[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_135":-5,"_136":-5,"_137":138,"_139":140,"_141":142},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1154/what-to-do-when-you-disagree-with-your-boss","id",1154,"title","What to do when you disagree with your boss","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.930\nbecause there are going to be many times when you don't necessarily agree with\n\n2\n00:00:04.930 --> 00:00:06.000\nyour boss.\n\n3\n00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:11.000\nAnd I think the first thing you need to do is let your boss know that you\n\n4\n00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:13.000\nunderstand where they're coming from,\n\n5\n00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:17.000\nthat you've heard them and you know what they want to do.\n\n6\n00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:24.200\nThen what I think you need to do is to provide your perspective and your point\n\n7\n00:00:24.200 --> 00:00:28.000\nof view in as respectful ways you can.\n\n8\n00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:34.950\nYou know, as a subordinate, as someone who works for somebody else, your job is\n\n9\n00:00:34.950 --> 00:00:37.000\nto bring solutions.\n\n10\n00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:42.000\nYour job is to bring new ideas that can be more effective.\n\n11\n00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:46.160\nSo, you know, I always said, you know, I understand where you're coming from,\n\n12\n00:00:46.160 --> 00:00:49.000\nbut maybe we could think about it this way.\n\n13\n00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:54.030\nAnd, you know, I think that's a way how you can really have a good discussion\n\n14\n00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:57.000\non what the actual best-next step ought to be.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",202756,"end_time",259000,"keywords","disagreement, conflict, navigating conflict, differing opinion","slug","what-to-do-when-you-disagree-with-your-boss","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","x7I4M12uA1RLjzTgeNUqP7NcKXDDkzYNh8BgLVNapzI","mux_asset_id","kjEoxO027Earz5nzOK2O52tUNadi8wb28mcXKNmPo01Nk","leader_id",154,"episode_id",305,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:39:00.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1154/what-to-do-when-you-disagree-with-your-boss","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_98":99,"_100":101,"_102":103,"_25":104,"_105":106,"_60":107,"_57":108,"_109":110,"_67":111,"_39":112,"_113":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_114":115,"_86":116,"_44":117,"_118":119,"_120":121,"_46":-5,"_122":123,"_124":125,"_90":126,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":-5,"_54":-5,"_18":55,"_20":56,"_57":58,"_59":-5,"_60":58,"_61":-5,"_62":63,"_64":65,"_66":-5,"_67":-5,"_68":69,"_70":-5,"_71":-5,"_35":36,"_39":72,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_73":74,"_75":76,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":-5,"_82":-5,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_46":-5,"_87":88,"_89":-5,"_90":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","3 More Questions (Dr. Mark Esper) with David Novak and Koula Callahan","3-more-questions-dr-mark-esper-with-david-novak-and-koula-callahan","summary","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.580\nWelcome to How Leaders Lead. I'm Kula Kallahian here to bring you another\n\n2\n00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:08.360\nedition of three\n\n3\n00:00:08.360 --> 00:00:11.980\nmore questions with David Novak. David, it's great to be back on this show with\n\n4\n00:00:11.980 --> 00:00:12.400\nyou. How\n\n5\n00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:13.400\nare you?\n\n6\n00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:17.830\nI'm doing great. Kula and it's great to be with you as well. And I can't wait\n\n7\n00:00:17.830 --> 00:00:18.280\nto talk\n\n8\n00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:23.540\nabout the conversation we had with Mark Esper, the former United States\n\n9\n00:00:23.540 --> 00:00:25.400\nSecretary of Defense.\n\n10\n00:00:25.400 --> 00:00:31.320\nThis is a guy who is very decorated on almost every front. He was got the\n\n11\n00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:32.600\nleadership award\n\n12\n00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:39.230\nat the military academy, worked his way up in the armed forces, goes into\n\n13\n00:00:39.230 --> 00:00:41.320\nprivate industry,\n\n14\n00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:46.110\ndoes a fantastic job there and ends up being the Secretary of Defense for the\n\n15\n00:00:46.110 --> 00:00:47.360\nUnited States.\n\n16\n00:00:47.360 --> 00:00:49.000\nVery impressive person.\n\n17\n00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.910\nHe is a very impressive person. This conversation is fascinating and I'm\n\n18\n00:00:52.910 --> 00:00:54.640\nexcited to dive a little\n\n19\n00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:58.400\ndeeper into some of the concepts that you chat with Mark about in the episode.