[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_141":-5,"_142":-5,"_143":144,"_145":146,"_147":148},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/3425/dont-let-market-differentiation-cost-you-excellence","id",3425,"title","Don’t let market differentiation cost you excellence","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680\nI was working for someone, you know, well Bob Ulrich,\n\n2\n00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.840\nwho was CEO of Target, late '80s to the '90s,\n\n3\n00:00:06.840 --> 00:00:10.480\nreally did a fantastic job because Target at that point\n\n4\n00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:12.840\nwas in a huge battle with Walmart.\n\n5\n00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:16.720\nAnd Walmart was opening stores in all the suburban areas\n\n6\n00:00:16.720 --> 00:00:19.360\nand had come from rural and they had a lower cost structure\n\n7\n00:00:19.360 --> 00:00:22.640\nand Bob led us to really succeed.\n\n8\n00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.640\nAnd I was one of his core merchandise leaders\n\n9\n00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.320\nand had a vision that Target not only\n\n10\n00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:32.100\ncould be different, it could be preferred.\n\n11\n00:00:32.100 --> 00:00:36.240\nAnd to me, preferred meant different and better\n\n12\n00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.280\nbecause when you differentiate the risk\n\n13\n00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:42.640\nis someone just differentiates away from a competitor,\n\n14\n00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:44.440\nbut you end up giving up a little bit\n\n15\n00:00:44.440 --> 00:00:47.080\nto make something like better margin or whatever.\n\n16\n00:00:47.080 --> 00:00:51.160\nAnd, you know, we took, I had a dream\n\n17\n00:00:51.160 --> 00:00:53.720\nthat Target could win on design.\n\n18\n00:00:53.720 --> 00:00:56.840\nAnd I remember talking to Bob about it early on\n\n19\n00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:01.760\nand I said, we're gonna find a way to bring design\n\n20\n00:01:01.760 --> 00:01:03.040\nto everybody.\n\n21\n00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:05.240\nAnd the '90s were a big period of design\n\n22\n00:01:05.240 --> 00:01:09.120\nand we launched a partnership with a guy named Michael Graves\n\n23\n00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.560\nin the home area and it really succeeded\n\n24\n00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:13.920\nand transformed Target.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",167754,"end_time",241452,"keywords","Differentiation, market, product market fit, competitor, competition, Target, Walmart, Bob Ulrich, design","slug","dont-let-market-differentiation-cost-you-excellence","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","900gdKkAs4IYFqx9003cxANNGSWsudTyk2H3l00kBskrb00","mux_asset_id","9UroK7yHDQYdvzAGoPF6GinLEhIIQqLZAWJwV3y5Lms","leader_id",293,"episode_id",442,"updated_at","2026-08-13T16:56:03.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/3425/dont-let-market-differentiation-cost-you-excellence","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_104":105,"_106":107,"_108":109,"_25":110,"_111":112,"_61":113,"_58":113,"_114":115,"_68":116,"_39":117,"_118":119,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_120":121,"_91":122,"_44":123,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_46":-5,"_128":129,"_130":131,"_95":132,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":-5,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":76,"_43":-5,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_87":88,"_89":90,"_91":-5,"_46":-5,"_92":93,"_94":-5,"_95":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","A great customer experience is an act of love","a-great-customer-experience-is-an-act-of-love","Truly great customer experiences are rooted in love – a deep empathy for your customers' problems, plus a genuine desire to solve them.","summary","

You’ve probably been inside an Apple Store. And if you have, you know: it’s a totally different kind of retail experience.

That’s because of Ron Johnson. He was Steve Job’s handpicked hire to launch the Apple Store, after Steve saw how Ron revitalized Target with an emphasis on design.

He and Steve Jobs worked closely to launch what has to be one of the greatest retail experiences ever built. In this episode, you’ll see exactly how they did it – and how it all stemmed from Ron’s belief that you should love your customers.

He also talks (with refreshing vulnerability!) about what he learned from his failed turnaround attempt at JCPenney.

This episode is for you if:

You need to improve the customer experience at your company
You’re trying to get buy-in on a big idea
You want to build more excellence into your culture
You admire Steve Jobs and the Apple brand

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.160\nHello everyone and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David\n\n2\n00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:05.680\nNovak. Today we have\n\n3\n00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:10.140\nRon Johnson on the show. He's the retail visionary who transformed Target and\n\n4\n00:00:10.140 --> 00:00:11.440\nbrought the Apple Store\n\n5\n00:00:11.440 --> 00:00:15.870\nto life forever changing the way that companies think about the customer\n\n6\n00:00:15.870 --> 00:00:17.280\nexperience. Ron's out\n\n7\n00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:20.610\nwith a new book called Shop and Different and in this episode you're going to\n\n8\n00:00:20.610 --> 00:00:21.760\nlearn all about Ron's\n\n9\n00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:26.890\nstory and how he brings big vision to life by taking people with him. Enjoy\n\n10\n00:00:26.890 --> 00:00:27.920\nthis conversation\n\n11\n00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.960\nbetween David and Ron and I will see you at the debrief.\n\n12\n00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:42.640\nBefore we get into your story I read an article recently that says that every\n\n13\n00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:43.760\nmorning you run\n\n14\n00:00:43.760 --> 00:00:49.430\nfive miles and then you hit 50 pitch shots in your backyard. So I got to ask\n\n15\n00:00:49.430 --> 00:00:50.960\nyou how's your golf\n\n16\n00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:56.120\ngame lately? My golf game's actually pretty good. It's the one thing I it's the\n\n17\n00:00:56.120 --> 00:00:56.960\none sport I can\n\n18\n00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:03.120\nstill get better at but I still practice golf more than I play but I'm about a\n\n19\n00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:04.640\nseven handicap and I\n\n20\n00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:08.500\ncan play to it so that's pretty good. That's great. What's the story from the\n\n21\n00:01:08.500 --> 00:01:09.840\ngolf course that\n\n22\n00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:15.030\ntaught you an important leadership lesson? Oh I think it's about integrity. You\n\n23\n00:01:15.030 --> 00:01:16.240\nknow the beauty of golf\n\n24\n00:01:16.240 --> 00:01:23.050\nis if you really want to play it well you've got to use integrity because there\n\n25\n00:01:23.050 --> 00:01:24.000\n's a lot of times\n\n26\n00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:29.520\nduring a match when you would have the opportunity to do something that's kind\n\n27\n00:01:29.520 --> 00:01:30.400\nof against the rules.\n\n28\n00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.160\nYou know you're out in the middle of the rough somewhere and the other person\n\n29\n00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:34.880\ncan't see you. You\n\n30\n00:01:34.880 --> 00:01:39.000\ncould move your ball in a variety of things. Even when you play on your own of\n\n31\n00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:40.160\nthe handicap system\n\n32\n00:01:40.160 --> 00:01:45.520\nyou could give yourself a putt. You know I think integrity is just honoring the\n\n33\n00:01:45.520 --> 00:01:46.000\nrules\n\n34\n00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:51.410\nand that's also true in business. You know one of the most important lessons I\n\n35\n00:01:51.410 --> 00:01:51.920\nlearned from\n\n36\n00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:57.110\nSteve and one was from mistake is you know trust. You know business depends on\n\n37\n00:01:57.110 --> 00:01:58.000\ntrust and that's\n\n38\n00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.450\nintegrity and I think there are very few sports that require more integrity\n\n39\n00:02:02.450 --> 00:02:04.160\nthan the game of golf.\n\n40\n00:02:04.160 --> 00:02:09.680\nAbsolutely and you mentioned Steve Jobs you know learning trust from him. You\n\n41\n00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:10.880\nknow millions of\n\n42\n00:02:10.880 --> 00:02:16.070\npeople have walked into an apple store since you know it was started over 25\n\n43\n00:02:16.070 --> 00:02:16.560\nyears ago\n\n44\n00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:25.200\nand most have no idea that you helped create it alongside Steve Jobs. And so I\n\n45\n00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:25.760\n'm going to spend\n\n46\n00:02:25.760 --> 00:02:29.960\nsome time in this conversation pulling back the curtain a little bit and also\n\n47\n00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:30.480\ntalking about\n\n48\n00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:34.590\nother things in your career but let's start at the beginning. You know you were\n\n49\n00:02:34.590 --> 00:02:35.760\nyou were thriving\n\n50\n00:02:35.760 --> 00:02:41.020\nat Target. I mean the stock had been on a major run. It went up 12 times while\n\n51\n00:02:41.020 --> 00:02:42.080\nyou were there.\n\n52\n00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:47.600\nAnd then Apple called it. Tell us that story how it all happened. Well I was\n\n53\n00:02:47.600 --> 00:02:48.400\nyou know I was working\n\n54\n00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:54.030\nfor someone you know well Bob Oric who was CEO of Target late 80s to the 90s\n\n55\n00:02:54.030 --> 00:02:55.760\nreally did a fantastic\n\n56\n00:02:55.760 --> 00:03:00.950\njob because Target at that point was in a huge battle with Walmart and Walmart\n\n57\n00:03:00.950 --> 00:03:02.080\nwas opening stores\n\n58\n00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:06.280\nin all the suburban areas and had come from rural and they had a lower cost\n\n59\n00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:07.600\nstructure and\n\n60\n00:03:07.600 --> 00:03:14.640\nBob led us to really succeed and I was one of his core merchandise leaders and\n\n61\n00:03:14.640 --> 00:03:16.080\nhad a vision that\n\n62\n00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:21.240\nTarget not only could be different it could be preferred and to me preferred\n\n63\n00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:22.160\nmeant different\n\n64\n00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:27.520\nand better because when you differentiate the risk is someone just different\n\n65\n00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:29.040\niates away from a\n\n66\n00:03:29.040 --> 00:03:33.090\ncompetitor but you end up giving up a little bit to make something like better\n\n67\n00:03:33.090 --> 00:03:34.160\nmargin or whatever.\n\n68\n00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:42.400\nAnd you know we we took I had a dream that Target could win on design and and I\n\n69\n00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:42.960\nremember talking to\n\n70\n00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:49.430\nBob about it early on and and I said we're going to find a way to bring design\n\n71\n00:03:49.430 --> 00:03:50.720\nto everybody\n\n72\n00:03:50.720 --> 00:03:55.360\nand the 90s were a big period of design and and we launched a partnership with\n\n73\n00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:56.160\na guy named Michael\n\n74\n00:03:56.160 --> 00:04:01.420\nGraves in the home area and it it really succeeded and transformed Target\n\n75\n00:04:01.420 --> 00:04:03.120\nbecause I had done that\n\n76\n00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:08.880\nwhen Steve at the same time the literally within a year of when I launched the\n\n77\n00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:09.920\ndesign initiative at\n\n78\n00:04:09.920 --> 00:04:16.000\nTarget Steve returned to Apple as CEO and launched the iMac and the iMac was\n\n79\n00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.040\nthat original iMac and\n\n80\n00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:23.180\nthe colors was a design icon as well so he appreciated great design and he knew\n\n81\n00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:24.640\nthough that for Apple\n\n82\n00:04:24.640 --> 00:04:29.830\nto win he or he believed Apple had to control the customer experience so he\n\n83\n00:04:29.830 --> 00:04:31.040\nwanted to open his own\n\n84\n00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:36.200\nstores and he asked a recruiter go find who's doing that design stuff at Target\n\n85\n00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:36.800\nwhich led to me\n\n86\n00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:43.730\nand I flew out one Monday to spend time with Steve we spent three hours\n\n87\n00:04:43.730 --> 00:04:46.560\ntogether and even though\n\n88\n00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:52.450\nTarget was flourishing in Apple was struggling I felt I'd never met someone I\n\n89\n00:04:52.450 --> 00:04:53.760\ncould learn more from\n\n90\n00:04:53.760 --> 00:04:58.950\nor I'd be more inspired to work with than Steve and I just got so caught up I\n\n91\n00:04:58.950 --> 00:04:59.920\nsaid I've got to do\n\n92\n00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:05.600\nthis and so I joined Apple's executive team to build out the retail stores and\n\n93\n00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:06.480\nstarted there about a\n\n94\n00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:12.160\nmonth later in January 2000 so I got to ask you about that first meeting with\n\n95\n00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:13.200\nJobs you know what\n\n96\n00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:17.210\nreally surprised you the most about him and what did he do as a leader that\n\n97\n00:05:17.210 --> 00:05:18.400\nmade you feel like you\n\n98\n00:05:18.400 --> 00:05:23.590\ncould really really really sharpen your axe and become a better leader yourself\n\n99\n00:05:23.590 --> 00:05:26.320\nhe was so curious\n\n100\n00:05:27.520 --> 00:05:34.070\nand such an exceptional listener it really surprised me you know at Target\n\n101\n00:05:34.070 --> 00:05:36.880\nTarget like many big companies\n\n102\n00:05:36.880 --> 00:05:44.360\nwas a very formal operated pretty bureaucratically I fought that in the teams I\n\n103\n00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:46.160\nled but at Target\n\n104\n00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:50.370\nyou know if you had a he had a boss and there's a culture of once a week you'd\n\n105\n00:05:50.370 --> 00:05:51.440\nmeet for an hour\n\n106\n00:05:51.440 --> 00:05:55.680\nand you'd bring in a list of things you want to talk about and you're boss of\n\n107\n00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:56.320\nthings they want\n\n108\n00:05:56.320 --> 00:06:01.510\nto talk about and that was kind of the communication structure and then we had\n\n109\n00:06:01.510 --> 00:06:02.400\nthese felt like we were\n\n110\n00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:08.630\nalways planning and doing stuff and when I met Steve he was the opposite you\n\n111\n00:06:08.630 --> 00:06:10.640\nknow I we sat down I\n\n112\n00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:14.380\nremember he was a few minutes late I was reading about him because I didn't\n\n113\n00:06:14.380 --> 00:06:15.600\nknow a whole lot about\n\n114\n00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:20.810\nhim and I was on this desk we're like three magazines with him on the cover and\n\n115\n00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:22.320\nI was reading\n\n116\n00:06:22.320 --> 00:06:25.920\nthose and he came in he said hi I'm Steve and I said I'm Ron he said come on in\n\n117\n00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:27.040\nand he