[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_137":-5,"_138":-5,"_139":140,"_141":142,"_143":144},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1665/the-difference-between-management-and-leadership","id",1665,"title","The difference between management and leadership","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.000\nWe all learn to be very disciplined.\n\n2\n00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.720\nI'm a separate leadership and\n\n3\n00:00:04.720 --> 00:00:06.060\nmanagement a little bit. They're not really\n\n4\n00:00:06.060 --> 00:00:09.300\nseparable but in management and its follow-up,\n\n5\n00:00:09.300 --> 00:00:10.780\nget it done, it's analytics,\n\n6\n00:00:10.780 --> 00:00:11.580\nget people in the room,\n\n7\n00:00:11.580 --> 00:00:12.900\nit's follow-up is getting the road,\n\n8\n00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:15.100\nit's putting the hours, it's learn, learn, learn.\n\n9\n00:00:15.100 --> 00:00:18.020\nIt doesn't necessarily make you great leader because\n\n10\n00:00:18.020 --> 00:00:20.060\nthe great leader is someone that's someone wants to follow.\n\n11\n00:00:20.060 --> 00:00:22.000\nSo I always ask myself a question now,\n\n12\n00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.780\nwould I want to work for that person?\n\n13\n00:00:23.780 --> 00:00:26.220\nYou want to work for people that you trust,\n\n14\n00:00:26.220 --> 00:00:29.220\nthat you respect, that have your best interests in mind,\n\n15\n00:00:29.220 --> 00:00:30.500\nand they're going to tell you the truth.\n\n16\n00:00:30.500 --> 00:00:32.220\nSo that's feedback good or bad.\n\n17\n00:00:32.220 --> 00:00:34.260\nTo do those things is humility.\n\n18\n00:00:34.260 --> 00:00:36.620\nThose people have to say, \"Hey, David,\n\n19\n00:00:36.620 --> 00:00:37.980\nDavid knows more about me,\n\n20\n00:00:37.980 --> 00:00:39.240\nabout these branches than I do.\"\n\n21\n00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:40.420\nSo I go on the road with him,\n\n22\n00:00:40.420 --> 00:00:42.480\nI know I may be his boss,\n\n23\n00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:45.340\nbut I can't be as good as he is the stuff he's doing.\n\n24\n00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:47.460\nSo leadership is a lot more about\n\n25\n00:00:47.460 --> 00:00:50.820\nheart and humility and learning and sharing\n\n26\n00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:52.700\nthan it is about how smart you are,\n\n27\n00:00:52.700 --> 00:00:54.980\nor follow-up or detail analytics.\n\n28\n00:00:54.980 --> 00:00:56.420\nYou said one thing.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",449940,"end_time",504799,"keywords","Management, leadership, team, teamwork, trust, respect, humility, finance, Chase, banking, CEO","slug","the-difference-between-management-and-leadership","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","a7qGwY01DtrKvZque6AcHC9gL02d3ebgIosINLiNj5Zws","mux_asset_id","1ZQobHCtMxYGDq99ssVBmEBjEVYI6gU1Z9r01NeFu9cQ","leader_id",125,"episode_id",273,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:46:27.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1665/the-difference-between-management-and-leadership","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_101":102,"_103":104,"_105":106,"_25":107,"_108":109,"_62":110,"_59":110,"_111":112,"_69":113,"_39":114,"_115":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_116":117,"_89":118,"_44":119,"_120":121,"_122":123,"_46":-5,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_93":128,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":58,"_59":60,"_61":-5,"_62":60,"_63":-5,"_64":65,"_66":67,"_68":-5,"_69":-5,"_70":71,"_72":73,"_74":-5,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_76":77,"_78":79,"_80":81,"_82":83,"_84":-5,"_85":-5,"_86":87,"_88":-5,"_89":-5,"_46":-5,"_90":91,"_92":-5,"_93":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Part 2: Always Have a Plan to Deal With Problems","part-2-always-have-a-plan-to-deal-with-problems","Learn how Jamie’s straightforward leadership style helped drive to truly. See why listening to your team is good, but not enough. Plus, what you might be getting wrong about strategic planning.","summary","

Today’s guest is Jamie Dimon, Chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase.

If you haven’t already heard part one of this conversation, check the feed and start there instead. It’s a masterclass in dealing with problems by preparing for them ahead of time.

But some problems aren’t possibilities waaaaaay off in the future. They’re right here, right now! And in part two, we get into how Jamie deals with those day-to-day issues.

And there’s a real humility in how he does it. He’s always listening and learning. He genuinely wants to know the issues on the ground in his organization. But he doesn’t stop there. He actually follows through so the problems he uncovers get solved.

It’s rare to find a leader who is willing to listen to issues. But a leader who follows up and actually fixes those issues? That’s the stuff of legend.

But it doesn’t have to be! You just need a plan. And that’s the big takeaway in this conversation with Jamie: always have a plan to deal with problems.

You’ll also learn:

Specifics idea for recognizing your team members’ accomplishments
Four things young leaders can do if they want to make their mark
Why listening to your front lines is half the job – and what you have to do in addition in order to earn your team’s respect
One brilliant idea to help you tackle tough conflicts we often tend to avoid
Jamie’s unique approach to strategic planning – and why he’s careful about how his company uses it

Take your learning further. Get proven leadership advice from these (free!) resources:

The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

Whichever you choose, you can be sure you’ll get the trusted leadership advice you need to advance your career, develop your team, and grow your business.