\n\n20\n00:00:58.400 --> 00:00:59.360\nSo for today's\n\n21\n00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:08.440\nedition of three more questions, let's get going.\n\n22\n00:01:08.440 --> 00:01:12.670\nQuestion number one. In the episode, Mark talks about how he stayed informed of\n\n23\n00:01:12.670 --> 00:01:12.960\nwhat\n\n24\n00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:16.950\nwas actually going on in the army. When he served as Secretary of the Army, a\n\n25\n00:01:16.950 --> 00:01:17.680\nleadership\n\n26\n00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:22.310\nposition at the very top of the ranks. From your perspective, David, how should\n\n27\n00:01:22.310 --> 00:01:22.680\nleaders\n\n28\n00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:27.370\nat the very top of their organization stay informed about what's actually going\n\n29\n00:01:27.370 --> 00:01:27.680\non in\n\n30\n00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:28.840\nthe business?\n\n31\n00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:32.990\nI think number one, you declare war on bureaucracy. You just can't have too\n\n32\n00:01:32.990 --> 00:01:34.320\nmany levels, too many\n\n33\n00:01:34.320 --> 00:01:37.840\nthings you have to go through to really get the real skinny in terms of what's\n\n34\n00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:38.360\ngoing on\n\n35\n00:01:38.360 --> 00:01:42.770\nin your business. So you'd say, we just can't waste our time on doing things\n\n36\n00:01:42.770 --> 00:01:43.600\nthat really\n\n37\n00:01:43.600 --> 00:01:48.640\naren't going to satisfy our customers or our constituencies. But I think the\n\n38\n00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:49.120\nbiggest thing\n\n39\n00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.420\nyou have to do is get out of your corner office and get out and talk to the\n\n40\n00:01:52.420 --> 00:01:53.080\npeople on the\n\n41\n00:01:53.080 --> 00:01:56.600\nfront line that are closest to your customers, closest to the people that you\n\n42\n00:01:56.600 --> 00:01:57.440\n're really trying\n\n43\n00:01:57.440 --> 00:02:02.690\nto serve, ask them what's working, what's not working, and really listen. Don't\n\n44\n00:02:02.690 --> 00:02:02.800\njust\n\n45\n00:02:02.800 --> 00:02:06.810\nask the questions, really listen to what people have to say. Don't go through\n\n46\n00:02:06.810 --> 00:02:07.560\nthe motions.\n\n47\n00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:09.480\nGo out there to truly learn.\n\n48\n00:02:09.480 --> 00:02:13.960\nA number of our podcast guests talk about this idea of doing a listening tour\n\n49\n00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:14.400\nwith the\n\n50\n00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:18.150\npeople on the front lines of their business and also with some of their top\n\n51\n00:02:18.150 --> 00:02:18.760\ncustomers.\n\n52\n00:02:18.760 --> 00:02:22.210\nAnd I love that idea, David, that you say, get out of your corner office and\n\n53\n00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:22.600\nget to the\n\n54\n00:02:22.600 --> 00:02:26.890\nfront lines because if you, the leader, are the person to keep a pulse on what\n\n55\n00:02:26.890 --> 00:02:27.640\n's actually\n\n56\n00:02:27.640 --> 00:02:31.610\nhappening in the business, then bureaucracy doesn't really have a chance to\n\n57\n00:02:31.610 --> 00:02:32.240\nstay around\n\n58\n00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:33.760\nyour organization for too long.\n\n59\n00:02:33.760 --> 00:02:36.910\nYeah, a lot of the leaders we talk to talk about the listening tour that they\n\n60\n00:02:36.910 --> 00:02:37.280\ngo on when\n\n61\n00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:42.210\nthey first start their new role or first become a CEO or go to a new sports\n\n62\n00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:43.600\nteam. They really\n\n63\n00:02:43.600 --> 00:02:48.490\ntry to understand what's going on. I think what you have to do is make it a\n\n64\n00:02:48.490 --> 00:02:49.880\ndaily ritual.\n\n65\n00:02:49.880 --> 00:02:56.120\nThat listening tour you're on is daily. It's not just a one-time event.\n\n66\n00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:01.640\nQuestion number two. Mark served as Secretary of Defense under President Trump.\n\n67\n00:03:01.640 --> 00:03:02.040\nAnd in the\n\n68\n00:03:02.040 --> 00:03:06.590\nepisode with Mark, you two discuss how he handled disagreements while working\n\n69\n00:03:06.590 --> 00:03:07.400\nwith President\n\n70\n00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:12.740\nTrump. It's fascinating to hear how he navigated those scenarios. And David,\n\n71\n00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:13.760\nthough you're\n\n72\n00:03:13.760 --> 00:03:17.540\nnot working for President Trump, I want to hear your opinion on how other\n\n73\n00:03:17.540 --> 00:03:18.360\nleaders should\n\n74\n00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.160\nhandle disagreements with their boss.