immediately\n\n118\n00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:32.230\nput his feet up on the table look me in the eye and he said tell me about the\n\n119\n00:06:32.230 --> 00:06:32.800\ndesign stuff you're\n\n120\n00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:38.550\ndoing at Target and we probably spent a half hour just discussing why we did it\n\n121\n00:06:38.550 --> 00:06:39.760\nhow it worked how\n\n122\n00:06:39.760 --> 00:06:47.240\nwas Michael he was so exceptionally curious and it wasn't about the outcome it\n\n123\n00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:49.120\nwas about the inputs\n\n124\n00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:55.740\nand and then we talked about Apple and then we talked about stores and you know\n\n125\n00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:56.560\nit was obvious\n\n126\n00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:01.720\nhe didn't spend a lot of time in retail stores for a variety of reasons but he\n\n127\n00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:03.440\nwas in intensely\n\n128\n00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:08.630\ncurious and as I spent time with him through the questions he asked the\n\n129\n00:07:08.630 --> 00:07:09.920\nconversations we had\n\n130\n00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:16.020\nit was just so different than the people I worked at Target the attorney was\n\n131\n00:07:16.020 --> 00:07:17.360\njust like a company\n\n132\n00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:24.240\nokay what are your plans how are you doing on your KPIs let's go through your\n\n133\n00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:32.150\nsuccession plans it felt like I was at business school where with Steve I felt\n\n134\n00:07:32.150 --> 00:07:33.040\nlike we're going\n\n135\n00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:37.510\nto create a future and the better the future we created the better the business\n\n136\n00:07:37.510 --> 00:07:38.080\nwould be\n\n137\n00:07:38.080 --> 00:07:45.680\nand I just really was inspired by being with him he wasn't a manager he was a\n\n138\n00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:46.160\nleader\n\n139\n00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:53.040\nand he cared about doing insanely great things and when I was at Target every\n\n140\n00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:53.680\ntime I tried\n\n141\n00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.560\nto push the envelope because I like to do big things and take risks people try\n\n142\n00:07:57.560 --> 00:07:58.480\nto hold me back\n\n143\n00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.950\nwell here's why it won't work here's why it won't work and Steve was like but\n\n144\n00:08:01.950 --> 00:08:03.040\nif you want to do that\n\n145\n00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.450\nwhat if you did this what if you tried that and he would he was a person who'd\n\n146\n00:08:07.450 --> 00:08:09.040\ntake my ideas\n\n147\n00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.310\nand try to make them better he was never trying to take my ideas and tell me\n\n148\n00:08:13.310 --> 00:08:14.400\nwhy they wouldn't work\n\n149\n00:08:15.200 --> 00:08:20.800\nand I just found him very inspiring give me an example of where he took one of\n\n150\n00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:21.520\nyour innovative\n\n151\n00:08:21.520 --> 00:08:25.980\nideas and took it to the next level we worked together to design the first\n\n152\n00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.320\nstore and then\n\n153\n00:08:28.320 --> 00:08:32.410\nwe started to flagship stores and I said he said no but let's put in a\n\n154\n00:08:32.410 --> 00:08:34.080\nbeautiful glass stair\n\n155\n00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:39.460\nand let's put in a skylight and these places you know ultimately you've\n\n156\n00:08:39.460 --> 00:08:40.000\nconvinced me that\n\n157\n00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.660\nreflect the Apple brand and we have got to build much more beautiful stores you\n\n158\n00:08:45.660 --> 00:08:46.560\nknow these are\n\n159\n00:08:46.560 --> 00:08:51.720\na tribute to Apple and they're the first impression people have and he really\n\n160\n00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:53.280\nelevated the design\n\n161\n00:08:53.280 --> 00:09:01.170\nof our stores over time and encouraged me to do that you know Steve was never\n\n162\n00:09:01.170 --> 00:09:02.800\nnever right or on\n\n163\n00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:10.470\nhe didn't care about what something cost he cared about was it pure was it\n\n164\n00:09:10.470 --> 00:09:11.520\ngreat you know\n\n165\n00:09:11.520 --> 00:09:15.280\nhe would say things you know as you as you do these stores be really careful\n\n166\n00:09:15.280 --> 00:09:16.160\nbecause most people\n\n167\n00:09:16.160 --> 00:09:22.400\nthey watch their budget too closely and the last 10 percent of projects is what\n\n168\n00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:23.120\nthe customer\n\n169\n00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.200\nsees and makes a difference and that's where you can't skip out because that's\n\n170\n00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:27.600\nwhat they're\n\n171\n00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:29.770\ngoing to see that's what they're going to touch that's what they're going to\n\n172\n00:09:29.770 --> 00:09:31.120\nfeel you know so\n\n173\n00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:37.980\neverything he did was just um pushing me to do things better than I imagine\n\n174\n00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:38.880\nthey needed to be\n\n175\n00:09:38.880 --> 00:09:44.000\ndone you know I guess the standards were just so high for him you know what\n\n176\n00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:44.880\nmade him so good to\n\n177\n00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:51.740\nwork for delegation by far the best delegator I've ever worked for um you know\n\n178\n00:09:51.740 --> 00:09:53.680\nwhen I met Steve\n\n179\n00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.560\nhe called it was probably about what I'd been working at Apple about 30 days\n\n180\n00:09:58.560 --> 00:10:00.160\nand I had\n\n181\n00:10:00.160 --> 00:10:05.320\nyou know really said to him I said you know if we our goal we had five percent\n\n182\n00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:05.760\nmarket share\n\n183\n00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:12.240\nand our goal was to bring the computer and technology to everybody who was\n\n184\n00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:18.400\ncurrently scared of technology because only half of America used a personal\n\n185\n00:10:18.400 --> 00:10:19.280\ncomputer even\n\n186\n00:10:19.280 --> 00:10:25.120\nat Target we didn't use email at work this was 2000 it was the beginning really\n\n187\n00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:25.840\nthe early days\n\n188\n00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:31.330\nthe internet online shopping and I convinced Steve that well if we succeed and\n\n189\n00:10:31.330 --> 00:10:32.320\nwe reached all\n\n190\n00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:36.630\nthese new customers their first impression of Apple is not going to be a\n\n191\n00:10:36.630 --> 00:10:38.000\nproduct you designed\n\n192\n00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:44.050\nit can be a store and experience that I will primarily deliver and I just\n\n193\n00:10:44.050 --> 00:10:45.840\nwanted him to understand\n\n194\n00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:50.550\nthat and he called me that night when we really talked about it he said Ron\n\n195\n00:10:50.550 --> 00:10:51.200\nwhat time your\n\n196\n00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:55.910\nkids go to bed and I said eight o'clock they were two and four at the time or\n\n197\n00:10:55.910 --> 00:10:56.720\nthree and five\n\n198\n00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:02.330\nand he said can I call you I said sure go ahead I said I'm free he goes no\n\n199\n00:11:02.330 --> 00:11:03.200\nevery night\n\n200\n00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:11.200\nI said every night at a clock he said yep for about a year and I said okay he\n\n201\n00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.840\nsaid no if if he said\n\n202\n00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:17.920\nwhat you're gonna do for Apple I won't be able to be involved with you're gonna\n\n203\n00:11:17.920 --> 00:11:18.720\nbe picking real\n\n204\n00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:23.840\nestate all over the world you'll be designing the stores you're gonna hire the\n\n205\n00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:24.160\npeople that are\n\n206\n00:11:24.160 --> 00:11:27.790\ninterface with Apple he goes when we do products I go to the lab or video I\n\n207\n00:11:27.790 --> 00:11:29.520\nlook at those every\n\n208\n00:11:29.520 --> 00:11:35.220\nmarketing ad we do I meet with the agency I approve that what you do I won't be\n\n209\n00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:36.240\nable to do that for\n\n210\n00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:40.580\nus so you have to know how I think and the only way you know know how I think\n\n211\n00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:41.680\nis if you understand\n\n212\n00:11:41.680 --> 00:11:48.800\nhow I think about everything in life and so we talked about families and our\n\n213\n00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:49.360\ndaughters went\n\n214\n00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:55.340\nto the same school so that was easy but religion faith life experience and or\n\n215\n00:11:55.340 --> 00:11:57.120\nthe course of a year\n\n216\n00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:03.130\nI really got to know Steve and because of that he after well said well Ron now\n\n217\n00:12:03.130 --> 00:12:04.240\nthat you know me\n\n218\n00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:09.800\nand I know you the only time you have to come to me is if you're not sure you\n\n219\n00:12:09.800 --> 00:12:11.440\nknow how I think\n\n220\n00:12:12.560 --> 00:12:17.870\nor if you want my advice but you are free as a butterfly fly to go make these\n\n221\n00:12:17.870 --> 00:12:19.200\nstores great\n\n222\n00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:24.390\nwhat did you reveal about yourself Ron to him when you're having these\n\n223\n00:12:24.390 --> 00:12:25.600\nconversations that that\n\n224\n00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:32.530\nyou you think really you know opened up the door to to trust between the two of\n\n225\n00:12:32.530 --> 00:12:34.160\nyou I think it was\n\n226\n00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:42.210\nthe importance of kindness you know I talked to Steve about he asked a question\n\n227\n00:12:42.210 --> 00:12:42.640\nonce\n\n228\n00:12:42.640 --> 00:12:49.360\nyou know what's our service last thing to be in the stores and I said it's\n\n229\n00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:50.240\nexactly what you do\n\n230\n00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.100\nwith your products we're gonna love our customer he just looked at me he said\n\n231\n00:12:54.100 --> 00:12:54.880\nwhat do you mean we're\n\n232\n00:12:54.880 --> 00:13:00.120\ngonna love our customer I said well love if you really study it if you look at\n\n233\n00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:01.120\nthe Bible is\n\n234\n00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:06.430\nto secure the good of another person it's to truly understand what someone\n\n235\n00:13:06.430 --> 00:13:08.480\nneeds and figure out how\n\n236\n00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:12.570\nto close the gap between what they need and where they are and I said you've\n\n237\n00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:13.840\ndone that for years you\n\n238\n00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:20.000\nmake technology easy to use you believe in simplicity you believe in technology\n\n239\n00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:20.720\ngetting out of the way\n\n240\n00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:26.320\nso people can do things like make movies and and you know all that stuff and\n\n241\n00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:27.360\nand I said that's an\n\n242\n00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:32.550\nact of love and he asked about where it came from I said well I grew up in\n\n243\n00:13:32.550 --> 00:13:33.680\noutside of Minneapolis\n\n244\n00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:38.160\nand you know my parents were great and they talked about loving your neighbor\n\n245\n00:13:38.160 --> 00:13:39.360\nand being kind and\n\n246\n00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:45.760\nwhen our neighbor husband passed away you know each of us had another driveway\n\n247\n00:13:45.760 --> 00:13:46.560\nto shovel every\n\n248\n00:13:46.560 --> 00:13:50.930\nwinter you know that's just kind of how you lived your life and I think that\n\n249\n00:13:50.930 --> 00:13:52.320\nreally impressed him\n\n250\n00:13:53.440 --> 00:14:01.350\nand he wanted that kind of service for Apple for his customers and it was\n\n251\n00:14:01.350 --> 00:14:02.320\nsomething that\n\n252\n00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:08.720\nwasn't natural for him to do Steve was a really lovely guy be a very direct\n\n253\n00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:09.840\nvery high standards\n\n254\n00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:16.080\ncould be a little bit you know emotional at times where I provided a different\n\n255\n00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.520\ninterface for Apple\n\n256\n00:14:17.520 --> 00:14:24.170\nand and I think I earned my trust not through where I went to school or my\n\n257\n00:14:24.170 --> 00:14:27.040\nintelligence but the values\n\n258\n00:14:27.040 --> 00:14:32.290\nI grew up with makes a lot of sense and and you know I know you went straight\n\n259\n00:14:32.290 --> 00:14:33.840\nto work and as I\n\n260\n00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:39.030\nunderstand it you eventually realized the story you'd been spending months\n\n261\n00:14:39.030 --> 00:14:41.200\ndesigning wasn't necessarily\n\n262\n00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.470\nthe right direction in fact it was wrong in your opinion and tell us a story\n\n263\n00:14:45.470 --> 00:14:46.480\nand how you how you\n\n264\n00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:51.840\npivoted well it's so interesting because Steve and I met every Tuesday with a\n\n265\n00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:52.800\nteam of people in a\n\n266\n00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:59.800\nwarehouse to design the store and we had worked on it for about six months and\n\n267\n00:14:59.800 --> 00:15:01.920\nI had been because\n\n268\n00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:06.330\nI just started at Apple and my family is going to move out when the school year\n\n269\n00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:07.120\nstarted I was\n\n270\n00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.080\ncommuting back to my home in Minneapolis it was on Friday Saturday Sunday\n\n271\n00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:12.320\nMinneapolis and I told\n\n272\n00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:17.590\nSteve one day kind of living in two worlds when I'm in Cupertino I'm in a\n\n273\n00:15:17.590 --> 00:15:19.920\ndigital world because\n\n274\n00:15:19.920 --> 00:15:25.110\nApple was moving forward creating the digital future but when I was in\n\n275\n00:15:25.110 --> 00:15:26.080\nMinneapolis it was an\n\n276\n00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.790\nanalog world what I mean by that is you know back then 90 percent of people\n\n277\n00:15:30.790 --> 00:15:31.840\nused film cameras\n\n278\n00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:36.210\non California they're using digital cameras so I would get home and we take\n\n279\n00:15:36.210 --> 00:15:37.600\npictures of my kids\n\n280\n00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.460\nand I'd go to the grocery store and get the film and bring it back and Cameron\n\n281\n00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:42.080\nwould