[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_135":-5,"_136":-5,"_137":138,"_139":140,"_141":142},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1139/manage-two-up-and-two-down","id",1139,"title","Manage two-up and two-down","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.640\nto general manager?\n\n2\n00:00:01.640 --> 00:00:04.680\n- Well, you know, I always believed in managing two up\n\n3\n00:00:04.680 --> 00:00:06.120\nand two down.\n\n4\n00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:10.320\nTwo down was managing the people that reported directly to me\n\n5\n00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:13.120\nand then going to the frontline to really understand\n\n6\n00:00:13.120 --> 00:00:14.880\nwhat was happening with our customers\n\n7\n00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:18.560\nand what the issues were in terms of serving our customers.\n\n8\n00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:22.720\nManaging two up meant that I would obviously\n\n9\n00:00:22.720 --> 00:00:26.560\nwork with my coach or my boss and try to help him\n\n10\n00:00:26.560 --> 00:00:29.120\nor her succeed in whatever they were doing.\n\n11\n00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:31.600\nBut I also wanted to manage two up,\n\n12\n00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:35.480\nwhich meant understanding and relating to\n\n13\n00:00:35.480 --> 00:00:39.740\nand showing my boss's boss that I was really,\n\n14\n00:00:39.740 --> 00:00:43.760\nreally interested in what he or she was doing.\n\n15\n00:00:43.760 --> 00:00:46.880\nYou know, for example, I used to meet with Wayne Calloway,\n\n16\n00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:48.800\nwho was the chairman of PepsiCo,\n\n17\n00:00:48.800 --> 00:00:51.240\nand I was running marketing and I wanted to move\n\n18\n00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:54.840\nfrom beyond marketing into general management.\n\n19\n00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:58.000\nSo what I always did when I went in and met with him,\n\n20\n00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.120\nand by the way, that was managing two up\n\n21\n00:01:00.120 --> 00:01:03.200\nbecause my coach or my boss was Craig Wethera,\n\n22\n00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:05.280\nbut I went to see Wayne every quarter.\n\n23\n00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:06.960\nBut when I went in, I didn't just go in\n\n24\n00:01:06.960 --> 00:01:08.640\nto talk about marketing.\n\n25\n00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:11.200\nI always took three to five things\n\n26\n00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.800\nthat I could share with him that I would do if I was him.\n\n27\n00:01:14.800 --> 00:01:18.880\nAnd it showed him that I was thinking broader\n\n28\n00:01:18.880 --> 00:01:20.860\nthan just a marketing person.\n\n29\n00:01:20.860 --> 00:01:23.960\nI wanted him to know that I just wasn't a marketing person.\n\n30\n00:01:23.960 --> 00:01:26.240\nI was someone that really had the capability\n\n31\n00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:28.520\nto be a general manager someday.\n\n32\n00:01:28.520 --> 00:01:30.280\nAnd that's why I wanted to show him\n\n33\n00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:32.240\nthat I was thinking much broader.\n\n34\n00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:35.440\nAnd I think that falls in line with what Mike's talking\n\n35\n00:01:35.440 --> 00:01:39.080\nin terms of strategy and in terms of vision\n\n36\n00:01:39.080 --> 00:01:40.800\nand thinking broader.\n\n37\n00:01:40.800 --> 00:01:42.680\nAnd the other thing that Mike talks about,\n\n38\n00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:46.200\nI just have to echo, you will never, ever get\n\n39\n00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:50.080\nto the next level until two things happen.\n\n40\n00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:54.120\nNumber one, you show people that you are functionally excellent.\n\n41\n00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.320\nSo if you're in marketing, finance, IT or whatever,\n\n42\n00:01:57.320 --> 00:01:59.480\nyou gotta show people that you know how to do\n\n43\n00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:01.200\nyour job really well.\n\n44\n00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:05.040\nAnd you'll never get to be the leader of those teams\n\n45\n00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.160\nif you haven't demonstrated ability to get along\n\n46\n00:02:08.160 --> 00:02:11.400\nwith people, take people with you, inspire them\n\n47\n00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:12.840\nand coach them.