\n\n75\n00:03:21.160 --> 00:03:25.080\nIt's a really good question because there are going to be many times when you\n\n76\n00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:25.480\ndon't\n\n77\n00:03:25.480 --> 00:03:30.750\nnecessarily agree with your boss. And I think the first thing you need to do is\n\n78\n00:03:30.750 --> 00:03:31.280\nlet your\n\n79\n00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:36.880\nboss know that you understand where they're coming from, that you've heard them\n\n80\n00:03:36.880 --> 00:03:37.320\nand you\n\n81\n00:03:37.320 --> 00:03:39.640\nknow what they want to do.\n\n82\n00:03:39.640 --> 00:03:46.880\nThen what I think you need to do is to provide your perspectives and your point\n\n83\n00:03:46.880 --> 00:03:48.160\nof view as\n\n84\n00:03:48.160 --> 00:03:55.920\nrespectful ways you can. As a subordinate, as someone who works for somebody\n\n85\n00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:56.600\nelse, your\n\n86\n00:03:56.600 --> 00:04:02.830\njob is to bring solutions. Your job is to bring new ideas that can be more\n\n87\n00:04:02.830 --> 00:04:04.160\neffective.\n\n88\n00:04:04.160 --> 00:04:09.000\nSo I always said, I understand where you're coming from, but maybe we could\n\n89\n00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:09.840\nthink about\n\n90\n00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:16.420\nit this way. And I think that's a way how you can really have a good discussion\n\n91\n00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:16.960\non what\n\n92\n00:04:16.960 --> 00:04:19.960\nthe actual best next step ought to be.\n\n93\n00:04:19.960 --> 00:04:24.340\nMark talks a lot in the episode about bringing options to your boss. So I think\n\n94\n00:04:24.340 --> 00:04:24.840\nDavid, to\n\n95\n00:04:24.840 --> 00:04:28.890\nyour point, this idea of not just saying that you disagree and you have a\n\n96\n00:04:28.890 --> 00:04:30.280\ndifferent perspective,\n\n97\n00:04:30.280 --> 00:04:34.260\nbut bringing other options and solutions to the table helps the conversation\n\n98\n00:04:34.260 --> 00:04:34.760\nnot just\n\n99\n00:04:34.760 --> 00:04:38.120\nstall out with the disagreement itself.\n\n100\n00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:40.980\nThe other thing that Mark talks about is really having a compass for your\n\n101\n00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:43.120\ndecision-making.\n\n102\n00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:48.240\nAnd his compass was, you know, follow the oath that he took when he went into\n\n103\n00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:48.960\noffice,\n\n104\n00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:55.270\nwhich is to uphold the Constitution of the United States. And so anything that\n\n105\n00:04:55.270 --> 00:04:55.760\nhe felt\n\n106\n00:04:55.760 --> 00:05:02.330\ntook you down the path that was really challenging that oath or challenging the\n\n107\n00:05:02.330 --> 00:05:03.880\nConstitution,\n\n108\n00:05:03.880 --> 00:05:07.510\nthat's when I think his hairs would go up on the back of his neck and say, hey,\n\n109\n00:05:07.510 --> 00:05:08.040\nthat's\n\n110\n00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:10.280\njust not going to happen.\n\n111\n00:05:10.280 --> 00:05:14.910\nQuestion number three, when Mark was Secretary of the Army, he focused heavily\n\n112\n00:05:14.910 --> 00:05:16.000\non recruiting.\n\n113\n00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:19.300\nWhen he took over, there were a bunch of problems with Army recruitment and the\n\n114\n00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:19.840\nnumbers were\n\n115\n00:05:19.840 --> 00:05:24.460\ngoing in the wrong direction. But under his leadership, they experienced a\n\n116\n00:05:24.460 --> 00:05:25.280\ndouble-digit\n\n117\n00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:27.880\nincrease in recruitment numbers.\n\n118\n00:05:27.880 --> 00:05:32.120\nDavid, what do leaders need to be thinking about when it comes to recruiting?\n\n119\n00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:36.220\nI think you got to realize that the most important thing you can do is have\n\n120\n00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:37.080\ngreat people, the\n\n121\n00:05:37.080 --> 00:05:41.540\nright amount of people, and people who are going to take your enterprise to the\n\n122\n00:05:41.540 --> 00:05:41.920\nnext\n\n123\n00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:49.090\nlevel. So you don't delegate the idea of recruiting. You are very engaged with\n\n124\n00:05:49.090 --> 00:05:49.800\nthe recruiting\n\n125\n00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.970\nprocess, what's working, what's not working. And when you have a chance as a\n\n126\n00:05:53.970 --> 00:05:54.480\nleader to\n\n127\n00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:59.810\nbring in a top talent, you go after that person personally. You support the\n\n128\n00:05:59.810 --> 00:06:00.360\npeople on your\n\n129\n00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:05.140\nteam. You help them get that person. And you do everything you can to bring the\n\n130\n00:06:05.140 --> 00:06:05.480\nstar\n\n131\n00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:08.920\nplayers into your organization and then keep them.