make\n\n282\n00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:47.270\nscrapbooks she'd make these beautiful scrapbooks and that was an analog\n\n283\n00:15:47.270 --> 00:15:48.080\nexperience and then in\n\n284\n00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:53.500\nCupertino I'm designing how do we take iPhoto and cameras and sync pins and\n\n285\n00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:55.120\nmake digital scrapbooks\n\n286\n00:15:55.120 --> 00:16:00.560\nand I said you know Steve I really think what's interesting about the Mac is it\n\n287\n00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:01.200\n's always been\n\n288\n00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:06.390\npositioned as a way to get on the internet the future seems to be that the Mac\n\n289\n00:16:06.390 --> 00:16:07.200\nwill be at the\n\n290\n00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:14.240\ncenter of your digital experience and he thought he said can you send me an\n\n291\n00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:15.280\nemail on that I wrote\n\n292\n00:16:15.280 --> 00:16:20.480\nhim an email you know I'm sure I just crystallized thinking he had been having\n\n293\n00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:21.920\nbut the next Monday\n\n294\n00:16:21.920 --> 00:16:26.370\nI walk into work and at the ET he comes in all excited he stands at the white\n\n295\n00:16:26.370 --> 00:16:27.440\nboard and he says\n\n296\n00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:32.600\nokay I gotta show you some guys I've got the future of the Mac and he draws a\n\n297\n00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:33.440\npicture with the Mac at\n\n298\n00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:38.800\nthe center and then he puts these devices on the outside like a music player\n\n299\n00:16:38.800 --> 00:16:39.120\nand a\n\n300\n00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:45.800\ncamcorder and a camera and he said our software we can create software like i\n\n301\n00:16:45.800 --> 00:16:47.120\nMovie and iPhoto\n\n302\n00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:52.600\nand I just and the Mac is at the center of your it's a digital hub that was the\n\n303\n00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:53.360\nname for it's a\n\n304\n00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:59.610\ndigital hub and that became you know really the the rallying cry for what made\n\n305\n00:16:59.610 --> 00:17:00.800\nApple great over\n\n306\n00:17:00.800 --> 00:17:05.960\nthe next decade as we made devices like iPods and phones and whatever so there\n\n307\n00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:06.400\nwas a strategy\n\n308\n00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.670\nabout the digital hub and that night after I heard him get all excited by the\n\n309\n00:17:10.670 --> 00:17:11.440\nET I started\n\n310\n00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.920\nto think about well if the future of the Mac's the digital hub we've built our\n\n311\n00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:16.800\nstore like most\n\n312\n00:17:16.800 --> 00:17:20.660\nretailers we're on products like you walk in a specialty service men's on the\n\n313\n00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:21.360\nleft and women's\n\n314\n00:17:21.360 --> 00:17:26.550\non the right we had portables on one side and laptops on the other and desktops\n\n315\n00:17:26.550 --> 00:17:27.360\non the other\n\n316\n00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:31.310\nand I realized that if it's the Mac's gonna be the digital hub we've got to\n\n317\n00:17:31.310 --> 00:17:32.080\nbuild a store\n\n318\n00:17:32.080 --> 00:17:37.600\naround movies and photos and music and things you do because that's how we're\n\n319\n00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:38.080\ngoing to win\n\n320\n00:17:38.080 --> 00:17:43.240\nand I came into Steve the next morning because every Tuesday we'd have our\n\n321\n00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.160\ndesign meeting\n\n322\n00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:48.860\nand he used to like to ride with me he's a drive me over in his car to the\n\n323\n00:17:48.860 --> 00:17:49.120\nwarehouse\n\n324\n00:17:49.120 --> 00:17:53.360\ninto 10 minute drive and we chat before about what we're going to do that day\n\n325\n00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.860\nand then I'd get a ride home with someone else but I said to Steve I said yeah\n\n326\n00:17:57.860 --> 00:17:58.320\nI didn't sleep\n\n327\n00:17:58.320 --> 00:18:01.390\nvery well I said I think I think we might have the store why he said what do\n\n328\n00:18:01.390 --> 00:18:02.480\nyou mean and I explained\n\n329\n00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:08.640\nto him about the digital hub and and he looked at me he says do you realize how\n\n330\n00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.960\nbig a effing change\n\n331\n00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:17.040\nthis is and I said yeah it's probably pretty big and he said well I am tired\n\n332\n00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:18.800\nand I don't know if I\n\n333\n00:18:18.800 --> 00:18:23.230\ntime to design another store so you might be right but let's not talk about it\n\n334\n00:18:23.230 --> 00:18:23.680\ntoday\n\n335\n00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:27.600\nand we walked out down the car didn't say a word all the way over to the\n\n336\n00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:31.920\nbubroad warehouse and then we walked in there's a group about 15 people 16\n\n337\n00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:32.880\npeople waiting for the\n\n338\n00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:39.520\nmeeting and I'm a little nervous but Steve walks in and goes all right well Ron\n\n339\n00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:41.280\ntold me today he\n\n340\n00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:49.040\nthinks the store is wrong and I thought about it and he's right and everything\n\n341\n00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:49.840\nI've done great in\n\n342\n00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:54.080\nmy life and he talked about movies like Toy Story he says you get to the end\n\n343\n00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:55.440\nand you think you've got\n\n344\n00:18:55.440 --> 00:19:02.370\nit and you realize there's a better way and you only get to do things once so I\n\n345\n00:19:02.370 --> 00:19:03.120\n'm going to leave\n\n346\n00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:09.280\nand Ron's going to help you redesign the store and I was kind of surprised but\n\n347\n00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:11.040\nthat led to about\n\n348\n00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:15.280\na six-month delay in our first store but we built the store around the digital\n\n349\n00:19:15.280 --> 00:19:16.240\nhub and that made a\n\n350\n00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:20.600\nhuge difference to the experience but what it showed to me is Steve's\n\n351\n00:19:20.600 --> 00:19:22.720\nextraordinary ability to listen\n\n352\n00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:29.370\nand to let the best ideas win and to be willing to change his mind and to make\n\n353\n00:19:29.370 --> 00:19:30.240\nsure that\n\n354\n00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:38.150\nApple only produced the best that we could imagine and that was that you know\n\n355\n00:19:38.150 --> 00:19:39.920\nBill Campbell\n\n356\n00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:45.110\nwho I know you know he was the legendary executive coach at Silicon Valley\n\n357\n00:19:45.110 --> 00:19:48.240\nwrote the book the trillion\n\n358\n00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:53.840\ntrillion dollar coach and he said he had this quote about you which was\n\n359\n00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:55.920\nunderneath that calm\n\n360\n00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:01.840\nas a boiling cauldron that's what he that was a quote he had about you what can\n\n361\n00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:02.960\nthat tell us about\n\n362\n00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:10.480\nwhat drives you as a leader like Steve very high standards and when I get\n\n363\n00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:19.440\nsomething in my mind I want to be done I am going to get that done and I do it\n\n364\n00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:20.880\nin a very kind way\n\n365\n00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:28.160\nbut I rely on us and always have that I was that way to design a target you\n\n366\n00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:29.200\nknow no one understood\n\n367\n00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.110\nwhat we were trying to do and I had to get everyone to get behind that and it\n\n368\n00:20:33.110 --> 00:20:34.480\nended up being great\n\n369\n00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.670\nbut it wasn't easy I want to ask you about that because you know you seem to\n\n370\n00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:40.800\nhave run the this\n\n371\n00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:46.350\nreal gift of seeing what other people don't see you know and how have you\n\n372\n00:20:46.350 --> 00:20:48.080\nlearned to take people\n\n373\n00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:53.760\nwith you you know sometimes you know they're just not at a place where they\n\n374\n00:20:53.760 --> 00:20:55.520\nmight understand or\n\n375\n00:20:55.520 --> 00:20:59.520\nor see where you're you're going so that's you're trying to drive massive\n\n376\n00:20:59.520 --> 00:21:01.440\nchange what's your process\n\n377\n00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.790\nfor taking people with you well you know as we'll talk later I'm sure I failed\n\n378\n00:21:05.790 --> 00:21:06.800\nmiserably at that\n\n379\n00:21:06.800 --> 00:21:11.920\nat JCPenney where I had a big vision and didn't take the team with me and that\n\n380\n00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:12.720\nwas the issue went\n\n381\n00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:23.990\ntoo fast but historically I've done that through one-to-one dialogue and the\n\n382\n00:21:23.990 --> 00:21:25.600\nwillingness to help\n\n383\n00:21:25.600 --> 00:21:29.810\nso like when I was at Target I ultimately I did you know get all Rick and\n\n384\n00:21:29.810 --> 00:21:31.200\npeople on board\n\n385\n00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:35.060\nbut it was getting my team that I worked for me to do it and I had six senior\n\n386\n00:21:35.060 --> 00:21:36.080\nbuyers and\n\n387\n00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:39.290\neach one had different product categories and we're going to design in every\n\n388\n00:21:39.290 --> 00:21:39.760\ncategory\n\n389\n00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:46.080\nso I had to just work with each of them one-on-one to really clearly explain to\n\n390\n00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:46.960\nthem why we were\n\n391\n00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:52.750\ndoing it how it impact the area how it was going to help you know and make sure\n\n392\n00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:54.000\nthey were bought\n\n393\n00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:59.830\napp and and and part of how I did that as I inspired them that this is going to\n\n394\n00:21:59.830 --> 00:22:01.120\ngive you a chance\n\n395\n00:22:01.120 --> 00:22:06.490\nto do something that no one's ever done before and there's nothing more grat\n\n396\n00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:08.240\nifying than doing\n\n397\n00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:14.800\nsomething original I said anybody can copy you know but when you have to create\n\n398\n00:22:14.800 --> 00:22:20.560\nthat's what's gratifying and and I really believe we were all born to create\n\n399\n00:22:20.560 --> 00:22:28.340\nyou know people want to have an impact and so I was really good at spending\n\n400\n00:22:28.340 --> 00:22:29.520\ntime with my team\n\n401\n00:22:29.520 --> 00:22:34.810\none-on-one you know I was definitely a managed by walking around person you\n\n402\n00:22:34.810 --> 00:22:36.000\nknow every day I'd\n\n403\n00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.800\nwake up in the morning what does this senior buyer need how do I help and I'd\n\n404\n00:22:40.800 --> 00:22:41.440\nsee them what\n\n405\n00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:46.630\ncan I do for you today how can I help I was never asking them I wasn't spending\n\n406\n00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:47.280\nmy time holding\n\n407\n00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:51.760\nthem accountable I was trying to support them and help them accomplish their\n\n408\n00:22:51.760 --> 00:22:54.160\ngoals and so I think\n\n409\n00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:59.350\nthe way you get people to buy in is it's easier with a big golden little goal\n\n410\n00:22:59.350 --> 00:23:01.040\npeople want to do\n\n411\n00:23:01.040 --> 00:23:05.500\nsignificant things they've got to know that you have their back and then they\n\n412\n00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:06.320\n'll buy in\n\n413\n00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:13.680\nyou know and Apple people I got to a point in whatever I we talked about we\n\n414\n00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.320\nknew we could\n\n415\n00:23:14.320 --> 00:23:20.480\naccomplish because we had such deep belief in our ability to change the world\n\n416\n00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:21.920\nwhen do you know\n\n417\n00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:27.110\nwhen to hold on the conviction that you have or when it's time to adjust\n\n418\n00:23:27.110 --> 00:23:28.480\nbecause you know\n\n419\n00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:32.640\nsometimes there's a lot of naysayers and there are a lot of people say\n\n420\n00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:34.000\nsometimes people say it\n\n421\n00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:39.120\ncan't be done every step of the way I mean you know how do you how do you deal\n\n422\n00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:40.160\nwith that mindset\n\n423\n00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:45.350\nwhen it when it seems to creep in you've got to find a way to get people on\n\n424\n00:23:45.350 --> 00:23:46.400\nyour team that\n\n425\n00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:51.590\naren't skeptics so someone has this kind of interesting question you know if\n\n426\n00:23:51.590 --> 00:23:53.200\nyou have a thousand\n\n427\n00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:58.360\npeople on team how many skeptics would you want to have and how many believers\n\n428\n00:23:58.360 --> 00:23:58.800\nwould you want to\n\n429\n00:23:58.800 --> 00:24:02.430\nhave here because you know there are people that are glass out full and glass\n\n430\n00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:03.040\nout empty\n\n431\n00:24:03.040 --> 00:24:08.930\nwell if you asked me I'd say if I had about 10 skeptics in the organization you\n\n432\n00:24:08.930 --> 00:24:10.560\nknow 1 percent\n\n433\n00:24:10.560 --> 00:24:15.040\nthat would be a lot and people think I'm crazy well you want your CFO to be a\n\n434\n00:24:15.040 --> 00:24:15.680\nskeptic\n\n435\n00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:21.920\nyou want your CFO to be really really demanding on the economics you probably\n\n436\n00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:22.640\nwant one of your\n\n437\n00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:28.830\noperators to be a skeptic but most people are out there creating they're trying\n\n438\n00:24:28.830 --> 00:24:29.520\nto help you\n\n439\n00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:34.710\nimplement something you dream of and so you've got to find a way of an\n\n440\n00:24:34.710 --> 00:24:35.760\norganization if you're\n\n441\n00:24:35.760 --> 00:24:42.500\ntrying to innovate that has belief as a core value a belief that you can change\n\n442\n00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:43.760\nthe world that's\n\n443\n00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:50.320\nthe crazy one Steve talked about in the think different campaign and you know\n\n444\n00:24:50.320 --> 00:24:51.200\nthe think different\n\n445\n00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:56.640\ncampaign that's celebrated individuals who change the world like Amelia Earhart\n\n446\n00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.120\nor Pablo Picasso\n\n447\n00:24:59.120 --> 00:25:04.480\nor people like that Einstein but in a company you got to change through people\n\n448\n00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:05.840\nso if you want\n\n449\n00:25:05.840 --> 00:25:11.000\nto be an innovative company you've got to find a way to get believers as a core\n\n450\n00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:11.840\npart of the people\n\n451\n00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:16.540\nthat do the work I really believe that and it doesn't mean that people can't\n\n452\n00:25:16.540 --> 00:25:17.440\nyou know throughout\n\n453\n00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:23.350\nchallenges but there's a difference between throwing out a challenge but you\n\n454\n00:25:23.350 --> 00:25:24.240\nbelieve in the mission\n\n455\n00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:31.220\nand being a cynic or being a skeptic which just can take the action out of\n\n456\n00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:32.080\ninnovation\n\n457\n00:25:32.080 --> 00:25:37.240\nhello friends I hope you're loving this conversation be sure to stay tuned to\n\n458\n00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:38.000\nthe very end of the\n\n459\n00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.860\nepisode as always David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he\n\n460\n00:25:41.860 --> 00:25:42.640\ntalks about\n\n461\n00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:47.120\nwith this week's guest so stay tuned to the very end and I will see you soon.