\n\n48\n00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.560\nBecause the people that move up ultimately\n\n49\n00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:17.800\nare the people who've demonstrated that they know\n\n50\n00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:19.680\nhow to get the most out of people\n\n51\n00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:21.800\nand the most out of their teams.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",257430,"end_time",397000,"keywords","management, boss, communication, coaching","slug","manage-two-up-and-two-down","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","9tXQ6O900Ld9otPXRnva01a7uxYO2FkFQ2YzUvicHo00Wo","mux_asset_id","aQAKI602znzu001t3bAcSmLeic1zwb00kTCIGsW00BwQQDw","leader_id",154,"episode_id",303,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:38:58.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1139/manage-two-up-and-two-down","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_98":99,"_100":101,"_102":103,"_25":104,"_105":106,"_60":107,"_57":108,"_109":110,"_67":111,"_39":112,"_113":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_114":115,"_86":116,"_44":117,"_118":119,"_120":121,"_46":-5,"_122":123,"_124":125,"_90":126,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":-5,"_54":-5,"_18":55,"_20":56,"_57":58,"_59":-5,"_60":58,"_61":-5,"_62":63,"_64":65,"_66":-5,"_67":-5,"_68":69,"_70":-5,"_71":-5,"_35":36,"_39":72,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_73":74,"_75":76,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":-5,"_82":-5,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_46":-5,"_87":88,"_89":-5,"_90":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","3 More Questions (Mike White) with David Novak and Koula Callahan","3-more-questions-mike-white-with-david-novak-and-koula-callahan","summary","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.800\nWelcome to how leaders lead. I'm Kula Callahan here to bring you another\n\n2\n00:00:07.800 --> 00:00:08.640\nedition of three\n\n3\n00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:12.480\nmore questions with David Novak. David, it's great to be with you again. How\n\n4\n00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:13.040\nare you?\n\n5\n00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:16.930\nI'm doing fine. Kula, it's nice to be with you as well. And today we're taking\n\n6\n00:00:16.930 --> 00:00:17.340\na deeper\n\n7\n00:00:17.340 --> 00:00:22.480\ndive into my conversation with Mike White, the former chairman and CEO of\n\n8\n00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:23.480\nDirectTV.\n\n9\n00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:27.680\nThis episode is one that's going to make you want to write down everything that\n\n10\n00:00:27.680 --> 00:00:28.600\nMike shares.\n\n11\n00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:33.220\nI mean, his answers to your questions, David, are so full of insights and just\n\n12\n00:00:33.220 --> 00:00:33.680\npractical\n\n13\n00:00:33.680 --> 00:00:38.680\ntakeaways that everybody can learn from. So I really encourage you to go back\n\n14\n00:00:38.680 --> 00:00:39.360\ninto feed\n\n15\n00:00:39.360 --> 00:00:45.350\nand listen to Mike's episode because you will certainly learn a lot. But today,\n\n16\n00:00:45.350 --> 00:00:45.960\nwe're going\n\n17\n00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:49.350\nto dive deeper into some of the concepts that he talks about quite often in the\n\n18\n00:00:49.350 --> 00:00:49.960\nepisode.\n\n19\n00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:54.090\nAnd I'm excited to get your feedback and insight around some of those topics,\n\n20\n00:00:54.090 --> 00:00:54.760\nDavid. Are you\n\n21\n00:00:54.760 --> 00:00:56.840\nready for our questions for today?\n\n22\n00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:03.840\nAll right, let's go.\n\n23\n00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:08.470\nQuestion number one. Mike talks a lot about negotiations in this episode. And\n\n24\n00:01:08.470 --> 00:01:08.880\nas CEO of\n\n25\n00:01:08.880 --> 00:01:14.130\nDirectTV, he was part of several high stakes negotiations. In fact, he very\n\n26\n00:01:14.130 --> 00:01:15.240\ncandidly shared\n\n27\n00:01:15.240 --> 00:01:19.310\nthat when you're negotiating with media companies, there really is no such\n\n28\n00:01:19.310 --> 00:01:20.360\nthing as a win-win\n\n29\n00:01:20.360 --> 00:01:25.260\nnegotiation. He says that when you go into a negotiation, you have to know what\n\n30\n00:01:25.260 --> 00:01:25.560\nyour\n\n31\n00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:30.530\nwalk away is. David, what other advice can you give leaders about how to\n\n32\n00:01:30.530 --> 00:01:31.320\nnegotiate?