\nYou know, what did you learn from the process of writing that book that is\n\n862\n00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:12.380\nhelping you as\n\n863\n00:37:12.380 --> 00:37:15.180\nyou develop into a better leader today?\n\n864\n00:37:15.180 --> 00:37:18.250\nIt's really hard to write a book, as you know, have you've written so many and\n\n865\n00:37:18.250 --> 00:37:19.020\nit requires\n\n866\n00:37:19.020 --> 00:37:23.700\nyou to make all kinds of sacrifices and hard choices on how I built this?\n\n867\n00:37:23.700 --> 00:37:24.820\nWe make hard choices.\n\n868\n00:37:24.820 --> 00:37:27.420\nWe cut things down or wisdom from the top.\n\n869\n00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:30.180\nWe make choices, but with a book, it's different.\n\n870\n00:37:30.180 --> 00:37:37.420\nI've interviewed now 400 founders and probably 300 or 400 CEOs.\n\n871\n00:37:37.420 --> 00:37:41.100\nAnd in the book, I can only focus on like 20 of them.\n\n872\n00:37:41.100 --> 00:37:45.890\nIt's very, very hard to be that disciplined because I'm naturally, I'm not that\n\n873\n00:37:45.890 --> 00:37:46.780\ndisciplined\n\n874\n00:37:46.780 --> 00:37:47.900\nabout those kinds of things.\n\n875\n00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:49.100\nI want to talk about everything.\n\n876\n00:37:49.100 --> 00:37:51.100\nI want everything included.\n\n877\n00:37:51.100 --> 00:37:54.120\nAnd you come to understand and realize that that's not possible, just like with\n\n878\n00:37:54.120 --> 00:37:54.340\nhow I\n\n879\n00:37:54.340 --> 00:37:55.340\nbuilt this, the show.\n\n880\n00:37:55.340 --> 00:37:59.510\nThe reason why we edited it down to an hour and a half is because we're\n\n881\n00:37:59.510 --> 00:38:00.540\nextracting the\n\n882\n00:38:00.540 --> 00:38:03.980\nbest, best moments from that three hour conversation.\n\n883\n00:38:03.980 --> 00:38:04.980\nWith the book, it's similar.\n\n884\n00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:08.460\nYou know, we had to make difficult choices about what to keep in.\n\n885\n00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:12.350\nYou know, I really also had to think very deeply about the lessons that I\n\n886\n00:38:12.350 --> 00:38:13.020\nwanted the\n\n887\n00:38:13.020 --> 00:38:18.040\nreader to walk away from because the book like the show, you know, it's a\n\n888\n00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:18.880\ndifferent\n\n889\n00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:24.090\nproposition in that it's the same that it's in service of the person reading it\n\n890\n00:38:24.090 --> 00:38:24.420\n.\n\n891\n00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:28.210\nBut it's slightly different because I'm asking them to spend $14.99 on it,\n\n892\n00:38:28.210 --> 00:38:28.740\nright?\n\n893\n00:38:28.740 --> 00:38:32.380\nSo when I was writing the book, I also felt that kind of pressure.\n\n894\n00:38:32.380 --> 00:38:35.760\nI worked with a friend and colleague, Neil's Parker, who is just an amazing\n\n895\n00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:36.380\nperson.\n\n896\n00:38:36.380 --> 00:38:40.580\nAnd together, you know, we were able to really grind down into what mattered.\n\n897\n00:38:40.580 --> 00:38:45.000\nAnd ultimately, I asked myself the same question I asked about the show, which\n\n898\n00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:45.700\nis, am I giving\n\n899\n00:38:45.700 --> 00:38:50.020\nthe person spending $14.99 on this book value for their money?\n\n900\n00:38:50.020 --> 00:38:51.940\nAnd the answer has to be yes.\n\n901\n00:38:51.940 --> 00:38:54.900\nBecause if it's not, I would just be so ashamed.\n\n902\n00:38:54.900 --> 00:39:03.980\nAnd so that's kind of the beginning and the end of how I approached it.\n\n903\n00:39:03.980 --> 00:39:08.260\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Guy Ros in just a moment.\n\n904\n00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:11.670\nWhen Guy talks about doing all that he does in the service of others, it\n\n905\n00:39:11.670 --> 00:39:12.380\nreminds me of\n\n906\n00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:17.040\nthe conversation I had with Jim Nance, the legendary sports caster and my\n\n907\n00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:18.340\nfavorite broadcaster\n\n908\n00:39:18.340 --> 00:39:19.340\nof all time.\n\n909\n00:39:19.340 --> 00:39:22.740\nI'd like to counter what most people try to do today.\n\n910\n00:39:22.740 --> 00:39:27.340\nMost people will push people aside and trip over one another to try to get\n\n911\n00:39:27.340 --> 00:39:27.980\ncredit.\n\n912\n00:39:27.980 --> 00:39:32.370\nAnd I find that the real shining lights in my life are the people that are\n\n913\n00:39:32.370 --> 00:39:33.100\nlooking for\n\n914\n00:39:33.100 --> 00:39:36.300\ncredit the least in their heart, their humble.\n\n915\n00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:40.980\nAnd they realize that all these things happen thanks to teamwork and others.\n\n916\n00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:46.260\nGo back and listen to my entire conversation with Jim, Episode 73 here on How\n\n917\n00:39:46.260 --> 00:39:52.380\nLeaders Lead.\n\n918\n00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:55.770\nI want to take you back for a minute and talk a little bit about your\n\n919\n00:39:55.770 --> 00:39:56.700\nupbringing.\n\n920\n00:39:56.700 --> 00:40:01.270\nTell us a story from your childhood that really helped the most to form the\n\n921\n00:40:01.270 --> 00:40:02.100\nkind of leader\n\n922\n00:40:02.100 --> 00:40:03.500\nyou are today.\n\n923\n00:40:03.500 --> 00:40:10.300\nI was from a pretty early age, I would say, 5th 6th grade, really engaged in\n\n924\n00:40:10.300 --> 00:40:11.660\ncurrent affairs.\n\n925\n00:40:11.660 --> 00:40:16.160\nAnd from a very relatively early age, 7th 8th grade, I was already involved in\n\n926\n00:40:16.160 --> 00:40:16.780\nthe student\n\n927\n00:40:16.780 --> 00:40:17.940\nnewspapers.\n\n928\n00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:22.100\nAnd by the time I got to high school, I was the editor of the student paper.\n\n929\n00:40:22.100 --> 00:40:26.890\nI can't say that I was a strong leader that I, you know, I inspired my fellow\n\n930\n00:40:26.890 --> 00:40:27.820\nhigh school\n\n931\n00:40:27.820 --> 00:40:30.020\nstudents to rally around.\n\n932\n00:40:30.020 --> 00:40:34.600\nI think I learned that I was sort of a command and control type leader when I\n\n933\n00:40:34.600 --> 00:40:35.540\nwas a younger\n\n934\n00:40:35.540 --> 00:40:41.660\nman, really not knowing how to be a leader, but coming to understand over time\n\n935\n00:40:41.660 --> 00:40:41.940\nthat that\n\n936\n00:40:41.940 --> 00:40:47.770\ntype of leadership and that type of approach is probably the least effective\n\n937\n00:40:47.770 --> 00:40:48.940\nway to achieve\n\n938\n00:40:48.940 --> 00:40:55.010\na goal that ultimately you want to gather people together in a consensus around\n\n939\n00:40:55.010 --> 00:40:55.460\nyour\n\n940\n00:40:55.460 --> 00:40:56.460\nidea.\n\n941\n00:40:56.460 --> 00:40:58.420\nYou want to bring them into your idea.\n\n942\n00:40:58.420 --> 00:41:01.060\nAnd part of that is they have to feel ownership.\n\n943\n00:41:01.060 --> 00:41:03.060\nThey have to feel a stake in that idea.\n\n944\n00:41:03.060 --> 00:41:08.580\nAnd they have to have a say in the conversation before a decision is made.\n\n945\n00:41:08.580 --> 00:41:12.590\nAnd so for me, you know, I remember in high school, I was the editor of my\n\n946\n00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:13.700\nstudent paper.\n\n947\n00:41:13.700 --> 00:41:14.700\nI loved it.\n\n948\n00:41:14.700 --> 00:41:17.740\nIt was the most amazing, fulfilling thing for me.\n\n949\n00:41:17.740 --> 00:41:22.700\nI would get to school early and lay up the pages and rewrite copy.\n\n950\n00:41:22.700 --> 00:41:24.780\nAnd ultimately, I was actually ousted.\n\n951\n00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:27.980\nDavid, I was thrown out as the editor of the paper.\n\n952\n00:41:27.980 --> 00:41:33.320\nAnd the reason I was ousted was because the editorial staff revolted against me\n\n953\n00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:33.420\n.\n\n954\n00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:37.340\nAnd they revolted against me because I was a micromanager.\n\n955\n00:41:37.340 --> 00:41:38.700\nI rewrote all their articles.\n\n956\n00:41:38.700 --> 00:41:41.460\nI laid up all their pages differently.\n\n957\n00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:45.980\nI would stay at school until two in the morning to perfect this high school\n\n958\n00:41:45.980 --> 00:41:46.420\npaper.