\n\n462\n00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:52.720\nYou know when I was CEO of Young Brands you know we were really looking at how\n\n463\n00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.280\ndo we really\n\n464\n00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:58.720\nimprove our brand so we asked you come to come in and talk to us Ron about how\n\n465\n00:25:58.720 --> 00:25:59.280\nyou built the\n\n466\n00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:04.470\nretail experience at Apple because we were we were trying to do it in in our\n\n467\n00:26:04.470 --> 00:26:05.280\nour own way\n\n468\n00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:12.240\nand I remember you you saying back then that the best idea is start with the\n\n469\n00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:13.600\ncustomer not the\n\n470\n00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:20.760\ncompany you know walk me through how you design and and experience from a\n\n471\n00:26:20.760 --> 00:26:22.400\ncustomer point of view.\n\n472\n00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:28.670\nSo the way we did that at Apple is we had a very clear mission which was we're\n\n473\n00:26:28.670 --> 00:26:29.840\ngoing to\n\n474\n00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:35.000\nenrich lives which was the secular way of saying we're going to love our\n\n475\n00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:35.120\ncustomers\n\n476\n00:26:35.840 --> 00:26:39.440\nand that means that we are going to do everything we could to make\n\n477\n00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:45.200\na person's life better now that happened at a high level like designing the\n\n478\n00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:45.760\nstore\n\n479\n00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:49.920\nyou know you locate stores where they live their lives they're not to drive 10\n\n480\n00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.960\nmiles to get there\n\n481\n00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.320\nthey can go 10 feet out of their way all these things you do but at an\n\n482\n00:26:54.320 --> 00:26:56.560\nindividual level you know\n\n483\n00:26:56.560 --> 00:27:02.370\nif you tell the employee and we did this at Apple who's on the floor that your\n\n484\n00:27:02.370 --> 00:27:03.680\njob is to approach\n\n485\n00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:09.040\nevery customer with a warm welcome to pro politely to understand why do they\n\n486\n00:27:09.040 --> 00:27:10.080\ncome in the store what\n\n487\n00:27:10.080 --> 00:27:15.000\nare they hoping to accomplish and then to close the gap between what they want\n\n488\n00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:16.080\nto accomplish and\n\n489\n00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:21.240\nwhere they are and that's to present a solution that could change their life\n\n490\n00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.360\nright and when the\n\n491\n00:27:23.360 --> 00:27:28.550\nemployees did that and you know we had a million customers a day coming in I\n\n492\n00:27:28.550 --> 00:27:29.600\nwould tell people\n\n493\n00:27:29.600 --> 00:27:34.790\ndon't can hurry treat one customer great at a time close the gap and then as\n\n494\n00:27:34.790 --> 00:27:35.440\nthe ideas\n\n495\n00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:41.200\nthat were in common started to bubble up we would implement those rapidly\n\n496\n00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.440\nacross all of our stores\n\n497\n00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:49.920\nbut it was truly the the ideas came from an interaction between an employee\n\n498\n00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:51.120\ntrying to serve\n\n499\n00:27:51.120 --> 00:27:56.660\na customer and trying to close that gap and so that's how great companies I\n\n500\n00:27:56.660 --> 00:27:58.640\nthink deliver\n\n501\n00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:05.440\ncustomer service it is bottoms up as from empowering employees to make the\n\n502\n00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:06.080\ndecision on\n\n503\n00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:11.270\nbehalf of the customer to do the right thing how do you go about delegating\n\n504\n00:28:11.270 --> 00:28:12.640\nyourself you know\n\n505\n00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:18.640\nyou mentioned how jobs delegated with you how do you think about delegation as\n\n506\n00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.320\na as a leader I mean\n\n507\n00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:24.760\nwhen do you delegate I mean when do you cross that line to where hey I really\n\n508\n00:28:24.760 --> 00:28:26.400\ntrust you and now\n\n509\n00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:32.830\nand now I'm gonna let go you've got a sore with your strengths right so like\n\n510\n00:28:32.830 --> 00:28:34.800\nSteve my strength was\n\n511\n00:28:34.800 --> 00:28:46.320\nmy intuition it was design physical design of stores it was cultural\n\n512\n00:28:46.320 --> 00:28:48.080\nmaintenance you know\n\n513\n00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:53.710\nconnecting with people all that stuff and so I would hire people like a great C\n\n514\n00:28:53.710 --> 00:28:54.000\nFO\n\n515\n00:28:55.040 --> 00:29:01.120\nand I would let the CFO handle all the financial stuff and come to me as needed\n\n516\n00:29:01.120 --> 00:29:02.000\nbut that wasn't my\n\n517\n00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.370\njob now I had great reporting I have pretty close to a photographic memory so I\n\n518\n00:29:06.370 --> 00:29:07.280\ncould look at a sales\n\n519\n00:29:07.280 --> 00:29:11.260\nreport every day and look at five or in stores and remember what they did\n\n520\n00:29:11.260 --> 00:29:12.480\nliterally how did that\n\n521\n00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:16.600\nstory do I look do it's comp for yesterday I just remember that kind of stuff\n\n522\n00:29:16.600 --> 00:29:17.600\nbut but I let I\n\n523\n00:29:17.600 --> 00:29:23.220\ndelegated the areas that I wasn't particularly good at you know I could imagine\n\n524\n00:29:23.220 --> 00:29:24.320\nthe genius bar\n\n525\n00:29:24.320 --> 00:29:29.760\nbut I let someone figure out how to train geniuses and get the parts in stock\n\n526\n00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:30.800\nand make sure we could\n\n527\n00:29:30.800 --> 00:29:35.590\ndeliver next day repairs but I didn't get involved with the details of that but\n\n528\n00:29:35.590 --> 00:29:36.640\nI sure spent time\n\n529\n00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.790\npicking real estate designing stores I met every store leader before they came\n\n530\n00:29:40.790 --> 00:29:41.600\nbecause that was a\n\n531\n00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:48.310\nbig part of the culture so to me it comes down to how you decide to build your\n\n532\n00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:51.040\nteam to allow you to\n\n533\n00:29:51.040 --> 00:29:57.590\nsoar with your strengths and let others do the work that isn't something you're\n\n534\n00:29:57.590 --> 00:29:59.040\nnaturally excited\n\n535\n00:29:59.040 --> 00:30:03.370\nabout or great at you know what I mean and then when I'm working with the\n\n536\n00:30:03.370 --> 00:30:05.760\npeople I'm now creating\n\n537\n00:30:05.760 --> 00:30:10.150\ntogether because that most acts of creation come through conversations with\n\n538\n00:30:10.150 --> 00:30:12.240\nteams and so I spent\n\n539\n00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:17.460\nmost of my day in conversation with our design teams or store leader teams the\n\n540\n00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:18.640\npeople serving\n\n541\n00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:23.350\ncustomers all that stuff what did you look for and the leaders that you hired\n\n542\n00:30:23.350 --> 00:30:24.560\nfor the stores and\n\n543\n00:30:24.560 --> 00:30:28.650\nwhat was the most important thing that you thought they had to have they had to\n\n544\n00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:30.880\nhave a love of people\n\n545\n00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:38.720\nvery simple you know if you work in a store it's really hard work and you need\n\n546\n00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:39.600\nto have someone who\n\n547\n00:30:39.600 --> 00:30:44.790\njust wants to be on the floor they want to be out there in the middle of the\n\n548\n00:30:44.790 --> 00:30:45.840\naction where the\n\n549\n00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:51.360\ncustomers mean the employees and if the genius garbage gets backed up they want\n\n550\n00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:51.840\nto hop behind\n\n551\n00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:55.730\nthe bar and try to help people get through that thing how'd you find that Ron\n\n552\n00:30:55.730 --> 00:30:56.880\nhow'd you find that\n\n553\n00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:01.310\ntrait of you know it just seems intuitively honest yeah you want somebody to\n\n554\n00:31:01.310 --> 00:31:02.400\nlove the business love\n\n555\n00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:08.080\nthe customer but how did you get at the core of someone to understand that they\n\n556\n00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:09.520\nthey do they would\n\n557\n00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:13.610\nprovide that love you know I don't know I just that's what I talked about in\n\n558\n00:31:13.610 --> 00:31:14.880\nthe interview and I didn't\n\n559\n00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:19.600\nhave to ask him I asked for examples you know how do you spend your day tell me\n\n560\n00:31:19.600 --> 00:31:20.320\nabout something\n\n561\n00:31:20.320 --> 00:31:24.220\ngreat you've done in your life and through those conversations I was looking\n\n562\n00:31:24.220 --> 00:31:26.560\nfor you know clues as\n\n563\n00:31:26.560 --> 00:31:33.760\nto what that they could honor that but I think that's pretty easy to determine\n\n564\n00:31:33.760 --> 00:31:35.520\nin an interview\n\n565\n00:31:35.520 --> 00:31:40.680\nbut I would know I didn't have a formulaic list of questions I'd asked people\n\n566\n00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:41.440\nwould come in and I\n\n567\n00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.700\nwant to hear them talk about themselves because I wanted to hear you know what\n\n568\n00:31:46.700 --> 00:31:48.240\n's the most significant\n\n569\n00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.430\nthing you've done in your career when did you change the company you work for I\n\n570\n00:31:53.430 --> 00:31:54.560\nwant to get them\n\n571\n00:31:54.560 --> 00:31:59.710\ntalking about something meaningful they've done who are the best employees on\n\n572\n00:31:59.710 --> 00:32:00.400\nyour team what\n\n573\n00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:04.000\nwhat did you love about them you know all those kind of questions and they\n\n574\n00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.120\nwould just randomly\n\n575\n00:32:05.120 --> 00:32:09.170\nflow for an hour and at the end I kind of get a sense of that if this person\n\n576\n00:32:09.170 --> 00:32:10.080\nwould be a great\n\n577\n00:32:10.080 --> 00:32:13.840\nleader for Apple but I didn't have like a checklist of questions when I\n\n578\n00:32:13.840 --> 00:32:14.800\ninterviewed or\n\n579\n00:32:14.800 --> 00:32:20.960\nstandard approach because I really believe the best conversations have no\n\n580\n00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.120\nagenda you know it's\n\n581\n00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:31.920\ntwo people and through the conversation things get revealed because they are\n\n582\n00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:32.560\nopen it's like our\n\n583\n00:32:32.560 --> 00:32:35.720\nconversation here you and I didn't talk about what we're going to talk about\n\n584\n00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:37.040\nwho knows where it goes\n\n585\n00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:41.600\nbut I think it'll be more interesting that way and it will reveal things that\n\n586\n00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:42.480\npeople will connect\n\n587\n00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.670\nwith and that's also true for an interview to me you know you've said that\n\n588\n00:32:47.670 --> 00:32:49.120\nexcellence is the price\n\n589\n00:32:49.120 --> 00:32:52.750\nof admission that was one of the one of the quotes that I picked up from you\n\n590\n00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:54.640\nand and that's a great\n\n591\n00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:59.800\nobjective to have no question about it man but you had to you know you had to\n\n592\n00:32:59.800 --> 00:33:01.040\ninstill this across\n\n593\n00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:08.640\nthousands of employees so how as you as a leader that have all these employees\n\n594\n00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:16.000\nor team members that get up every day working on the the greatness of Apple how\n\n595\n00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:16.800\ndid you instill\n\n596\n00:33:16.800 --> 00:33:24.610\nthat value everything I did was to celebrate excellence excellence and great\n\n597\n00:33:24.610 --> 00:33:25.760\nstores great\n\n598\n00:33:25.760 --> 00:33:31.690\nlocations great customer experiences you know I would read all of our mps\n\n599\n00:33:31.690 --> 00:33:33.200\nanybody customer wrote\n\n600\n00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:38.480\na note that had more than you know 50 characters or something I get sent to me\n\n601\n00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:39.680\nand if it was great\n\n602\n00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:43.340\nI had a system that I could just type an email and go right to the employee to\n\n603\n00:33:43.340 --> 00:33:44.720\ndeliver that experience\n\n604\n00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:50.000\nand they would then share those with their friends and and their colleagues and\n\n605\n00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.480\nI just spent all my\n\n606\n00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:59.420\ntime celebrating excellence and I