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.330\nWelcome to Howl Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:07.330 --> 00:00:08.120\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:08.120 --> 00:00:10.320\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:13.760\nI break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:13.760 --> 00:00:14.360\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.360 --> 00:00:18.300\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.300 --> 00:00:20.680\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:20.680 --> 00:00:26.120\nToday's guest is Jamie Diamond, chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase.\n\n9\n00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:29.900\nNow if you haven't already heard part one of this conversation, check the feed\n\n10\n00:00:29.900 --> 00:00:30.520\nand start\n\n11\n00:00:30.520 --> 00:00:33.120\nwith episode 14 instead.\n\n12\n00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:38.300\nIt's a masterclass in dealing with problems by preparing for them ahead of time\n\n13\n00:00:38.300 --> 00:00:38.360\n.\n\n14\n00:00:38.360 --> 00:00:43.480\nBut you know, some problems aren't possibilities way off into the future.\n\n15\n00:00:43.480 --> 00:00:45.760\nThey're right here, right now.\n\n16\n00:00:45.760 --> 00:00:50.280\nAnd in part two, we get into how Jamie deals with those day to day issues.\n\n17\n00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:53.200\nAnd there's a real humility in how he does it.\n\n18\n00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:56.600\nJamie's always listening, he's always learning.\n\n19\n00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:00.800\nHe genuinely wants to know the issues on the ground in his organization.\n\n20\n00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:02.440\nBut he doesn't stop there.\n\n21\n00:01:02.440 --> 00:01:06.400\nHe actually follows through so the problems he uncovers get resolved.\n\n22\n00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:07.400\nImagine that.\n\n23\n00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.270\nI mean, it's rare to find a leader who is willing to listen to issues, but a\n\n24\n00:01:11.270 --> 00:01:11.760\nleader\n\n25\n00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:16.720\nwho follows up and actually fixes those issues, that's the stuff of legend.\n\n26\n00:01:16.720 --> 00:01:19.040\nAnd Jamie Diamond is a legend.\n\n27\n00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:20.100\nBut it doesn't have to be.\n\n28\n00:01:20.100 --> 00:01:24.440\nYou just need a plan and that's the big takeaway in this conversation with\n\n29\n00:01:24.440 --> 00:01:24.860\nJamie.\n\n30\n00:01:24.860 --> 00:01:27.900\nAlways have a plan to deal with problems.\n\n31\n00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:32.870\nSo here's part two of my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours,\n\n32\n00:01:32.870 --> 00:01:33.180\nJamie\n\n33\n00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:39.300\nDiamond.\n\n34\n00:01:39.300 --> 00:01:44.260\nCould you tell us about your upbringing and how it shaped who you are today?\n\n35\n00:01:44.260 --> 00:01:45.260\nYeah.\n\n36\n00:01:45.260 --> 00:01:47.820\nSo David first, I was thrilled to be here as you know, the respect I have for\n\n37\n00:01:47.820 --> 00:01:48.060\nyou is\n\n38\n00:01:48.060 --> 00:01:49.060\nenormous.\n\n39\n00:01:49.060 --> 00:01:51.500\nI'm looking forward to this conversation.\n\n40\n00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:55.580\nSo look, I grew up in Jackson, I was Queens, my grandparents are immigrants.\n\n41\n00:01:55.580 --> 00:01:59.200\nMy parents did my mother find my mother went to college the same time I went to\n\n42\n00:01:59.200 --> 00:01:59.940\ncollege.\n\n43\n00:01:59.940 --> 00:02:00.940\nHe was a stockbroker.\n\n44\n00:02:00.940 --> 00:02:02.980\nSo I grew up kind of interested in financial services.\n\n45\n00:02:02.980 --> 00:02:06.750\nBut you know, there was a strong core, you know, there was always do the right\n\n46\n00:02:06.750 --> 00:02:07.620\nthing.\n\n47\n00:02:07.620 --> 00:02:13.460\nStand by people, do the right thing, tell the truth, do your best, be proud, be\n\n48\n00:02:13.460 --> 00:02:14.060\nyour productive\n\n49\n00:02:14.060 --> 00:02:15.060\ncitizen.\n\n50\n00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:16.980\nYou know, it's a constant refrain that way.\n\n51\n00:02:16.980 --> 00:02:20.580\nAnd two brothers, one was a twin, I'm still very close to both.\n\n52\n00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:23.860\nAnd so I think it was your basic kind of upbringing.\n\n53\n00:02:23.860 --> 00:02:24.860\nYeah, great.\n\n54\n00:02:24.860 --> 00:02:27.980\nDid you have any rivalry with your twin brother?\n\n55\n00:02:27.980 --> 00:02:32.860\nYeah, we had, we were part of a little gang we called the lightning squad.\n\n56\n00:02:32.860 --> 00:02:36.010\nI mean, I didn't even remember this until you asked that I was in general and\n\n57\n00:02:36.010 --> 00:02:36.300\nhe was\n\n58\n00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:39.340\nlike the, you know, the lieutenant or something like that.\n\n59\n00:02:39.340 --> 00:02:40.900\nWe were like 15, we were the little kids.\n\n60\n00:02:40.900 --> 00:02:41.900\nIt was a big kid gang.\n\n61\n00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:43.660\nAnd we literally, you know, we would fight too.\n\n62\n00:02:43.660 --> 00:02:47.660\nI mean, there was constant physical fire stuff like that, but it's very fine.\n\n63\n00:02:47.660 --> 00:02:50.140\nMy brother is an educator.\n\n64\n00:02:50.140 --> 00:02:54.220\nHe's written books, teaches, loves the Alexander technique.\n\n65\n00:02:54.220 --> 00:02:56.260\nSo totally different than me.\n\n66\n00:02:56.260 --> 00:03:01.120\nBut if you met him, the core person, the heart, the soul, the more morality, oh\n\n67\n00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:02.020\n, that's pretty\n\n68\n00:03:02.020 --> 00:03:03.380\nmuch the same.\n\n69\n00:03:03.380 --> 00:03:06.500\nAnd my older brother is a visit.\n\n70\n00:03:06.500 --> 00:03:08.020\nHe's not that much all year and a half.\n\n71\n00:03:08.020 --> 00:03:13.430\nAll the physicists, PhD, MIT, University of Chicago, IBM labs, Nealsboro\n\n72\n00:03:13.430 --> 00:03:14.540\nInstitute, like\n\n73\n00:03:14.540 --> 00:03:17.420\nreal theoretical particle physicists.\n\n74\n00:03:17.420 --> 00:03:20.620\nBut the same thing, I think more morality of the same core.\n\n75\n00:03:20.620 --> 00:03:24.640\nAnd you know, he went to science group, but I was always interested in science\n\n76\n00:03:24.640 --> 00:03:25.100\ntoo.\n\n77\n00:03:25.100 --> 00:03:28.100\nAnd so sounds like you're the dummy in the family, Jane.\n\n78\n00:03:28.100 --> 00:03:29.100\nYes, exactly.\n\n79\n00:03:29.100 --> 00:03:34.600\nWell, I know you went to Harvard and did you have a teacher there that really\n\n80\n00:03:34.600 --> 00:03:35.420\nimpacted\n\n81\n00:03:35.420 --> 00:03:38.740\nyou and you remember in a really fond way?\n\n82\n00:03:38.740 --> 00:03:42.660\nYeah, so Harvard Business School I went to after college and stuff like that.\n\n83\n00:03:42.660 --> 00:03:45.140\nYou know, first of all, they were fabulous teachers there.\n\n84\n00:03:45.140 --> 00:03:47.790\nAnd one of the things that Harvard Business School does that people don't talk\n\n85\n00:03:47.790 --> 00:03:48.380\nabout is\n\n86\n00:03:48.380 --> 00:03:49.780\nthey really rate the teachers.\n\n87\n00:03:49.780 --> 00:03:52.580\nIf you can't teach the kids, you are not there for very long.\n\n88\n00:03:52.580 --> 00:03:57.280\nAnd so the guy, I had a finance professor, Jay Light, who became the dean, who\n\n89\n00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:57.700\nwas an\n\n90\n00:03:57.700 --> 00:03:58.700\nexceptional human being.\n\n91\n00:03:58.700 --> 00:04:00.700\nIn fact, I think I'm going to see him in a week or so.\n\n92\n00:04:00.700 --> 00:04:03.860\nThere's a guy who was his first year there called Joe Bautarroco.\n\n93\n00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:06.240\nAnd he was and retorched him because it was his first year and these kids could\n\n94\n00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:06.740\nbe pretty\n\n95\n00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:07.740\ntough.\n\n96\n00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:09.620\nBut he went on to become an assistant dean.\n\n97\n00:04:09.620 --> 00:04:10.620\nI still see him.\n\n98\n00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:13.940\nHe was one of those guys, the big heart, a big soul.\n\n99\n00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:15.660\nHe's written several books by now.\n\n100\n00:04:15.660 --> 00:04:18.580\nSo I said that was the truth that most movement.\n\n101\n00:04:18.580 --> 00:04:20.260\nAnd I still talk to him.\n\n102\n00:04:20.260 --> 00:04:24.490\nWell, you know, one of our great mentors that we shared is the great and late\n\n103\n00:04:24.490 --> 00:04:25.780\nAndy Pearson,\n\n104\n00:04:25.780 --> 00:04:27.300\nthe past president of PepsiCo.\n\n105\n00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:28.940\nAnd he taught at Harvard Business School.\n\n106\n00:04:28.940 --> 00:04:33.380\nAnd I remember him telling me that he got his 360 degree feedback from the\n\n107\n00:04:33.380 --> 00:04:34.060\nstudents and\n\n108\n00:04:34.060 --> 00:04:36.180\nhe ranked worse than any professor.\n\n109\n00:04:36.180 --> 00:04:40.480\nAnd then he made an objective that he was going to be the best professor the\n\n110\n00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:41.380\nnext year.\n\n111\n00:04:41.380 --> 00:04:44.100\nHow important do you think it is to really get feedback?\n\n112\n00:04:44.100 --> 00:04:46.020\nOh, it's critical.\n\n113\n00:04:46.020 --> 00:04:49.170\nAnd just so you mentioned Andy Pearson because you and I, I think both think\n\n114\n00:04:49.170 --> 00:04:49.700\nthe same.\n\n115\n00:04:49.700 --> 00:04:55.360\nHe's one of the best I've ever seen, both in business because you know the he\n\n116\n00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:56.180\njust, he\n\n117\n00:04:56.180 --> 00:04:57.180\nwas tough minded.\n\n118\n00:04:57.180 --> 00:04:58.180\nHe wasn't tough.\n\n119\n00:04:58.180 --> 00:04:59.180\nHe says, what are the facts?\n\n120\n00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:00.180\nGet it done.\n\n121\n00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:01.180\nDo the follow up.\n\n122\n00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:02.180\nDo the analysis.\n\n123\n00:05:02.180 --> 00:05:03.180\nThere was no BS about it.\n\n124\n00:05:03.180 --> 00:05:04.700\nBut it was always very open.\n\n125\n00:05:04.700 --> 00:05:07.460\nBut his people skills, you know, I mean, I love, I didn't know you.\n\n126\n00:05:07.460 --> 00:05:08.460\nI knew him.\n\n127\n00:05:08.460 --> 00:05:11.940\nBut I mean, he, I was just embracing you and putting his arm around.\n\n128\n00:05:11.940 --> 00:05:12.940\nWasn't threatened by you.\n\n129\n00:05:12.940 --> 00:05:13.940\nYou know, here you are.\n\n130\n00:05:13.940 --> 00:05:15.580\nYou're this young, strong, tough guy.\n\n131\n00:05:15.580 --> 00:05:19.230\nHe's obviously getting older, but he, you know, he bonded and made you partners\n\n132\n00:05:19.230 --> 00:05:19.620\nright\n\n133\n00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:20.620\naway.\n\n134\n00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:23.660\nAnd I mean, he taught both of us a tremendous amount.\n\n135\n00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:28.100\nAnd I would say I learned more from him than just about anybody else.\n\n136\n00:05:28.100 --> 00:05:29.540\nSo and you look, you learn from everybody.\n\n137\n00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:33.870\nI learned from you, like you always do the recognition thing, you know, and\n\n138\n00:05:33.870 --> 00:05:34.220\nwhere I grew\n\n139\n00:05:34.220 --> 00:05:37.390\nup in the world, you're almost afraid of getting recognition for it because\n\n140\n00:05:37.390 --> 00:05:37.860\nthey might want\n\n141\n00:05:37.860 --> 00:05:42.300\nto get paid too much or might go to their head or, and that's all dead wrong.\n\n142\n00:05:42.300 --> 00:05:45.480\nAnd, and the other thing I should say about recognition, which is, I don't know\n\n143\n00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:45.820\nif you\n\n144\n00:05:45.820 --> 00:05:50.420\nwould say it this way, but recognition means you don't always know.\n\n145\n00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:51.980\nIt means you have humility.\n\n146\n00:05:51.980 --> 00:05:55.740\nIt means you're telling the other person, thank you for your contribution.\n\n147\n00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:59.300\nIt means a whole other set of things that a lot of leaders don't like to do.\n\n148\n00:05:59.300 --> 00:06:03.000\nWell, you, you've always been very good at giving credit to people who really\n\n149\n00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:03.460\nperform\n\n150\n00:06:03.460 --> 00:06:04.980\nin an extraordinary way.\n\n151\n00:06:04.980 --> 00:06:08.420\nHow do you decide when you really want to give that personal attaboy?\n\n152\n00:06:08.420 --> 00:06:11.220\nDavid, I wasn't good at it years ago to the truth.\n\n153\n00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:15.990\nAnd, you know, watching you and I, you know, Bob lip and watching Bob lip,\n\n154\n00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:17.020\ncalling people\n\n155\n00:06:17.020 --> 00:06:18.020\nat the end of the year.\n\n156\n00:06:18.020 --> 00:06:20.920\nI mean, I remember you mean, I know Bob, but you used to call people at the end\n\n157\n00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:21.300\nof the\n\n158\n00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:24.900\nyear, pick out the top 30 branch managers and spend all week talking to them.\n\n159\n00:06:24.900 --> 00:06:25.900\nWhat do you learn?\n\n160\n00:06:25.900 --> 00:06:27.300\nHow can we do so well?\n\n161\n00:06:27.300 --> 00:06:30.820\nWhat can we teach other people taking the time to do that?\n\n162\n00:06:30.820 --> 00:06:32.020\nAnd you would do the same thing.\n\n163\n00:06:32.020 --> 00:06:34.880\nLike, I don't know if your listeners know this, but if you used to go to David\n\n164\n00:06:34.880 --> 00:06:35.260\nNovak's\n\n165\n00:06:35.260 --> 00:06:39.040\noffice, he would put every, put every guy, wars got pictures and then he went\n\n166\n00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:39.500\nto the\n\n167\n00:06:39.500 --> 00:06:40.500\nceiling.\n\n168\n00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:41.500\nYou couldn't cover.\n\n169\n00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:43.660\nI showed him as soon as still there.\n\n170\n00:06:43.660 --> 00:06:46.860\nAnd, so it's, it's all the time now.\n\n171\n00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:47.860\nIt's publicly.\n\n172\n00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:49.260\nIt's when they do something above and beyond.\n\n173\n00:06:49.260 --> 00:06:50.260\nYou send them a note.\n\n174\n00:06:50.260 --> 00:06:53.700\nYou know, there, we had a couple of guys who worked around the weekend and the\n\n175\n00:06:53.700 --> 00:06:54.180\ndealers.\n\n176\n00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:58.020\nI mean, literally, literally for 72 hours, I'd call them up and say, thank you,\n\n177\n00:06:58.020 --> 00:06:58.500\nyou know,\n\n178\n00:06:58.500 --> 00:06:59.500\ngoing beyond the call of dude.\n\n179\n00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:02.260\nI was on an airplane and it goes a long way.\n\n180\n00:07:02.260 --> 00:07:05.520\nThey, they both, they all sent emails to their boss saying, Jesus, Jamie, you\n\n181\n00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:05.940\ncalled\n\n182\n00:07:05.940 --> 00:07:10.540\nme to say, thanks for, you know, spending the whole weekend on this one thing.\n\n183\n00:07:10.540 --> 00:07:11.540\nYeah.\n\n184\n00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:14.340\nIt's amazing when you're the leader like you are, when you just are nice and\n\n185\n00:07:14.340 --> 00:07:15.340\nyou're considered\n\n186\n00:07:15.340 --> 00:07:19.220\nof other people's, how much credit you get from being that way, you know, you\n\n187\n00:07:19.220 --> 00:07:19.660\nknow,\n\n188\n00:07:19.660 --> 00:07:23.640\ndo you think that's because leaders take themselves too seriously or just they\n\n189\n00:07:23.640 --> 00:07:24.020\ndon't\n\n190\n00:07:24.020 --> 00:07:25.900\ndo those kinds of things on average?\n\n191\n00:07:25.900 --> 00:07:30.220\nSo I think here's the, what I think is just I've learned over time.\n\n192\n00:07:30.220 --> 00:07:32.820\nWe all learn to be very disciplined.\n\n193\n00:07:32.820 --> 00:07:35.300\nYou know, so I'm a, I'm a separate leadership and management a little bit.\n\n194\n00:07:35.300 --> 00:07:39.390\nThey're not really separable, but like in management and it's follow up, get it\n\n195\n00:07:39.390 --> 00:07:39.780\ndone.\n\n196\n00:07:39.780 --> 00:07:41.460\nIt's analytics, get people out of the room.\n\n197\n00:07:41.460 --> 00:07:42.660\nIt's, Bob has gotten the road.\n\n198\n00:07:42.660 --> 00:07:43.660\nIt's putting the hours.\n\n199\n00:07:43.660 --> 00:07:45.260\nIt's learned, learned, learned.\n\n200\n00:07:45.260 --> 00:07:48.390\nIt doesn't necessarily make you great leader because the great leader is\n\n201\n00:07:48.390 --> 00:07:48.980\nsomeone that's\n\n202\n00:07:48.980 --> 00:07:49.980\nsomeone wants to follow.\n\n203\n00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:53.940\nSo I always ask myself a question now, would I want to work for that person?\n\n204\n00:07:53.940 --> 00:07:57.550\nAnd you want to work for people that you trust, that you respect, that have\n\n205\n00:07:57.550 --> 00:07:58.540\nyour best interests\n\n206\n00:07:58.540 --> 00:08:00.660\nin mind and they're going to tell you the truth.\n\n207\n00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:02.340\nSo that's feedback good or bad.