\n\n33\n00:01:31.320 --> 00:01:36.160\nWell, first of all, I want to agree with Mike's point. You know, I think\n\n34\n00:01:36.160 --> 00:01:37.080\nanytime you go into\n\n35\n00:01:37.080 --> 00:01:43.900\nnegotiation, you have to know what you can't afford to give up. And you have to\n\n36\n00:01:43.900 --> 00:01:44.320\nbe able\n\n37\n00:01:44.320 --> 00:01:49.980\nto walk away and come back another day to fight the good fight. So many times\n\n38\n00:01:49.980 --> 00:01:50.320\nyou get\n\n39\n00:01:50.320 --> 00:01:55.550\nfrustrated in negotiations and you want to get to an end game and you end up\n\n40\n00:01:55.550 --> 00:01:56.160\nrolling\n\n41\n00:01:56.160 --> 00:02:00.690\nover on an issue that you really can't afford to roll over on. And that's\n\n42\n00:02:00.690 --> 00:02:01.720\nreally his point.\n\n43\n00:02:01.720 --> 00:02:04.080\nAnd I think it's a great point.\n\n44\n00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:09.560\nBut I think Mike also believes in going for the win-win negotiation because I\n\n45\n00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:10.240\n've seen\n\n46\n00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:15.600\nhim do that many times at PepsiCo. And I think to get to the win-win, you have\n\n47\n00:02:15.600 --> 00:02:16.560\nto understand\n\n48\n00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:22.700\nwhat each side really needs to have in order to drive success for each\n\n49\n00:02:22.700 --> 00:02:24.640\norganization or\n\n50\n00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:30.050\neach entity. So I think you have to be empathetic. You have to sit there with\n\n51\n00:02:30.050 --> 00:02:31.120\nyour team and think\n\n52\n00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:35.960\nabout what did they really want? What's going to make them happy? What do we\n\n53\n00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:36.720\nknow is a real\n\n54\n00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:41.270\ndeal breaker with them? And is that really going to be a deal breaker for us if\n\n55\n00:02:41.270 --> 00:02:42.240\nwe don't get it?\n\n56\n00:02:43.200 --> 00:02:47.840\nAnd when you ask yourself those questions, you kind of have an understanding of\n\n57\n00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:48.480\nwhere the other\n\n58\n00:02:48.480 --> 00:02:54.360\nside is coming to. And then you have to really think about very clearly what\n\n59\n00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:55.600\nyour strategy is.\n\n60\n00:02:55.600 --> 00:03:02.240\nWhat do you want to walk away? What do you have to have to make sure that your\n\n61\n00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:02.880\ncompany is going\n\n62\n00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:07.540\nto go forward and better because of the negotiation that you just made? And I\n\n63\n00:03:07.540 --> 00:03:09.680\nthink when you understand\n\n64\n00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:15.470\nthat, you know what is the nucleus of a win-win. And when you get that win-win,\n\n65\n00:03:15.470 --> 00:03:16.800\nit's very satisfying\n\n66\n00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:20.910\nbecause you can shake hands. Everybody's happy and they walk out of the room\n\n67\n00:03:20.910 --> 00:03:21.520\nknowing that they're\n\n68\n00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:25.680\nleaving better than when they came in. This is so helpful, David. I feel like a\n\n69\n00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:26.720\nlot of leaders,\n\n70\n00:03:26.720 --> 00:03:30.240\nespecially young leaders, feel like if they're bad at negotiating, then they're\n\n71\n00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:30.720\njust bad at\n\n72\n00:03:30.720 --> 00:03:34.680\nnegotiating. But what you've just pointed out is that negotiating is a skill\n\n73\n00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:35.600\nthat you can get\n\n74\n00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:39.090\nbetter at. And using some of these tips that you just shared will certainly\n\n75\n00:03:39.090 --> 00:03:41.440\nhelp our listeners do that.