\n\n959\n00:41:46.420 --> 00:41:52.640\nAnd while I thought I was doing what I should be doing, I came to realize later\n\n960\n00:41:52.640 --> 00:41:53.420\non as years\n\n961\n00:41:53.420 --> 00:41:59.120\npassed that I was a poor leader, even though the outcome of the product might\n\n962\n00:41:59.120 --> 00:41:59.460\nhave looked\n\n963\n00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:03.700\ngood, the process of getting it there was not good.\n\n964\n00:42:03.700 --> 00:42:06.700\nAnd that's just as important as the final product.\n\n965\n00:42:06.700 --> 00:42:10.860\nGuy, I watched your commencement speech that you gave to Pitzer College.\n\n966\n00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:15.360\nAnd you started out at 8K and you said, I only hope I look like the NPR nerd\n\n967\n00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:16.460\nyou imagined.\n\n968\n00:42:16.460 --> 00:42:20.420\nWhen did you learn the power of self-depicating humor?\n\n969\n00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:25.150\nIt's something that I like doing because especially when I'm speaking in front\n\n970\n00:42:25.150 --> 00:42:25.940\nof people, and\n\n971\n00:42:25.940 --> 00:42:29.790\nnow when I go somewhere, people recognize me or they think of me in a certain\n\n972\n00:42:29.790 --> 00:42:30.180\nway or\n\n973\n00:42:30.180 --> 00:42:33.160\nthey listen to me, I was just at a conference speaking and people come up and\n\n974\n00:42:33.160 --> 00:42:33.700\nsay, I'm\n\n975\n00:42:33.700 --> 00:42:36.700\nsorry, do you mind if I take a photo with you and people get nervous?\n\n976\n00:42:36.700 --> 00:42:40.540\nAnd I understand why because there are millions of people who listen to me.\n\n977\n00:42:40.540 --> 00:42:44.700\nBut at the same time, one of the reasons why I do that is because I want to put\n\n978\n00:42:44.700 --> 00:42:45.260\npeople\n\n979\n00:42:45.260 --> 00:42:46.260\nat ease.\n\n980\n00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:52.050\nI want them to understand that I am not better or superior or I just happen to\n\n981\n00:42:52.050 --> 00:42:53.100\nhave a large\n\n982\n00:42:53.100 --> 00:42:55.940\naudience of listeners, but I'm not smarter.\n\n983\n00:42:55.940 --> 00:42:57.380\nI don't have better insights.\n\n984\n00:42:57.380 --> 00:43:00.740\nI want people to feel like they can approach me.\n\n985\n00:43:00.740 --> 00:43:05.500\nAnd I'll tell you who's just a master at approachability is Jimmy Fallon.\n\n986\n00:43:05.500 --> 00:43:08.180\nJimmy Fallon, who I've had the chance to be on the show a few times and I've\n\n987\n00:43:08.180 --> 00:43:08.740\ninterviewed\n\n988\n00:43:08.740 --> 00:43:12.690\nhim in public for events, he is one of the most approachable people you will\n\n989\n00:43:12.690 --> 00:43:13.300\never meet\n\n990\n00:43:13.300 --> 00:43:15.300\nand he wants to be that person.\n\n991\n00:43:15.300 --> 00:43:17.220\nHe is exactly who you see on the show.\n\n992\n00:43:17.220 --> 00:43:20.740\nHe is so famous, one of the probably 50 most famous people in America.\n\n993\n00:43:20.740 --> 00:43:23.430\nAnd yet you could go up to him in a restaurant and say, Jimmy, and he'd be like\n\n994\n00:43:23.430 --> 00:43:24.020\n, hey, what's\n\n995\n00:43:24.020 --> 00:43:25.020\nlike?\n\n996\n00:43:25.020 --> 00:43:28.830\nHe walks to work every day in Manhattan and people stop and chat with him and\n\n997\n00:43:28.830 --> 00:43:29.380\nhe loves\n\n998\n00:43:29.380 --> 00:43:30.380\nit.\n\n999\n00:43:30.380 --> 00:43:32.060\nAnd it's amazing and remarkable and inspiring.\n\n1000\n00:43:32.060 --> 00:43:35.890\nAnd I think that trying to find ways to relate to people and for them to\n\n1001\n00:43:35.890 --> 00:43:36.620\nunderstand that\n\n1002\n00:43:36.620 --> 00:43:40.740\nyou are not some magical superhero is a really important thing.\n\n1003\n00:43:40.740 --> 00:43:45.020\nI bet you knew that you'd really made it when you got on the Jimmy Fallon show.\n\n1004\n00:43:45.020 --> 00:43:46.020\nIt was unbelievable.\n\n1005\n00:43:46.020 --> 00:43:49.340\nI mean, several years ago, he invited me on and I was like, I said, is this a\n\n1006\n00:43:49.340 --> 00:43:49.980\nmistake?\n\n1007\n00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:51.700\nI didn't even know why I am.\n\n1008\n00:43:51.700 --> 00:43:52.700\nIt was so weird.\n\n1009\n00:43:52.700 --> 00:43:56.030\nAnd so, yeah, I've been fortunate to be on the show several times and it's so\n\n1010\n00:43:56.030 --> 00:43:56.420\nweird\n\n1011\n00:43:56.420 --> 00:43:59.180\nbecause one time I was on the show when Madonna was the other guest, she was in\n\n1012\n00:43:59.180 --> 00:43:59.540\nthe other\n\n1013\n00:43:59.540 --> 00:44:00.540\ndressing room.\n\n1014\n00:44:00.540 --> 00:44:01.540\nOh my God.\n\n1015\n00:44:01.540 --> 00:44:02.540\nIn one dressing room, Madonna.\n\n1016\n00:44:02.540 --> 00:44:05.420\nThat's the first one I'd love to have lunch with.\n\n1017\n00:44:05.420 --> 00:44:06.900\nShe's such a marketing person.\n\n1018\n00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:08.500\nI've always say, who can I have lunch with?\n\n1019\n00:44:08.500 --> 00:44:10.020\nI'd love to have lunch with Madonna.\n\n1020\n00:44:10.020 --> 00:44:12.260\nI'd like to learn from her.\n\n1021\n00:44:12.260 --> 00:44:15.620\nI've had so much fun with this guy and I got to be respectful of your time.\n\n1022\n00:44:15.620 --> 00:44:19.300\nI could go for another hour, but I want to do a lightning round.\n\n1023\n00:44:19.300 --> 00:44:20.980\nLet's do it.\n\n1024\n00:44:20.980 --> 00:44:23.620\nThe three words that best describe you.\n\n1025\n00:44:23.620 --> 00:44:29.820\nPassionate, determined and loyal.\n\n1026\n00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:34.460\nIf you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be and why?\n\n1027\n00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:40.560\nFor one day, I would want to be an intrepid adventurer, but not a dangerous\n\n1028\n00:44:40.560 --> 00:44:41.180\nadventure,\n\n1029\n00:44:41.180 --> 00:44:46.410\nlike Charles Darwin, like on the HMS Beagle, like going to the Galapagos and\n\n1030\n00:44:46.410 --> 00:44:46.980\njust having\n\n1031\n00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:50.980\na day to be in his brain, observing the world around him.\n\n1032\n00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:53.140\nI think that would be really cool.\n\n1033\n00:44:53.140 --> 00:44:55.340\nWhat's your biggest pet peeve?\n\n1034\n00:44:55.340 --> 00:44:56.340\nMeetings.\n\n1035\n00:44:56.340 --> 00:44:59.500\nWho's your favorite person you've interviewed?\n\n1036\n00:44:59.500 --> 00:45:02.940\nIt's impossible to answer because it's like, who's your favorite child?\n\n1037\n00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:04.580\nAnd I'd say that very earnestly.\n\n1038\n00:45:04.580 --> 00:45:09.620\nI've had a favorite moment with every single person I've interviewed.\n\n1039\n00:45:09.620 --> 00:45:13.580\nI am very inspired by all of them and learn so much from them.\n\n1040\n00:45:13.580 --> 00:45:16.640\nBut one person that I think a lot about is Sal Khan, the founder of Khan\n\n1041\n00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:17.260\nAcademy.\n\n1042\n00:45:17.260 --> 00:45:20.300\nI'm so inspired by what he did.\n\n1043\n00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:25.940\nHe created an incredible free platform that educates 50 million people a month\n\n1044\n00:45:25.940 --> 00:45:26.820\nfor free.\n\n1045\n00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:27.820\nThat's amazing.\n\n1046\n00:45:27.820 --> 00:45:29.860\nHow about your toughest interview and why?\n\n1047\n00:45:29.860 --> 00:45:31.620\nEvery interview is moments that are tough.\n\n1048\n00:45:31.620 --> 00:45:37.570\nI had a very tough interview with Dave Anderson, who founded Famous Dave's BBQ\n\n1049\n00:45:37.570 --> 00:45:39.220\nbecause throughout\n\n1050\n00:45:39.220 --> 00:45:43.620\nthe interview, I was asking him about his life failures.\n\n1051\n00:45:43.620 --> 00:45:44.820\nAnd that's how I built this.\n\n1052\n00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:48.230\nI built this as getting amazingly successful people on and asking about their\n\n1053\n00:45:48.230 --> 00:45:48.980\nfailures.\n\n1054\n00:45:48.980 --> 00:45:52.660\nHe was getting really frustrated and just really frustrated.\n\n1055\n00:45:52.660 --> 00:45:55.100\nAt one point, he's like, \"Why are you asking me about all the times I failed?\n\n1056\n00:45:55.100 --> 00:45:57.420\nWhy don't we talk about my success?\"\n\n1057\n00:45:57.420 --> 00:45:58.820\nWe finished the interview.\n\n1058\n00:45:58.820 --> 00:46:03.740\nHe was really angry and three months later, the episode aired.\n\n1059\n00:46:03.740 --> 00:46:07.460\nAnd he wrote me a note that is so beautiful.\n\n1060\n00:46:07.460 --> 00:46:09.580\nI printed it out and have it on my desk.\n\n1061\n00:46:09.580 --> 00:46:13.480\nAnd he wrote this heartfelt email saying, \"I was ashamed, I was embarrassed and\n\n1062\n00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:14.180\nfrustrated\n\n1063\n00:46:14.180 --> 00:46:16.460\nat how you asked me about failure.