\n\n208\n00:08:02.340 --> 00:08:04.860\nAnd to do those things, it's humility.\n\n209\n00:08:04.860 --> 00:08:07.960\nThose people have to say, Hey, David, David knows more about me about these\n\n210\n00:08:07.960 --> 00:08:08.540\nbranches than\n\n211\n00:08:08.540 --> 00:08:09.540\nI do.\n\n212\n00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:10.540\nSo I go on the road with him.\n\n213\n00:08:10.540 --> 00:08:14.380\nI know I, I may be his boss, but I can't, I can't be as good as he is the stuff\n\n214\n00:08:14.380 --> 00:08:14.820\nhe's\n\n215\n00:08:14.820 --> 00:08:15.820\ndoing.\n\n216\n00:08:15.820 --> 00:08:20.090\nYou know, leadership is a lot more about heart and humility and learning and\n\n217\n00:08:20.090 --> 00:08:20.740\nsharing than\n\n218\n00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:24.900\nit is about how smart you are or follow up or detail analytics.\n\n219\n00:08:24.900 --> 00:08:26.060\nYou know, you said one thing.\n\n220\n00:08:26.060 --> 00:08:30.230\nIt's very important, which, well, all those were good points, but the notion\n\n221\n00:08:30.230 --> 00:08:30.780\nthat I others\n\n222\n00:08:30.780 --> 00:08:34.440\nknow that you have their best interests in mind and that you really, you really\n\n223\n00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:34.860\ndo care\n\n224\n00:08:34.860 --> 00:08:35.860\nabout them.\n\n225\n00:08:35.860 --> 00:08:39.010\nYou know, what do you think as a leader is the best way to really demonstrate\n\n226\n00:08:39.010 --> 00:08:39.380\nthat to\n\n227\n00:08:39.380 --> 00:08:40.540\nothers?\n\n228\n00:08:40.540 --> 00:08:45.270\nSo I think when you say have best interests in mind, so it doesn't mean you, it\n\n229\n00:08:45.270 --> 00:08:45.700\n's not\n\n230\n00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:49.160\nthat you sponsor them to do get a next job when they don't deserve it is that\n\n231\n00:08:49.160 --> 00:08:50.100\nthey, you\n\n232\n00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:52.100\nknow you're going to give them the best shot.\n\n233\n00:08:52.100 --> 00:08:53.900\nYou know you're going to give them honest feedback.\n\n234\n00:08:53.900 --> 00:08:55.980\nYou know you want them to succeed.\n\n235\n00:08:55.980 --> 00:08:59.480\nSo it's like a lot of these jobs, you know, when you put people in a job, you\n\n236\n00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:00.060\nwant, you\n\n237\n00:09:00.060 --> 00:09:02.220\ndo want them to succeed.\n\n238\n00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:04.640\nYou may have to remove them one day because they're holding back the company,\n\n239\n00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:05.020\nsomething\n\n240\n00:09:05.020 --> 00:09:06.020\nlike that.\n\n241\n00:09:06.020 --> 00:09:09.090\nBut even in that case, you gave them a chance, which means honest feedback,\n\n242\n00:09:09.090 --> 00:09:10.100\neven in that case,\n\n243\n00:09:10.100 --> 00:09:13.880\nand the organization sees that, that you, when you made a tough decision, it\n\n244\n00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:14.380\nwas only\n\n245\n00:09:14.380 --> 00:09:18.180\nafter really doing it thoughtfully and you're doing the right thing and you're\n\n246\n00:09:18.180 --> 00:09:18.660\ntaking the\n\n247\n00:09:18.660 --> 00:09:21.940\nperson out of second base because not the second best second baseman, not\n\n248\n00:09:21.940 --> 00:09:22.500\nbecause they're\n\n249\n00:09:22.500 --> 00:09:24.140\nnot your goomba, your friend.\n\n250\n00:09:24.140 --> 00:09:26.490\nBut I, you know, I also think what you're really saying here is that people\n\n251\n00:09:26.490 --> 00:09:26.820\nwill care\n\n252\n00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:29.660\nmore about you once they know you care about them.\n\n253\n00:09:29.660 --> 00:09:30.660\nYeah, absolutely.\n\n254\n00:09:30.660 --> 00:09:33.580\nThey'll tell you the truth and they want to tell you the truth.\n\n255\n00:09:33.580 --> 00:09:35.020\nThey want to be part of the team.\n\n256\n00:09:35.020 --> 00:09:37.380\nThey want to give it, they'll give it their best.\n\n257\n00:09:37.380 --> 00:09:39.920\nThey'll break their, they'll break their back for you if they know that you're,\n\n258\n00:09:39.920 --> 00:09:40.300\nyou're trying\n\n259\n00:09:40.300 --> 00:09:43.260\nto coach a quarterback and you're just one player on the team.\n\n260\n00:09:43.260 --> 00:09:44.260\nYeah.\n\n261\n00:09:44.260 --> 00:09:45.980\nYou know, my daughter wanted me to ask you this one.\n\n262\n00:09:45.980 --> 00:09:47.700\nSo I'm going to do that.\n\n263\n00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:51.710\nShe, which was like, what advice can you give aspiring leaders, you know,\n\n264\n00:09:51.710 --> 00:09:52.580\ntrying to climb\n\n265\n00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:55.340\nup the ranks and make their market business?\n\n266\n00:09:55.340 --> 00:09:57.860\nYou know, earn it every day.\n\n267\n00:09:57.860 --> 00:09:59.500\nLearn, learn, learn.\n\n268\n00:09:59.500 --> 00:10:02.880\nYou're going to get kicked on your ass and sometimes the most important thing,\n\n269\n00:10:02.880 --> 00:10:03.420\nwhat happens\n\n270\n00:10:03.420 --> 00:10:05.460\nto you is how you deal with that.\n\n271\n00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:09.440\nAnd it's, I tell you, it's going to happen and you know, you got to, it's okay\n\n272\n00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:10.060\nto cry.\n\n273\n00:10:10.060 --> 00:10:11.660\nIt's okay to moan.\n\n274\n00:10:11.660 --> 00:10:14.540\nIt's okay to hide for a week or two, but eventually you got to brush yourself\n\n275\n00:10:14.540 --> 00:10:15.300\nup, get off.\n\n276\n00:10:15.300 --> 00:10:19.300\nWhat do you learn from it and move on?\n\n277\n00:10:19.300 --> 00:10:23.320\nWork with and for people you respect because you'll enjoy every day and usually\n\n278\n00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:23.900\nthat will\n\n279\n00:10:23.900 --> 00:10:25.540\nlead you to better places.\n\n280\n00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:28.610\nThey will have your back and I'll help you, including giving the tough feedback\n\n281\n00:10:28.610 --> 00:10:28.940\nor not\n\n282\n00:10:28.940 --> 00:10:30.620\ngiving the promotion you don't deserve.\n\n283\n00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:34.900\nYou and I both know giving people promotion don't deserve is guaranteed road to\n\n284\n00:10:34.900 --> 00:10:35.420\nfailure.\n\n285\n00:10:35.420 --> 00:10:36.420\nIt's guaranteed.\n\n286\n00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:38.750\nAnd you've really hurt the person because, you know, sometimes it's hard to\n\n287\n00:10:38.750 --> 00:10:39.100\ncome back\n\n288\n00:10:39.100 --> 00:10:40.100\nfrom that.\n\n289\n00:10:40.100 --> 00:10:41.620\nSo, and learn, learn, learn.\n\n290\n00:10:41.620 --> 00:10:44.540\nYou spend, I don't know, we, you were, you ran your own brand.\n\n291\n00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:47.300\nYou've probably spent 70, 80% of time learning.\n\n292\n00:10:47.300 --> 00:10:48.300\nWhat's going on here?\n\n293\n00:10:48.300 --> 00:10:49.300\nWhat's the competition doing?\n\n294\n00:10:49.300 --> 00:10:50.540\nWhat's going on in China?\n\n295\n00:10:50.540 --> 00:10:51.580\nWhat's our product menu?\n\n296\n00:10:51.580 --> 00:10:53.740\nHow come this company is doing a better job than they are?\n\n297\n00:10:53.740 --> 00:10:57.050\nYou know, that constant stuff that, you know, if you don't do, you won't be a\n\n298\n00:10:57.050 --> 00:10:57.380\ngood\n\n299\n00:10:57.380 --> 00:10:58.380\nleader.\n\n300\n00:10:58.380 --> 00:10:59.380\nYeah.\n\n301\n00:10:59.380 --> 00:11:00.380\nAbsolutely.\n\n302\n00:11:00.380 --> 00:11:01.690\nYou know, when do you know, when you're coming up, when do you know it's time\n\n303\n00:11:01.690 --> 00:11:02.260\nto step up from\n\n304\n00:11:02.260 --> 00:11:06.420\nbeing an individual contributor to being a manager?\n\n305\n00:11:06.420 --> 00:11:09.820\nWhen do you, when do you, how do you really gauge that as your, as your, as\n\n306\n00:11:09.820 --> 00:11:10.500\nyour climate\n\n307\n00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:11.500\nin the letter?\n\n308\n00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:12.780\nDo you, how do you gauge it personally?\n\n309\n00:11:12.780 --> 00:11:14.420\nHow do you gauge it in somebody else?\n\n310\n00:11:14.420 --> 00:11:15.420\nBoth.\n\n311\n00:11:15.420 --> 00:11:18.400\nYou know, it's a very, very funny thing because I don't know about you, but we\n\n312\n00:11:18.400 --> 00:11:18.900\ndon't teach\n\n313\n00:11:18.900 --> 00:11:21.520\npeople that you just kind of give them all of a sudden your manager and you're\n\n314\n00:11:21.520 --> 00:11:21.780\non your\n\n315\n00:11:21.780 --> 00:11:22.780\nown.\n\n316\n00:11:22.780 --> 00:11:25.100\nAnd you know, there's always an assumption that you're going to be good at it.\n\n317\n00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:28.340\nBut I mentioned follow up list detail, tell them, and a lot of people aren't\n\n318\n00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:29.220\ngood at it.\n\n319\n00:11:29.220 --> 00:11:33.420\nAnd we didn't give any training, so sometimes the company is, is to blame.\n\n320\n00:11:33.420 --> 00:11:37.150\nBut you, I think you'll know it because you feel like you want to be part of a\n\n321\n00:11:37.150 --> 00:11:37.620\nwinning\n\n322\n00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:38.820\nteam.\n\n323\n00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:41.260\nAnd you know, you and I know the joy of being part of a team.\n\n324\n00:11:41.260 --> 00:11:43.620\nIt did something about it that is unbelievable.\n\n325\n00:11:43.620 --> 00:11:44.780\nIt could be a sports team.\n\n326\n00:11:44.780 --> 00:11:47.460\nIt could be a, it could be a restaurant store.\n\n327\n00:11:47.460 --> 00:11:51.020\nIt could be, you know, an analytics team or an M and A deal team.\n\n328\n00:11:51.020 --> 00:11:53.500\nBut man, when you, that team wins, it feels great.\n\n329\n00:11:53.500 --> 00:11:55.100\nAnd you like, you like that more.\n\n330\n00:11:55.100 --> 00:11:57.220\nSome people want to be individual contributors of whole life.\n\n331\n00:11:57.220 --> 00:12:02.660\nThey really like research or detail or analytics or, or, you know, hunters.\n\n332\n00:12:02.660 --> 00:12:05.900\nThey want to go out and bring in the big deal for the rest of you.\n\n333\n00:12:05.900 --> 00:12:10.210\nAnd, you know, and so it's not bad to not want to be an individual contributor\n\n334\n00:12:10.210 --> 00:12:10.620\nor to\n\n335\n00:12:10.620 --> 00:12:11.620\nbe one.\n\n336\n00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:12.620\nYeah, absolutely.\n\n337\n00:12:12.620 --> 00:12:15.330\nYou know, I know one of the things watching you in action is that one of the\n\n338\n00:12:15.330 --> 00:12:15.780\nthings that\n\n339\n00:12:15.780 --> 00:12:19.570\nreally invigorated you is when you went out in the field and met with the front\n\n340\n00:12:19.570 --> 00:12:20.100\nline and\n\n341\n00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:24.380\nyou know, talk to the clerks and the, you know, went to the call centers.\n\n342\n00:12:24.380 --> 00:12:27.020\nYou know, why did you do that in the first place?\n\n343\n00:12:27.020 --> 00:12:28.500\nAnd what did you really get out of it?\n\n344\n00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:30.580\nWhat did you see your role as a leader by doing it?\n\n345\n00:12:30.580 --> 00:12:31.580\nYeah.\n\n346\n00:12:31.580 --> 00:12:34.060\nWe do these bus trips and we have tellers and we go to call centers.\n\n347\n00:12:34.060 --> 00:12:35.060\nWe put them on the bus.\n\n348\n00:12:35.060 --> 00:12:37.060\nWe give tellers and loan arms and branch matters.\n\n349\n00:12:37.060 --> 00:12:39.020\nWe give them a beer and immunity.\n\n350\n00:12:39.020 --> 00:12:40.740\nAnd we tell them, tell us what we're doing right and wrong.\n\n351\n00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:43.860\nAnd we make it fun, but we keep a really detailed list about what we're doing.\n\n352\n00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:45.420\nYou do it to learn.\n\n353\n00:12:45.420 --> 00:12:47.220\nYou do it to say thank you.\n\n354\n00:12:47.220 --> 00:12:48.860\nYou do it to, it is fun.\n\n355\n00:12:48.860 --> 00:12:49.860\nMake it fun, man.\n\n356\n00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:50.860\nYou got to make work fun.\n\n357\n00:12:50.860 --> 00:12:53.180\nIt's hard enough as it is.\n\n358\n00:12:53.180 --> 00:12:55.100\nAnd people sometimes say to me, that's great.\n\n359\n00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:56.100\nYou're showing the flag.\n\n360\n00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:58.500\nNo, I'm not just showing the flag.\n\n361\n00:12:58.500 --> 00:12:59.500\nShowing up is okay.\n\n362\n00:12:59.500 --> 00:13:04.020\nBut listening to what they have to say and fixing it, that's respect.\n\n363\n00:13:04.020 --> 00:13:08.250\nShowing up itself is a little bit of respect, but fixing it is a lot of respect\n\n364\n00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:08.260\n.\n\n365\n00:13:08.260 --> 00:13:10.980\nAnd I know this big, powerful company is doing something stupid.\n\n366\n00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:11.980\nYeah.\n\n367\n00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:16.390\nI remember when you went to Columbus, the call center and you know, you saw\n\n368\n00:13:16.390 --> 00:13:17.500\nsome bureaucracy\n\n369\n00:13:17.500 --> 00:13:22.150\nand the next, you know, the next week you came back and you changed all those\n\n370\n00:13:22.150 --> 00:13:22.860\nthings like\n\n371\n00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:24.020\nwithin two weeks.\n\n372\n00:13:24.020 --> 00:13:28.390\nYou know, and it just traveled all around the country at bank one with a new\n\n373\n00:13:28.390 --> 00:13:29.180\nsheriff was\n\n374\n00:13:29.180 --> 00:13:30.660\nin town.\n\n375\n00:13:30.660 --> 00:13:33.910\nHow much of a role do you think you have just to shock the system as a leader\n\n376\n00:13:33.910 --> 00:13:35.060\nlike that?\n\n377\n00:13:35.060 --> 00:13:37.660\nI think you got to be kind of relentless with that.\n\n378\n00:13:37.660 --> 00:13:41.190\nAnd you and I know the big companies are always slowing down and always getting\n\n379\n00:13:41.190 --> 00:13:42.500\nmore bureaucratic.\n\n380\n00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:46.050\nSo and I have a lot of great leaders now, so I don't have to do it for them,\n\n381\n00:13:46.050 --> 00:13:46.540\nbut I still\n\n382\n00:13:46.540 --> 00:13:47.540\ndo it.\n\n383\n00:13:47.540 --> 00:13:49.380\nI return every phone call, every email.\n\n384\n00:13:49.380 --> 00:13:51.500\nIf I see something that's really dumb, I make sure it gets fixed.\n\n385\n00:13:51.500 --> 00:13:53.620\nI tell them to do it today.\n\n386\n00:13:53.620 --> 00:13:54.620\nYou start this thing.\n\n387\n00:13:54.620 --> 00:13:56.100\nWell, get, we'll get to it when it's on my list.\n\n388\n00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:59.100\nSo, you know, every now and then I still just go do it today.\n\n389\n00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:02.920\nAnd people smile, they say, he's still Jamie, you know, he's told, but as you\n\n390\n00:14:02.920 --> 00:14:03.620\nknow, when\n\n391\n00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:06.020\nyou do all the very good leaders, you got to let them do it too.\n\n392\n00:14:06.020 --> 00:14:10.300\nYou've got all this power as a CEO and you've got this great reputation.\n\n393\n00:14:10.300 --> 00:14:13.660\nYou know, so, you know, how do you really get the truth from people?\n\n394\n00:14:13.660 --> 00:14:17.170\nI mean, how do you know you're getting a real skinny versus people blowing\n\n395\n00:14:17.170 --> 00:14:18.060\nsmoke up there?\n\n396\n00:14:18.060 --> 00:14:19.060\nYou know what?\n\n397\n00:14:19.060 --> 00:14:21.660\nYou know, on that bus trip, you know, you're having a beer with them.\n\n398\n00:14:21.660 --> 00:14:24.260\nYou go to the bars with these people.\n\n399\n00:14:24.260 --> 00:14:26.780\nI would turn every email, every phone call.\n\n400\n00:14:26.780 --> 00:14:29.810\nPeople know it and like, even when I do a town, I do a town with administrative\n\n401\n00:14:29.810 --> 00:14:30.500\nassistants,\n\n402\n00:14:30.500 --> 00:14:32.940\nI don't just stand up there for now and answer their questions.\n\n403\n00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:36.790\nThe ones I can't answer, and they ask a lot of great questions, I respond and\n\n404\n00:14:36.790 --> 00:14:37.380\nemail to\n\n405\n00:14:37.380 --> 00:14:40.510\nthem, you know, a week or two later say, here's the stick thing I couldn't\n\n406\n00:14:40.510 --> 00:14:41.060\nanswer.\n\n407\n00:14:41.060 --> 00:14:43.380\nAnd here's the answer and we're changing some of them.\n\n408\n00:14:43.380 --> 00:14:45.540\nAnd so, people know you actually mean it.\n\n409\n00:14:45.540 --> 00:14:46.540\nYou want to know.\n\n410\n00:14:46.540 --> 00:14:49.760\nThey also have never seen retaliation for someone bringing up something, even\n\n411\n00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:50.140\nif it's\n\n412\n00:14:50.140 --> 00:14:51.140\nstupid.\n\n413\n00:14:51.140 --> 00:14:54.140\nSometimes people, you've been in a town that's a really obnoxious, stupid\n\n414\n00:14:54.140 --> 00:14:54.660\nquestion.\n\n415\n00:14:54.660 --> 00:14:56.660\nAnd you always treat it respectfully.\n\n416\n00:14:56.660 --> 00:15:00.380\nYou know, like if we're a little humor or, okay, that's a good point or, you\n\n417\n00:15:00.380 --> 00:15:01.140\nknow, honestly,\n\n418\n00:15:01.140 --> 00:15:04.620\nwe put that in the web eight times already and please read what we already did.\n\n419\n00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:05.620\nThat kind of stuff.\n\n420\n00:15:05.620 --> 00:15:09.540\nBut, you know, but if you get mad, you know, you're going to people know.