modeled it I think through the decisions I\n\n607\n00:33:59.420 --> 00:34:01.760\nmade but it became\n\n608\n00:34:01.760 --> 00:34:07.980\njust part of the culture and wherever I went it seemed like we had excellence I\n\n609\n00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:09.120\nmean it's crazy\n\n610\n00:34:09.120 --> 00:34:15.620\nbut we had that and even to this day you know like one of the things I always\n\n611\n00:34:15.620 --> 00:34:16.320\ndid is I\n\n612\n00:34:17.040 --> 00:34:22.200\ninterviewed every store leader before they joined Apple and then I asked the\n\n613\n00:34:22.200 --> 00:34:22.240\nleader\n\n614\n00:34:22.240 --> 00:34:27.430\nI want you to interview every employee before they begin to work in the store\n\n615\n00:34:27.430 --> 00:34:29.360\nbecause I want them\n\n616\n00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:34.940\nto know you well and when someone interviews for a job it's a real memorable\n\n617\n00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:36.640\nmoment I'm sure you\n\n618\n00:34:36.640 --> 00:34:42.370\nremember all your interviews early in your career when you want a job and if I\n\n619\n00:34:42.370 --> 00:34:45.200\ninterviewed everyone\n\n620\n00:34:45.200 --> 00:34:51.280\nwho led a store and they are everyone who was on the gonna work in the store\n\n621\n00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:52.800\nand they spent an\n\n622\n00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:58.350\nhour every employee in the store knew somebody who had spent an hour with me in\n\n623\n00:34:58.350 --> 00:35:00.400\nmy office so they\n\n624\n00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:06.010\nwere one degree of separation from knowing me and that kept us really small how\n\n625\n00:35:06.010 --> 00:35:07.360\nmany stores did\n\n626\n00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:11.040\nyou have when you when you left I write just under 400 we were back to over in\n\n627\n00:35:11.040 --> 00:35:12.400\nour 400 store we had\n\n628\n00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:18.000\n60,000 employees so for 60,000 employees you make it sound like oh you know\n\n629\n00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:19.120\njust go around I talked\n\n630\n00:35:19.120 --> 00:35:23.890\nto everybody and you know but you have 60,000 people there you know how did\n\n631\n00:35:23.890 --> 00:35:24.800\nyeah but they feel\n\n632\n00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:29.010\nbut it's amazing but how did you what was it was Ernie I know you hate big\n\n633\n00:35:29.010 --> 00:35:30.240\ncompanyitis and all\n\n634\n00:35:30.240 --> 00:35:35.550\nthat kind of stuff no I did I do videos for I send out videos to the team I'd\n\n635\n00:35:35.550 --> 00:35:36.720\nsend out notes\n\n636\n00:35:37.520 --> 00:35:44.800\nI'd visit stores a lot but it is shocking how people all felt like they knew me\n\n637\n00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:45.360\nI\n\n638\n00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:51.920\nperfect example I was in the south of France recently I went to an apple store\n\n639\n00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:53.600\nand it was a\n\n640\n00:35:53.600 --> 00:35:58.710\nstore at Copped Juan meal Copped 3000 a little shopping mall outside in East by\n\n641\n00:35:58.710 --> 00:35:59.280\nthe airport\n\n642\n00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:06.020\nand we opened that store in 2010 I believe it was when I was still there and in\n\n643\n00:36:06.020 --> 00:36:07.440\nthat store that day\n\n644\n00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:13.480\nI talked to and this is just last week 15 employees who remembered and could\n\n645\n00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:14.720\ntell a story about\n\n646\n00:36:14.720 --> 00:36:19.940\nworking with me 15 years ago I mean think about that and they remembered and\n\n647\n00:36:19.940 --> 00:36:21.200\nthey talked about\n\n648\n00:36:21.200 --> 00:36:24.970\nlessons and things you know it's amazing that there are people working in a\n\n649\n00:36:24.970 --> 00:36:26.080\nretail store 15\n\n650\n00:36:26.080 --> 00:36:31.890\nyears later but they loved their job but they still remembered me after all\n\n651\n00:36:31.890 --> 00:36:33.760\nthose years but I think\n\n652\n00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:38.090\nthere are leaders who are like that you know like Sam Walton was one of those\n\n653\n00:36:38.090 --> 00:36:38.400\nguys\n\n654\n00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:42.780\nyou know you look at the impact he had on Walmart's culture they had a lot more\n\n655\n00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:43.520\nstores than we had\n\n656\n00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:50.340\nan apple but he bled that you know and I and maybe Phil Knight had that impact\n\n657\n00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:52.320\nat Nike and Howard\n\n658\n00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:58.170\nSchultz at Starbucks some people who really love the customer it shows up so\n\n659\n00:36:58.170 --> 00:36:59.440\nmuch that it just\n\n660\n00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:04.880\ngets down there and you got a trust that it will and so I don't really have a\n\n661\n00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:05.360\ngood answer\n\n662\n00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:09.640\nof how it got there but I know that's how people felt when you walk into an\n\n663\n00:37:09.640 --> 00:37:11.280\napple store today\n\n664\n00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:15.280\nyou know what do you see there that you just kind of have a quiet smile and say\n\n665\n00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:16.160\nhey I really\n\n666\n00:37:16.160 --> 00:37:20.320\nknow the story behind us and it really wasn't that easy to do you know what do\n\n667\n00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:21.200\nyou see is a\n\n668\n00:37:21.200 --> 00:37:25.360\nparticular thing and there's you kind of smile and say hey it's here because\n\n669\n00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:26.560\nyou know not everybody\n\n670\n00:37:26.560 --> 00:37:31.750\nthought it was a great idea at the time but maybe I did well one is the store\n\n671\n00:37:31.750 --> 00:37:32.320\ndesign even though\n\n672\n00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.480\nthey're I think nicer materials whatever it's essentially exactly what we\n\n673\n00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:38.000\ndesigned years ago so\n\n674\n00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:44.640\nit feels fresh but it's been 25 years and the same idea products on display\n\n675\n00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:45.760\neasy to touch\n\n676\n00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:52.000\nloaded with all the apps packed with employees interesting people well trained\n\n677\n00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:53.360\ndress casually\n\n678\n00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:58.550\nin a t-shirt very approachable you know and then the back half of the store\n\n679\n00:37:58.550 --> 00:37:59.280\nfilled with people\n\n680\n00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.580\ngetting help genius bars training personal setup you know I just see\n\n681\n00:38:04.580 --> 00:38:06.720\nconnections between people\n\n682\n00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:13.540\nemployees and customers with a lot of smiles you know and that's what turns me\n\n683\n00:38:13.540 --> 00:38:14.320\non it's not\n\n684\n00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:19.600\nthe physical design it's the interaction between the customer and the employee\n\n685\n00:38:19.600 --> 00:38:20.560\nand\n\n686\n00:38:21.520 --> 00:38:29.520\nI just love these packed stores with people engaged you know and people thought\n\n687\n00:38:29.520 --> 00:38:29.760\nit would\n\n688\n00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:36.650\nbe really hard to create a service culture that would be transformative and I\n\n689\n00:38:36.650 --> 00:38:38.240\nthink we did that\n\n690\n00:38:38.240 --> 00:38:42.940\npretty well we created a place to belong and I honestly I think the teams did\n\n691\n00:38:42.940 --> 00:38:43.680\nit all the people\n\n692\n00:38:43.680 --> 00:38:49.360\nI hired the store leaders the training teams the HR teams it wasn't me I just\n\n693\n00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:50.560\nset the vision\n\n694\n00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:57.110\nbut it's continued and that's pretty exciting you know you had all the success\n\n695\n00:38:57.110 --> 00:38:58.320\nat Apple and then\n\n696\n00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:02.530\nyou were created to go be the CEO of JC Penny which you mentioned a few few\n\n697\n00:39:02.530 --> 00:39:03.520\nminutes ago\n\n698\n00:39:03.520 --> 00:39:07.830\ntell us about that experience and and what you learned it was an unfortunate\n\n699\n00:39:07.830 --> 00:39:08.720\nthing because\n\n700\n00:39:08.720 --> 00:39:15.920\nI uh I turned 50 I kind of looked at my career in decades I'd spent a decade at\n\n701\n00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:17.440\nTarget a little\n\n702\n00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:22.140\nover a decade at Apple and as much fun as I was having my work had become a\n\n703\n00:39:22.140 --> 00:39:23.040\nhobby at Apple we had\n\n704\n00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:26.580\nsuch a good team every store we opened one was better than the next they were\n\n705\n00:39:26.580 --> 00:39:28.240\nflourishing and\n\n706\n00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:33.990\nI kind of wanted to do something really challenging again and a couple guys had\n\n707\n00:39:33.990 --> 00:39:35.680\nmade a big investment\n\n708\n00:39:35.680 --> 00:39:40.890\nin JC Penny and we're looking at the ability to add a board member so they\n\n709\n00:39:40.890 --> 00:39:42.000\ncalled me to\n\n710\n00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:46.400\nbecome a board member so that sounds fun and then two months later the CEO had\n\n711\n00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:47.360\na car accident\n\n712\n00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:52.460\nand here's a little older a really nice guy named Mike Elman who's since passed\n\n713\n00:39:52.460 --> 00:39:53.120\naway but\n\n714\n00:39:53.120 --> 00:39:56.740\nthe board thought well maybe we should try to see if Ronald be the CEO because\n\n715\n00:39:56.740 --> 00:39:58.080\nthey were worried about\n\n716\n00:39:58.080 --> 00:40:04.480\na succession plan and I just thought that'd be really fun to try to do I had\n\n717\n00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:05.360\ngrown up\n\n718\n00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:10.690\ntwo miles from the first enclosed shopping mall in the world at Southdale\n\n719\n00:40:10.690 --> 00:40:11.440\nCenter in\n\n720\n00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:17.400\nsuburban Minneapolis I had grown up at Mirvin's competing with pennies pennies\n\n721\n00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:18.880\nhad a great history\n\n722\n00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:24.920\nthe department store had been struggling pretty massively in the u.s wouldn't\n\n723\n00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:25.840\nit be fun to go\n\n724\n00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:30.000\ntry to see if you can't turn around at a department store I created things at\n\n725\n00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:31.120\nTarget Met Apple and\n\n726\n00:40:31.120 --> 00:40:36.880\nApple and I'll try to make something great again and uh I decided to do that uh\n\n727\n00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:38.240\nthen unfortunately\n\n728\n00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:42.940\nright before I was being announced Steve called me in and he supported my going\n\n729\n00:40:42.940 --> 00:40:43.600\nbut he said Ron I\n\n730\n00:40:43.600 --> 00:40:47.460\ngotta tell you unfortunately this is for you only but I've only got six months\n\n731\n00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:49.280\nto live and I'd love\n\n732\n00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:54.470\nyou to stay here with me if you could is there any way you can delay you're\n\n733\n00:40:54.470 --> 00:40:55.680\ngoing to pennies for\n\n734\n00:40:55.680 --> 00:41:01.040\nsix months and I said of course and so I had to call up we had the announcement\n\n735\n00:41:01.040 --> 00:41:02.240\ncoming in two or\n\n736\n00:41:02.240 --> 00:41:08.980\nthree days and so I had to delay coming but during that time you know I was\n\n737\n00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:10.720\nleaving Apple I spent a\n\n738\n00:41:10.720 --> 00:41:15.910\nlot of time trying to imagine what we would do at JCPenney and I got to know\n\n739\n00:41:15.910 --> 00:41:16.880\nthe teams I'd spend\n\n740\n00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.880\na week a month with the team there as I did then I started getting nervous\n\n741\n00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:22.400\nbecause the team didn't\n\n742\n00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:26.360\nseem to want to change and I've been told that by the board they wanted to\n\n743\n00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:28.240\nchange and so I I put\n\n744\n00:41:28.240 --> 00:41:33.620\ntogether a plan for what I wanted to do and I went to the board in September I\n\n745\n00:41:33.620 --> 00:41:34.880\nwas going to start\n\n746\n00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:38.430\nNovember and I said hey you know I'm nervous the team doesn't want to change\n\n747\n00:41:38.430 --> 00:41:39.280\nand you know I don't\n\n748\n00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:45.020\nwant to come unless we're all in and I laid out a vision for what I wanted to\n\n749\n00:41:45.020 --> 00:41:46.480\ndo and I felt because\n\n750\n00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:51.190\nI didn't want to come if the board wasn't on board and they are really excited\n\n751\n00:41:51.190 --> 00:41:52.320\nabout it and they said\n\n752\n00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:56.720\nno no this is what we have to do blah blah blah I said okay and so then I\n\n753\n00:41:56.720 --> 00:41:58.800\nstarted in November and\n\n754\n00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.820\nI went to the board and I said you know if you're going to make a change in a\n\n755\n00:42:01.820 --> 00:42:02.880\nretail organization\n\n756\n00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:08.480\nthe time to do is February because that's when Christmas is done you change all\n\n757\n00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:09.200\nthe merchandise\n\n758\n00:42:09.200 --> 00:42:12.410\nit's just the right time to make a change so we have a choice we do it this\n\n759\n00:42:12.410 --> 00:42:14.160\nyear or a year from now\n\n760\n00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:19.310\nand the board said what do we got to lose let's go now and I should have said\n\n761\n00:42:19.310 --> 00:42:20.400\nwe had a lot to lose\n\n762\n00:42:21.120 --> 00:42:26.480\nbut what that what happened there is because we were going to change so much\n\n763\n00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:27.840\nliterally three\n\n764\n00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:34.060\nmonths after I started there was no time for me to really build that vision\n\n765\n00:42:34.060 --> 00:42:35.280\nwith the team\n\n766\n00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:38.880\nall I could do was say here's what Ron wants to do here's what we're going to\n\n767\n00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:40.640\ndo and quite frankly\n\n768\n00:42:40.640 --> 00:42:44.690\nthe team didn't buy into it they didn't understand it and I don't blame them\n\n769\n00:42:44.690 --> 00:42:45.840\nyou know it takes time\n\n770\n00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:53.440\nfor a mature organization to make change but we moved way too fast and it\n\n771\n00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:54.800\nturned out it was too\n\n772\n00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.080\nfast for board members once we made the change they're going whoa I didn't\n\n773\n00:42:59.080 --> 00:43:00.800\nrealize