\"\n\n1064\n00:46:16.460 --> 00:46:21.370\nThe episode came out last week and I've been overwhelmed at the incredible outp\n\n1065\n00:46:21.370 --> 00:46:22.140\nouring of\n\n1066\n00:46:22.140 --> 00:46:26.420\nlove and appreciation that people had for the interview.\n\n1067\n00:46:26.420 --> 00:46:29.260\nI didn't realize that people wanted to hear my failures and that they would\n\n1068\n00:46:29.260 --> 00:46:29.780\nlearn from\n\n1069\n00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:30.780\nit.\n\n1070\n00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:35.020\nI didn't want to buy it and it was so gratifying because that's what I'm after.\n\n1071\n00:46:35.020 --> 00:46:36.020\nI'm after.\n\n1072\n00:46:36.020 --> 00:46:38.660\nI'm trying to get people to be vulnerable knowing that ultimately it's in their\n\n1073\n00:46:38.660 --> 00:46:39.220\nbest interest\n\n1074\n00:46:39.220 --> 00:46:41.060\nto show vulnerability.\n\n1075\n00:46:41.060 --> 00:46:43.540\nSomething about you that few people would know.\n\n1076\n00:46:43.540 --> 00:46:47.140\nI love to cook.\n\n1077\n00:46:47.140 --> 00:46:49.300\nI'm a very good home cook.\n\n1078\n00:46:49.300 --> 00:46:52.460\nMy one talent, I wouldn't even say I'm a talented interviewer.\n\n1079\n00:46:52.460 --> 00:46:54.460\nI learned how to be a good interviewer.\n\n1080\n00:46:54.460 --> 00:46:57.540\nI think my natural talent is I'm a really good home cook.\n\n1081\n00:46:57.540 --> 00:47:00.360\nDavid, I'm confident enough in the kitchen, I'm embarrassed to say this because\n\n1082\n00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:00.740\nit's going\n\n1083\n00:47:00.740 --> 00:47:03.460\nto sound very, very self-aggrandizing.\n\n1084\n00:47:03.460 --> 00:47:08.550\nI've cooked for a Michelin 3-star chef and a Michelin 2-star chef in my kitchen\n\n1085\n00:47:08.550 --> 00:47:09.380\nat home.\n\n1086\n00:47:09.380 --> 00:47:11.380\nI'm looking forward to the invitation.\n\n1087\n00:47:11.380 --> 00:47:12.380\nI can't wait.\n\n1088\n00:47:12.380 --> 00:47:13.380\nYou're invited.\n\n1089\n00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:14.380\nYeah.\n\n1090\n00:47:14.380 --> 00:47:15.860\nBut your highest aspiration.\n\n1091\n00:47:15.860 --> 00:47:23.250\nMy highest aspiration is to see my children grow up with a very close\n\n1092\n00:47:23.250 --> 00:47:25.580\nrelationship, to be\n\n1093\n00:47:25.580 --> 00:47:27.180\nreally good friends.\n\n1094\n00:47:27.180 --> 00:47:28.900\nThat's my number one aspiration.\n\n1095\n00:47:28.900 --> 00:47:33.360\nI think and I look at people who are 20, 30 years older than me, who have kids\n\n1096\n00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:33.740\nwho are\n\n1097\n00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:36.780\nreally close and I say to them, \"You have succeeded.\n\n1098\n00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:40.220\nYou have children who love each other and are close.\"\n\n1099\n00:47:40.220 --> 00:47:42.060\nThat is all you can do.\n\n1100\n00:47:42.060 --> 00:47:45.140\nIf you can achieve that as a parent, nothing else matters.\n\n1101\n00:47:45.140 --> 00:47:48.300\nWhat project are you working on right now that you can't stop thinking about?\n\n1102\n00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:53.200\nI'm working on a project for a new show where I will be interviewing actors and\n\n1103\n00:47:53.200 --> 00:47:54.180\nmusicians.\n\n1104\n00:47:54.180 --> 00:47:58.660\nI am so excited about it because I want it to be a different kind of interview\n\n1105\n00:47:58.660 --> 00:47:59.220\nshow,\n\n1106\n00:47:59.220 --> 00:48:05.140\nnot a celebrity interview show, but a show that probes creativity and the\n\n1107\n00:48:05.140 --> 00:48:06.820\ncreative process.\n\n1108\n00:48:06.820 --> 00:48:07.820\nI'm so excited.\n\n1109\n00:48:07.820 --> 00:48:11.580\nI can't wait for that.\n\n1110\n00:48:11.580 --> 00:48:15.380\nWhat's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to improve as a\n\n1111\n00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:16.020\nleader?\n\n1112\n00:48:16.020 --> 00:48:22.210\nThe most important piece of advice I would give is to question your assumptions\n\n1113\n00:48:22.210 --> 00:48:22.540\n.\n\n1114\n00:48:22.540 --> 00:48:29.300\nIf you can't do it yourself, find somebody who can challenge your assumptions\n\n1115\n00:48:29.300 --> 00:48:30.100\nbecause\n\n1116\n00:48:30.100 --> 00:48:36.690\nmost of the time our assumptions and perceptions and the way we see the world\n\n1117\n00:48:36.690 --> 00:48:38.260\nis actually not\n\n1118\n00:48:38.260 --> 00:48:43.300\naccurate, not wrong, but not accurate.\n\n1119\n00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:47.900\nWe can only benefit from people who can give us a different perspective.\n\n1120\n00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:51.060\nGuy, I have to ask you one more.\n\n1121\n00:48:51.060 --> 00:48:57.100\nWhen did you know you had the perfect broadcaster voice?\n\n1122\n00:48:57.100 --> 00:48:58.100\nYou know what?\n\n1123\n00:48:58.100 --> 00:48:59.100\nIt's funny.\n\n1124\n00:48:59.100 --> 00:49:01.100\nI never thought that I had a great voice.\n\n1125\n00:49:01.100 --> 00:49:02.100\nIt's amazing.\n\n1126\n00:49:02.100 --> 00:49:03.100\nI have to admit.\n\n1127\n00:49:03.100 --> 00:49:04.100\nIt's soothing.\n\n1128\n00:49:04.100 --> 00:49:05.100\nIt's confident.\n\n1129\n00:49:05.100 --> 00:49:06.100\nIt's unbelievable.\n\n1130\n00:49:06.100 --> 00:49:08.740\nIt's one of a guy.\n\n1131\n00:49:08.740 --> 00:49:09.900\nNo question about it.\n\n1132\n00:49:09.900 --> 00:49:11.100\nJust like you.\n\n1133\n00:49:11.100 --> 00:49:13.980\nI want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show.\n\n1134\n00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:16.060\nI really, really appreciate it.\n\n1135\n00:49:16.060 --> 00:49:20.240\nI have to admit, I was very, very nervous to be interviewing the number one\n\n1136\n00:49:20.240 --> 00:49:21.060\nbroadcaster\n\n1137\n00:49:21.060 --> 00:49:22.060\nin the world.\n\n1138\n00:49:22.060 --> 00:49:23.820\nDavid, thank you so much.\n\n1139\n00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:31.980\nSo great talking with you.\n\n1140\n00:49:31.980 --> 00:49:39.590\nI don't know about you, but after 45 minutes listening to Guy's voice, I'm\n\n1141\n00:49:39.590 --> 00:49:41.220\nfeeling so calm\n\n1142\n00:49:41.220 --> 00:49:42.220\nand reassured.\n\n1143\n00:49:42.220 --> 00:49:46.020\nNow, I have to ask you, do I have that same kind of effect?\n\n1144\n00:49:46.020 --> 00:49:47.700\nNo effect on you?\n\n1145\n00:49:47.700 --> 00:49:49.060\nNo way.\n\n1146\n00:49:49.060 --> 00:49:53.130\nBut seriously, Guy puts some things into perspective and calls out what I would\n\n1147\n00:49:53.130 --> 00:49:53.540\nargue\n\n1148\n00:49:53.540 --> 00:49:58.780\nis one of the top traits of great leaders, act in service of others.\n\n1149\n00:49:58.780 --> 00:50:02.350\nSo this week, here's something simple you can do to apply what you've learned\n\n1150\n00:50:02.350 --> 00:50:02.780\nin this\n\n1151\n00:50:02.780 --> 00:50:04.060\nepisode.\n\n1152\n00:50:04.060 --> 00:50:06.260\nThink about this one question.\n\n1153\n00:50:06.260 --> 00:50:10.140\nHow can you serve the people you lead and your team better?\n\n1154\n00:50:10.140 --> 00:50:15.460\nOur job as leaders is to help our teams and our people to be at their very best\n\n1155\n00:50:15.460 --> 00:50:15.740\n, to think\n\n1156\n00:50:15.740 --> 00:50:19.460\nof others and give them what they need to be successful.\n\n1157\n00:50:19.460 --> 00:50:21.580\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n1158\n00:50:21.580 --> 00:50:26.300\nWhat we learned today is that great leaders act in the service of others.\n\n1159\n00:50:26.300 --> 00:50:30.410\nComing up next on how leaders lead is Marissa Thalberg, the chief marketing and\n\n1160\n00:50:30.410 --> 00:50:31.260\nbrand officer\n\n1161\n00:50:31.260 --> 00:50:37.640\nof Lowe's, and the former head of marketing at Taco Bell, where I got to see\n\n1162\n00:50:37.640 --> 00:50:39.060\nher creativity\n\n1163\n00:50:39.060 --> 00:50:41.700\nand ideas in action.\n\n1164\n00:50:41.700 --> 00:50:45.290\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How leaders lead, where every\n\n1165\n00:50:45.290 --> 00:50:45.780\nThursday\n\n1166\n00:50:45.780 --> 00:50:49.770\nyou get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the\n\n1167\n00:50:49.770 --> 00:50:50.380\nworld.\n\n1168\n00:50:50.380 --> 00:50:54.070\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1169\n00:50:54.070 --> 00:50:54.820\napply to your\n\n1170\n00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:58.140\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1171\n00:50:58.140 --> 00:51:08.140\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n1172\n00:51:08.140 --> 00:51:30.140\n[ Silence ]","