\n\n421\n00:15:09.540 --> 00:15:12.840\nAnd so, you've seen at the time that people are responding away, the next time\n\n422\n00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.340\nyou aren't\n\n423\n00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:14.340\ngoing to bring it up.\n\n424\n00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:16.420\nIt's like an abused kid.\n\n425\n00:15:16.420 --> 00:15:18.940\nYou know, if your dad hits you every time you complain, you're not going to\n\n426\n00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:19.460\ncomplain.\n\n427\n00:15:19.460 --> 00:15:22.140\nYou just got to, you know.\n\n428\n00:15:22.140 --> 00:15:23.140\nRight.\n\n429\n00:15:23.140 --> 00:15:24.620\nYou got to make yourself open, vulnerable.\n\n430\n00:15:24.620 --> 00:15:27.270\nAnd, you know, one of the things I heard when I would talk to the people who\n\n431\n00:15:27.270 --> 00:15:27.620\nhad met\n\n432\n00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:29.700\nyou, in fact, I actually was in Florida.\n\n433\n00:15:29.700 --> 00:15:34.820\nI went to a JP Morgan branch and you'd actually visited this branch.\n\n434\n00:15:34.820 --> 00:15:38.250\nAnd they said, you know, he was much nicer and much real than I really thought\n\n435\n00:15:38.250 --> 00:15:39.020\nhe was.\n\n436\n00:15:39.020 --> 00:15:42.980\nYou know, because people will stereotype you one way or the other.\n\n437\n00:15:42.980 --> 00:15:46.340\nThey read about a CEO, like a big company, like they're tough and they pound\n\n438\n00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:46.820\nthe table.\n\n439\n00:15:46.820 --> 00:15:48.420\nI don't pound the table.\n\n440\n00:15:48.420 --> 00:15:49.900\nI don't yell.\n\n441\n00:15:49.900 --> 00:15:53.700\nMaybe I did years ago and I love, I'd be loved with the front line.\n\n442\n00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.500\nAnd so people say, oh, you're nicer than we thought.\n\n443\n00:15:56.500 --> 00:15:57.500\nNo, thanks.\n\n444\n00:15:57.500 --> 00:15:59.500\nI like a test to find out that.\n\n445\n00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:02.020\nLike, Peter, you want to know a surprise?\n\n446\n00:16:02.020 --> 00:16:04.300\nI don't like negotiating.\n\n447\n00:16:04.300 --> 00:16:05.300\nPeople think you do.\n\n448\n00:16:05.300 --> 00:16:08.580\nI'm not, I just, I'd prefer like, I would prefer you do it than me.\n\n449\n00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:10.420\nI want to do a good job of my company.\n\n450\n00:16:10.420 --> 00:16:13.940\nBut, you know, it's because it's because a lot, I do it, but it causes angst.\n\n451\n00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:14.940\nI'd rather not.\n\n452\n00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:18.230\nYou know, and like a lot of, like everybody else, I like to avoid conflict\n\n453\n00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:18.380\nsometimes.\n\n454\n00:16:18.380 --> 00:16:19.380\nToo.\n\n455\n00:16:19.380 --> 00:16:21.540\nBecause you've had enough conflict for a week.\n\n456\n00:16:21.540 --> 00:16:23.100\nIt's like, you know, okay, leave me alone.\n\n457\n00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:25.260\nAnd, but you can't, when you're the boss, you can't.\n\n458\n00:16:25.260 --> 00:16:26.740\nYou got, you get, you have to deal with issues.\n\n459\n00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:27.740\nThey don't age well.\n\n460\n00:16:27.740 --> 00:16:28.740\nProbably do not age well.\n\n461\n00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:32.690\nHow do you muster up that, that, that courage it takes to take on the tough\n\n462\n00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:33.900\nconflict, have\n\n463\n00:16:33.900 --> 00:16:35.220\nthe tough conversation?\n\n464\n00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:38.580\nThat you do get better at because you know they don't age well.\n\n465\n00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:40.740\nI make a list on Sunday night.\n\n466\n00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:43.940\nI don't know if you did something like this, David, but I always think about\n\n467\n00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:44.260\nwhat am I\n\n468\n00:16:44.260 --> 00:16:45.260\navoiding?\n\n469\n00:16:45.260 --> 00:16:46.260\nWhat's tough?\n\n470\n00:16:46.260 --> 00:16:47.260\nWhat do I have to do?\n\n471\n00:16:47.260 --> 00:16:51.840\nI get real feedback from people and you're allowed to walk in and say, you're\n\n472\n00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:52.460\nJamie,\n\n473\n00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:55.910\nyou're taking too long, you're slowing down this or this person's causing\n\n474\n00:16:55.910 --> 00:16:56.500\ndamage.\n\n475\n00:16:56.500 --> 00:16:58.740\nAnd I really don't let myself off the hook.\n\n476\n00:16:58.740 --> 00:16:59.980\nAnd you were on my board for years.\n\n477\n00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:02.900\nI learned something from you, which I do every single board mean.\n\n478\n00:17:02.900 --> 00:17:07.240\nThe since we last met and on that last, the since we last met is those tough\n\n479\n00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:07.820\nthings.\n\n480\n00:17:07.820 --> 00:17:12.090\nAnd when I tell you as a board member that I have this management issue, I have\n\n481\n00:17:12.090 --> 00:17:12.700\nnow opened\n\n482\n00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:15.540\nmy kimono and you aren't going to let me go either.\n\n483\n00:17:15.540 --> 00:17:19.180\nYou're going to say next time, okay, Jamie, what did you do?\n\n484\n00:17:19.180 --> 00:17:21.460\nSo what CEOs do and all managers do?\n\n485\n00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:24.260\nWell, if I don't tell you, I'm not putting pressure on myself.\n\n486\n00:17:24.260 --> 00:17:25.260\nRight.\n\n487\n00:17:25.260 --> 00:17:26.900\nWhen you go public, you can't go back.\n\n488\n00:17:26.900 --> 00:17:28.820\nIt was people you trust.\n\n489\n00:17:28.820 --> 00:17:30.460\nYou as a board member don't want me to do the wrong thing.\n\n490\n00:17:30.460 --> 00:17:31.980\nYou're not going to let me off the hook.\n\n491\n00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:34.060\nYou're going to say, hey, what did you do?\n\n492\n00:17:34.060 --> 00:17:37.280\nAnd okay, that sounds right or it sounds wrong or Jamie, and you guys, you were\n\n493\n00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:37.620\nthere.\n\n494\n00:17:37.620 --> 00:17:41.180\nYou've told me many times, a couple of you said, hey, Jamie, stop.\n\n495\n00:17:41.180 --> 00:17:42.380\nWe know we have to do.\n\n496\n00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:43.380\nWe know it's hard.\n\n497\n00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:44.380\nYou have our support.\n\n498\n00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:45.380\nYou just go do it.\n\n499\n00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:46.380\nYeah.\n\n500\n00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:47.380\nAnd you do need that.\n\n501\n00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:48.380\nYou need it by not as a CEO.\n\n502\n00:17:48.380 --> 00:17:49.380\nYou need it.\n\n503\n00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:50.380\nAny leader needs any.\n\n504\n00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:53.140\nYou'll be running a branch, one of your restaurants.\n\n505\n00:17:53.140 --> 00:17:54.140\nYou know what?\n\n506\n00:17:54.140 --> 00:18:00.670\nThe restaurant manager may need that about one of the people who's working for\n\n507\n00:18:00.670 --> 00:18:01.660\nhim too.\n\n508\n00:18:01.660 --> 00:18:04.690\nYou know, one of the best ways to build a team is to create these shared\n\n509\n00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:05.460\nexperiences.\n\n510\n00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:07.900\nAnd you've mentioned this bus tour you went on.\n\n511\n00:18:07.900 --> 00:18:10.060\nYou know, where did that idea come from?\n\n512\n00:18:10.060 --> 00:18:11.060\nAnd what exactly was it?\n\n513\n00:18:11.060 --> 00:18:13.380\nYou took your senior team out on a bus?\n\n514\n00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:14.380\nYeah.\n\n515\n00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:17.140\nSo first of all, we all do the road trips, get in the plane, go to cities,\n\n516\n00:18:17.140 --> 00:18:17.780\nvisit people,\n\n517\n00:18:17.780 --> 00:18:20.180\nvisit branches, but this is a real bus.\n\n518\n00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:21.580\nJean's polo shirt.\n\n519\n00:18:21.580 --> 00:18:22.580\nAnd you may not remember this.\n\n520\n00:18:22.580 --> 00:18:24.660\nWe got in a bus with you once, the board.\n\n521\n00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:27.780\nYou took us around to visit some restaurants, I think in Louisville.\n\n522\n00:18:27.780 --> 00:18:32.620\nAnd we had the popcorn chicken and a bunch of stuff.\n\n523\n00:18:32.620 --> 00:18:34.300\nBut it was just an idea.\n\n524\n00:18:34.300 --> 00:18:35.740\nAnd I said, let's do it on the road.\n\n525\n00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:36.940\nLet's go off the beaten path.\n\n526\n00:18:36.940 --> 00:18:40.840\nBecause remember, someone, you know, at JP Morgan, Chase, one of the things\n\n527\n00:18:40.840 --> 00:18:41.300\nthat you\n\n528\n00:18:41.300 --> 00:18:42.300\nalways go into the big cities.\n\n529\n00:18:42.300 --> 00:18:44.700\nSo I said, let's go off the beaten path.\n\n530\n00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:50.760\nWe were off the beaten path inland California, you know, Northern Florida, the\n\n531\n00:18:50.760 --> 00:18:51.780\nMidwest, you\n\n532\n00:18:51.780 --> 00:18:56.420\nknow, Grand Rapids, you know, places we wouldn't normally go call centers.\n\n533\n00:18:56.420 --> 00:18:57.580\nIt was a gas.\n\n534\n00:18:57.580 --> 00:18:59.020\nEveryone loved it.\n\n535\n00:18:59.020 --> 00:19:00.500\nWe loved being on the bus for two hours.\n\n536\n00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:03.780\nWe in between, we'd have tellers and loan officers.\n\n537\n00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:06.100\nAnd so we've done it every year since.\n\n538\n00:19:06.100 --> 00:19:09.690\nOther people do it now at the company is always in jeans, even when it's a Palm\n\n539\n00:19:09.690 --> 00:19:10.340\nBeach.\n\n540\n00:19:10.340 --> 00:19:13.380\nI don't know if you were there that night, went someplace.\n\n541\n00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.920\nAnd the invitation said jeans, everyone was wearing, you know, suits and tie,\n\n542\n00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:17.300\nall the\n\n543\n00:19:17.300 --> 00:19:22.060\nretired CEOs and pink shorts and stuff like that.\n\n544\n00:19:22.060 --> 00:19:25.800\nAnd so even CEOs, you know, they show up to these lunches and I'm in jeans and\n\n545\n00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:26.140\nwe have\n\n546\n00:19:26.140 --> 00:19:31.260\nan honest conversation about our country or company or problems.\n\n547\n00:19:31.260 --> 00:19:34.580\nAnd then we also, I'll just try to always take local management always.\n\n548\n00:19:34.580 --> 00:19:35.580\nThat's fantastic.\n\n549\n00:19:35.580 --> 00:19:40.750\nYou know, 70% that Gallup poll recently, 70% of workers are not engaged when\n\n550\n00:19:40.750 --> 00:19:41.420\nthey go to\n\n551\n00:19:41.420 --> 00:19:46.510\nwork, which means like 30% of your people are actually driving your results and\n\n552\n00:19:46.510 --> 00:19:47.220\nproductivity.\n\n553\n00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:51.100\nWhy do you think people aren't engaged and what's your role as a leader to get\n\n554\n00:19:51.100 --> 00:19:51.460\nthem,\n\n555\n00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:54.220\nyou know, to feel like they count?\n\n556\n00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:58.150\nYou know, we've all seen this is that if people don't like their boss and that\n\n557\n00:19:58.150 --> 00:19:58.660\nis almost\n\n558\n00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:02.530\nalways number one, you know, like an unhappy employee is usually because they\n\n559\n00:20:02.530 --> 00:20:03.140\n're not going\n\n560\n00:20:03.140 --> 00:20:08.020\nto own their boss, that attrition is because that people don't make the job fun\n\n561\n00:20:08.020 --> 00:20:08.180\n.\n\n562\n00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:11.800\nPeople give you a boring job, you know, so I hit like a bright kid, you know,\n\n563\n00:20:11.800 --> 00:20:12.220\nwhere a\n\n564\n00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:16.200\nbright executive and I give him the job, I don't let him do it or it's just\n\n565\n00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:16.860\nwrote.\n\n566\n00:20:16.860 --> 00:20:18.540\nYou know, you're going to get disengaged.\n\n567\n00:20:18.540 --> 00:20:21.670\nI think there's a tremendous amount of that that goes on, particularly in\n\n568\n00:20:21.670 --> 00:20:22.500\ncorporate America.\n\n569\n00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:25.580\nIt happens in small business, it happens in corporate America and you can see,\n\n570\n00:20:25.580 --> 00:20:25.860\nyou and\n\n571\n00:20:25.860 --> 00:20:29.740\nI can walk into a store or a business and you see it.\n\n572\n00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:34.290\nLike if you walk in, you know, to a well-run company right from the reception\n\n573\n00:20:34.290 --> 00:20:35.500\nist, you know,\n\n574\n00:20:35.500 --> 00:20:36.860\nyou see it, you can feel it.\n\n575\n00:20:36.860 --> 00:20:40.010\nThere's energy in the company, want to help you as opposed to you walk in and\n\n576\n00:20:40.010 --> 00:20:40.460\nthe first\n\n577\n00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:43.760\nthing you get is, you know, what do you hear for, you know, or something like\n\n578\n00:20:43.760 --> 00:20:44.140\nthat.\n\n579\n00:20:44.140 --> 00:20:46.180\nSo, and that's leaders, man.\n\n580\n00:20:46.180 --> 00:20:49.100\nIt's the leaders not doing a good job is why people are disengaged.\n\n581\n00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:55.500\nYou wrote that book and I know it was a fiction about that.\n\n582\n00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:56.700\nI've got the name of the company.\n\n583\n00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:57.700\nYeah, great one.\n\n584\n00:20:57.700 --> 00:20:59.380\nOh, happy face toy company.\n\n585\n00:20:59.380 --> 00:21:05.290\nBut that is the person caused disengagement because they didn't listen to the\n\n586\n00:21:05.290 --> 00:21:06.180\npeople.\n\n587\n00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:07.180\nThey didn't really care.\n\n588\n00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:11.920\nThey had preconceived notions as opposed to the next boss who walked in said,\n\n589\n00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:13.180\nwhat, why\n\n590\n00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:14.180\nwhy why does this happen?\n\n591\n00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:18.380\nHe said, well, we can't open the truck bay until X really, you know, and that\n\n592\n00:21:18.380 --> 00:21:18.740\nall of a\n\n593\n00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:20.860\nsudden they're engaged because it matters.\n\n594\n00:21:20.860 --> 00:21:24.420\nAbsolutely, you know, when'd you make the decision Jamie to become a banker?\n\n595\n00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:26.260\nOh, I barely made that decision.\n\n596\n00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:29.880\nYou know, like my dad was a stockbroker and like a lot of dads, he didn't want\n\n597\n00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:30.180\nme to\n\n598\n00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:31.580\ndo what he did.\n\n599\n00:21:31.580 --> 00:21:34.940\nBut, but, but remember New York was very financial stockbroker.\n\n600\n00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:36.900\nThey were very small business at the time.\n\n601\n00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:38.260\nSo I went to, and I love it.\n\n602\n00:21:38.260 --> 00:21:40.460\nYou know, I mean, every time you wake up, everything in the paper is important\n\n603\n00:21:40.460 --> 00:21:40.980\nto you.\n\n604\n00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:43.910\nYou know, I was, I was probably one of those New Yorkers who I don't think it\n\n605\n00:21:43.910 --> 00:21:44.460\nanymore.\n\n606\n00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:45.460\nLike, you know, all that matters is New York.\n\n607\n00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:46.460\nOf course not.\n\n608\n00:21:46.460 --> 00:21:50.000\nI mean, this is what a country we have and I love living in Chicago and, you\n\n609\n00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:50.500\nknow, if\n\n610\n00:21:50.500 --> 00:21:53.540\nyou travel around the world, there's some great cities out there.\n\n611\n00:21:53.540 --> 00:21:57.680\nBut I was focused kind of in the financial services, but my interest is not\n\n612\n00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:58.620\nbeing a banker\n\n613\n00:21:58.620 --> 00:21:59.620\nper se.\n\n614\n00:21:59.620 --> 00:22:03.350\nI actually wanted to join a team that was going to build a company and in\n\n615\n00:22:03.350 --> 00:22:04.020\nfinancial\n\n616\n00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:05.740\nservice, because that's what I knew.\n\n617\n00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:08.620\nAnd so the guy worked for the time.\n\n618\n00:22:08.620 --> 00:22:11.930\nHe had built Sheerson and he was always talking about building this and growing\n\n619\n00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:12.700\nthis and buying\n\n620\n00:22:12.700 --> 00:22:13.700\nthat.