\n\n76\n00:03:41.440 --> 00:03:46.480\nQuestion number two, Mike shares great insights about how someone can move from\n\n77\n00:03:46.480 --> 00:03:47.280\nan individual\n\n78\n00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:52.700\ncontributor in a specific area of expertise to a general manager. He was CFO at\n\n79\n00:03:52.700 --> 00:03:53.360\nPepsiCo\n\n80\n00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:59.300\nbefore he took over as CEO of DirecTV. And Mike talks about how to do that well\n\n81\n00:03:59.300 --> 00:03:59.920\n. He says,\n\n82\n00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:03.990\n\"When you go from individual contributor in a specific area of expertise to\n\n83\n00:04:03.990 --> 00:04:04.960\ngeneral manager,\n\n84\n00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:09.370\nyou've got to know your strategy and you've got to know how to take others with\n\n85\n00:04:09.370 --> 00:04:09.840\nyou.\"\n\n86\n00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.760\nDavid, what other insights can you offer our listeners about how to move from a\n\n87\n00:04:13.760 --> 00:04:14.560\nspecialized\n\n88\n00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:19.120\narea of expertise to general manager? Well, you know, I always believed in\n\n89\n00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:20.560\nmanaging two up\n\n90\n00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:26.300\nand two down. Two down was managing the people that reported directly to me.\n\n91\n00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:27.040\nAnd then going to\n\n92\n00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.690\nthe front line to really understand what was happening with our customers and\n\n93\n00:04:30.690 --> 00:04:31.520\nwhat the issues\n\n94\n00:04:31.520 --> 00:04:37.150\nwere in terms of serving our customers. Managing two up meant that I would\n\n95\n00:04:37.150 --> 00:04:37.680\nobviously\n\n96\n00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:43.610\nwork with my coach or my boss and try to help him or her succeed in whatever\n\n97\n00:04:43.610 --> 00:04:44.960\nthey were doing.\n\n98\n00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:51.360\nBut I also wanted to manage two up, which meant understanding and relating to\n\n99\n00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:52.720\nand showing my\n\n100\n00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:58.880\nboss's boss that I was really, really interested in what he or she was doing.\n\n101\n00:04:59.520 --> 00:05:03.440\nYou know, for example, I used to meet with Wayne Callaway, who was the chairman\n\n102\n00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:04.560\nof PepsiCo.\n\n103\n00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:08.950\nAnd I was running marketing and I wanted to move from beyond marketing into\n\n104\n00:05:08.950 --> 00:05:09.920\ngeneral management.\n\n105\n00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:14.960\nSo what I always did when I went in and met with him, and by the way, that was\n\n106\n00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:15.920\nmanaging two up,\n\n107\n00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:20.290\nbecause my coach or my boss was Craig Weathera, but I went to see Wayne every\n\n108\n00:05:20.290 --> 00:05:21.440\nquarter. But when I\n\n109\n00:05:21.440 --> 00:05:26.050\nwent in, I didn't just go in to talk about marketing. I always took three to\n\n110\n00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:26.880\nfive things\n\n111\n00:05:26.880 --> 00:05:32.800\nthat I could share with him that I would do if I was him. And it showed him\n\n112\n00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:34.160\nthat I was thinking\n\n113\n00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:38.880\nbroader than just a marketing person. I wanted him to know that I just wasn't a\n\n114\n00:05:38.880 --> 00:05:39.760\nmarketing person.\n\n115\n00:05:39.760 --> 00:05:43.830\nI was someone that really had the capability to be a general manager someday.\n\n116\n00:05:43.830 --> 00:05:45.360\nAnd that's why I\n\n117\n00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:49.040\nwanted to show him that I was thinking much broader. And I think, you know,\n\n118\n00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.240\nthat falls in line with\n\n119\n00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:55.570\nwhat Mike's talking in terms of strategy and in terms of vision and thinking\n\n120\n00:05:55.570 --> 00:05:56.480\nbroader.