David Novak 0:03

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is guy, Roz, the host and creator of two wildly popular podcast, how I built this and wisdom from the top. In fact, I was just interviewed on wisdom from the top, which is how guy and I got to know each other guy is a remarkable leader who not only has the most soothing voice you'll ever hear, but the motivation behind all that he does is something that we can all learn from, and be inspired by. And it's this, he wants to serve his listeners, and all those that work with him and add value to their lives. And I'll tell you, I can't think of a better quality of leadership than that. Doing all that you do, and service of others. Let's not wait any longer. Here's my conversation with my friend, and soon to be yours. Guy Roz.

Now, guy, I'm sure you're a little nervous, because you're new to this whole podcast thing. But don't worry, I want you to know, I'm going to coach you through it. And we'll have a little fun. Okay.

Guy Raz 1:26

Thank you. But you know, it's funny you say that, David, because I've been in broadcasting. And now we call it podcasting for 25 years. And every time I do an interview, or when I speak, it doesn't matter how experienced I am, I always get a little nervous. And I remember a veteran telling me 10 years ago, he said, the moment you stopped getting nervous is the moment that you've got to try something new, because you're not challenging yourself enough. So I do get a little nervous even now, every time.

David Novak 1:57

Well, I'm glad you're nervous for this show. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I recently had the honor of being on your podcast wisdom from the top and I loved listening to your podcast. So when I got that chance to be on your podcast, I have to tell you, it really was an honor. But I learned when we were talking afterwards that you're really pretty much of an entrepreneur yourself these days, tell us about what you've got going on.

Guy Raz 2:21

You know, it's something I don't talk about too much in part because I don't really want to take the attention away from the shows to me, the shows I do. That's the star I'm not the star of the show how I built this as the guests are, you know, I built this or wisdom on the top or we've got a kids podcast co around the world. For me, it's the content is king, that's the star. And so I haven't really talked about my own entrepreneurial ventures, in part because I've never really thought it was relevant. But increasingly, I'm coming to understand that it is in part because there are a lot of people who are creating companies and businesses around content creation around what they're putting out on YouTube, or, you know, in podcasts or on social media. And it's a really interesting ecosystem. For me, I've got two companies that I co founded. One company, I co founded one company, I founded the company, I founded this called builted productions. And you can pretty much guess what that does, it produces podcasts, like how I built this and wisdom from the top. And we are in partnership with Amazon music and wondery. So we'll be launching new shows in the fall. And the basic premise of that production company, we've got 10 or so employees is that we really want to create content that is worth your time. Right. So essentially, the way I think about shows is, we all have roughly 16 to 18 waking hours during the day, let's say 16, right. And most of us, if we're lucky, have one to two, maybe three hours of personal time, which might include running, exercising, cooking, driving, commuting, and I'm asking you to give me 45 minutes to an hour of that precious time. And so what I give you better be worth your time. And for me to earn your time, I've got to make something really powerful, compelling and value add for your day in your life. And so that's how we think about what we do. We're not writing masterpieces every day. I'm not Shakespeare, but we really try to create things that we think will at least give somebody something to think about and walk away from having learned something or gives them a tool to improve what they do.

David Novak 4:30

Yeah, I want to ask you something about that. Because when I talked to founders, and when I listened to your or how I built this podcast, it seems like these founders all seem to have some sort of noble cause, you know, they don't really go into these things to get rich, but they're trying to enrich the world. So this notion of being worth your time, it seems like your noble causes of this particular business.

Guy Raz 4:53

You know, as humans, we're kind of wired to be selfish, right? Because that's how we survive. We need to eat and we need to secure ourselves wasn't be safe. And I think as we've evolved as humans, we've tried to fight against some of our selfish instincts that are encoded in who we are. And one of the things that really helps me is to think about, it actually is a really important kind of psychological trick that I use, that helps me feel confident about trying to sell what I do, because you know, it's a sales job, I want people to listen to how I built this, I want them to listen to wisdom on the top. But really, what helps me quote unquote, sell those shows, is to think about what I do in service of others. Now, of course, it's how I make a living, I earn money from that. And so it's not a selfless, you know, entirely selfless operation. But at its core, at its heart, what I'm doing is trying to serve the people who don't have access to the founders, I have access to, you know, I can call pretty much any founder and get them on how I built this, we're really privileged and lucky because we have a big platform and audience. But I take that responsibility very seriously. Because I think about somebody who's got a small brick and mortar store who's trying to figure out how to create a second location, or somebody who's running a shop on Etsy, and thinking about how to scale or expand. And I think about what I do as a free business school course for them, you know, a service that is free, that will hopefully give them information that is useful. And so to me, I really do think about what I do in service of others. And it actually, that's what drives me, I get jazzed about that. I love that.