\n\n621\n00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:15.700\nAnd that, that was kind of appealed to me more than being a banker.\n\n622\n00:22:15.700 --> 00:22:16.700\nYeah.\n\n623\n00:22:16.700 --> 00:22:20.180\nI know from your background that you turned down jobs, actually Goldman Sachs\n\n624\n00:22:20.180 --> 00:22:20.740\nand Morgan\n\n625\n00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:23.260\nStanley and I'm sure other companies.\n\n626\n00:22:23.260 --> 00:22:27.560\nAnd started out as assistant for Sandy Weill, who was at American Express and\n\n627\n00:22:27.560 --> 00:22:28.140\nhad built\n\n628\n00:22:28.140 --> 00:22:29.140\nthat.\n\n629\n00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:32.060\nAnd you guys were partners for a long time.\n\n630\n00:22:32.060 --> 00:22:37.290\nYou work together all the way through to him running Citigroup and you being\n\n631\n00:22:37.290 --> 00:22:38.100\nthe CFO.\n\n632\n00:22:38.100 --> 00:22:39.460\nYou know, what was that journey like?\n\n633\n00:22:39.460 --> 00:22:40.460\nOh, it's unbelievable.\n\n634\n00:22:40.460 --> 00:22:44.670\nYou know, and back then he was a very down to earth and I was included in\n\n635\n00:22:44.670 --> 00:22:45.580\neverything.\n\n636\n00:22:45.580 --> 00:22:48.970\nI was assistant, but we, that little company, Commercial Credit bought all\n\n637\n00:22:48.970 --> 00:22:49.980\nthese other,\n\n638\n00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:50.980\nit just changed his name.\n\n639\n00:22:50.980 --> 00:22:54.380\nSo Primerica Smith Barney, Travelers, then find Merged with City.\n\n640\n00:22:54.380 --> 00:22:57.460\nI'd been the president for several years before Merged with City.\n\n641\n00:22:57.460 --> 00:22:58.940\nAnd then yes, you know, he fired me.\n\n642\n00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:01.140\nAnd, but boy, you learn a lot, man.\n\n643\n00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:06.380\nBuying companies, dealing with people, fallout systems, marketing.\n\n644\n00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:09.670\nAnd you know, we were very opportunistic, but we learned a lot and we formed a\n\n645\n00:23:09.670 --> 00:23:10.100\nteam of\n\n646\n00:23:10.100 --> 00:23:13.980\npeople, you know, Bob Lipp and Bob Lipp had put up there almost those Andy\n\n647\n00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:15.100\nPearson, unbelievable\n\n648\n00:23:15.100 --> 00:23:16.500\nexecutive in person.\n\n649\n00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:19.140\nAnd so you make great friends along the way and.\n\n650\n00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:21.820\nYeah, think about this, listeners.\n\n651\n00:23:21.820 --> 00:23:25.820\nJamie starts out as assistant at American Express, working for Sandy Weil.\n\n652\n00:23:25.820 --> 00:23:30.820\nThey take over Commercial Credit and Commercial Credit ends up running Cit\n\n653\n00:23:30.820 --> 00:23:31.580\nigroup.\n\n654\n00:23:31.580 --> 00:23:35.100\nI mean, that is one heck of a heck of a journey that you went on there.\n\n655\n00:23:35.100 --> 00:23:39.250\nNow Jamie, you did have a falling out with Sandy Weil, which was very well\n\n656\n00:23:39.250 --> 00:23:40.220\npublicized.\n\n657\n00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:42.420\nYou know, what did you learn from that experience?\n\n658\n00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:44.540\nAnd is there anything you do different as a leader?\n\n659\n00:23:44.540 --> 00:23:45.540\nYeah.\n\n660\n00:23:45.540 --> 00:23:50.430\nSo he did fire me and I think for the wrong reasons, but I called him up after\n\n661\n00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:50.900\nhe did\n\n662\n00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:52.540\nnot call me.\n\n663\n00:23:52.540 --> 00:23:56.220\nAnd I said, Sandy, it's the time we break bread and I hadn't had a job yet.\n\n664\n00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:57.220\nHe said, great.\n\n665\n00:23:57.220 --> 00:23:59.660\nAnd we sat down and he was like sweating a little bit and a little nervous.\n\n666\n00:23:59.660 --> 00:24:00.660\nThey don't be nervous.\n\n667\n00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:03.340\nWell, I'm only for two minutes about the past.\n\n668\n00:24:03.340 --> 00:24:05.420\nYou know, I think what you did was wrong for the company, which obviously it\n\n669\n00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:05.740\nturned out\n\n670\n00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:06.740\nto be right.\n\n671\n00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:08.460\nI said, but I hear the mistakes I made.\n\n672\n00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:12.660\nAnd I went through a bunch of them like like I had too much of I got too angry\n\n673\n00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:13.300\nat him when\n\n674\n00:24:13.300 --> 00:24:16.100\nI should have been focusing on what's the right thing to do for the company.\n\n675\n00:24:16.100 --> 00:24:19.080\nWhen he bothered me, I would skip a meeting he wanted me at, you know, just\n\n676\n00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:19.500\njust I did\n\n677\n00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:20.780\nexcited to want to be his presence.\n\n678\n00:24:20.780 --> 00:24:24.100\nBut that's not a mature response to something.\n\n679\n00:24:24.100 --> 00:24:26.020\nAnd so I went through a bunch of those things.\n\n680\n00:24:26.020 --> 00:24:30.540\nAnd at the end of the day, he said, thank you for all that.\n\n681\n00:24:30.540 --> 00:24:33.260\nBut he, I never had the relationship like you have with Andy Pearson.\n\n682\n00:24:33.260 --> 00:24:34.980\nAnd he was never a mentor.\n\n683\n00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:36.740\nThere are very few real mentors in life.\n\n684\n00:24:36.740 --> 00:24:39.020\nI think you learn a lot from watching other people.\n\n685\n00:24:39.020 --> 00:24:43.830\nYou know, Andy Pearson, I learned Andy Pearson mentioned me more than Sandy did\n\n686\n00:24:43.830 --> 00:24:44.020\n.\n\n687\n00:24:44.020 --> 00:24:47.460\nJust a little time to put his arm around you and make a joke or tell you what\n\n688\n00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:48.140\nyou should\n\n689\n00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:50.900\nhave done or just how we did things.\n\n690\n00:24:50.900 --> 00:24:53.900\nAnd so, you know, watching Sandy, I learned a lot of things to do.\n\n691\n00:24:53.900 --> 00:24:55.940\nI also learned some things I would never do.\n\n692\n00:24:55.940 --> 00:24:59.700\nLike I said, I watched from you watching, I watched learning lip.\n\n693\n00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:01.620\nSo some of the mentors I got was watching other people.\n\n694\n00:25:01.620 --> 00:25:05.170\nIt wasn't even that they were necessarily looking, let's help Jamie out a\n\n695\n00:25:05.170 --> 00:25:06.020\nlittle bit here,\n\n696\n00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:07.020\nyou know.\n\n697\n00:25:07.020 --> 00:25:11.290\nSo once you were let go and you had time to step back and reflect on where you\n\n698\n00:25:11.290 --> 00:25:11.780\nwanted\n\n699\n00:25:11.780 --> 00:25:12.780\nto go next.\n\n700\n00:25:12.780 --> 00:25:15.060\nDid you ever think about doing anything besides banking?\n\n701\n00:25:15.060 --> 00:25:16.060\nYeah.\n\n702\n00:25:16.060 --> 00:25:17.060\nYeah.\n\n703\n00:25:17.060 --> 00:25:18.540\nSo I was the internet boom.\n\n704\n00:25:18.540 --> 00:25:20.020\nI was offered several of those.\n\n705\n00:25:20.020 --> 00:25:22.780\nI went to see Jeff Bezos, who's still a friend at Amazon.\n\n706\n00:25:22.780 --> 00:25:24.260\nIt was a small company.\n\n707\n00:25:24.260 --> 00:25:27.180\nI just thought moving my family's to Seattle is kind of out of my league.\n\n708\n00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:30.770\nBut the one, I think you know, that really interesting is Home Depot of all\n\n709\n00:25:30.770 --> 00:25:31.460\ncompanies.\n\n710\n00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:35.480\nAnd I went to see Ken Langone and Arthur Blank and Bernie Marcus, it was a\n\n711\n00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:36.580\ngreat dinner.\n\n712\n00:25:36.580 --> 00:25:39.860\nAnd my first dinner with those guys, and I said to them, I said, guys, I have\n\n713\n00:25:39.860 --> 00:25:40.700\nto confess.\n\n714\n00:25:40.700 --> 00:25:43.500\nUntil you called me, I'd never been to a Home Depot.\n\n715\n00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:45.060\nAnd I love them.\n\n716\n00:25:45.060 --> 00:25:46.940\nI love the way they did stuff.\n\n717\n00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:48.740\nI told them I'd never been a merchant.\n\n718\n00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:51.820\nI run stores like running stores have a commonality to it.\n\n719\n00:25:51.820 --> 00:25:54.900\nLike you would know from your business.\n\n720\n00:25:54.900 --> 00:25:56.660\nThey said, we don't, we want your heart and your mind.\n\n721\n00:25:56.660 --> 00:25:58.420\nWe don't, we want your soul.\n\n722\n00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:00.180\nWe don't, we'll teach the rest of this stuff.\n\n723\n00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:02.180\nI said, you guys will pay for that education.\n\n724\n00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:03.540\nThey were going to make me president, not CEO.\n\n725\n00:26:03.540 --> 00:26:04.540\nI was fine with that.\n\n726\n00:26:04.540 --> 00:26:07.900\nHonestly, I would not have been able to be CEO from day one.\n\n727\n00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:11.800\nYou know, when you don't know, you know, something, it's hard to actually run\n\n728\n00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:12.060\nit.\n\n729\n00:26:12.060 --> 00:26:16.340\nSo I would have needed time, you know, under Arthur Tudor to do that.\n\n730\n00:26:16.340 --> 00:26:21.400\nThe only reason I picked bank one over Home Depot was I spent my whole life in\n\n731\n00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:22.220\nfinancial\n\n732\n00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:23.460\nservices.\n\n733\n00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.740\nAnd it was kind of like you spent your whole life playing golf.\n\n734\n00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:30.340\nAnd they, they wanted you to change the tennis and you're not quite sure you\n\n735\n00:26:30.340 --> 00:26:30.860\nwere suited\n\n736\n00:26:30.860 --> 00:26:31.860\nto it.\n\n737\n00:26:31.860 --> 00:26:34.820\nBut that was really the thing that has been my craft.\n\n738\n00:26:34.820 --> 00:26:36.300\nI knew the other companies.\n\n739\n00:26:36.300 --> 00:26:37.460\nI knew the technologies.\n\n740\n00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:41.360\nI knew the, I could walk the floors of a trading thing or a credit book and\n\n741\n00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:43.180\nunderstand it.\n\n742\n00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:46.490\nIt was hard for me to walk the floor of a Home Depot and understand merchand\n\n743\n00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:47.020\nising.\n\n744\n00:26:47.020 --> 00:26:50.920\nWhy they, why they put this up front of that in the back, you know, and supply\n\n745\n00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:51.980\nchain management\n\n746\n00:26:51.980 --> 00:26:52.980\nand all this.\n\n747\n00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:54.660\nSo it wasn't, but the guy, I love those guys.\n\n748\n00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:56.860\nYou know, that, that to me was it would have been a no brainer.\n\n749\n00:26:56.860 --> 00:26:58.300\nOh, they are unbelievable people.\n\n750\n00:26:58.300 --> 00:27:02.970\nYou know, so your first real CEO job was running bank one, which was a major\n\n751\n00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:04.420\nbank, but in major\n\n752\n00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:05.780\nneed of a turnaround.\n\n753\n00:27:05.780 --> 00:27:09.220\nWhat advice can you give to people when you're going into a turnaround\n\n754\n00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:09.980\nsituation?\n\n755\n00:27:09.980 --> 00:27:10.980\nYeah.\n\n756\n00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:13.020\nWell, they're tough, you know, and it's lonely.\n\n757\n00:27:13.020 --> 00:27:16.660\nAnd, and you kind of had that at young brands too, you know, when you, when you\n\n758\n00:27:16.660 --> 00:27:17.580\nstarted out,\n\n759\n00:27:17.580 --> 00:27:20.370\nyou know, you're running all these things, you, you would run one of them\n\n760\n00:27:20.370 --> 00:27:20.980\nbefore, but\n\n761\n00:27:20.980 --> 00:27:26.350\nall these people and they weren't performing well and the early problems and,\n\n762\n00:27:26.350 --> 00:27:27.180\nand you're\n\n763\n00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:30.500\nnot, you don't really have your own team because you didn't bring your team.\n\n764\n00:27:30.500 --> 00:27:31.580\nSo a bank one.\n\n765\n00:27:31.580 --> 00:27:35.900\nSo the first thing I was very patient, but not patient to make decisions.\n\n766\n00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:36.900\nI read everything.\n\n767\n00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:40.310\nI studied everything, but then I started meeting the people, get out in the\n\n768\n00:27:40.310 --> 00:27:41.300\nroad all the time,\n\n769\n00:27:41.300 --> 00:27:44.540\nsee the people report back, get all the information.\n\n770\n00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:48.100\nAnd as you do that, you start to learn people form a decision.\n\n771\n00:27:48.100 --> 00:27:50.620\nAnd then you had the tough decisions to do.\n\n772\n00:27:50.620 --> 00:27:53.260\nI was always direct with the board, right from everything.\n\n773\n00:27:53.260 --> 00:27:56.000\nI told them everything that we need to do this because it's good for the\n\n774\n00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:56.660\ncompany, the\n\n775\n00:27:56.660 --> 00:27:59.390\nclients, we need to invest this, we need to, you know, we had to lay off a lot\n\n776\n00:27:59.390 --> 00:27:59.980\nof people,\n\n777\n00:27:59.980 --> 00:28:00.980\nwhich is miserable.\n\n778\n00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:04.580\nBut I told them, you know, honestly guys, you caused this toe.\n\n779\n00:28:04.580 --> 00:28:06.780\nBut if we don't fix it, we'll never have a great company.\n\n780\n00:28:06.780 --> 00:28:09.020\nSo the board was completely supportive.\n\n781\n00:28:09.020 --> 00:28:14.540\nYou know, as you know, not all the management team was, there's a lot of static\n\n782\n00:28:14.540 --> 00:28:15.220\nand a lot\n\n783\n00:28:15.220 --> 00:28:16.220\nof don't want to change.\n\n784\n00:28:16.220 --> 00:28:18.140\nAnd Jimmy doesn't know what he's doing.\n\n785\n00:28:18.140 --> 00:28:22.930\nAnd, you know, as you have to be pretty forceful and convincing, while you push\n\n786\n00:28:22.930 --> 00:28:23.620\n, you also try\n\n787\n00:28:23.620 --> 00:28:26.820\nto get a lot of buy-in, you know, but at one point you make the changes you got\n\n788\n00:28:26.820 --> 00:28:27.100\nto make\n\n789\n00:28:27.100 --> 00:28:28.820\nand bring in some new blood.\n\n790\n00:28:28.820 --> 00:28:31.140\nAnd then once you got a team, it's a whole different thing.\n\n791\n00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:33.900\nAnd if you were going to turn around with a team of people, it's very different\n\n792\n00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:34.100\nthan\n\n793\n00:28:34.100 --> 00:28:35.860\ngoing by yourself.\n\n794\n00:28:35.860 --> 00:28:38.680\nAnd if you went over with a team of people, I'd say give the other manager\n\n795\n00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:39.380\ntheir chance\n\n796\n00:28:39.380 --> 00:28:40.380\ntoo.\n\n797\n00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:41.980\nThey have to know you're going to give them a full chance.\n\n798\n00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:45.620\nOtherwise, you can demoralize the whole company and that'll backfire too.\n\n799\n00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:48.580\nWell, Bank One was a remarkable success story.\n\n800\n00:28:48.580 --> 00:28:55.340\nAnd then JP Morgan Chase acquired Bank One and you quickly became CEO there.\n\n801\n00:28:55.340 --> 00:28:59.830\nWhat changed in the way you do businesses, you took on a bank that was so much\n\n802\n00:28:59.830 --> 00:29:00.580\nbigger.\n\n803\n00:29:00.580 --> 00:29:04.040\nYou know, you know, Bank One certainly wasn't small, but it wasn't JP Morgan\n\n804\n00:29:04.040 --> 00:29:04.580\nChase.\n\n805\n00:29:04.580 --> 00:29:07.580\nHow did you adapt to such a big global enterprise?\n\n806\n00:29:07.580 --> 00:29:09.420\nSo, you know, honestly, nothing changed, David.\n\n807\n00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:12.650\nI did like these business reviews, the travels, the road trips, they just\n\n808\n00:29:12.650 --> 00:29:13.500\nincluded India and\n\n809\n00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:15.860\nChina and, you know, more businesses.\n\n810\n00:29:15.860 --> 00:29:20.860\nI did the same thing.\n\n811\n00:29:20.860 --> 00:29:22.460\nI read a lot in the weekends.\n\n812\n00:29:22.460 --> 00:29:23.740\nSo, I didn't really change anything.\n\n813\n00:29:23.740 --> 00:29:27.220\nI did have a management team right from the start.\n\n814\n00:29:27.220 --> 00:29:28.540\nI had the one I had at Bank One.\n\n815\n00:29:28.540 --> 00:29:31.420\nI knew a lot of people JP Morgan Chase.\n\n816\n00:29:31.420 --> 00:29:34.640\nAnd Bill Harris and I did something which I think is a really smart thing to do\n\n817\n00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:34.860\nfor\n\n818\n00:29:34.860 --> 00:29:36.060\nanyone who does a merger.\n\n819\n00:29:36.060 --> 00:29:37.060\nAnd you were part of this.