\n\n132\n00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:13.230\nOne way to keep your recruiting needs down is to keep the great talent that you\n\n133\n00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:13.760\nhave.\n\n134\n00:06:13.760 --> 00:06:18.040\nAnd that's why I think it's so important also to really create a great culture.\n\n135\n00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.880\nDavid, do you have a story from your time at Yumbrands where you did that well?\n\n136\n00:06:21.880 --> 00:06:25.160\nWell, I'll tell you, cool. I'm not even going to talk about Yumbracks. I'm\n\n137\n00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:25.840\ngoing to go back\n\n138\n00:06:25.840 --> 00:06:29.850\nto when I was in the advertised agency business. I've made recruiting and\n\n139\n00:06:29.850 --> 00:06:31.240\nbringing in top talent\n\n140\n00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:36.940\none of my highest priorities from the very beginning of my career. We decided\n\n141\n00:06:36.940 --> 00:06:37.320\nthat we\n\n142\n00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:42.630\nwanted to bring in some really, really talented young stars. So we decided we\n\n143\n00:06:42.630 --> 00:06:43.200\nwere going to\n\n144\n00:06:43.200 --> 00:06:49.570\nrecruit from Northwestern University. And because they had a great marketing\n\n145\n00:06:49.570 --> 00:06:50.520\nand advertising\n\n146\n00:06:50.520 --> 00:06:56.720\nschool that basically focused on consumer insights. So we figured if we could\n\n147\n00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:57.360\nbring those\n\n148\n00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:02.070\npeople in and get the best of the best at Northwestern every year, we would\n\n149\n00:07:02.070 --> 00:07:03.080\nreally build\n\n150\n00:07:03.080 --> 00:07:09.720\nour team. So what we did is we had a recruiting day. We brought in the top\n\n151\n00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:11.240\npeople at Northwestern.\n\n152\n00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:16.970\nWe brought in like 10 to 15 people and we only had five jobs. So they're all in\n\n153\n00:07:16.970 --> 00:07:17.240\nthere\n\n154\n00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:21.790\ntrying to outdo each other when they're interviewing. And we had them interview\n\n155\n00:07:21.790 --> 00:07:23.360\nour best people.\n\n156\n00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:28.100\nWe had them see just the very best people in our agency. So we represented\n\n157\n00:07:28.100 --> 00:07:28.640\nourselves\n\n158\n00:07:28.640 --> 00:07:34.050\nso well. And then we had a really nice dinner that night and then they went\n\n159\n00:07:34.050 --> 00:07:35.160\nhome the next\n\n160\n00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:40.680\nday. So they got to know us. And we basically used a lot of what I learned\n\n161\n00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:41.280\nbeing the rush\n\n162\n00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:45.370\nchairman for Delta Yupslaw and fraternity at the University of Missouri. You\n\n163\n00:07:45.370 --> 00:07:45.840\nknow, if\n\n164\n00:07:45.840 --> 00:07:50.020\nyou want great talent, you got to do everything you can to bring in the great\n\n165\n00:07:50.020 --> 00:07:50.760\npeople. And let\n\n166\n00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:54.360\nme tell you something. We brought in the top five people Northwestern every\n\n167\n00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:55.000\nyear. It was\n\n168\n00:07:55.000 --> 00:08:00.200\nso powerful. And a lot of these people now are running functions, CEOs. They've\n\n169\n00:08:00.200 --> 00:08:00.680\ndone a\n\n170\n00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:05.550\ngreat job. And it's because we really focused on them. They really helped us\n\n171\n00:08:05.550 --> 00:08:07.880\nbuild the agency.\n\n172\n00:08:07.880 --> 00:08:13.080\nAnd it was that focus in the senior management attention to it that really made\n\n173\n00:08:13.080 --> 00:08:14.360\nit powerful.