David Novak 6:32

I love that too. And you know, a good friend of mine, Tim Schmoyer, just wrote this book called his secret society success, any list all kinds of examples of people who found that extra gratification by being other directed, and I want you to talk about your other business. But before I do, you know, it seems like the happiest people in the world, based on all the research are those people that are other directed? You know, what do you think makes that so

Guy Raz 6:57

there's been I'm not a neuroscientist, or social scientists, but I've talked to many of them. And I think that there is a very clear connection between giving, and an increase in serotonin and oxytocin in these chemicals in our body that are triggered, when we give, there's something about giving, that really does trigger happiness. And so it's this kind of strange thing, which is, you find that people who are philanthropic, they are of course, motivated by the desire to do well, you're very philanthropic, you want to help you want to use your resources. But it also there's also a really important return on that, which is, it makes you feel really good about what you're doing. Because it makes you feel like you are moving the needle and making a contribution to it needs to change. And so I think that the idea of being in service is very much a very kind of human response. Because being happy or seeking happiness, David, and I think about happiness a lot, because happiness is hard. To be happy. For most of us requires work. It requires constant work. It requires things like thinking about what you do in service of others, it requires taking care of yourself. It requires being part of a community. And it's not easy. It's not always easy to do those things. It takes work. And we're not always happy all the time. There are moments where we're not happy. But it's this magical thing that we're all chasing after.

David Novak 8:22

Well, there's a secret to it. And I think we're both working attitudes best of our ability. Tell me about your other business.

Guy Raz 8:29

Yeah, I have a company that I co founded called Tinker cast its children and family media company. I co founded it with two friends of mine. You know, it started out as an idea back in 2016. I have a good friend named Mindy Thomas. And she is a extremely talented children's radio personality. She has a show on Sirius XM. And I had been appearing on her show as her kind of news person just for fun once a week and I went on a hike and I said, you know, we really should make a show for kids. That is so good. They will ask for it instead of a screen. A show that is so compelling, is so evocative that kids will seek it out instead of a video. And that was the beginnings of what we created in what we launched five years ago, which is a kid's podcast called Wow in the world. And the premise is, every single episode, David comes from a peer reviewed scientific journal article. So we take a peer reviewed scientific study, and we break it down into a journey for kids. So the core of the show is really hard science. But we might go into outer space, we might go in our time machine and go back in time we might ride on our giant pigeon, Reggie, we might go to a game show taping with our nosy neighbor Dennis. We have all these characters that we created in this show and you know very luckily, when we launched it five years ago, it became very popular and today we are very fortunate. It is the top kids podcast in English. So we built a whole camp Running around it with a third co founder named Meredith who's our CEO, Meredith brands are helping Ramseur. And we, we have five podcasts, we have a partnership with Amazon music and wondery, we have a live show production that we just started a live shows again. And this year, we're in Raleigh, Durham, Chicago, Denver, Portland, Nashville, we're going to several cities in 2022. You sell all those out that you sell them out, it's amazed because I make programs for adults. And then I have this show. And we have kids who are 345 678-910-1112, who only know me, as a kid as sort of a silly character on the science show. And it's, it's amazing to be able to be part of it, we have an ed tech platform that we're working on. It's crazy, because we started as a side project. And today we have 22 employees. And so we've built up this amazing company that is just growing like crazy.

David Novak 10:52

That's fantastic. And, you know, I recently wrote this book disrelated called take charge of you, I just got it, you know, and and I talked about the importance of leaders taking a look at their joy blockers and their joy builders. And when you think about the leadership role that you're in now, what are the joy blockers that you have to deal with? And what are your joy builders? And how do you reconcile the two in terms of how you do your work?

Guy Raz 11:17

You know, I think about this a lot, because as you know, David, leadership is a journey that never ends. And I'm 47. And I expect to be a better leader when I'm 57 and 67, and 77. Because I'm a better leader than I was 10 years ago, and I'm learning there are things I'm not good at, and things I wish I could be better at. I'm I'm not detail oriented, I'm detail oriented about the quality of my shows, but I can't keep track of spreadsheets or tasks or things like that. So there are things that I cut out, I don't do slack, for example, which drives my team crazy, they all communicate on Slack. But I can't multitask easily. It's my brain isn't designed for that. I am not great with meetings, meetings, for me are really challenging, because I like to just do and move. And there are types of people who really like to think things out and do them carefully, intentionally and thoughtfully. And I think that is a great approach. And my approach is the opposite. I just go and then kind of apologize later or try and fix it as I'm building the plane, you know, pushing it off the cliff. I think that one of my strengths as a leader is as a connector, I like to connect people with other people who have greater expertise than I do and who can solve problems. And so I really encourage the people who work for me to come to me with solutions rather than problems, they can identify a problem. But I also what I say to my team is, if there's a problem, figure it out and solve it. And if you need to bring it to me, come to me with a problem with three suggested solutions. Because that's really why I brought you in, because I think you can solve the problem. And ultimately, you know, my goal as a leader is to get to a place where I'm learning about things that decisions that were taken after the fact. And by the way, David, I will say this, and you know this, because you came from the ad space. And that's a creative space where you're really focused on like, nuance and words and language use. And there's a lot of control involved with that, and you're a creative person. And with what I do, I have that control freak part of me. But I do find it and I've gotten a lot better. And I And by the way, I would say anybody who's a control freak listening to this, know, there's hope for you because I am one of those people, and I have fought it and continue to fight it. And I have learned over time to cede control to other people and to accept that the decisions others make on behalf of the company or what we do will not always be the decision that I chose. But ultimately, it is a much better way to run an organization.

David Novak 13:47

You know, you have such high self awareness. And that's really a transformational insight about control. When did that Ctrl insight hit you? When did you have that transformational insight, because I can tell this is something that really kind of it hits you over the head.

Guy Raz 14:02

I mean, I'm going through it now, you know, I think it's been an evolution over the last sort of three, four years. And one example is when we started how I built this seven years ago, every single word of that show, I was editing, I was going over scripts with a highlighter, and I was giving very, very specific direction to the producer. And I did that for a year. That is not sustainable. You cannot scale up a business or product. If you maintain that level of control for too long, maybe at the beginning right maybe for a short period of time. It was really hard for me to understand and to accept that I have to let it go. And over time I have let it go and my role in making the product. How I built this or wasn't from the top my role is to make sure that I am doing the absolute best job I can do that I am giving that producer great raw material with which they can then sculpt into something and I might not make the same choices that they make. In editing the final version, we talk and I give them some suggestions. But ultimately it is their call. And I listened to the show, I don't actually listen to how I built this, or wisdom from the top, usually for about two or three months after the episode airs. And the reason why I don't is because I'm susceptible to being impulsive. And I know that if I heard it right, when it came out, and there was something I wasn't happy with, I might call the producer and complain about it. And I don't want to be that person, I had to learn how to not be that person, because that's actually counterproductive. And the way I see my job is to find great people, and to cheer them on, and to cheer them on every way, you know, not only because they want to retain them, but if they leave, if they want to go somewhere else, to cheer them on so much that we continue to maintain our friendship and our collaboration or our, you know, exchanges, which happens all the time. What Tinker cast, we just lost somebody to another company. And it's hard, but I'm cheering her on, because she's gonna learn so much. And I said to her, learn, learn, learn, and then come back and bring that knowledge back to us. You know, and I love I love thinking about about it that way.

David Novak 16:10

But you're still selling man, I'm gonna get you back there sooner or later. Do you enjoy managing people? Now, as you're building these companies? And it sounds like both your companies have huge runway, you're gonna have to scale yourself, you're gonna have to get more and more people. Do you enjoy the process of managing people?