\n\n820\n00:29:37.060 --> 00:29:38.060\nAnd remember, it was ordained.\n\n821\n00:29:38.060 --> 00:29:39.060\nI was going to come to CEO.\n\n822\n00:29:39.060 --> 00:29:40.060\nIt was publicly announced.\n\n823\n00:29:40.060 --> 00:29:42.340\nIt was going to take two years.\n\n824\n00:29:42.340 --> 00:29:43.340\nBut there was no noise.\n\n825\n00:29:43.340 --> 00:29:45.060\nThere's no politics around.\n\n826\n00:29:45.060 --> 00:29:48.670\nBill Harris and I, at the same time we announced the deal, we announced the\n\n827\n00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:49.780\nmanagement team.\n\n828\n00:29:49.780 --> 00:29:51.340\nAnd it was a rational management team.\n\n829\n00:29:51.340 --> 00:29:54.860\nIt wasn't kind of bastardized by tons of political decisions.\n\n830\n00:29:54.860 --> 00:29:57.530\nAnd we tried to make the best people decisions and there were people from both\n\n831\n00:29:57.530 --> 00:29:58.140\ncompanies.\n\n832\n00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:00.820\nAnd then we just started the relentless process.\n\n833\n00:30:00.820 --> 00:30:02.580\nAnd again, you do get the resistance.\n\n834\n00:30:02.580 --> 00:30:03.580\nYou get the people.\n\n835\n00:30:03.580 --> 00:30:04.580\nWe don't do it that way here.\n\n836\n00:30:04.580 --> 00:30:06.180\nAnd I always say the same thing.\n\n837\n00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:07.940\nIt's not how you do it or don't.\n\n838\n00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:10.060\nWhat's the right way to do it for the company, the client?\n\n839\n00:30:10.060 --> 00:30:11.060\nGreat.\n\n840\n00:30:11.060 --> 00:30:14.060\nYou know, you have enormous responsibility running a global company.\n\n841\n00:30:14.060 --> 00:30:16.380\nThe biggest financial institution in the world.\n\n842\n00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:19.300\nHow do you even possibly go through prioritization?\n\n843\n00:30:19.300 --> 00:30:21.300\nHow do you do it?\n\n844\n00:30:21.300 --> 00:30:23.660\nYeah, I don't know.\n\n845\n00:30:23.660 --> 00:30:25.220\nI call the ARPRA and architecture.\n\n846\n00:30:25.220 --> 00:30:26.540\nYou know, I have an operating committee.\n\n847\n00:30:26.540 --> 00:30:27.540\nWe meet every week.\n\n848\n00:30:27.540 --> 00:30:28.540\nWe've got an agenda every month.\n\n849\n00:30:28.540 --> 00:30:31.140\nWe spend a lot of time on the agenda set ahead of time.\n\n850\n00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:32.460\nWe have business reviews all the time.\n\n851\n00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:34.860\nI've got pre-scheduled road trips and stuff like that.\n\n852\n00:30:34.860 --> 00:30:38.180\nBut that actually takes 35% of my time.\n\n853\n00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:41.300\nMy door is literally open to white space half the time.\n\n854\n00:30:41.300 --> 00:30:42.660\nAnd we're always going through lists.\n\n855\n00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:43.660\nI have better leaders now.\n\n856\n00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:45.660\nWe know what it allows us to do more.\n\n857\n00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:46.660\nYeah.\n\n858\n00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:47.900\nI do less myself.\n\n859\n00:30:47.900 --> 00:30:49.180\nWe spend more time in innovation.\n\n860\n00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:52.780\nWe spend more time looking at X. We spend more time with clients.\n\n861\n00:30:52.780 --> 00:30:56.620\nBut we are very, very disciplined, diligent, follow-up list.\n\n862\n00:30:56.620 --> 00:30:58.020\nJust like you did, by the way.\n\n863\n00:30:58.020 --> 00:31:01.940\nAnd you know, you did it for three different brands.\n\n864\n00:31:01.940 --> 00:31:04.300\nBut you know, if you edit a fourth, you just edit it right in.\n\n865\n00:31:04.300 --> 00:31:06.700\nYou know, one of the things I always enjoyed\n\n866\n00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:10.140\nseed with you is that you carried with this 8 by 10 sheet\n\n867\n00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:12.820\nof paper that you folded in half and you put it\n\n868\n00:31:12.820 --> 00:31:15.580\nin your suit pocket or blazer pocket.\n\n869\n00:31:15.580 --> 00:31:16.980\nTell me about that.\n\n870\n00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:18.860\nTell our listeners about that.\n\n871\n00:31:18.860 --> 00:31:20.540\nPeople find hard to believe.\n\n872\n00:31:20.540 --> 00:31:23.860\nI return every email on every phone call almost every day.\n\n873\n00:31:23.860 --> 00:31:27.180\nAnd everything goes, if I owe you something,\n\n874\n00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:30.780\nI write that list, Novak-X.\n\n875\n00:31:30.780 --> 00:31:33.460\nIf I need to call you or if I ask you for something,\n\n876\n00:31:33.460 --> 00:31:35.420\nit says Novak owes me why.\n\n877\n00:31:35.420 --> 00:31:38.060\nIf I need to make a date, it goes on that sheet.\n\n878\n00:31:38.060 --> 00:31:40.220\nAnd I also have a thing called Think About.\n\n879\n00:31:40.220 --> 00:31:41.820\nI need to think about it.\n\n880\n00:31:41.820 --> 00:31:43.980\nI just, but some I do when I go home and I,\n\n881\n00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:45.860\nbut that's just one, and I do still carry that.\n\n882\n00:31:45.860 --> 00:31:47.620\nThat's my kind of immediate,\n\n883\n00:31:47.620 --> 00:31:50.660\nif what do I got to get done, Novak, an hour in the car,\n\n884\n00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:51.820\nthat I take out that list.\n\n885\n00:31:51.820 --> 00:31:53.860\nI have, there's another list for every business,\n\n886\n00:31:53.860 --> 00:31:56.980\nwhich is much more detailed and much more strategic.\n\n887\n00:31:56.980 --> 00:31:58.860\n- What I always loved, Jamie, was watching that.\n\n888\n00:31:58.860 --> 00:32:02.260\nWhen you got something done, somebody owed you something\n\n889\n00:32:02.260 --> 00:32:06.100\nand you took out your pin and you didn't just cross through it.\n\n890\n00:32:06.100 --> 00:32:07.980\nYou obliterated it, you know?\n\n891\n00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:11.020\nIt's like, but you've got a real high sense of urgency\n\n892\n00:32:11.020 --> 00:32:13.020\nand make it happen attitude.\n\n893\n00:32:13.020 --> 00:32:15.660\n- So that obliteration, I never realized that\n\n894\n00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:16.820\nuntil you mentioned that.\n\n895\n00:32:16.820 --> 00:32:20.740\nAnd now I obliterated purposely with happiness.\n\n896\n00:32:20.740 --> 00:32:22.660\n- You do it.\n\n897\n00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:25.540\nOne of the things I always enjoyed watching you\n\n898\n00:32:25.540 --> 00:32:28.580\nis that you didn't really talk strategy that much,\n\n899\n00:32:28.580 --> 00:32:31.100\nbut you got to the end game, but you got there\n\n900\n00:32:31.100 --> 00:32:33.780\nby basically seeing how the world was moving every day\n\n901\n00:32:33.780 --> 00:32:36.900\nversus having a five year strategic plan or whatever.\n\n902\n00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:39.740\nTalk about how you manage the whole strategic process.\n\n903\n00:32:39.740 --> 00:32:42.100\n- Yeah, so we're gonna have a strategic offside.\n\n904\n00:32:42.100 --> 00:32:44.700\nWe do it every year, three days, really strategic.\n\n905\n00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:46.820\nAnd we bring that back to the board.\n\n906\n00:32:46.820 --> 00:32:48.380\nBut I always call it a strategic read.\n\n907\n00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:50.660\nLike a lot of people spend a lot of time\n\n908\n00:32:50.660 --> 00:32:55.660\non five year, 10 year NPVs and how you want it.\n\n909\n00:32:55.660 --> 00:32:58.900\nAnd I'm not against it, but I always tell you,\n\n910\n00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:00.620\nsure things are table stakes.\n\n911\n00:33:00.620 --> 00:33:02.860\nLike you're kidding yourself if you think\n\n912\n00:33:02.860 --> 00:33:05.340\nyou shouldn't build a digital supply system.\n\n913\n00:33:05.340 --> 00:33:07.540\nAnd you're kidding yourself if you shouldn't\n\n914\n00:33:07.540 --> 00:33:09.420\nget good service and hot food in the restaurant.\n\n915\n00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:10.300\nYou're kidding yourself.\n\n916\n00:33:10.300 --> 00:33:13.540\nAnd that is companies do a terrible job\n\n917\n00:33:13.540 --> 00:33:14.820\nsometimes the data execution.\n\n918\n00:33:14.820 --> 00:33:17.380\nSo you and I would both say, first rate execution\n\n919\n00:33:17.380 --> 00:33:20.060\nbeats first rate strategy with second rate execution.\n\n920\n00:33:20.060 --> 00:33:22.100\nAnd we do do the strategy stuff.\n\n921\n00:33:22.100 --> 00:33:24.980\nSo we always think in what country, what business,\n\n922\n00:33:24.980 --> 00:33:26.860\nwhat technology you're gonna do to payment systems,\n\n923\n00:33:26.860 --> 00:33:29.980\nwhat would Amazon do it that became a bank.\n\n924\n00:33:29.980 --> 00:33:31.100\nSo we actually do do it.\n\n925\n00:33:31.100 --> 00:33:33.060\nBut we just don't let people confuse\n\n926\n00:33:33.060 --> 00:33:34.580\nevery conversation with it.\n\n927\n00:33:34.580 --> 00:33:36.420\nAnd we try to separate out a little bit\n\n928\n00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:37.980\nand have separate meetings on it.\n\n929\n00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:39.620\nSo, otherwise, as you know, what happens is\n\n930\n00:33:39.620 --> 00:33:41.460\npeople start to BS in meetings.\n\n931\n00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:44.020\nWell, our strategy is bricks and clicks.\n\n932\n00:33:44.020 --> 00:33:46.140\nAnd yeah, well, how many people use the branch?\n\n933\n00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:47.020\nHow would you, how will we do it?\n\n934\n00:33:47.020 --> 00:33:47.860\nWhat are ours?\n\n935\n00:33:47.860 --> 00:33:48.700\nWhat are the competitors hours?\n\n936\n00:33:48.700 --> 00:33:49.540\nWhat are the services?\n\n937\n00:33:49.540 --> 00:33:50.380\nHow much advice we give them?\n\n938\n00:33:50.380 --> 00:33:52.300\nHow can we not put more advisors in there?\n\n939\n00:33:52.300 --> 00:33:54.380\nAnd then they just, because very often strategy\n\n940\n00:33:54.380 --> 00:33:57.180\nbecomes excuse is why I'm very careful\n\n941\n00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:58.900\nabout how you use it at a company.\n\n942\n00:33:58.900 --> 00:34:00.180\n- Yeah, great, great.\n\n943\n00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:02.620\nYou know, what advice can you give to people\n\n944\n00:34:02.620 --> 00:34:05.300\nwho wanna start their own business?\n\n945\n00:34:05.300 --> 00:34:06.940\nBe entrepreneurs.\n\n946\n00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:08.740\n- Yeah, we have a lot of listeners like that.\n\n947\n00:34:08.740 --> 00:34:10.820\n- Yeah, I, you know, honestly, you know,\n\n948\n00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:13.340\nat a respect for them, I've never been,\n\n949\n00:34:13.340 --> 00:34:15.380\nyou started a business of been entrepreneurs,\n\n950\n00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:17.020\nso I have enormous respect for it.\n\n951\n00:34:17.020 --> 00:34:19.380\nAnd I think it's hard because an entrepreneur,\n\n952\n00:34:19.380 --> 00:34:20.660\nif you're open a restaurant,\n\n953\n00:34:20.660 --> 00:34:23.300\nyou also have to hire people, get uniforms, buy food,\n\n954\n00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:26.780\nget insurance, sign the lease, do payroll.\n\n955\n00:34:26.780 --> 00:34:28.540\nYou know, so it's all of a sudden you're the CEO,\n\n956\n00:34:28.540 --> 00:34:30.860\nbut you're doing 50 things yourself.\n\n957\n00:34:30.860 --> 00:34:33.060\nSo I guess know what you're doing,\n\n958\n00:34:33.060 --> 00:34:36.180\nlook what other people do, look at the competition,\n\n959\n00:34:36.180 --> 00:34:38.540\nmake sure you understand that all these things matter.\n\n960\n00:34:38.540 --> 00:34:41.180\nSo sometimes businesses fail because they're not paying\n\n961\n00:34:41.180 --> 00:34:43.380\nattention to a thing that they didn't think would matter,\n\n962\n00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:44.940\nbut it's important, like, you know,\n\n963\n00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:46.580\nif a restaurant doesn't serve lunches\n\n964\n00:34:46.580 --> 00:34:49.060\n'cause they don't have lunch on Saturdays,\n\n965\n00:34:49.060 --> 00:34:51.020\nthat may be the difference between winning or losing.\n\n966\n00:34:51.020 --> 00:34:53.020\nSo it's hard.\n\n967\n00:34:53.020 --> 00:34:54.980\nWe do a lot of entrepreneurs,\n\n968\n00:34:54.980 --> 00:34:57.140\nand honestly, I always get pumped up when I say them.\n\n969\n00:34:57.140 --> 00:34:59.700\n- If you could just kind of just leave our listeners\n\n970\n00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:02.300\nwith three things, you know, three things\n\n971\n00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:05.300\nyou'd like them to remember from this conversation,\n\n972\n00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:06.140\nwhat would it be?\n\n973\n00:35:06.140 --> 00:35:10.580\n- America is an exceptional place,\n\n974\n00:35:10.580 --> 00:35:12.780\nand let's focus on fixing our problems.\n\n975\n00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:16.100\nWork hard, take care of your mind,\n\n976\n00:35:16.100 --> 00:35:17.100\nyour body, your spirit, your soul,\n\n977\n00:35:17.100 --> 00:35:19.060\nwork hard, spend your life learning,\n\n978\n00:35:19.060 --> 00:35:19.900\nand take care of your mind,\n\n979\n00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:21.420\nyour body, your soul, it's your job,\n\n980\n00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:22.980\nand it'll give you a better life.\n\n981\n00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:23.820\n- Great.\n\n982\n00:35:23.820 --> 00:35:24.900\nJamie, you're the best.\n\n983\n00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:25.740\nThank you very much.\n\n984\n00:35:25.740 --> 00:35:26.580\nI appreciate it.\n\n985\n00:35:26.580 --> 00:35:27.500\n- Hey, thank you, I enjoyed it.\n\n986\n00:35:27.500 --> 00:35:28.340\nYeah, appreciate it.\n\n987\n00:35:28.340 --> 00:35:29.340\nI'll talk to you soon.\n\n988\n00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:31.580\n(silence)\n\n989\n00:35:31.580 --> 00:35:39.220\n- Well, when you listen to Jamie Diamond,\n\n990\n00:35:39.220 --> 00:35:42.100\nyou can see why he's such a standout leader.\n\n991\n00:35:42.100 --> 00:35:44.140\nBut one thing that always stuck with me\n\n992\n00:35:44.140 --> 00:35:46.180\nis that folded up sheet of paper,\n\n993\n00:35:46.180 --> 00:35:48.020\nhe keeps with him to write down the issues\n\n994\n00:35:48.020 --> 00:35:50.380\nhe comes across and needs to deal with.\n\n995\n00:35:50.380 --> 00:35:52.100\nThat's really incredible, isn't it?\n\n996\n00:35:52.100 --> 00:35:55.940\nHe knows uncovering a problem is only the beginning.\n\n997\n00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:57.380\nGreat leaders have a plan\n\n998\n00:35:57.380 --> 00:35:59.780\nso they can follow through and deal with it.\n\n999\n00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:02.260\nI really admire that.\n\n1000\n00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:05.500\nSo now it's time for a little coaching.\n\n1001\n00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:09.300\nSo this week, as part of your weekly personal development plan,\n\n1002\n00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:12.100\nI want you to try Jamie's approach for yourself.\n\n1003\n00:36:12.100 --> 00:36:15.340\nFold up a sheet of paper and tuck it in your coat pocket,\n\n1004\n00:36:15.340 --> 00:36:19.460\nyour purse, heck, your PJs if you're working from home.\n\n1005\n00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:22.860\nKeep it handy and jot down the issues you spot.\n\n1006\n00:36:22.860 --> 00:36:25.340\nI know it might be tempting to use an app,\n\n1007\n00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:27.940\nbut I think there's something kind of magical\n\n1008\n00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:31.860\nabout the old fashioned physical piece of paper.\n\n1009\n00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:34.140\nAnd hey, when you get something resolved,\n\n1010\n00:36:34.140 --> 00:36:35.620\nmake sure you scribble through it\n\n1011\n00:36:35.620 --> 00:36:38.620\nwith the same kind of intensity that Jamie does.\n\n1012\n00:36:38.620 --> 00:36:39.900\nYou're going to love it,\n\n1013\n00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:43.140\nand man, your team is really going to respect\n\n1014\n00:36:43.140 --> 00:36:45.220\nthe follow through that you have.\n\n1015\n00:36:45.220 --> 00:36:46.980\nSo do you wanna know how leaders lead?\n\n1016\n00:36:46.980 --> 00:36:49.020\nWhat we learned today is that great leaders\n\n1017\n00:36:49.020 --> 00:36:51.660\nalways have a plan to deal with problems.\n\n1018\n00:36:51.660 --> 00:36:54.140\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode\n\n1019\n00:36:54.140 --> 00:36:57.580\nof How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in\n\n1020\n00:36:57.580 --> 00:37:00.740\nwhile I interview some of the very best leaders in the world.\n\n1021\n00:37:00.740 --> 00:37:03.100\nI make it a point to give you something simple\n\n1022\n00:37:03.100 --> 00:37:06.300\non each episode that you can apply to your business\n\n1023\n00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:09.500\nso that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1024\n00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:11.900\n(silence)\n\n1025\n00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:13.900\n(silence)\n\n1026\n00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:15.900\n(silence)\n\n1027\n00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:17.900\n(silence)\n\n1028\n00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:39.900\n(silence)","