\n\n121\n00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:01.270\nAnd the other thing that Mike talks about, I just have to echo, you will never\n\n122\n00:06:01.270 --> 00:06:02.560\never get to the next\n\n123\n00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:07.720\nlevel until two things happen. Number one, you show people that you are\n\n124\n00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:09.840\nfunctionally excellent.\n\n125\n00:06:09.840 --> 00:06:14.320\nSo if you're in marketing finance, IT or whatever, you got to show people that\n\n126\n00:06:14.320 --> 00:06:15.280\nyou know how to do\n\n127\n00:06:15.280 --> 00:06:20.910\nyour job really well. And you'll never get to be the leader of those teams. If\n\n128\n00:06:20.910 --> 00:06:21.520\nyou haven't\n\n129\n00:06:21.520 --> 00:06:26.810\ndemonstrated ability to get along with people, take people with you, inspire\n\n130\n00:06:26.810 --> 00:06:28.000\nthem and coach them.\n\n131\n00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:32.880\nBecause the people that move up ultimately are the people who've demonstrated\n\n132\n00:06:32.880 --> 00:06:33.760\nthat they know how\n\n133\n00:06:33.760 --> 00:06:36.880\nto get the most out of people and the most out of their teams.\n\n134\n00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:41.250\nThat's so good, David. You know, if someone gets the opportunity to speak with\n\n135\n00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:42.080\ntheir bosses,\n\n136\n00:06:42.080 --> 00:06:45.770\nboss, I mean, you got to be prepared for that time and show them that you\n\n137\n00:06:45.770 --> 00:06:47.200\nreally are thinking\n\n138\n00:06:47.200 --> 00:06:52.320\nabout what you would do in their position and offering them your point of view\n\n139\n00:06:52.320 --> 00:06:53.120\non what's happening in\n\n140\n00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:57.970\nthe business to show that you're confident and capable enough to move up or to\n\n141\n00:06:57.970 --> 00:06:58.880\nmove into a role\n\n142\n00:06:58.880 --> 00:07:03.440\nthat requires more responsibility. At least someday, cool. You're showing that\n\n143\n00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:04.080\nyou might have\n\n144\n00:07:04.080 --> 00:07:09.590\nthat stretch potential. But I have to add this, when you make those suggestions\n\n145\n00:07:09.590 --> 00:07:10.240\n, they better be\n\n146\n00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:15.000\ngrounded in some good sense about the business so that your boss's boss goes,\n\n147\n00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:16.000\nwow, I mean, I really\n\n148\n00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:20.410\nthink that's a good thought or a good idea or a good notion. You know, if it's\n\n149\n00:07:20.410 --> 00:07:21.280\nway off base,\n\n150\n00:07:21.280 --> 00:07:23.680\nyou might not be having that conversation again.\n\n151\n00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:32.020\nAll right, question number three. I love in the episode when you ask Mike about\n\n152\n00:07:32.020 --> 00:07:32.880\nwhy he thinks\n\n153\n00:07:32.880 --> 00:07:38.290\nleaders derail. His answer was very simple. He says that leaders derail because\n\n154\n00:07:38.290 --> 00:07:39.440\ntheir ego takes\n\n155\n00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:44.180\nover. In your opinion, why do you think leaders derail and what can leaders do\n\n156\n00:07:44.180 --> 00:07:45.280\nto avoid that?\n\n157\n00:07:45.280 --> 00:07:49.840\nWell, I think Mike's right. When you're arrogant and you're egotistical, that's\n\n158\n00:07:49.840 --> 00:07:50.720\nnot going to play\n\n159\n00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.920\nwell and you're ultimately going to turn people off and it's going to slow down\n\n160\n00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:55.760\nyour career until\n\n161\n00:07:55.760 --> 00:07:59.760\nyou have enough hard knocks where you realize this just isn't going to work\n\n162\n00:07:59.760 --> 00:08:00.480\nanymore.\n\n163\n00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:06.730\nBut I think that all boils down to self-awareness. Leaders derail when they don\n\n164\n00:08:06.730 --> 00:08:08.160\n't have high self-awareness.\n\n165\n00:08:09.760 --> 00:08:15.200\nYou really need to understand what your strengths and areas of opportunity are.