it was going\n\n774\n00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.680\nto be this much we're not going to run a sale we've done 99 percent of our\n\n775\n00:43:04.680 --> 00:43:06.080\nmerchandise at 60\n\n776\n00:43:06.080 --> 00:43:10.350\npercent off and everything's at full price and I said well now it's 60 percent\n\n777\n00:43:10.350 --> 00:43:11.200\noff every day\n\n778\n00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:17.200\nbut you know board didn't understand it customers didn't investors didn't and\n\n779\n00:43:17.200 --> 00:43:18.880\nit became a hugely\n\n780\n00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:24.550\nyou might remember a very visible business transformation I thought a little\n\n781\n00:43:24.550 --> 00:43:25.040\ncompany like\n\n782\n00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:29.230\nJCPenney and Retail would be so different than Apple that I'd be working out of\n\n783\n00:43:29.230 --> 00:43:29.840\nthe radar\n\n784\n00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:35.200\nit became a big business story at that time I believe oh yeah it was a huge\n\n785\n00:43:35.200 --> 00:43:36.480\nhuge business story\n\n786\n00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:41.180\nand you know everybody thought you know initially the genius comes in from\n\n787\n00:43:41.180 --> 00:43:42.240\nApple you're going to\n\n788\n00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:47.440\ntransform it you moved very quickly you know it's sort of like success has many\n\n789\n00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:48.320\nfathers failure\n\n790\n00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:52.180\nonly a bastard you well you quickly ended up on the other end of the equation\n\n791\n00:43:52.180 --> 00:43:53.120\nyeah you definitely\n\n792\n00:43:53.120 --> 00:43:58.640\nit was a abject failure in business at that point in time you know but you know\n\n793\n00:43:58.640 --> 00:44:00.640\nI have to ask you\n\n794\n00:44:00.640 --> 00:44:06.350\nyou know you build Apple you know from basically nothing to 400 stores by the\n\n795\n00:44:06.350 --> 00:44:07.680\ntime you left you go\n\n796\n00:44:07.680 --> 00:44:12.930\nto JCPenney huge huge organization you know you know there's big differences\n\n797\n00:44:12.930 --> 00:44:14.240\nwhen you're growing\n\n798\n00:44:14.240 --> 00:44:19.050\nsomething from the beginning versus you go into an established organization you\n\n799\n00:44:19.050 --> 00:44:19.840\nknow what did you\n\n800\n00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.180\npick up there what would you really do differently I wouldn't change the vision\n\n801\n00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:26.720\nat all I would have\n\n802\n00:44:26.720 --> 00:44:32.160\nyou know listened and adapted it but the vision was not the problem it was all\n\n803\n00:44:32.160 --> 00:44:34.000\nthe implementation\n\n804\n00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:42.080\nand if I had gone there and said to the board the first year I am going to\n\n805\n00:44:42.080 --> 00:44:43.360\nreduce our costs\n\n806\n00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:51.420\nget our profit formula right get the right team to execute a transformation of\n\n807\n00:44:51.420 --> 00:44:52.640\nthe order of magnitude\n\n808\n00:44:52.640 --> 00:44:58.240\nI'm gonna we're gonna go through we're gonna take a year to prepare a self for\n\n809\n00:44:58.240 --> 00:44:59.920\nthis and that would\n\n810\n00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:04.710\nhave given me the time really ahead of the apple to build my team and roll out\n\n811\n00:45:04.710 --> 00:45:05.920\nthe first stores\n\n812\n00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:11.080\nright and so I really think the speed at which we move calls all the problems\n\n813\n00:45:11.080 --> 00:45:11.760\nbecause once you\n\n814\n00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:18.860\nmade the move everything got complicated investors whatever but if I had you\n\n815\n00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:20.080\nknow found the right\n\n816\n00:45:20.080 --> 00:45:25.830\npeople to lead the transformation got our cost structure right and then rolled\n\n817\n00:45:25.830 --> 00:45:26.800\nout things at a\n\n818\n00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:31.630\ndifferent pace for example you know I think we would have done really well now\n\n819\n00:45:31.630 --> 00:45:32.560\nit might not have\n\n820\n00:45:32.560 --> 00:45:36.160\nbecome America's favorite store library but I think pennies would have\n\n821\n00:45:36.160 --> 00:45:37.520\nperformed exceptionally\n\n822\n00:45:37.520 --> 00:45:45.490\nbetter than it did and so I would just totally transform the people how I\n\n823\n00:45:45.490 --> 00:45:47.200\napproach people because\n\n824\n00:45:47.200 --> 00:45:51.530\nI want to just I believe I could convince people is the right thing to do I had\n\n825\n00:45:51.530 --> 00:45:52.240\nto change some\n\n826\n00:45:52.240 --> 00:45:56.720\npeople and I would have taken the time to get the organization to feel like was\n\n827\n00:45:56.720 --> 00:45:57.360\nour store\n\n828\n00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:04.290\nand not Ron's store you know our store not the tech guy's store I was kind of\n\n829\n00:46:04.290 --> 00:46:05.680\nacting like the\n\n830\n00:46:05.680 --> 00:46:11.430\nsavior they didn't want and I had to become the leader that would inspire them\n\n831\n00:46:11.430 --> 00:46:12.400\nand I did not\n\n832\n00:46:13.040 --> 00:46:18.960\ntake the time to do that and so I really failed I appreciate that honesty but\n\n833\n00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:20.000\nthere's tremendous\n\n834\n00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:24.740\nlearning from that and you know and and you know I got to ask you this one you\n\n835\n00:46:24.740 --> 00:46:26.080\nknow because it's like\n\n836\n00:46:26.080 --> 00:46:30.780\neverything you touch prior you basically hit a home run on I mean you know I\n\n837\n00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:31.680\nwould seem like\n\n838\n00:46:31.680 --> 00:46:35.440\nthat way yeah well you know you look back I mean look what look what you did\n\n839\n00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:36.240\nincredible\n\n840\n00:46:36.240 --> 00:46:40.960\nincredibly you're you are a legend in retail you're like a Mickey Drexler who I\n\n841\n00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:41.680\nknow was on the app\n\n842\n00:46:41.680 --> 00:46:46.460\nApple board and I did a podcast with and you know and Steve Jobs went to him\n\n843\n00:46:46.460 --> 00:46:46.880\nand put him on\n\n844\n00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:50.360\nthe board because he wanted to learn retail he brought you in because you were\n\n845\n00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:51.120\nthe retail guru\n\n846\n00:46:51.120 --> 00:46:56.960\nyou know so everything you touched has been a home run what was it like for you\n\n847\n00:46:56.960 --> 00:46:57.840\npsychologically\n\n848\n00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:03.030\nto strike out because it happens to us all I mean I I'm the father of crystal\n\n849\n00:47:03.030 --> 00:47:04.080\nPepsi for God's sake\n\n850\n00:47:04.080 --> 00:47:10.870\nyou know yeah there you go that's a good one no I it was so hard and honestly I\n\n851\n00:47:10.870 --> 00:47:11.760\nwasn't ready for\n\n852\n00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:18.410\nit my unfortunately my best friend in life my father my brother's also very\n\n853\n00:47:18.410 --> 00:47:21.280\nclose passed away\n\n854\n00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:27.780\nwhile I was at pennies Steve had passed away I really felt on my own and as you\n\n855\n00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:29.280\nknow being a CEO\n\n856\n00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:35.530\nyou know you're responsible for everything and it can be very lonely and I went\n\n857\n00:47:35.530 --> 00:47:37.360\nfrom living this life\n\n858\n00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:45.440\nof filled with success and positivity to being alone down in Texas in a hotel\n\n859\n00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:47.920\njust getting everything\n\n860\n00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:54.840\nI would read was why is this guy doing this who is this idiot it was really\n\n861\n00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:57.520\nhard and and quite frankly\n\n862\n00:47:57.520 --> 00:48:02.680\nI wish I had had done some things different to support myself I wish I'd spend\n\n863\n00:48:02.680 --> 00:48:03.600\nmore time with\n\n864\n00:48:03.600 --> 00:48:07.600\nsome people I brought in to hey here's where I'm struggling with but I you know\n\n865\n00:48:07.600 --> 00:48:08.160\neventually\n\n866\n00:48:08.160 --> 00:48:12.980\nI walked away I went to the board and said look it's been a year if you want to\n\n867\n00:48:12.980 --> 00:48:14.080\ngo back I'm not\n\n868\n00:48:14.080 --> 00:48:17.130\ngoing to stand your way I'm not you know this is not a difficult year for all\n\n869\n00:48:17.130 --> 00:48:18.640\nof us and if you want\n\n870\n00:48:18.640 --> 00:48:21.970\nto make a U-turn the sooner you do it the better I don't think it's going to\n\n871\n00:48:21.970 --> 00:48:23.040\nwork out very well\n\n872\n00:48:23.680 --> 00:48:28.120\nand I'm happy to stay on but we got to be all in but if you want to make a\n\n873\n00:48:28.120 --> 00:48:29.280\nchange go ahead\n\n874\n00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:33.980\nand then month after month for three months I could tell by their questions I\n\n875\n00:48:33.980 --> 00:48:34.880\nsaid look\n\n876\n00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:39.620\nif you don't want to do this find somebody else but I am not going to throw us\n\n877\n00:48:39.620 --> 00:48:40.160\nback into\n\n878\n00:48:40.160 --> 00:48:44.280\nthat promotional mess that created the problem at the beginning and so\n\n879\n00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.480\neventually I resigned and\n\n880\n00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:53.150\nlaughed after three efforts to do that and I was really glad when I left but\n\n881\n00:48:53.150 --> 00:48:54.720\nlooking back you know\n\n882\n00:48:54.720 --> 00:49:00.600\nwhat happened was what I expected the stock went down 50% under Mike when he\n\n883\n00:49:00.600 --> 00:49:02.320\ncame back it went down\n\n884\n00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:08.800\n50% again when Marvin did and now it's basically open so Simon doesn't have to\n\n885\n00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:09.440\nlet everyone out of\n\n886\n00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:15.470\ntheir potency clauses you know so pennies exist because the malls it's in they\n\n887\n00:49:15.470 --> 00:49:17.120\n're required to keep\n\n888\n00:49:17.120 --> 00:49:22.690\nit open our people can leave and the leases all go away so I feel badly that\n\n889\n00:49:22.690 --> 00:49:24.400\nyou know I really\n\n890\n00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:29.760\nprobably caused the demise of pennies because of the not sticking it out if you\n\n891\n00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.160\nwill but it's tough\n\n892\n00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:37.350\nyou know I want to shift gears here and I want to take you back a lot further\n\n893\n00:49:37.350 --> 00:49:38.080\nand what's the\n\n894\n00:49:38.080 --> 00:49:42.790\nstory Ron from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you've become well\n\n895\n00:49:42.790 --> 00:49:43.760\nI think the\n\n896\n00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:49.350\nbig one was it's good we've been through the World Cup and I was a pretty good\n\n897\n00:49:49.350 --> 00:49:51.440\nathlete and in\n\n898\n00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:56.630\nninth grade I decided to quit football and play soccer and soccer was a new\n\n899\n00:49:56.630 --> 00:49:59.760\nsport you know for a\n\n900\n00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:03.980\nlot of people and most of the great athletes were playing football anyway so I\n\n901\n00:50:03.980 --> 00:50:05.120\njoined the soccer\n\n902\n00:50:05.120 --> 00:50:09.820\nteam my junior year I started I got pulled up my sophomore year junior year I\n\n903\n00:50:09.820 --> 00:50:10.720\nwas picked to be\n\n904\n00:50:10.720 --> 00:50:17.580\ncaptain we only won two games that year but my high school was like known for\n\n905\n00:50:17.580 --> 00:50:19.040\nstate championships\n\n906\n00:50:19.040 --> 00:50:24.230\nand basketball and football and hockey and baseball but we've never done any\n\n907\n00:50:24.230 --> 00:50:25.040\nsoccer and I wanted to\n\n908\n00:50:25.040 --> 00:50:30.540\nplay on a championship team and so I called a meeting once I became captain at\n\n909\n00:50:30.540 --> 00:50:32.000\nthe end of my\n\n910\n00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:37.200\njunior year and a hundred kids showed up and I said you know here's my dream\n\n911\n00:50:37.200 --> 00:50:38.240\nnext year we are\n\n912\n00:50:38.240 --> 00:50:42.510\ngoing to the state championship that means we got to be one of the four best\n\n913\n00:50:42.510 --> 00:50:43.440\nteams in the state\n\n914\n00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:49.200\nbut realistically even though we've only got two returning starters and we only\n\n915\n00:50:49.200 --> 00:50:50.320\nwon two games\n\n916\n00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:55.510\nif we commit we can do this because the reality there are many people that are\n\n917\n00:50:55.510 --> 00:50:56.480\nvery good at soccer\n\n918\n00:50:57.040 --> 00:51:00.930\nand if we and so I said we're going to start every night in the winter in our\n\n919\n00:51:00.930 --> 00:51:01.680\nfield house\n\n920\n00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:06.870\nwe're going to kick the ball around and play small games when the snow melts we\n\n921\n00:51:06.870 --> 00:51:07.680\ncan go to camps\n\n922\n00:51:07.680 --> 00:51:14.220\nwe can join summer leagues and we're going to go to the state tournament and\n\n923\n00:51:14.220 --> 00:51:15.040\nyou know I kind of\n\n924\n00:51:15.040 --> 00:51:20.230\nset a big bold vision and lo and behold when it got time for the state\n\n925\n00:51:20.230 --> 00:51:22.000\ntournament we tied our first\n\n926\n00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:25.350\ngame we're the number one team in the state of Minnesota going in the state\n\n927\n00:51:25.350 --> 00:51:27.200\ntournament and we\n\n928\n00:51:27.200 --> 00:51:33.200\nlost an overtime in the semifinals won the consolation game but for me it just\n\n929\n00:51:33.200 --> 00:51:34.160\nproved that\n\n930\n00:51:34.160 --> 00:51:40.130\nif you set a big goal and have a strategy you can do anything you want and you\n\n931\n00:51:40.130 --> 00:51:41.200\nknow all my career I\n\n932\n00:51:41.200 --> 00:51:45.420\nthink that's looking back I just wanted to have that experience of trying to do\n\n933\n00:51:45.420 --> 00:51:46.560\nsomething really big\n\n934\n00:51:46.560 --> 00:51:51.790\nand hard to get and it was really fun yeah you learned how to dream big pretty\n\n935\n00:51:51.790 --> 00:51:52.800\nearly I would say\n\n936\n00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:58.490\nI learned how to dream big early and I became an optimist for a lifetime you\n\n937\n00:51:58.490 --> 00:51:59.920\nknow but that was\n\n938\n00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:04.000\nthe story you know how did you get into retail in the first place I know you\n\n939\n00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:05.280\nyou know yeah I was\n\n940\n00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:09.000\nthat I was that I had worked at I went to Harvard Business School and I worked\n\n941\n00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:10.320\nat Solomon Brothers in\n\n942\n00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:10.980\nsummer I looked at all the you know investment banks I got an offer from\n\n943\n00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:16.080\nGoldman Sam and A Group\n\n944\n00:52:16.080 --> 00:52:23.520\nbut I went through I took out all the cases we had 400 cases my first year and\n\n945\n00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:24.240\nI said you know the\n\n946\n00:52:24.240 --> 00:52:28.680\nCEOs I admire they've done what they've done for a lifetime so what would I\n\n947\n00:52:28.680 --> 