David Novak 0:03

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Jamie Dimon chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase. Now, if you haven't already heard part one of this conversation, check the feed and start with episode 14. instead. It's a masterclass in dealing with problems by preparing for them ahead of time. But you know, some problems aren't possibilities way off into the future. They're right here right now. And in part two, we get into how Jamie deals with those day to day issues. And there's a real humility and how he does it. Jamie is always listening. He's always learning. He genuinely wants to know the issues on the ground at his organization. But he doesn't stop there. He actually follows through so the problems he uncovers get resolved. Imagine that. I mean, it's rare to find a leader who is willing to listen issues, but a leader who follows up and actually fixes those issues. That's the stuff of legend. And Jamie Dimon is a legend, but it doesn't have to be you just need a plan. And that's the big takeaway in this conversation with Jamie always have a plan to deal with problems. So here's part two of my conversation with my good friend hand soon to be yours. Jamie Dimon.

Could you tell us about your upbringing and, and how it shaped who you are today?

Jamie Dimon 1:44

Yeah. So David first is thrilled to be here. As you know, the respect I have for you is enormous. And I'm looking forward to the conversation. So look, I grew up in Jackson Heights, Queens, you know, my grandparents were immigrants. You know, my parents did my mother find my mother went to college the same time I went to college, he was a stockbroker. So I grew up kind of just in financial services. But you know, there was a strong core, you know, there was always do the right thing. Stand by people do the right thing and tell the truth. Do your best be proud, be be a productive citizen, you know, it's as your constant refrain that way. And two brothers one was a twin who I'm still very close to both and so it was your basic kind of upbringing? Yeah.

David Novak 2:24

Did you have any rivalry with your twin brother?

Jamie Dimon 2:28

Yeah, we had, we were part of a little gang. We called the lightning squad. I mean, I don't even remember this until you asked that. I was a general and he was like the, you know, the, the lieutenant or something like that. We were like, 15, we were the little kids was a big kid gang. And we, you know, we would fight to I mean, there's physical fire, stuff like that. But it's very fun. My brother is an educator. He's written books, teaches, loves the Alexander Technique. So totally different than me. But if you met him, the core person, the heart, the soul, the more morality Oh, that's pretty much the same. And my older brother is a physio he's not that much. A year and a half old as a physicist, PhD, MIT University Chicago. IBM labs, Niels Bohr Institute, like real theoretical particle physicist, but a same thing. I think moral morality, the same core. And, you know, he went the science route. But I was always interested in science, too. And so

David Novak 3:25

sounds like you're the dummy in the family, Jane. Well, I know you went to Harvard. And did you have a teacher there that really impacted you? And you remember in a, in a really fun way?

Jamie Dimon 3:38

Yeah. So Harvard business school, I went to college and stuff like that. You know, they were fabulous teachers there. And one of the things that Harvard Business School does that people don't talk about, is they really rate the teachers. If you can't teach the kids, you are not there for very long. And so the guy had a finance professor Jay light, who became the dean, who's an exceptional human being, in fact, I think I'm gonna see him in a week or so. There's a guy who was his first year there called Joe Bader, Rocco. And he was and we tortured him because his first year and these kids can be pretty tough. But he went on to become an assistant dean, I still see him. He's one of those guys with a big hard and big Saul. He, you know, he's written several books by now. So I said, those are the two most moving, and I still talk to him.

David Novak 4:20

But you know, one of our great mentors that we shared is great and late, Andy Pearson, the past president of PepsiCo, and he taught at Harvard Business School, and I remember him telling me that he got his 360 degree feedback from the students and he ranked worse than any professor and then he made it an objective that he was going to be the best professor. And the next year, how important do you think it is to really get good feedback?

Jamie Dimon 4:44

Oh, it's critical. And but just so you mentioned Andy Pearson Because you and I think both think the same. He's one of the best I've ever seen. But both in business because you you know that he just he was tough minded. You know, he wasn't always is where the fact get it done. Do the follow up. up, do the analysis, there was no BS about it, but was always very open. But his people skills, you know, I mean, I love I didn't know you, I knew him. But I mean, he, I've just been embracing you and put his arm around, it wasn't threatened by you know, here you are, you're this young, strong, tough guy, he's obviously getting older. But he you know, he bonded made you partners right away. And I mean, he taught both of us a tremendous amount. And I was I learned more from him than just about anybody else. And so and you look, you learn from everybody learn from you, like you always do the recognition thing, you know, and, well, I grew up in the world that you're almost afraid of getting recognition for, because they might want to get paid too much, or might go to their head or, and that's all dead wrong. And the other thing I should say about recognition, which is, I don't know if you would say it this way. But recognition means you don't always know it means you have humility, it means you're telling the other person, thank you for your contribution, it means a whole other set of things that a lot of leaders don't like to do.

David Novak 5:59

Well, you Your voice has been very good at giving credit to people who really perform in an extraordinary way. How do you decide when you really want to give that personal attaboy

Jamie Dimon 6:08

David, I wasn't good at it years ago to tell the truth. And I was watching you and you know, Bob lip and watching Bob lip calling people at the end of the year. I mean, I remember, you may not know Bob, we used to call people down to the pick up the top 30 branch managers and spend all week talking to him. What do you learn? How can you just oh, well, what can we teach other people taking the time to do that? And you would do the same thing? Like, I don't know if your listeners know this. But if you used to go to David Novak's office, he would put every 30 got words got pictures, and then he went to the ceiling. You couldn't cover? I assume they're still there. And it's all the time now. It's publicly it's when they do something above and beyond you send them a note. You know, there we had a couple of guys who worked around the weekend and the dealers. I mean, literally, literally for 72 hours, I call them up say thank you, you know, going beyond the call dude, I was I was on an airplane. And yet, you know, it goes a long way. They they both they all sent emails to their boys saying, Jesus Jamie, you call me that they thanks for you know, I spend the whole week on this one thing.

David Novak 7:10

It's amazing when you're the leader like you are when you just are nice, and you're considerate of other people's how much credit you get for being that way, you know, yeah, it Do you think that's because leaders take themselves too seriously, or, or just they don't do those kinds of things on average.

Jamie Dimon 7:26

So I think here's the what I think is just I've learned over time, we all learn to be very disciplined, you know, so I'm a separate leadership and management a little bit. They're not really separable. But like in management, and it's follow up, get it done. It's analytics, get the buy room, as far as getting the road is put in the hours, it's learn, learn, learn, it doesn't necessarily make you great leader, because the great leader is someone that someone wants to follow. So I always asked myself a question now would I want to work for that person. And you want to work for people that you trust, that you respect, that have your best interests in mind, and they're gonna tell you the truth, that's feedback, good or bad. And to do those things as humility, it those people have to say, Hey, David, David knows more about me about the bridge than I do. So I go on the road with him. I know, I may be his boss, but I can't I can't be as good as he is that stuff he's doing. And so, you know, leadership is a lot more about heart and humility and learning and sharing than it is about how smart you are, or follow up or detail analytics.

David Novak 8:24

You know, you said one thing that's very important, which will all those were good points, but that the notion that others know that you have their best interests in mind, and you really, you really do care about them. What do you think as a leader is the best way to really demonstrate that to others.

Jamie Dimon 8:40

So I think when you say your best interest in mind, so it doesn't mean you it's not you sponsor them to do get next job when they don't deserve it is that that you that you know, you're gonna give them the best shot, you know, you're gonna give honest feedback, you know, you want them to succeed. So it's like a lot of these jobs, you know, when you put people in a job you want you do want them to succeed, you may have to remove them one day, because they're holding back the company, something like that. But even in that case, you gave them a chance, which means honestly, back, even that case, and the organization sees that, that you when you made a tough decision, it was only after really doing it thoughtfully, and you're doing the right thing, and you're taking the person out of second base, because they have the second best second baseman, not because they're not your goon by your friend.

David Novak 9:23

But I you know, I also think what you're really saying here is that people will care more about you once they know you care about them.

Jamie Dimon 9:29

Yeah, absolutely. They'll tell you, they'll tell you the truth and they want to tell you the truth. They want to be part of the team. They want to give it they'll give it their best, they'll break the they'll break their back for you if they know you're you're trying to coach a quarterback and you're just one player on the team.

David Novak 9:42

Yeah, you know, my daughter wanted me to ask you this when so I'm gonna gotta do that. She was like, What advice can you give aspiring leaders, you know, trying to climb up the ranks and make their mark in business.

Jamie Dimon 9:55

You know, earn it every day. Learn, learn, learn, you're gonna get care When you're asked and sometimes the most important thing, what happens to you is how you deal with that. And as I told you, it's going to happen. And you know, you got to you it's okay to cry. It's okay to moan. It's okay to hide for a week or two. But event you got to brush yourself off, get off, what do you learn from it and move on. Work work with and for people you respect, because you'll enjoy every day. And usually that will lead you to better places, they will have your back, I'll help you, including giving the tough feedback or not giving the promotion you don't deserve. You and I both know, giving people promotional deserve is guaranteed road to failure. Guaranteed. And you've really hurt the person because, you know, sometimes it's hard to come back from that so and learn learn learn you spend I don't know, we you were you ran yum brands, you've probably spent 70 80% of time learning what's going on here? What's the competition doing? What's going on in China? Which our product menu? How come this company is doing a better job than we are? You know, that constant stuff that? If you don't do you won't be a good leader?

David Novak 10:57

Yeah, absolutely. You know, when do you know when you're coming up? When do you know it's time to step up from being an individual contributor to being a manager? When do you when do you? How do you really gauge that as you're, as you're climbing the ladder?

Jamie Dimon 11:11

How do you gauge it personally, how do you gauge and somebody else is both, you know, it's very, very funny thing, because I don't know about you, but we don't teach people that you just kind of given all this on your manager, and you're on your own. And, you know, there's always an assumption that you're gonna be good at it. But I mentioned follow up was detail teller, and a lot of people aren't good at it. And we didn't get many trainees. So sometimes the company is to blame. But you I think you'll know it because you feel like you want to be part of a winning team. And you and I know the joy of being part of a team, it did something about it, that is unbelievable. Could be a sports team, it could be a, it could be a restaurant store, it could be you know, an analytics team or m&a deal team. But man, when you that team wins, it feels great. And, and you you like that more? Some people want to be individual contributor whole life, they really like research or detail or analytics or, or, you know, Hunter hunters, they want to go out and bring in the big deal for the rest of you. And you know, and so it's not bad to not want to be an individual contributor or to be one.

David Novak 12:11

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I know one of the things watching you in action is that one of the things that really invigorated you is when you went out in the field and met with the frontline and, you know, talk to the clerks and, you know, went to the call centers. You know, what, why did you do that in the first place? And what did you really get out of it? What did you see your role as a leader by doing it?

Jamie Dimon 12:30

We do these bus trips, and we have tellers we go to call centers, we, we put them on the bus, we give tellers and loan on the branch manager, we can have a beer and immunity. And we tell them tell us what we're doing right and wrong. And we make it fun. But we keep a really detailed list about what we're doing. You do it to learn. You do it to say thank you. You do. It is fun, make it fun, man, you got to make work fun. And it's hard enough as it is. And people sometimes say to me, that's great. You're showing the flag, I tell them no, I'm not just showing the flag showing up is okay. But let's see what they have to say. And fixing it. That's respect. Showing up itself is a little bit of respect. But fixing it is a lot of respect. And acknowledgement is big, powerful companies doing some stupid.

David Novak 13:11

Yeah, I remember when you went to Columbus to the call center. And you know, you saw some bureaucracy. And the next, you know, the next week, you came back and you changed all those things, like within two weeks, you know, and I just traveled all around the country at Bank, one with a new sheriff was in town. How much of a role do you think you have just to shock the system as a leader like that,

Jamie Dimon 13:34

I think you got to be kind of relentless with that. And you and I know the big companies are always slowing down and always getting more bureaucratic. So and I have a lot of great leaders now. So I don't have to do it for them. But I still do it. I return every phone call every email. If I see someone's really dumb, I make sure it gets fixed. I tell them to today. Don't Don't, don't start this thing. And we'll get we'll get to it when it's on my list. So, you know, every now and then I still just go do it today. And people smile. They say he's still Jamie Oh, he's doing but as you know, once you do have very good leaders, you got to let them do a toe,

David Novak 14:05

you've got all this power as a CEO and you got this great reputation, you know, so, you know, how do you really get the truth from people? I mean, how do you know you're getting a real skinny versus people blowing smoke up there? You know what,

Jamie Dimon 14:19

you're on that bus trip? You know, you're having a beer with them, you go to them, you go to the bars with these people, you're I would turn every email every phone call. People know it and like even I do a town hall I do a ton of administrative assistance. I don't just stand up there for now and answer their questions. The ones I can't answer. And they ask a lot of great questions. I respond an email to them, you know, a week or two later say here's the 60 I couldn't answer. And here's the answer and we're changing some of them. And so people know you actually mean it. You want to know they also have never seen retaliation for someone bringing up something if it was stupid. So sometimes people you've been in a town so really obnoxious, stupid question. And I always try to respectfully, you know, it will humor or Okay, that's a good point or I honestly we put that in the web eight times already. And please read we already did. You know, but if you get mad, you know, you're you're gonna people know. And so you've seen it a time when people respond in a way, the next time you aren't going to bring it up. It's like a, it's like an abused kid, you know, your dad hits you, every time you complain, you're not going to complain.

David Novak 15:22

You got to make yourself open and vulnerable. And you know, one of the things I heard when I would talk to the people who had met you, in fact, I actually was in Florida, I went to a JP Morgan branch, and you'd actually visited this branch. And they said, you know, he was much nicer, much real that I really thought he was. You know, because people will stereotype you one way or the other.

Jamie Dimon 15:42

They read about a CEO like the company, like they're tough, and they pound the table. I don't pound the table. I don't yell. Maybe I did years ago and I loved I'd be loving the front line. So boys out you're, you're nicer than we thought. I like the ogre. Like you aren't you want to show no surprise? I don't like negotiating. People think you do. I'm not I just I'd prefer to like, I would prefer you do it than me. I want to do a good job for my company. But, you know, because it's because like, I do it, but it causes angst. I'd rather not, you know, and I like a lot like everybody else. I like to avoid conflict sometimes, too. Because you've had enough conflict for a week. It's like, Okay, leave me alone. And but you can't when you're the boss, you can't you gotta you have to deal with issues. They don't age. Well, problems do not age. Well.

David Novak 16:28

How do you muster up that that that courage it takes to take on the tough conflict? Have the tough conversations

Jamie Dimon 16:34

that you do get better at? Because you know, they don't age? Well. I make a list on Sunday night. I don't know if you do something like this, David, but I always think about, what am I avoiding? What's tough? What do I have to do? I get real feedback from people and you're allowed to walk in and say, Your Jaime, you're taking too long, you're slowing down this or this person is causing damage. And I really don't let myself off the hook. And you were on my board for years, I learned something from you, which I do every single board meeting the since we last met. And on that last since we last month is those tough things. When I tell you as a board member, that I have this management issue. I have now opened my kimono, and you aren't letting me go either. You're gonna say next time. Okay, Jamie, what did you do? So what CEOs do and all managed to do? Well, they don't tell you I'm not putting pressure on myself.

David Novak 17:24

Right? When you go public, you can't go back. You don't want people to trust

Jamie Dimon 17:27

you as a board, but don't want me do the wrong thing. They're not gonna let me off the hook. You're gonna say, Hey, what did you do? And okay, it sounds right. Or it sounds wrong. Or Jamie. And you guys, we were there. You've told me many times, a couple of you said, Hey, Jamie, stop. We know we have to do we know it's hard. You have our support? Just go do it. Yeah, you know, and that and you need that you need it by not as a CEO you needed any leader needs any, you'd be running a branch, one of your restaurants, you know what the restaurant manager may need that about one of the people is working for him to

David Novak 18:01

you know, one of the best ways to build a team is to create these shared experiences. And you've mentioned this bus tour you went on, you know, where did that idea come from? And what exactly was it you took your senior team out on a bus?