Guy Raz 16:25

You know, David, I'm learning how to do it better. I think that you know, you were a CEO. And so you really were able to develop that skill. It's interesting, because with how I built this, I interview founders, and with wisdom from the top I interview CEOs, mainly. And I know this is a bit controversial, I'm about to say, but I've kind of walked away from both those shows concluding that it's harder to be a CEO than a founder. I really believe that. Because when you're a founder, it's propulsive, you're in the garage, you're tinkering, you're trying to raise the money. It's nonstop, you're not really focused on culture building or management or HR, you're just moving, moving, moving. With management, it's very complex, right, especially if you're taking over a large company. I mean, I think what Sundar Pichai at Google does, I mean, of course, Larry and Sergey are brilliant guys. And what they did was very hard. But I would argue that what he does now is harder than the startup phase, because he's managing a massive multinational company. And with respect to what I do on a very small scale, I'm still in the phase of trying to learn how to be a strong manager. My fault, and I am very aware of this is I'm not good with confrontation. David, it's a weakness of mine, I really prefer, you know, concordance I like to be liked, which I think is also a fault that I've been trying to work on knowing that sometimes people won't like you, or they won't like your decision. So I'm working on it with Tinker cast, I don't manage the company, we have an incredible CEO. But I'm very good at mentoring people and connecting people, which is what I do there. And with built in productions. You know, I'm the CEO, and I oversee it, but we have an operational manager and a managing producer. And they are really focused on people management and staff management and making sure that people feel fulfilled, what I try to do as much as possible is focus on morale. You know, and I know you talked about this, which is the easiest thing you could do is in the best thing you do is to thank people and recognize people, and I've learned that from you, that is so important, is to take the time to recognize people and to recognize what they've done. Because when people recognize they feel valued. We all know that.

David Novak 18:34

Absolutely. And it's interesting, you talk about conflict, because productive conflict is an essential trait for a leader to get better at. And you know, being able to sniff out the conflict, you got to see it in your organization and bringing it forward. I think one of the things that you'll learn as you go through this process more and more is that it's part of getting people to like you, because they really need you to do it. Because if you don't do it, nobody else will. Yeah,

Guy Raz 19:01

I mean, it's interesting, because with Tinker cast, it's a partnership with two partners. And both brilliant and both bring very different strengths. All three of us bring different strengths. And because we're equal co founders, there is conflict. And so that happens among the three of us. And that I think, is healthy and important and productive. When it comes to challenging conflict with team members is I try to be very mindful of the role I have in my companies. And it took me a while to understand that people see me as a powerful person, even if my self perceptions like me powerful, I'm your pal. But when you're a leader, you are perceived to be powerful, and sometimes it can be intimidating to people. And it took me a while to understand that I can be intimidating to people it was kind of a shock to learn that because I didn't know that I never think of myself that way or standoffish or is unapproachable sometimes. And so that's something I've also worked on, you know, and one of the ways I work on That is by trying to be really generous, particularly with younger people who are starting out, and less experienced people because I want them to feel comfortable challenging me too. And so when I talk about conflict, it's more like conflict around challenging employees, which thankfully, I haven't had too much of, that's where I'm weaker as a manager.

David Novak 20:28

I've distilled all I've learned about leadership into three key fundamentals you need to learn if you want to be a great leader and affect change in your organization. I teach these three skills in a free leadership training that you can get access to today, at how leaders lead.com/series get access to it today and learn what I believe to be the three most important things you can do to develop as a leader and make the world a better place. How leaders lead.com/series

You are an entrepreneur now and you talk about entrepreneurship being a mindset. What do you mean by that guy,

Guy Raz 21:10

I just had a conversation with Mark Cuban and Mark Cuban is, you know, one of the most like the guy was, came out of diapers to be an he was born to be an entree, he was reading a book called How to retire at age 35 When he was in college. Like with professional athletes, or CEOs, there is a talent factor like there are some people who are just naturally more talented and gifted. But I think that in my experience with entrepreneurs and founders, most of them learn those skills, most of them develop those skills over time. In fact, many of them aren't necessarily charismatic. There's a guy that I just talked to recently called Frank Yang. And Frank Yang is one of the most self effacing quiet, almost shy, introverted people you will ever meet. And yet Frank, built on his own an incredible company called simple human makes trash cans, kitchen products, it's 100 million millions of dollars a year, he owns the company entirely. And he really built this company, from an idea in his head to improve the trash can to make better design products. And so I think becoming an entrepreneur can very much be a learned skill. And oftentimes, David, people say, Well, what are what do I need to know to be an entrepreneur? What should I do? And of course, there's some obvious answers go work in the industry for a while you want to start a fast food, chicken place, go work at KFC for a few years, and then go and start your own. But there's another factor, which I think is even more important, and it is, learn how to accept no, learn how to accept no, but keep moving forward, learn how to deal with rejection, but keep moving forward. So expose yourself to rejection. And one of the ways that many of the entrepreneurs I've interviewed have exposed themselves to rejection is by being salespeople, cold calling, going door to door and hearing no are not interested or, you know, thank you, but no, and still having to keep going and keep moving forward. Because when you're starting a business, you're going to hear a lot of No, you're gonna hear a lot of nose, you're gonna hear a lot of people who think your idea is stupid, or don't want to invest. And you have to be able to withstand that. And I believe that is a learned skill. For most of us.

David Novak 23:16

I agree. And you talk about the importance of being a kind leader who gave you that insight. And when did that really hit you?

Guy Raz 23:25

I could say you, David and many other founders and CEOs that I've talked to I mean, Howard Schultz is a great example of that, you know, Howard Schultz is a kind leader, he really prioritizes the treatment of his employees. Now, of course, there are all kinds of issues, and some people might challenge that around, you know, their Starbucks employees who are unionizing. And there have been reports about Starbucks opposing it. But I would say that Howard Schultz, in general, his operating principle has been to really take care of the people who work for the company. I mean, they have in general, some of the lowest turnover rates in the QSR. Industry, you know, they've long offered higher pay and benefits and opportunities to get a bachelor's degree. And he was doing that before it became more standard today. I think there's an expectation that leaders need to take care of their people. First, when you were kind of rising up the ranks in corporate America, the guy that was sort of the Alpha model of leadership was Jack Welch. I don't think Jack Welch would be considered to be an acceptable CEO today. I think his brand and his mode of operating. I don't think he would last today. I think he'd be thrown out. You know what I mean? And it's even though he was a brilliant CEO, no question about it. But his style, it's changed. There's I think there's an expectation for the better that leaders need to model kindness as much as possible.

David Novak 24:45

I think your point about Jack is very interesting because I agree with you. I think his style is outdated. My way the highway, the boss mentality. That's yesterday's newspaper. I think the thing about Jack and I knew him and knew him pretty well is that he was so smart. If he'd be coming up in this kind of environment today, he'd be probably the kindest guy in the world because he figured out that's what really drives it. You know, most people know you as the host of how I built this. And he wrote a phenomenal book that everybody should read. Tell us where you really how you birth, this idea of how I built as I understand it was from classwork you did at Harvard.

Guy Raz 25:22

Back in 2008. I had a sabbatical year, which might seem weird because I was only 32. But I started out as a reporter when I was 22. So by that point, I had 10 years of experience, and I had been overseas, I covered the Iraq war, I covered the Afghan war, I covered Kosovo, and the West Bank and Gaza, and I've been all over the place was a reporter. And so I got this fellowship at Harvard for journalists, and it's called the Nieman fellowship, and you could take any class you want. And I had never taken a business class in my life. I studied history, and politics and diplomacy in international relations. That was my wheelhouse. That was that's what I did. So I took a class at Harvard Business School. And it was the first time I ever took a business school class. And you know, with all these impressive young people, and I was stunned at the way they taught Business School. The first day, they gave us a case study denoting my case studies. And it was part A, and we had to read it, and then come back three days later, for part B, and I devoured this, he was actually the story of Howard Schultz, was the first one I ever read. And it read like a short story, it was so compelling. The Pro only problem with it was that you had to pay $100,000 A year and be a student at Harvard Business School to have access to it. And I thought, what if I could do this exact same thing, but even better on the radio, or a podcast or whatever, I wasn't in podcast back then. 2008, but on the radio, and make it free. And that was really the seed that planted the seed. In my mind, I didn't start the show until 2016. But it was this idea that you could essentially take a business school case, study that format, and you could offer it to people for free, in audio form with the person. And that's really how it began. And that was the kind of the mission of the show and thankfully, it remains today.