\n\n166\n00:08:15.200 --> 00:08:15.920\nFor example,\n\n167\n00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:22.320\nwhen I was coming up in marketing, I didn't know a lot about finance. I didn't\n\n168\n00:08:22.320 --> 00:08:23.120\nknow a lot about\n\n169\n00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:30.240\noperations. And if I moved into those roles without showing an interest in\n\n170\n00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:31.840\neither one of them and\n\n171\n00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:37.020\nwithout trying to build my expertise so that I least knew enough about those\n\n172\n00:08:37.020 --> 00:08:37.840\nsubjects that I\n\n173\n00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:43.270\ncould ask some good questions, I might go into a broader role and really,\n\n174\n00:08:43.270 --> 00:08:43.600\nreally\n\n175\n00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:50.880\nfoul up and not do that well. You have to know where your weaknesses are and at\n\n176\n00:08:50.880 --> 00:08:51.920\nleast get to the\n\n177\n00:08:51.920 --> 00:08:56.880\npoint where you're at least competent or at least have some knowledge about\n\n178\n00:08:56.880 --> 00:08:57.760\nthese areas.\n\n179\n00:08:57.760 --> 00:09:01.910\nOr otherwise, I think you have a really good shot at derailing when you get\n\n180\n00:09:01.910 --> 00:09:02.880\nthat promotion to\n\n181\n00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:07.520\ntatia into new area. I think what comes with self-awareness to David and\n\n182\n00:09:07.520 --> 00:09:08.720\nsomething you talk about\n\n183\n00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:14.500\nis this posture of continuous improvement and continual learning. I think the\n\n184\n00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:15.200\nsecond that a\n\n185\n00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:18.560\nleader feels like they've learned everything they can about a particular\n\n186\n00:09:18.560 --> 00:09:19.440\nsubject or area of\n\n187\n00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:23.650\nexpertise, that's when they stop growing and that's when that ego kind of comes\n\n188\n00:09:23.650 --> 00:09:24.400\nout. But\n\n189\n00:09:24.400 --> 00:09:30.640\npairing self-awareness with a mindset of avid learning, I think, is a really\n\n190\n00:09:30.640 --> 00:09:31.440\ngreat way to stay\n\n191\n00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:36.080\ngrounded regardless of what role comes your way. You got to be careful not to\n\n192\n00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:37.760\nuse authenticity\n\n193\n00:09:37.760 --> 00:09:43.380\nin quotes as an excuse. A lot of times people are like, \"pop by the sailor man,\n\n194\n00:09:43.380 --> 00:09:44.240\nyou know, I am what\n\n195\n00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:49.920\nI am and I've got to be true to myself.\" Well, that's obviously a good point.\n\n196\n00:09:49.920 --> 00:09:51.440\nYou have to be who you\n\n197\n00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:57.490\nare. But too many times I see people who have really high potential basically\n\n198\n00:09:57.490 --> 00:09:59.040\nderail because they\n\n199\n00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:03.440\njust stand still and they're so stubborn and they say, \"this is who I am and\n\n200\n00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:03.760\nthat's the way\n\n201\n00:10:03.760 --> 00:10:06.700\nhow it's going to be.\" Well, that's fine. I hope you like your current job\n\n202\n00:10:06.700 --> 00:10:07.600\nbecause that's where you're\n\n203\n00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:16.980\ngoing to stay. Well, that wraps today's episode of Three More Questions. Thanks\n\n204\n00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:17.840\nagain for tuning in\n\n205\n00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.420\nto How Leaders Lead. We're on a mission to make the world a better place by\n\n206\n00:10:21.420 --> 00:10:22.240\ndeveloping better\n\n207\n00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.880\nleaders. And if you carve out a little time with us, each and every week, we'll\n\n208\n00:10:25.880 --> 00:10:26.480\nhelp you build the\n\n209\n00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.140\nconfidence you need to lead well. And tuning Thursday for my conversation with\n\n210\n00:10:31.140 --> 00:10:31.920\nPaul Serbati,\n\n211\n00:10:31.920 --> 00:10:37.520\nChairman and CEO of Insparity, a company that he built from scratch that\n\n212\n00:10:37.520 --> 00:10:39.120\nprovides HR solutions\n\n213\n00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:47.120\nfor small and mid-sized businesses.\n\n214\n00:10:47.120 --> 00:11:14.960\n[ Silence ]\n","