Jamie Dimon 18:13

Yeah, first of all, y'all do the road trips, get on the plane, go to cities visit people visit branches, but there's a real bus jeans polo shirt. And you may not remember this, we got on a bus with you once before. It took us around to visit some restaurants I think in Louisville, right? We had the popcorn chicken and a bunch of stuff. But it was just an idea. And I said let's do it on the road. Let's go off the beaten path because remember someone you know at JPMorgan Chase, one of the things that you always go to the big cities. So he said let's go off the beaten path. We are off the beaten path inland California, you know, northern Florida, the Midwest, you know, Grand Rapids, you know, places we wouldn't normally go call centers, it was a gas. Everyone loved it. We love being on the bus to ours we in between we'd have tellers and loan officers and and so we've done it every year since other people do it. Now the company is always in jeans even went to Palm Beach. I don't know if you were there that night, went someplace. And the invitation said jeans, everyone was wearing, you know, suits and tie all the retired CEOs, pink shorts and, and stuff like that. And so even CEOs, you know, they show up to these lunches, and I'm in jeans, and we have an honest conversation about our country or company or our problems. And then we also other trips, always take local management, always. That's fantastic.

David Novak 19:34

Now, you know, 70% a Gallup poll recently 70% of workers are not engaged when they go to work, which means like 30% of your people are actually driving your results in productivity. Why why do you think people aren't engaged in what's your role as a leader to get them you know, to feel like they count

Speaker 1 19:53

you know, you we've all seen this is that people don't like their boss. And that that is almost always number one, you know, like Go on unhappy employees, usually because they're not gonna want their boss that attrition is because that people don't make the job fun. People give you a boring job, you know, so I hit like a bright kid, you know, we're a bright executive. Now given the job eight, I don't let him do it, or it's just rote, you're gonna get disengaged. And I think there's a tremendous amount of that that goes on, particularly in corporate America happens a small business that happens in corporate America and you will see you and I can walk into a store or a business and you see it. Like if you walk in, you know, to a well run company, right from the receptionist. You know, you see it, you could feel it, there's energy in the company want to help you, as opposed to walk in and the first thing you get is, well, what are you here for, you know, or something like that. So, as leaders man, it's the leaders not doing a good job is why people are disengaged. You wrote that book.

Jamie Dimon 20:51

I know it was a fiction about that. I forgot the name of the company.

David Novak 20:56

Yeah. Oh, great. One Oh, happy face toy company.

Speaker 1 20:58

Happy Face toy, but that is the person cause disengagement. They didn't listen to the people. They didn't really care. They had preconceived notions, as opposed to the next boss who walked in. Said what, why why? Why is it happiest? said well, we can't open the truck, Basil X. Really? You know, and that all of a sudden, they're engaged because it matters.

David Novak 21:20

Absolutely. You know, once you make the decision, Jamie to become a banker,

Jamie Dimon 21:24

oh, I barely made that decision. You're like, my dad was a stockbroker. And like a lot of dads, you didn't want me to do what he did. But, but remember, New York was very financial stockbroker, they were very small business at the time. So I went to and I love it. You know, I mean, every time you wake up everything the papers important to you. You know, I was I was probably one of those New Yorkers who I don't think it anymore. Like, you know, all that was New York, of course not. I mean, there's what a country we have. And I love live in Chicago. And, and, you know, if you travel around the world, there's some great cities out there. But I was focused kind of in the financial services, but my interest not being a banker per se, I actually wanted to join a team that was going to build a company and in financial services, that's what I knew. And so the guy worked for at the time, he had built Shearson and it was about building this and growing this and buying that and that was kind of appealed to me more than being a banker.

David Novak 22:15

Yeah, I know from your background that you turned down jobs actually Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and I'm sure other companies and and started out as assistant for Sandy Weill who was at American Express and had built that and you guys were partners for for a long time you work together all the way through to him running Citi Group and you being the CFO, you know, what was that journey? Like?

Jamie Dimon 22:39

It was unbelievable, you know, and back then he was very down to earth and I was including everything I was an assistant we that little company commercial credit bought all these other it just changed his name so primerica Smith Barney travelers then find merge with city I had been the president for several years before it merged with city and then yes, you know, he fired me and but boy, do you learn a lot man buying companies dealing with people fall out systems marketing. And you know, we were we were very optimistic but we learned a lot and we formed a team of people you know, Bob lip, and Bob lip put up there almost those Andy Pearson, unbelievable executive in person. And so you make great friends along the way. And,

David Novak 23:19

you know, think about this listen to Jamie starts out as assistant at American Express working for Sandy Weill they take over commercial credit and commercial credit ends up running Citigroup. I mean, that is one heck of a heck of a journey. He went on there. Now Jamie, you did have a falling out with Sandy Weill which was very well publicized. You know, what did you learn from that experience? And it was there anything you do different as a leader? Yeah.

Jamie Dimon 23:45

So you know about he did fire me. And I think for the wrong reasons, but I called him up after he did not call me. And I said, Sandy, can we break bread and I hadn't had a job yet. He said, Great. And we sat down and he was like sweating a little bit nervous. Don't be nervous. Well, I'm only here for two minutes about the past. You know, I think what you did was wrong for the company, which obviously it turned out to be right. I said, but I hear the mistakes I made. And I went through a bunch of them like like I had too much of I got too angry at him when I should have been focused on what's the right thing to do for the company. When he bothered me I was skipping meetings you want to be at you know, just just by get excited you want to be in his presence, but it's not a mature response to something. And so I went through a bunch of those things and at the end of that he said thank you for being all that. But he I never had to relate with him like you have Andy Pearson and he was never meant to work there very few real mentors in life. I think you learn a lot from watching other people. But you know, Andy Pearson, I learned at Pearson mentored me more than Sandy did just a little time to put his arm around you and make a joke and tell you what you should have done or, or just how we did things and so you know, watching Sandy I learned a lot of things to do. I also learned some things I would never do. Like I said, I watched from you watching I would watch learning lip so somebody Medtronic I was watching other people, it wasn't even that they were necessarily looking. Let's help Jamie out a little bit here, you know.

David Novak 25:06

So once you you were let go and you had time to step back and reflect on where you wanted to go next. Did you ever think about doing anything besides banking?

Jamie Dimon 25:15

Yeah. Yeah. So I all it was the internet boom, I was offered several of those. I went to see Jeff Bezos, who's still a friend at Amazon. It was a small company. I just thought moving my finished data was kind of out of my league. But the one I think, you know, that really interest me is Home Depot of all companies. And I went to see Ken Langone, and Arthur Blank, and Bernie Marcus has a great dinner, but my first dinner with those guys, and I said to him, I said, guys, I have to confess until you call me I never been to Home Depot. And I love them. I love the way they did stuff. I told them, I'd never been a merchant, I run stores, like running stores have a commonality to it, like you would know, from your business. They said, No, we don't we want your heart in your mind. We know we want your soul. And we we will teach you the rest of the stuff. I said you guys would pay for that education. They were gonna make me president not CEO, I was fine with that. Because honestly, I would not have been able to be CEO from day one, you know, when you don't know, you know, something is hard to actually run it. So I would have needed time, you know, under Arthur tutelage to do that, the only reason I picked bank one over Home Depot was I'd spent my whole life in financial services. And it was kind of like, you spend your whole life playing golf, and they, they want you to change the tennis and you're not quite sure you were suited to it. And that was really the thing that has been my craft. I knew the other companies, I knew the technologies, I knew the I could walk the floors of a trading thing or credit book and understand it, it was hard for me to walk the floor of a Home Depot and understand merchandising, why they why they put this up front, that in the back, you know, and supply chain management, and all those things. So it wasn't, but the guy I love those guys, you know, that to me was would have been a no brainer. Oh, they're

David Novak 26:57

unbelievable people, you know, so your first real CEO job was running bank one, which was a major bank, but in major need of turnaround. Now, what advice can you give to people when you're going into a turnaround situation?

Jamie Dimon 27:10

Yeah, well, it's, they're tough, you know, it's lonely and, and you kind of had that at young brands, too, you know, when you, when you started out, you know, you're running all these things, you would run one of them before, but all these people and they weren't performing well. And early problems. And, and you're not, you don't really have your own team, because you didn't bring your team. So a bank one. So first thing, I was very patient, but not patient to make decisions, I read everything, I started everything. But then I started meeting the people get out in the road all the time, see the people report back, get all the information. And as you do that, you start to learn people form a decision. And then you had the tough decisions to do, I was always direct with the board, right for everything, I tell them everything that we need to do this, because it's good for the company to clients, we need to invest this, we need to, we had to layoff a lot of people just miserable. But I told him, You know, honestly, guys, you cause this toe. But if we don't fix it, we'll never have a great company. So the board was completely supportive. You know, as you know, not all the management team was there's a lot of static and I don't want to change, Jimmy doesn't always know what he's doing. And you know, you have to be pretty forceful and convincing. While you push, you always try to get a lot of buy in. But at one point, you make the changes you got to make and bring in some new blood and, and the ones once you got a team, it's a whole different thing. And if you were going to turn about the team of people is very different going in by yourself. And, and if you went out with a team of people, I'd say give the other manager the chance to, they have to know you're going to give them a full chance. Otherwise you can demoralize the whole company, and that that'll backfire too.

David Novak 28:45

Well Bank One was a remarkable success story. And then JP Morgan Chase acquired bank one and you quickly became CEO there. What changed in the way you do businesses you took on a bank that was so much bigger, your bank one certainly wasn't small, but it wasn't JP Morgan Chase, how'd you adapt to such a big global enterprise?

Jamie Dimon 29:07

So you're honestly nothing changed it. I did like these business reviews, the travels, the road trips, they just include India and China. And you know, more businesses, but I did the same thing. There's the thorough review, review, review, travel again, the road, learn, learn, learn. I read a lot in the weekends. So I didn't really change anything. I did have a management team. Right from the start. I had the one I had a bank one I knew a lot of people JP Morgan Chase. And Bill Harris and I did something which I think is a really smart thing to do. If anyone doesn't merger and you were part of this, a member was ordained. I was going to come to see oh, it was publicly announced it was going to take two years but but there was no noise and no politics. Right. And Bill Harris and I, at the same time we announced the deal. We announced the management team, and it was a rational management team. It wasn't kind of bastardized by tons of political decisions. And we tried to make the best people decisions and there are people from both companies. And then we just started to relent was processed and again you do get the resistance you get the people we don't do it that way here and I always say the same thing. It's not how you do it or don't what's the right way to do it for the company, the client?

David Novak 30:09

Great, you know you you have enormous responsibility running a global company, biggest financial institution in the world. How do you even possibly go through prioritization? You do it?

Jamie Dimon 30:21

Yeah, I don't know I I called the operon architecture. You know, I have an operating committee we meet every week, we've got an agenda every month we spent a lot of time on the Genesis set ahead of time. We have business rules all the time. I've got pre scheduled road trips and stuff like that. But that that actually takes 35% of my time. My doors literally open the whitespace half the time and we're always going through list I better leaders now we know that allows us to do more.

Speaker 1 30:46

I do less myself we spend more time on innovation, we spend more time looking at x we spend more time with clients we are very very disciplined diligent follow up was just like you did by the way and and you know you did it for you know three different brands but you know, if you added a fourth you just added it right in

David Novak 31:04

you know, one of the things I always enjoyed stayed with you is that you carried with this eight by 10 sheet of paper, you know that you fold it in half and you put it in your suit pocket or blazer, Park pocket, you know, tell me about that. Tell our listeners about that.

Jamie Dimon 31:18

I people find Heartbleed I returned every email on every phone call almost every day. and everything goes if I need to, if you if I owe you something I write an atlas Novak dash x, you know if I need to call you or if I asked you for something that says Novak owes me why, if I need to make a date, it goes on that sheet or if and I also have a thing called Think about, like I need to think about like I just I just might do when I go home at night. But that's just one layer. And I do still carry that that's my kind of immediate if what do I gotta get done now for an hour in the car that I take out that list I had, there's another list for every business, which is much more detailed and much more strategic.

David Novak 31:56

What I always love, Jamie was watching that when you got something done, somebody owed you something and you took out your pin and you didn't just cross through it, you obliterated it, you know, it's like, but you've got a real high sense of urgency and make it happen attitude

Jamie Dimon 32:12

to the show that Obliteration, I never realized that and to mention that. And now I know, I know, I blitter ated, purposely with happiness. But you do it. You know,

David Novak 32:22

one of the things I always joy to watching you is that you didn't really talk strategy that much. But you got to the end game, but you got there by basically seeing how the world was moving every day versus having a five year strategic plan or whatever. Talk about how you manage the whole strategic process.

Jamie Dimon 32:39

So we said we're going to have a strategic upside, we do it every year, three days really strategic like, and we bring that back to the board. But I always call it strategic like a lot of people spend a lot of time on like dough five year tenure NPVs. And, and how you want and I'm not against it, but I was I was sure things are table stakes, like you're invent, you're kidding yourself. If you think you shouldn't build a digital supply system, you know, and you're kidding yourself. If you shouldn't get good service and hot food in the restaurant, you're kidding yourself. And that is companies do a terrible job, sometimes the data execution. So you and I would both say, you know, first trade execution beats first rate strategy with secondary execution. And we do do the strategy stuff. So we always think in what country? What business? What's technology going to do payment systems? What's, what would Amazon do? Have they become a bank? So we actually do do it, but we just don't let people confuse every conversation with it. And we try to separate out a little bit and have separate meetings audit. So otherwise, you know, what happens when people start to BS in meetings? Well, our strategy is bricks and clicks. And yeah, well, how many people use the branch? How would you how are we doing? What are ours? What are the competitors? Ours? What are the services? How much advice we give them? How can we not put more advisors in there as and then? Because very often strategy becomes an excuse. Why I'm very careful about how you use it at a company.

David Novak 33:58

Math great, great, you know, what advice can you give to people who want to want to start their own business? Be entrepreneurs, we have a lot of lessons like that.

Jamie Dimon 34:08

Yeah, I you know, honestly, this is out of respect for them. I've never been when you start a business and entrepreneurs, I have enormous respect for it. And I think it's hard because an entrepreneur, if you're opening a restaurant, you also have to hire people get uniforms, buy food, get insurance, sign the lease, do payroll, you know. So it's all of a sudden, you're the CEO, but you're doing things yourself. So I guess I know what you're doing. Look what other people do look at the competition. Make sure you understand that all these things matter. So sometimes businesses fail because you're not paying attention to a thing that they didn't think would matter but it's important like you know, if a restaurant doesn't serve lunches because they don't have lunch on Saturday, that may be the difference between winning or losing so so it's hard we do a lot of entrepreneurs and honestly, I always get pumped up and I say I'm

David Novak 34:57

if you could just gonna just leave our listeners with With three things, you know, three things you'd like them to remember this conversation is what would it be?

Jamie Dimon 35:06

America is an exceptional place. And let's focus on fixing our problems. Work hard. Take care of your mind you buy is very solid work, why spend your life learning and take care of your mind. Your body is very solid to your job, and it'll give you a better life.

David Novak 35:22

Great, Jamie, you're the best. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Jamie Dimon 35:26

They think I enjoyed it. Yeah. Appreciate I'll talk to you soon.

David Novak 35:37

Well, when you listen to Jamie diamond, you can see why he's such a standout leader. But one thing that always stuck with me is that folded up sheet of paper he keeps with him to write down the issues he comes across and needs to deal with. That's really incredible, isn't it? He knows uncovering a problem is only the beginning. Great leaders have a plan so they can follow through and deal with it. I really admire that. So now it's time for a little coaching. So this week as part of your weekly personal development plan, I want you to try Jamie's approach for yourself. Fold up a sheet of paper and tuck it in your coat pocket, your purse, heck, your PJs, if you're working from home, keep it handy and jot down the issues you spot. I know it might be tempting to use an app. But I think there's something kind of magical about the old fashioned physical piece of paper. And hey, when you get something resolved, make sure you scribble through it with the same kind of intensity that Jamie does. You're going to love it. And man, your team is really going to respect the follow through that you have. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is that great leaders always have a plan to deal with problems. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

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