David Novak 27:14

Again, here, we're talking about a noble cause you wanted to bring people, these leaders that they could never hear about for free, which is a pretty nice thing to do. But you said that you really didn't launch it till 2016. You know, what gave you the confidence to really pursue the idea and do something with it. In my

Guy Raz 27:31

career was really a slow burn. I mean, I was very, very fortunate early in my career to be very successful. I was an overseas correspondent for National Public Radio when I was 25. I was based in Berlin, and I was a war reporter by the age of 26. And all these things that I didn't anticipate, I think many people will share this. I am a confident person today at 47. But I still have doubts about many of my abilities. And I still sort of second guess, you know, ways I do interviews or some of the writing I do. But of course now I've been doing it for so long, I have more confidence. But early in my career, I really did have a major imposter syndrome. You know, I was 25 I was overseas, I was a reporter. And in my heart, I felt in my mind, I felt like I had duped my editors that I had somehow convinced them that I was capable of doing this work. I was really nervous. But I think that nervous energy really propelled a strong work ethic, I worked and outworked everybody because I was so scared that they would find out that I was a fraud, you know that to file more stories and be available to travel everywhere I could travel to. And I think similarly with how I built this, I needed to feel confident that I could do it. And what gave me the confidence was a show that I created a few years before called the TED Radio Hour. And by the time I started how I built this, I had already been a host of All Things Considered on NPR for a few years. And then I started a show called Ted Radio Hour. And that show was in partnership with Ted, the TED talks, people that became really successful. And I began to believe that maybe I could start a new show around an entirely different concept that could also be successful. So I needed to get to a place in my head where I thought, Okay, I'm ready to do this. And if it doesn't work, it's okay. Because I don't have anything to prove. I believe in this thing so much. And I'm so passionate about it that I want to take the leap. So, you know, around that time, I had already started my own business, I was no longer an employee of NPR. And so that was really it. I needed that psychological kind of feeling of being good enough. And it took me a while.

David Novak 29:40

I think it takes us all a while, you know, and I understand that having your first child really had a major impact on how you thought about yourself and your career. Can you tell us about that?

Guy Raz 29:51

In some ways, it was just the most liberating thing that I ever experienced my life and I know you're very close with your daughter and I've got two kids, two boys. And when Henry my oldest son was born, it was weird, because all of a sudden, David, all that ambition, that was just driving me, you know, to work and to travel to constantly try and achieve some, you know, unattainable goal, it just evaporated. It was almost as if my career and what I thought I needed to do to get the next brass ring, it didn't matter anymore. Because I was looking at this child. And I understood and in my mind, that I had one job to do in life. And it was to protect this child and to help transition this child into adulthood, so they could be independent. And that was it. That was my only role. So it's like a biological role. You know, I just, that was it. Humans have been doing this for 300,000 years. And I, I was just part of that chain. What's interesting is that it didn't change my ambition, it changed the way I thought about ambition. So chasing the brass ring became less important. But paradoxically, I became much more successful when I stopped worrying about chasing the brass ring. And that is because I became a father, and my focus, the focus of my attention, and what became important to me was so clear.

David Novak 31:10

Oh, that's cool. You know, you always seem to pull the best out of your guests guy, you know, it's like you bond with them almost immediately you create this relationship? What do you do to make people feel comfortable with you,

Guy Raz 31:24

I mean, there are a couple things that I do. And then a couple of things that I think just happen. So the first thing I do is, I spend a lot of time learning about every person I interview, seven to 10 hours of reading for every guest. And I'm doing a lot of interviews every year. So I'm doing a lot of reading. What that signals to a guest is, I have respect for you and your life, that I really taken the time to learn about your life, because I think it's interesting. And now I want to go even deeper and probe deeper, and I want to explore your life with you. And I want to trigger memories that might be buried, not traumatic memories, any interest details of your life that might be buried, that you may have forgotten about. Because I already have the foundation from which to work, which is I know a lot about you, because I've read about you. And so when people come to the interview, and they can sense through my questions that I've taken a lot of time to learn about them. I think that it triggers something in their brain that basically says, You know what, I'm going to talk more, or I'm going to give more of myself, because clearly this person is, you know, has taken the time to find out about me the other thing, and this is something that you're doing right now, right is there very few moments in our daily lives now, where we can be totally present for an hour or two, right? Because we're constantly distracted with social media and with phones, and just all the time. And here is a moment where it's you and me, Me and the guest are you and me here. And I'm not looking over your shoulder to see what other guests is at the party. Or if there's somebody more important or now that exists. It's just you and me in this tunnel. And I am fully present. And I think that is also it creates a natural connection, because the most valuable thing that you can give anybody as your time. And that's what happens. It's not that I have some magical powers. I'm good at what I do. But not because I'm gifted interviewer. It's because I've been doing this for 25 years, I would hope I would be good. I did that for 25 years. What it is, is it's just being there. It's just being present and listening actively to what somebody's saying. And I think that that's what creates the environment for any kind of rich conversation which of course we hope to have in every episode.

David Novak 33:46

One thing that leaders are being told today and you know, people are writing about is the importance of being a storyteller. You know, you've really got to tell stories to move people and inspire people and you are probably the ultimate storyteller that I've ever met in my life. What advice can you give to us mere mortals on how to tell the story.

Guy Raz 34:09

And I love that you say mere mortals because it implies that I have some superpower. And I don't what I tried to do with how I built this is to dispel the idea that the founders on the shore superheroes, or even wisdom from the top, I want people to understand that everybody starts from a basic place, you know, and has to face certain challenges and that what they do today may seem like it's supernatural power, but it's something that they developed over time. And it's important that people understand that because I want people to think that they can do that too. I really want people to be inspired by that. And so in my case, it's not that I have the supernatural gift of storytelling. It's that, you know, I've been practicing it for a long time. I think that what I'm very good at is getting other people to be storytellers. So it's really about drawing your story out. And together we Find this natural rhythm of telling the story. But a lot of people will say, I first don't have a story. And I've met people who say, I don't have a story, or I don't have any dramatic moments in my life. And the reality is that it's just wrong. Every single person, David, that, you know, and I know that we pass by, on the street has a story, every single person, there were moments of difficulty, trauma, they were moments of incredible joy. Even if you think I had the most boring life, you know, I had mom and dad and middle class home in blah, blah, blah, there are still moments in your life, where you were vulnerable, where you felt vulnerable, or you were scared, or you had those uncertainty, or you didn't know if you're gonna make it, or you had self doubt, where you failed. And part of understanding your story is really trying to dig into those moments, and trying to remember how you felt at those times, and how they connect to what you do today. And it's not easy, most of the stories you hear from founders, I'm helping them articulate them. But when you hear a founder who can tell a great story about their life, like Richard Branson, or Howard Schultz, it's not that that story came out of them fully formed. Over time, they began to understand their story, you know, you probably only began to understand your story in the last 10 years. It's not like you had a fully formed story when you were running young. But now with reflection and time, you really start to put those strings together and understand it. So as I say, ultimately, everybody has a story every single person does. And it's just a matter of giving yourself time to reflect on the moments in your life that define who you are, and help explain who you are.

David Novak 36:50

You know, you tell so many of those stories. So well, in your book, how I built this the unexpected paths to success from the world's most inspiring entrepreneurs. And I'm so glad that the book continues to thrive like it does, because you give so much from that book, you know, what did you learn from the process of writing that book that is helping you as you develop into a better leader today,

Guy Raz 37:14

it's really hard to write a book, as you know, have you've written so many. And it requires you to make all kinds of sacrifices and hard choices. On how I built this, we make hard choices, we cut things down, or wisdom from the top, we make choices. But with a book, it's different. I've interviewed now 400 founders, and probably three or 400 CEOs. And in the book, I could only focus on like 20 of them is very, very hard to be that disciplined, because I'm naturally I'm not that disciplined about those kinds of things, I want to talk about everything I want everything included. And you come to understand and realize that that's not possible, just like with how I built this the show, the reason why we edit it down to an hour and a half is because we're extracting the best best moments from that three hour conversation. With the book, it's similar, you know, we had to make difficult choices about what to keep in, you know, I really also had to think very deeply about the lessons that I wanted the reader to walk away from because the book, like the show, you know, it's a different proposition in that it's the same that it's in service of the person reading it. But it's slightly different, because you're asking them to spend 1499 on it, right? So when I was writing the book, I also felt that kind of pressure, I worked with a friend and colleague, Niels Parker, who is just an amazing person. And together, you know, we were able to really grind down into what mattered and ultimately, I asked myself the same question asked about the show, which is, am I giving the person spending 1499 on this book value for their money? And the answer has to be yes. Because if it's not, I would just be so ashamed. So that's kind of the beginning and the end of how I approached it.

David Novak 39:03

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Guy Roz in just a moment. When guy talks about doing all that he does in the service of others. It reminds me of the conversation I had with Jim Nantz, the legendary sportscaster, and my favorite broadcaster of all time, I like

Jim Nantz 39:19

to counter what most people try to do today, most people will push people aside and trip over one another to try to get credit. And I find that the real shining lights in my life are the people that are looking for credit, the least in their heart. They're humble, and they realize that all these things happen thanks to teamwork and others.