Koula Callahan 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead. I'm cooler Callahan here to bring you another edition of three more questions with David Novak. David, it's great to be with you again. How are you?

David Novak 0:13

I'm doing fine. Cool. And it's nice to be with you as well. And today we're taking a deeper dive into my conversation with Mike White, the former chairman and CEO of DirecTV.

Koula Callahan 0:23

This episode is one that's going to make you want to write down everything that Mike shares. I mean, his answer to your questions, David are so full of insights and just practical takeaways that everybody can learn from. So I really encourage you to go back in the feed and listen to Mike's episode, because you will certainly learn a lot. But today, we're going to dive deeper into some of the concepts that he talks about quite often in the episode. And I'm excited to get your feedback and insight around some of those topics. David, are you ready for our questions for today?

David Novak 0:57

All right, let's go.

Koula Callahan 1:03

Question number one. Mike talks a lot about negotiations in this episode. And as CEO of DirecTV, he was part of several high stakes negotiations. In fact, he very candidly shared that when you're negotiating with media companies, there really is no such thing as a win win negotiation. He says that when you go into a negotiation, you have to know what your walkaway is. David, what other advice can you give leaders about how to negotiate? Well?

David Novak 1:32

Well, first of all, I want to agree with Mike's point. You know, I think anytime you go into negotiation, you have to know what you can't afford to give up. And you have to be able to walk away, and come back another day to to fight the good fight. So many times you get frustrated in negotiations, and you want to get to the end game, and you end up, you know, rolling over on an issue that you really can't afford to roll over on. And that's really his point. And I think it's a great point. But I think, you know, Mike also believes in going for the win win negotiation, because I've seen him do that many times at PepsiCo. And I think to get to the Win win, you have to understand what each side really needs to have in order to drive success for each organization, or each entity. So I think you have to be empathetic, you have to sit there with your team, and think about what did they really want? What's going to make them happy? What do we know? Is a real deal breaker with them? And is that really going to be a deal breaker for us if we don't get it. And when you ask yourself those questions, you kind of have an understanding of where the other side is coming to. And then you have to really think about very clearly what your strategy is. What do you want to walk away? What do you have to have to make sure that your company's going to go forward and better because the negotiation that you just made? And I think when you understand that, you know, what is the nucleus of a win win. And when you get that win win, it's very satisfying, because you can shake hands, everybody's happy, and they walk out of the room, knowing that they're leaving better than when they came in.

Koula Callahan 3:23

This is so helpful, David, I feel like a lot of leaders, especially young leaders feel like if they're bad at negotiating, then they're just bad at negotiating. But what you've just pointed out is that negotiating is a skill that you can get better at and using some of these tips that you just shared will certainly help our listeners do that. Question number two, Mike shares great insights about how someone can move from an individual contributor in a specific area of expertise to a general manager. He was CFO at PepsiCo before he took over a CEO of DirecTV. And Mike talks about how to do that. Well. He says when you go from individual contributor and a specific area of expertise to General Manager, you've got to know your strategy. And you've got to know how to take others with you. David, what other insights can you offer our listeners about how to move from a specialized area of expertise to General Manager?