00:52:29.440\nenjoy and I\n\n948\n00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:34.150\nmade a pile of industries I wouldn't like and things I would and everything I\n\n949\n00:52:34.150 --> 00:52:35.520\nliked was retail\n\n950\n00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:40.820\nor consumer marketing and then I said well what if I went into retail I liked\n\n951\n00:52:40.820 --> 00:52:42.080\nbeing in stores\n\n952\n00:52:42.080 --> 00:52:46.560\nthe reality is it's a young person's business back when I graduated from\n\n953\n00:52:46.560 --> 00:52:47.280\nbusiness school that was\n\n954\n00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:51.170\nwhen Mickey had just taken over CEO of the Gap he was transforming it\n\n955\n00:52:51.170 --> 00:52:52.560\nespecially stores were\n\n956\n00:52:52.560 --> 00:52:58.600\nhappening I said what if I went and tried to become a world-class retailer and\n\n957\n00:52:58.600 --> 00:53:00.000\nso I took a job out of\n\n958\n00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:05.190\nHarvard Business School one-third of the golden salary on loading trucks in a\n\n959\n00:53:05.190 --> 00:53:06.640\nmoving store in\n\n960\n00:53:06.640 --> 00:53:11.970\nsouthern California and I just started learning retail and that's how I got\n\n961\n00:53:11.970 --> 00:53:12.560\ninto it\n\n962\n00:53:12.560 --> 00:53:19.350\nand and it worked out okay and now you've you've gone back and put your career\n\n963\n00:53:19.350 --> 00:53:20.960\njourney down on paper\n\n964\n00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:26.150\nin this new book called shop different what's something you've learned about\n\n965\n00:53:26.150 --> 00:53:28.000\nyourself Ron just\n\n966\n00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:32.700\nrecalling all these stories that that what have you learned about yourself that\n\n967\n00:53:32.700 --> 00:53:33.600\n's that surprised\n\n968\n00:53:33.600 --> 00:53:37.880\nyourself well here's what surprised me the most you know my dad was a business\n\n969\n00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:38.480\nguy and\n\n970\n00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:44.780\ninvolved with my career but the person who impacted my career the most was my\n\n971\n00:53:44.780 --> 00:53:45.120\nmom\n\n972\n00:53:45.120 --> 00:53:50.530\nand I didn't realize that you know I think a lot of us don't take time until\n\n973\n00:53:50.530 --> 00:53:52.000\nyou write a book to\n\n974\n00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:58.240\nreally understand the decisions you made at the pivotal points in your life\n\n975\n00:53:58.240 --> 00:54:01.520\nwhat inspired those\n\n976\n00:54:01.520 --> 00:54:09.390\nand for me it was my childhood it was the home I grew up in it was my mom who\n\n977\n00:54:09.390 --> 00:54:09.680\nwas\n\n978\n00:54:09.680 --> 00:54:16.640\nthe best servant I've ever met I mean she literally wanted to make sure she had\n\n979\n00:54:16.640 --> 00:54:16.800\na\n\n980\n00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:21.130\nwhen a birthday someone had a birthday a friend of hers she would write the\n\n981\n00:54:21.130 --> 00:54:21.440\ncard\n\n982\n00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:27.190\nnot put in the mailbox because the Pio Pio the mail postal service could screw\n\n983\n00:54:27.190 --> 00:54:27.680\nup\n\n984\n00:54:27.680 --> 00:54:30.480\nshe would get up in the morning hear the car start she would drive to their\n\n985\n00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:30.800\nhouse\n\n986\n00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:35.500\nsix in the morning put in the mailbox to make sure it was there that day you\n\n987\n00:54:35.500 --> 00:54:35.680\nknow\n\n988\n00:54:35.680 --> 00:54:43.040\nshe would when when I was captain of the soccer team every night before a game\n\n989\n00:54:43.040 --> 00:54:44.480\nshe had the\n\n990\n00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:50.050\n30 odd players over to her house for spaghetti we'd have a pasta dinner at four\n\n991\n00:54:50.050 --> 00:54:50.720\no'clock\n\n992\n00:54:50.720 --> 00:54:56.880\nbefore our seven o'clock games she would serve people till she passed out being\n\n993\n00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:57.360\ntired\n\n994\n00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:02.640\nand she was just an exceptionally kind person and my whole life I just like\n\n995\n00:55:02.640 --> 00:55:03.680\nbeing kind to people I\n\n996\n00:55:03.680 --> 00:55:08.080\nlike serve people and and where did that come from where did the apple dream to\n\n997\n00:55:08.080 --> 00:55:09.120\nlove our customers\n\n998\n00:55:09.120 --> 00:55:14.560\nit came from my childhood it's where I grew up and I never really understood\n\n999\n00:55:14.560 --> 00:55:16.240\nthat it wasn't like\n\n1000\n00:55:16.240 --> 00:55:21.400\na business strategy I learned at Harvard it was creating a place people would\n\n1001\n00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:22.080\nbelong I look back\n\n1002\n00:55:22.080 --> 00:55:26.160\nand that's what my childhood felt like my home was a place to belong so you\n\n1003\n00:55:26.160 --> 00:55:27.440\nknow this has been so\n\n1004\n00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:31.870\nmuch fun run and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions\n\n1005\n00:55:31.870 --> 00:55:32.640\nso are you ready\n\n1006\n00:55:32.640 --> 00:55:39.040\nfor this yeah the three words that best describe you optimistic kind positive\n\n1007\n00:55:39.040 --> 00:55:40.720\nif you could be one\n\n1008\n00:55:40.720 --> 00:55:46.320\nperson for a day beside yourself who would it be oh I'd love to be Leonel messy\n\n1009\n00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:48.560\nyour biggest pet peeve\n\n1010\n00:55:48.560 --> 00:55:55.280\nnegativity your all-time favorite apple product my iPhone favorite Steve Jobs\n\n1011\n00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:56.880\nquote the journey is\n\n1012\n00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:04.530\nthe reward your dream force him in golf dead or alive Steph Curry I'm Scottie\n\n1013\n00:56:04.530 --> 00:56:05.280\nScheffler\n\n1014\n00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:08.400\nI'd love to play with my brother-in-law he's my favorite one to play golf if we\n\n1015\n00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:09.360\nplay all the time\n\n1016\n00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:13.600\nand he would love playing with Scottie and stuff what's something you've been\n\n1017\n00:56:13.600 --> 00:56:14.640\ncurious about lately\n\n1018\n00:56:14.640 --> 00:56:19.840\nthat has nothing to do with work a boating I always wanted to have a boat I\n\n1019\n00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:21.280\nbought a boat and I've\n\n1020\n00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:26.840\nbeen learning to navigate the sea I have a boat down and I keep it in the\n\n1021\n00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:29.200\nMediterranean and it's\n\n1022\n00:56:29.200 --> 00:56:34.120\nreally challenging to figure out you know everything you have to do when you do\n\n1023\n00:56:34.120 --> 00:56:36.000\nboating and I find it\n\n1024\n00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:39.680\nreally fun to be on the boat but I love learning new things and that's been\n\n1025\n00:56:39.680 --> 00:56:40.800\ngreat the one thing you\n\n1026\n00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:45.500\ndo just for you carve out free time you know to make sure I have enough time\n\n1027\n00:56:45.500 --> 00:56:47.280\nfor myself besides\n\n1028\n00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:52.440\nyour family and friends what's your most prized possession my memories if I\n\n1029\n00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:53.120\nturned on the radio\n\n1030\n00:56:53.120 --> 00:56:57.570\nin your car what would I hear I don't turn on the radio what's one of your\n\n1031\n00:56:57.570 --> 00:56:58.960\ndaily rituals something\n\n1032\n00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:03.290\nthat you'd never miss exercise that's great we're out of the lighting around\n\n1033\n00:57:03.290 --> 00:57:04.160\njust a few more\n\n1034\n00:57:04.160 --> 00:57:08.020\nquestions we'll wrap this up your run what do you see now is your unfinished\n\n1035\n00:57:08.020 --> 00:57:09.120\nbusiness it's writing\n\n1036\n00:57:09.120 --> 00:57:14.610\nthe book it's it's giving back I really you know I look back in my life I read\n\n1037\n00:57:14.610 --> 00:57:16.480\na few books in search\n\n1038\n00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:21.640\nof excellence principal standard leadership by Stephen Covey Marianne\n\n1039\n00:57:21.640 --> 00:57:22.960\nWilliamson's book I get\n\n1040\n00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:28.180\nan idea one idea and they changed how I led and I just felt like with the\n\n1041\n00:57:28.180 --> 00:57:30.160\nexperience I had primarily\n\n1042\n00:57:30.160 --> 00:57:35.350\nan apple and some of the other that if I wrote a book and shared what I was\n\n1043\n00:57:35.350 --> 00:57:36.480\nthinking about in\n\n1044\n00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:42.350\nlessons of working with Steve they might help young leaders and so that's my\n\n1045\n00:57:42.350 --> 00:57:44.160\npriority and so I\n\n1046\n00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:48.020\nI'm spending a lot of time on these podcasts like this I look forward to\n\n1047\n00:57:48.020 --> 00:57:50.560\nspeaking writing the book\n\n1048\n00:57:50.560 --> 00:57:55.260\nit's kind of giving back through sharing some of the beliefs and experiences I\n\n1049\n00:57:55.260 --> 00:57:55.680\n've had\n\n1050\n00:57:55.680 --> 00:58:01.200\nfantastic and last question here what's one piece of advice you'd give to\n\n1051\n00:58:01.200 --> 00:58:02.400\nanyone who wants to be a\n\n1052\n00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:07.590\nbetter leader choose kindness you know people are really naturally hard on\n\n1053\n00:58:07.590 --> 00:58:08.480\nthemselves\n\n1054\n00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:15.200\nyou know we need to encourage people and that's about being kind and being\n\n1055\n00:58:15.200 --> 00:58:16.560\navailable to help them\n\n1056\n00:58:16.560 --> 00:58:22.000\nbe the best that they can be well Ron I want to thank you for for helping all\n\n1057\n00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:23.360\nthe listeners here\n\n1058\n00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:27.360\nbe the the best that they can be by sharing your insights and your learnings\n\n1059\n00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:28.960\nand you know wish you\n\n1060\n00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:33.310\na lot of success with your your new book shop different and uh you know I'm\n\n1061\n00:58:33.310 --> 00:58:34.720\nsure they'll they'll\n\n1062\n00:58:34.720 --> 00:58:38.880\nthere'll be a lot of people touched by by your memories and and your insights\n\n1063\n00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:39.600\nso thank you very\n\n1064\n00:58:39.600 --> 00:58:43.200\nmuch you know really enjoy the conversation have a great day\n\n1065\n00:58:43.200 --> 00:58:53.360\nDavid it's not very often that you get behind the scenes stories about what it\n\n1066\n00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:54.320\nwas like to work\n\n1067\n00:58:54.320 --> 00:59:01.120\nfor Steve Jobs I mean what a career Ron Johnson has had those stories were wild\n\n1068\n00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:07.600\nwell you know he's he's had success in on so many fronts and the you know\n\n1069\n00:59:07.600 --> 00:59:08.880\ntarget was enormously\n\n1070\n00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:14.080\nsuccessful and because of that he was the guy behind their design approach that\n\n1071\n00:59:14.080 --> 00:59:15.200\nreally you know\n\n1072\n00:59:15.200 --> 00:59:21.600\nhelped turn that business around you know he Steve Jobs who wanted to meet him\n\n1073\n00:59:21.600 --> 00:59:22.560\nand talk to him\n\n1074\n00:59:22.560 --> 00:59:26.760\nbecause he wanted that he had this vision for the Apple store and he felt that\n\n1075\n00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:27.280\nRon was the\n\n1076\n00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:30.960\nguy who could make it happen and it was a great decision because those two guys\n\n1077\n00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:31.920\ntogether created\n\n1078\n00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:36.000\nthe Apple store that we all know and love today it was so interesting hearing\n\n1079\n00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:37.040\nhim talk about the\n\n1080\n00:59:37.040 --> 00:59:42.230\nfact that much of what they built 25 years ago is still the same today and it\n\n1081\n00:59:42.230 --> 00:59:43.120\nfeels so new and\n\n1082\n00:59:43.120 --> 00:59:47.830\nfresh anytime you go into an Apple store but it's just it was their vision from\n\n1083\n00:59:47.830 --> 00:59:48.880\nthe very beginning\n\n1084\n00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:52.460\nand that's just you know the sign of people who really understand design and\n\n1085\n00:59:52.460 --> 00:59:53.600\nhow humans interact\n\n1086\n00:59:53.600 --> 00:59:57.800\nand and have a big vision David I'm excited to to break down some of the key\n\n1087\n00:59:57.800 --> 00:59:58.960\nthemes that you and\n\n1088\n00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:04.580\nRon discussed in this episode and the first one is this concept of big vision\n\n1089\n01:00:04.580 --> 01:00:06.240\nand how it really only\n\n1090\n01:00:06.240 --> 01:00:11.810\nworks if people come with you. Ron obviously had a big vision for target he had\n\n1091\n01:00:11.810 --> 01:00:12.720\na big vision for\n\n1092\n01:00:12.720 --> 01:00:17.420\nApple retail what he didn't do well is take people with him at J.C. Penney so\n\n1093\n01:00:17.420 --> 01:00:18.880\nbreak that idea down\n\n1094\n01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:23.150\nfor me and why you think he was successful where he did take people with him\n\n1095\n01:00:23.150 --> 01:00:24.240\nand why he wasn't so\n\n1096\n01:00:24.240 --> 01:00:29.520\nsuccessful when he did it. Yeah well I think that that you can dream it up but\n\n1097\n01:00:29.520 --> 01:00:30.400\nyou got to do it up\n\n1098\n01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:35.170\nin fact you know I've written a country song about that and and you have to not\n\n1099\n01:00:35.170 --> 01:00:36.560\nonly have the dream\n\n1100\n01:00:36.560 --> 01:00:40.690\nbut you got to have the ability to execute you know I think in Apple he was\n\n1101\n01:00:40.690 --> 01:00:41.760\nbrought in to build\n\n1102\n01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:45.670\nthe Apple store from scratch and and create the concept that we all know and\n\n1103\n01:00:45.670 --> 01:00:46.560\nlove today and he\n\n1104\n01:00:46.560 --> 01:00:52.720\nwas able to to take people with him he interviewed every every store manager\n\n1105\n01:00:52.720 --> 01:00:55.680\nyou know he literally\n\n1106\n01:00:55.680 --> 01:01:03.760\nyou know was into the people very very deeply and communicated to them what the\n\n1107\n01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:05.040\nApple vision was\n\n1108\n01:01:05.040 --> 01:01:08.930\nand how they could really support it and drive it and made them all feel\n\n1109\n01:01:08.930 --> 01:01:10.160\nimportant because they\n\n1110\n01:01:10.160 --> 01:01:15.790\nwere the key to bringing the vision that he and Steve Jobs had to live and he\n\n1111\n01:01:15.790 --> 01:01:17.040\nbuilt a\n\n1112\n01:01:17.040 --> 01:01:22.160\nheck of a business so much so that he was recruited by J.C. Penney to become\n\n1113\n01:01:22.160 --> 01:01:24.160\nthe the the CEO there and\n\n1114\n01:01:24.160 --> 01:01:29.570\nand there he kind of came in as the guru the guy who who knew how to turn\n\n1115\n01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:31.680\naround retail brands the\n\n1116\n01:01:31.680 --> 01:01:38.560\nthe king of marketing and the king of consumer thinking behind a retail brand\n\n1117\n01:01:38.560 --> 01:01:40.640\nand you know he had\n\n1118\n01:01:40.640 --> 01:01:44.690\nthis vision which to this day I think he'd go to his grave saying it was the\n\n1119\n01:01:44.690 --> 01:01:46.400\nright vision but he\n\n1120\n01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:51.590\ndidn't take the time to take people with him so that they could know why he