David Novak 39:40

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Jim, Episode 73 here on how leaders lead. I want to take you back for a bit and talk a little bit about your upbringing. Tell us a story from your childhood that really helped The most to form the kind of leader you are today.

Guy Raz 40:03

I was from a pretty early age, I would say, fifth sixth grade really engaged in current affairs. And from a very relatively early age, you know, seventh and eighth grade, I was already involved in the student newspapers. And by the time I got to high school, I was the editor of the student paper. I can't say that I was a strong leader that I, you know, I inspired my fellow high school students to rally around, I think I learned that I was sort of a command and control type leader, when I was a younger man, really not knowing how to be a leader, but coming to understand over time, that that type of leadership, and that type of approach is probably the least effective way to achieve a goal that ultimately, you want to gather people together in a consensus around your idea, you want to bring them into your idea. And part of that is they have to feel ownership, they have to feel a stake in that idea. And they have to have a say in the conversation before a decision is made. And so for me, you know, I remember in high school, I was the editor of my student paper. I loved it, it was the most amazing fulfilling thing for me, I would get to school or lay and lay up the pages and rewrite copy. And ultimately, I was actually ousted. David, I was thrown out as the editor of the paper. And the reason I was ousted was because the editorial staff revolted against me. And they revolted against me because I was a micromanager. I rewrote all their articles, I laid up all their pages differently. I would stay at school until two in the morning to perfect this high school paper. And while I thought I was doing what I should be doing, I came to realize later on as the years passed, that I was a poor leader. Even though the outcome of the product might have looked good. The process of getting it there was not good. And that's just as important as the final product.

David Novak 42:06

Guy. I watched your commencement speech that you gave to Pitzer College, and you started out at a good you said I only hope I look like the NPR nerd you imagined. When did you learn the power of self deprecating humor.

Guy Raz 42:20

It's something that I liked doing because when especially when I'm speaking in front of people, you know, and now when I go somewhere, people recognize me or they think of me in a certain way, or they listen to me, I was just at a conference speaking and you know, people come up and say, I'm sorry, do you mind if I take a photo with you? And people get nervous? And I understand why? Because there are millions of people who listen to me. But at the same time, one of the reasons why I do that is because I want to put people at ease. I want them to understand that I am not better or superior, or you know, it's I just happen to have a large audience of listeners. But I'm not smarter. I don't have better insights. I want people to feel like they can approach me and I'll tell you, who's just a master at approachability is Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Fallon, who I've had the chance to be on a show a few times, and I've interviewed him in public for events. He is one of the most approachable people you will ever meet. And he wants to be that person. He is exactly who you see on the show. He is so famous one of the 50 most famous people in America. And yet, you could go up to him in a restaurant and see Jimmy and he'd be like, hey, what's it like? He walks to work every day in Manhattan, and people stop and chat with him. And he loves it. And it's amazing and remarkable and inspiring. And I think that trying to find ways to relate to people and for them to understand that you are not some magical superhero is a really important thing.

David Novak 43:41

I bet you knew that you'd really made it when you got on the Jimmy Fallon show.

Guy Raz 43:44

It was unbelievable. I mean, several years ago, he invited me on and I was like, I said, this is a mistake. I don't even know why. It was so weird. So yeah, I've been I've been fortunate to be on the show several times. And it's so weird because one time I was on the show when Madonna was the other guests. She was in the other dressing room. Oh my god, one dressing room Madonna.

David Novak 44:02

That's the person I'd love to have lunch with. She's such a marketing person. You know, I've always say Who could I have lunch with? I'd love to have lunch with you. I'd like to learn from her. I've had so much fun with this guy. And I gotta be respectful of your time. I could go for another hour, but I want to do a lightning round. Let's do it. The three words that best describe you,

Guy Raz 44:23

passionate, determined, and loyal.

David Novak 44:29

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Guy Raz 44:33

For one day, I would want to be an intrepid adventurer, but not a dangerous adventure. But like Charles Darwin, like on the HMS Beagle, like going to the Galapagos and, and just having a day to be in his brain observing the world around him. I think that would be really cool.

David Novak 44:52

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Guy Raz 44:54

Meetings?

David Novak 44:55

Who's your favorite person you've interviewed? It's impact

Guy Raz 44:59

Simple to answer because it's like who's your favorite child? And I'd say that very earnestly, I've had a favorite moment with every single person I've interviewed. I am very inspired by all of them and learn so much from them. But you know, one person that I think a lot about is Sal Khan, the founder of Khan Academy, I'm so inspired by what he did. He created an incredible free platform that educates 50 million people a month for free.

David Novak 45:25

That's amazing. How about your toughest interview and why

Guy Raz 45:29

every interview is is moments that are tough. I had a very tough interview with Dave Anderson, who founded famous Dave's barbecue. Because throughout the interview, I was asking him about his life failures. And that's how I built this. I built this as getting amazingly successful people are asking about their failures. And he was getting really frustrated, and just really frustrated at one point, like, why are you asking me about all the times I failed? Why don't we talk about my success. We finished the interview, he was really angry. And three months later, the episode aired. And he wrote me a note that is so beautiful. I printed it out and have it on my desk, and he wrote this heartfelt email saying, I was ashamed. I was embarrassed and frustrated at how you asked me about failure. The episode came out last week, and I've been overwhelmed at the incredible outpouring of love and appreciation that people had for the interview, I didn't realize that people wanted to hear my failures, and that they would learn from it. He was very moved by it. And it was so gratifying because I that's what I'm after. I'm after I'm trying to get people to be vulnerable, knowing that ultimately, it's in their best interest to show vulnerability.

David Novak 46:40

Something about you that few people would know.

Guy Raz 46:43

I love to cook, I'm a very good home cook my my one talent. I'm not I wouldn't even say I'm an talented Interviewer I learned how to be good interviewer. I think my natural talent is I'm a really good home cook. David, I'm confident enough in the kitchen, I'm embarrassed to say this because it's gonna sound very, very self aggrandizing. I've cooked for a Michelin three star chef and a Michelin two star chef in my kitchen at home.

David Novak 47:09

I'm looking forward to the invitation, I can't wait your your highest aspiration,

Guy Raz 47:15

my highest aspiration is to see my children grow up with a very close relationship to be really good friends. That's my number one aspiration, I think and I look at people who are sort of 2030 years older than me, who have kids who are really close. And I say to them, you have succeeded. You have children who love each other and are close like that is all you can do is it like if you can achieve that, as a parent, like nothing else matters.

David Novak 47:44

What projects are you working on right now that you can't stop thinking about?

Guy Raz 47:48

I'm working on a project for a new show where I will be interviewing actors and musicians, and I am so excited about it. Because I want it to be a different kind of interview show not a celebrity interview show but a show that probes creativity and the creative process. And I'm, I'm so excited.

David Novak 48:09

I can't wait for that. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to improve as a leader?

Guy Raz 48:15

The most important piece of advice I would give is to question your assumptions. Question your assumptions. And if you can't do it yourself, find somebody who can challenge your assumptions. Because most of the time, our assumptions and perceptions and the way we see the world is actually not accurate. Not wrong, but not accurate. And we can only benefit from people who can give us a different perspective.

David Novak 48:48

Guy, I have to ask you one more. Where did you know you had the perfect broadcaster voice?

Guy Raz 48:56

You know what? It's funny. I never thought that I had a great voice.

David Novak 49:00

It's amazing. I have to admit, it's soothing. It's good. It's competent. It's like it's unbelievable. It really it's and it's one of the guy, no question about just like you. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. I really, really appreciate it. And I have to admit, I was very, very nervous to be interviewed. The number one podcast in the world.

Guy Raz 49:21

David, thank you so much. So great talking to you.

David Novak 49:33

I don't know about you. But after 45 minutes listening to guy's voice, I'm feeling so calm and reassured. Now I have to ask you, do I have that same kind of effect on you? Go away. But seriously, guy put some things into perspective and calls out what I would argue is one of the top traits of great leaders act in service of others. So this week, here's some things Simple you can do to apply what you've learned in this episode. Think about this one question. How can you serve the people you lead and your team better? Our job as leaders is to help our teams and our people to be at their very best to think of others and give them what they need to be successful. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders act in the service of others. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Marissa Thalberg, the chief marketing and brand Officer of Lowe's and the former head of marketing at Taco Bell, where I got to see her creativity and ideas in action. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen and while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

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