David Novak 4:17

Well, you know, I always believed in managing to up and two down two down was managing the people that reported directly to me and then going to the frontline to really understand what was happening with our customers and what the issues were in terms of serving our customers. Managing to up meant that I would obviously work with my coach or my boss and try to help him or her succeed in whatever they were doing. But I also wanted to manage to up which meant understanding and relating to in showing my boss's boss, that I was really, really interested in what he or she was doing, you know, For example, I used to meet with Wayne Callaway, who was the chairman of PepsiCo. And I was running marketing. And I wanted to move from beyond marketing into general management. So what I always did when I went in and met with him, and by the way that was managing to up because my coach and my boss was Craig weather, but I went to see Wayne every quarter. But when I went in, I didn't just go in to talk about marketing, I always took three to five things that I could share with him that I would do if I was him. And it showed him that I was thinking broader than just a marketing person, I wanted him to know that I just wasn't a marketing person, I was someone that really had the capability to be a general manager someday. And that's why I wanted to show him that I was thinking much broader. And I think, you know, that falls in line with what Mike's talking in terms of strategy. And in terms of vision and thinking broader. And the other thing that Mike talks about, I just have to echo, you will never ever get to the next level. Until two things happen. Number one, you show people that you are functionally Excellent. So if you're in marketing, finance it or whatever, you got to show people that you know how to do your job really well. And you'll never get to be the leader of those teams. If you haven't demonstrated ability to get along with people take people with you inspire them and coach them. Because the people that move up ultimately, are the people who've demonstrated that they know how to get the most out of people and the most out of their teams.

Koula Callahan 6:37

That's so good. David, you know, if someone gets the opportunity to speak with their boss's boss, I mean, you got to be prepared for that time and show them that you really are thinking about what you would do in their position and offering them your point of view on what's happening in the business to show that you're confident and capable enough to move up or to move into a role that requires more responsibility, at least someday

David Novak 7:01

cool, you're showing that you might have that stretch potential. But I have to add this, when you make those suggestions, they better be grounded in some good sense about the business so that your boss's boss goes, Wow. I mean, I really think that's a good good thought or a good idea or a good notion. You know, if it's way off base, you might not be having that conversation again.

Koula Callahan 7:27

All right. Question number three. I love in the episode when you asked Mike about why he thinks leaders derail his answer was very simple. He says that leaders derail because their ego takes over. And your opinion, why do you think leaders derail? And what can leaders do to avoid that?

David Novak 7:45

Well, I think Mike's right, you know, when you're arrogant, and you're egotistical, you know, that's not going to play well. And you're ultimately going to turn people off. And it's going to slow down your career until you, you know, have enough hard knocks where you realize this just isn't gonna work anymore. But I think that all boils down to self awareness, leaders derail when they don't have high self awareness. You know, you really need to understand what your strengths and areas of opportunity are. You know, for example, when I was coming up in marketing, you know, I didn't know a lot about finance, I didn't know a lot about operations. And if I moved into those roles without showing an interest in either one of them, and without trying to build my expertise, so that I least knew enough about those subjects that I could ask some good questions, I might go into a broader role, and really, really foul up and not do that, well. You have to know where your weaknesses are, and at least get to the point where you're at least competent, or at least have some knowledge about these areas, or otherwise, I think you have a really good shot at derailing. When you get that promotion that takes you into new area.

Koula Callahan 9:04

I think what comes with self awareness to David and it's something you talk about is this posture of continuous improvement and continual learning. I think the second that a leader feels like they've learned everything they can about a particular subject or area of expertise, that's when they stopped growing, and that's when that ego kind of comes out. But pairing self awareness with a mindset of avid learning, I think is a really great way to stay grounded regardless of what role comes your way.

David Novak 9:34

You gotta be careful not to use authenticity in quotes as an excuse. A lot of times people are like Popeye the Sailor Man, you know, I am what I am. And I've got to be true to myself. Well, that's obviously a good point. You have to be who you are. But too many times I see people who have really high potential, basically derail because they just stand Still, and they're so stubborn and they say, This is who I am. And that's the way it's gonna be. Well, that's fine. I hope you like your current job because that's where you're gonna stay.

Koula Callahan 10:14

That wraps today's episode of three more questions. Thanks again for tuning in to how leaders lead. We're on a mission to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And if you carve out a little time with us each and every week, we'll help you build the confidence you need to lead well,

David Novak 10:28

and tune in Thursday for my conversation with Paul sir body chairman, CEO of Insperity, a company that he built from scratch that provides HR solutions for small and midsize businesses.

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