was\n\n1121\n01:01:51.590 --> 01:01:52.640\ndoing what he was\n\n1122\n01:01:52.640 --> 01:01:59.160\ndoing and why it was the way forward why it would really drive the success and\n\n1123\n01:01:59.160 --> 01:02:00.640\nas a result he was\n\n1124\n01:02:00.640 --> 01:02:05.070\nthe savior that nobody really wanted it at J.C. Penney because they didn't\n\n1125\n01:02:05.070 --> 01:02:06.800\nunderstand the why\n\n1126\n01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:11.040\nand he's the I really loved his honesty because he talked about how he would\n\n1127\n01:02:11.040 --> 01:02:12.080\nhave taken the time to\n\n1128\n01:02:12.080 --> 01:02:17.480\nmake sure he had people on the bus uh motivated and excited about where they're\n\n1129\n01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:18.880\nheaded versus just\n\n1130\n01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:24.070\ngoing in there and making change so quickly so you know I think the real lesson\n\n1131\n01:02:24.070 --> 01:02:24.960\nhere is that\n\n1132\n01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:29.640\nyou got to take people with you you know whether you have a startup like he did\n\n1133\n01:02:29.640 --> 01:02:30.560\nat at Apple where\n\n1134\n01:02:30.560 --> 01:02:35.720\nhe was able to take people from the ground floor to to where they you know have\n\n1135\n01:02:35.720 --> 01:02:36.960\nso many stores today\n\n1136\n01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:43.080\nbut with this imprint behind it uh or and it's particularly important for when\n\n1137\n01:02:43.080 --> 01:02:44.080\nyou go into a new\n\n1138\n01:02:44.080 --> 01:02:49.270\norganization where there's so many traditions and so many thoughts about what\n\n1139\n01:02:49.270 --> 01:02:50.640\nworks and what doesn't\n\n1140\n01:02:50.640 --> 01:02:55.800\nwork that you take the time to let everybody know that you've heard them and\n\n1141\n01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:56.720\nthen come out with\n\n1142\n01:02:56.720 --> 01:03:00.710\nyour vision and and do it in a way that you take people with you so that I\n\n1143\n01:03:00.710 --> 01:03:02.640\nthink this was a great\n\n1144\n01:03:02.640 --> 01:03:07.830\nconversation for every leader to really understand the importance of taking\n\n1145\n01:03:07.830 --> 01:03:09.120\npeople with you because\n\n1146\n01:03:09.120 --> 01:03:13.840\nnothing big ever happens unless you you take people with you. Why do you think\n\n1147\n01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:15.840\nDavid that so many leaders\n\n1148\n01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:19.950\nfall victim to that trap of not taking people with him is it because it just\n\n1149\n01:03:19.950 --> 01:03:20.880\ntakes time and\n\n1150\n01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:24.170\nthey're in such a hurry and so many things are on their plate or what do you\n\n1151\n01:03:24.170 --> 01:03:24.960\nsee as the reason\n\n1152\n01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:28.820\nmost people don't. I think people are in a hurry to get done what they think\n\n1153\n01:03:28.820 --> 01:03:31.040\nneeds to be done right\n\n1154\n01:03:31.040 --> 01:03:37.570\nokay and you know and eat that they just want to get going but let me tell you\n\n1155\n01:03:37.570 --> 01:03:39.040\nsomething one thing\n\n1156\n01:03:39.040 --> 01:03:44.720\nI've learned and I talk about it all the time is if you skip a level uh you pay\n\n1157\n01:03:44.720 --> 01:03:45.360\nif you don't get\n\n1158\n01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:48.910\npeople engaged and then you don't get people that work for them engaged and you\n\n1159\n01:03:48.910 --> 01:03:49.680\nskip a level\n\n1160\n01:03:49.680 --> 01:03:53.150\nanywhere along the line in a big corporation where people understand why you're\n\n1161\n01:03:53.150 --> 01:03:54.080\ngetting done\n\n1162\n01:03:54.080 --> 01:03:59.360\nit will ultimately slow you down so your desire to go fast you know actually\n\n1163\n01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:00.400\nmany times will slow\n\n1164\n01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:05.840\nyou down and and sometimes it'll you will fail. I'm in his example is JC Penny\n\n1165\n01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:07.040\nyou know my example\n\n1166\n01:04:07.040 --> 01:04:11.200\nwould be Crystal Pepsi both might have been the right approach the right idea\n\n1167\n01:04:11.200 --> 01:04:12.800\ncould have been\n\n1168\n01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:17.120\nhome runs if you've been executed well with people behind him but both ended up\n\n1169\n01:04:17.120 --> 01:04:17.920\nbeing failures\n\n1170\n01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:22.620\nbecause we didn't take people with us. I want to know from your perspective\n\n1171\n01:04:22.620 --> 01:04:24.480\nDavid like Steve did\n\n1172\n01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:29.670\nin his role at Apple specifically with Ron he became a leader that people\n\n1173\n01:04:29.670 --> 01:04:30.640\nreally wanted to\n\n1174\n01:04:30.640 --> 01:04:36.120\nwork for so how do you become the type of leader that people really want to\n\n1175\n01:04:36.120 --> 01:04:37.520\nwork for and work with\n\n1176\n01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:42.800\nnumber one you have to have a dream you have to have that big dream you have to\n\n1177\n01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:43.760\nhave that vision\n\n1178\n01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:48.160\nthat people want to get behind and be a part of like I always say people don't\n\n1179\n01:04:48.160 --> 01:04:48.960\ngo to work every\n\n1180\n01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:52.430\nday to be a part of something mediocre they want to be a part of greatness so\n\n1181\n01:04:52.430 --> 01:04:53.760\nyou have to sell\n\n1182\n01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:59.120\nsell the dream then you have to let people know that that you believe in them\n\n1183\n01:04:59.120 --> 01:05:01.440\nthat that you you\n\n1184\n01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:04.390\nbelieve in them and you're going to help them achieve their goals and you're\n\n1185\n01:05:04.390 --> 01:05:05.360\ngoing to do everything\n\n1186\n01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:09.600\nyou can to develop them as a leader and once people know you care about them\n\n1187\n01:05:09.600 --> 01:05:12.880\nthey will care about you\n\n1188\n01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:21.110\nand and you know I really believe that you know those are the two big things\n\n1189\n01:05:21.110 --> 01:05:23.680\nthat will get people\n\n1190\n01:05:23.680 --> 01:05:28.010\nwanting to work for you know the other things that he talked about was the fact\n\n1191\n01:05:28.010 --> 01:05:29.600\nthat he was very\n\n1192\n01:05:29.600 --> 01:05:36.080\ngreat at the delegation but you know he had a process for delegating Steve Jobs\n\n1193\n01:05:36.080 --> 01:05:36.880\ndidn't delegate\n\n1194\n01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:40.420\nuntil he knew how you thought and he believed in you and that's why he had\n\n1195\n01:05:40.420 --> 01:05:41.680\nthese APM meetings with\n\n1196\n01:05:41.680 --> 01:05:47.580\nwith Ron and where they talked about you know how they thought about the\n\n1197\n01:05:47.580 --> 01:05:49.840\nbusiness and once he\n\n1198\n01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:54.560\nknew they were alive then he started the delegate okay but he didn't hand over\n\n1199\n01:05:54.560 --> 01:05:55.520\nthe keys the day he\n\n1200\n01:05:55.520 --> 01:06:01.600\nwalked the door trust me on that so you know the great great leaders will\n\n1201\n01:06:01.600 --> 01:06:03.600\ndelegate once they know\n\n1202\n01:06:03.600 --> 01:06:08.790\nyou've demonstrated you have the capability to run your business and and and\n\n1203\n01:06:08.790 --> 01:06:10.000\nrun it well so\n\n1204\n01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:15.850\nthe other thing is is that Steve Steve Jobs would change his mind you know I\n\n1205\n01:06:15.850 --> 01:06:16.800\nmean they were heading\n\n1206\n01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:21.960\none way with the retail store and they went another way and he because why he\n\n1207\n01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:22.720\nwanted to be a part\n\n1208\n01:06:22.720 --> 01:06:29.280\nof greatness he came back to his his dream and the other thing is that you know\n\n1209\n01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:30.320\nhe didn't squash\n\n1210\n01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:35.510\npeople's ideas he added to them you know so he made whatever ideas you had\n\n1211\n01:06:35.510 --> 01:06:36.800\nbetter and and I guess\n\n1212\n01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:41.070\nthe last thing I would say in terms of why people want to work for you is you\n\n1213\n01:06:41.070 --> 01:06:42.160\nrecognize the heck\n\n1214\n01:06:42.160 --> 01:06:46.500\nAdam when they do great things you know if you see greatness you tell them that\n\n1215\n01:06:46.500 --> 01:06:47.440\n's really really\n\n1216\n01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:53.200\nimportant and and I think it's proven to work and people crave recognition and\n\n1217\n01:06:53.200 --> 01:06:53.840\nthey want\n\n1218\n01:06:53.840 --> 01:06:57.760\ncoaching from their boss and they want appreciation from their boss so you can\n\n1219\n01:06:57.760 --> 01:06:59.680\ndo that you're home free\n\n1220\n01:06:59.680 --> 01:07:04.870\nI love it David the final theme that I want to get your opinion and perspective\n\n1221\n01:07:04.870 --> 01:07:05.360\non is\n\n1222\n01:07:05.360 --> 01:07:10.520\nthis idea of the soft skills so throughout this whole conversation I heard Ron\n\n1223\n01:07:10.520 --> 01:07:11.280\nsay things like\n\n1224\n01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:17.200\nkindness and we leave with love and we look for people to hire who love people\n\n1225\n01:07:17.200 --> 01:07:18.240\nand it's not often\n\n1226\n01:07:18.240 --> 01:07:22.400\nthat we hear that kind of language in an interview with a high-powered\n\n1227\n01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:23.840\nexecutive and leader like\n\n1228\n01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:29.280\nRon Johnson so I know you always say it is that soft stuff that drives the hard\n\n1229\n01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:30.240\nresults but break\n\n1230\n01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:34.030\nthat down a little bit I mean what do leaders really need to be doing to\n\n1231\n01:07:34.030 --> 01:07:35.600\nincorporate more of that\n\n1232\n01:07:35.600 --> 01:07:40.300\nsoft stuff into their leadership and into their culture I think what you do is\n\n1233\n01:07:40.300 --> 01:07:41.440\nyou got to recognize\n\n1234\n01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:45.430\nthat you don't have to be a hard-ass to be a great leader you know that people\n\n1235\n01:07:45.430 --> 01:07:46.240\nare going to follow\n\n1236\n01:07:46.240 --> 01:07:50.440\nyou because you're human that you have the characteristics and the empathy that\n\n1237\n01:07:50.440 --> 01:07:51.200\nmakes you a\n\n1238\n01:07:51.200 --> 01:07:54.850\ngood human being and you're not afraid to really talk about those\n\n1239\n01:07:54.850 --> 01:07:57.200\ncharacteristics and in Ron's case\n\n1240\n01:07:57.200 --> 01:08:02.390\nhe talks about kindness and love yeah and they and they sound like really soft\n\n1241\n01:08:02.390 --> 01:08:03.200\nfuzzy things for a\n\n1242\n01:08:03.200 --> 01:08:08.640\nhard-charging business person to have but the reality is is that it's the human\n\n1243\n01:08:08.640 --> 01:08:09.440\nstuff it's the\n\n1244\n01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:14.630\nsoft stuff that really differentiates you as a leader and helps you get the\n\n1245\n01:08:14.630 --> 01:08:15.680\nhard results now\n\n1246\n01:08:15.680 --> 01:08:21.370\nthat that's particularly true and critically true when you have vision and when\n\n1247\n01:08:21.370 --> 01:08:21.680\nyou have\n\n1248\n01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:26.010\ncapability and you have knowledge and you have creativity you combine that with\n\n1249\n01:08:26.010 --> 01:08:27.200\nthe soft stuff\n\n1250\n01:08:27.200 --> 01:08:33.200\nman you're going to have great great success and I think in this particular\n\n1251\n01:08:33.200 --> 01:08:34.400\nconversation\n\n1252\n01:08:34.400 --> 01:08:41.050\nwe saw that Ron had great soft stuff to get hard results when he was at apple\n\n1253\n01:08:41.050 --> 01:08:42.800\nbecause people saw\n\n1254\n01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:47.960\nhis love and they saw his kindness I think when he went to JC Penney you know\n\n1255\n01:08:47.960 --> 01:08:49.040\nit's a case history\n\n1256\n01:08:49.040 --> 01:08:54.450\nwhere he didn't take the time to show the kindness and the love and and get\n\n1257\n01:08:54.450 --> 01:08:56.080\neverybody behind him\n\n1258\n01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:00.160\nso that he could truly drive the massive change that they needed to make and\n\n1259\n01:09:00.160 --> 01:09:01.040\nthere's no question\n\n1260\n01:09:01.040 --> 01:09:04.680\nthey they needed to make massive change and it just didn't happen for the\n\n1261\n01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:05.680\nreasons that he\n\n1262\n01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:12.480\narticulated so it was great great conversation Kula and I particularly loved\n\n1263\n01:09:12.480 --> 01:09:13.920\nyou know the contrast\n\n1264\n01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:19.110\nbetween dramatic success and then just abject failure and I think every leader\n\n1265\n01:09:19.110 --> 01:09:19.840\ngoes through\n\n1266\n01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:23.920\nthrough that in their career David as we wrap this episode what do you want\n\n1267\n01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:24.560\nfolks to walk\n\n1268\n01:09:24.560 --> 01:09:28.270\naway really thinking about and trying to implement into their leadership this\n\n1269\n01:09:28.270 --> 01:09:28.560\nweek\n\n1270\n01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:32.630\nwell I think the three things we've really talked about here important number\n\n1271\n01:09:32.630 --> 01:09:34.080\none big vision only\n\n1272\n01:09:34.080 --> 01:09:37.290\nworks if you take people with you so you got to take people with you and they\n\n1273\n01:09:37.290 --> 01:09:38.160\ngot to understand\n\n1274\n01:09:38.160 --> 01:09:41.650\nwhy you're heading in the direction that you're you're heading and many times\n\n1275\n01:09:41.650 --> 01:09:42.800\nin that process it's\n\n1276\n01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:46.170\ngoing to become a better direction because you get great insights from the\n\n1277\n01:09:46.170 --> 01:09:46.960\npeople you have the\n\n1278\n01:09:46.960 --> 01:09:52.200\nprivilege of leading number two you want to be a leader that people want to\n\n1279\n01:09:52.200 --> 01:09:53.360\nwork for you know\n\n1280\n01:09:53.360 --> 01:09:58.080\nso have a big dream and share it and let people know how much you really will\n\n1281\n01:09:58.080 --> 01:09:59.040\ncare about them\n\n1282\n01:09:59.040 --> 01:10:04.200\nand the third thing is is that the soft stuff really does get hard results\n\n1283\n01:10:04.200 --> 01:10:05.200\nnever ever forget it\n\n1284\n01:10:05.200 --> 01:10:10.240\nwell David thank you so much for another excellent episode of How Leaders Lead\n\n1285\n01:10:10.240 --> 01:10:13.490\nthank you Ron Johnson for joining us and sharing your insights with our\n\n1286\n01:10:13.490 --> 01:10:14.080\nlisteners\n\n1287\n01:10:14.080 --> 01:10:18.600\nand thank you to our listeners for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders\n\n1288\n01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:18.960\nLead\n\n1289\n01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:26.640\ncome back next Thursday and we will see you soon\n","is_pinned",false,"pinned_at","is_featured","featured_at","mix_url","https://chtbl.com/track/DCB44F/traffic.megaphone.fm/DVL9368737958.mp3","dx_media_id",4207,"video_media_id","thumbnail_image_media_id","published_date","2026-08-13","itunes_episode_id",304,"youtube_id","prCyYlfCu44","2026-08-19T21:46:46.000000Z","Listen to this leadership podcast with Ron Johnson, Creator of the Apple Store, and discover why love is the foundation for great customer 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