\n\n174\n00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:17.940\nThat's such a good point, David. You know, we've talked on this show about how\n\n175\n00:08:17.940 --> 00:08:18.480\nwhen you're\n\n176\n00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.730\ninterviewing for a job, it's not just the company interviewing you, but it's\n\n177\n00:08:22.730 --> 00:08:23.840\nalso you interviewing\n\n178\n00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:28.080\nthe company and just getting to learn everything you can about what that role\n\n179\n00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:29.200\nwill do. And so\n\n180\n00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:34.270\nprepping your senior managers or whoever is on your recruitment team to present\n\n181\n00:08:34.270 --> 00:08:34.920\nthe organization\n\n182\n00:08:34.920 --> 00:08:38.220\nwell and talk about the culture and why they love being part of that\n\n183\n00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:39.280\norganization is such\n\n184\n00:08:39.280 --> 00:08:44.200\na key piece of recruiting that I feel like a lot of times people forget.\n\n185\n00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:48.320\nWell, in sports, if you want to make you want to make that last shot, you don't\n\n186\n00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:48.880\nthrow it\n\n187\n00:08:48.880 --> 00:08:52.000\nto your worst player. Okay, you throw it to your best player and you have them\n\n188\n00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:52.400\ntake the\n\n189\n00:08:52.400 --> 00:08:55.840\nshot. If you want to bring in the best talent, you don't have people that are\n\n190\n00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:56.440\nlowering your\n\n191\n00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:02.320\norganization really leading the way on that front. You have your top people\n\n192\n00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:02.720\nleading the\n\n193\n00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:08.320\nway and this way you're going to make more baskets.\n\n194\n00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:16.650\nWell, that wraps our episode of three more questions for today. Thanks again\n\n195\n00:09:16.650 --> 00:09:17.000\nfor tuning\n\n196\n00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:20.980\nin to another episode of How Leaders Lead. We're on a mission to make the world\n\n197\n00:09:20.980 --> 00:09:21.320\na better\n\n198\n00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:25.300\nplace by developing better leaders. And if you carve out a little time with us\n\n199\n00:09:25.300 --> 00:09:25.600\neach and\n\n200\n00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:29.640\nevery week, we'll help you build the confidence you need to lead well.\n\n201\n00:09:29.640 --> 00:09:32.870\nAnd I want you to tune in this Thursday because we have a really special\n\n202\n00:09:32.870 --> 00:09:33.840\nconversation, one\n\n203\n00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:39.420\nthat I enjoyed so much with Yamani Rongan, the CEO of HubSpot, a customer\n\n204\n00:09:39.420 --> 00:09:40.520\nrelationship\n\n205\n00:09:40.520 --> 00:09:44.610\nmanagement company that is doing great things and you're going to love\n\n206\n00:09:44.610 --> 00:09:45.840\nlistening to Yamani.\n\n207\n00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:55.840\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n","

Koula Callahan 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead up Kula Callahan here to bring you another edition of three more questions with David Novak. David, it's great to be back on the show with you. How are ya?

David Novak 0:12

I'm doing great, cool. And it's great to be with you as well. And I can't wait to talk about the conversation we had with Mark Esper, the former United States Secretary of Defense. This is a guy who is very decorated and on almost every front, you know, he was got the Leadership Award at the military academy, worked his way up in the armed forces, goes into private industry does a fantastic job there and ends up being the Secretary of Defense for the United States, very impressive person.

Koula Callahan 0:48

He is a very impressive person, this conversation is fascinating. And I'm excited to dive a little deeper into some of the concepts that you chat with Mark about in the episode. So for today's edition of three more questions, let's get going.

Question number one. In the episode Mark talks about how he stayed informed of what was actually going on in the army, when he served as Secretary of the Army, a leadership position at the very top of the ranks. From your perspective, David, how should leaders at the very top of their organization stay informed about what's actually going on in the business?

David Novak 1:28

I think, number one, you declare war on bureaucracy, you just can't have too many levels, too many things you have to go through to really get the real skinny in terms of what's going on in your business. So you'd say we just can't waste our time on doing things that really aren't going to satisfy our customers or our constituencies. But I think the biggest thing you have to do is get out of your corner office and get out and talk to the people on the frontline that are closest to your customers closest to the people that you're really trying to serve. Ask them what's working, what's not working. And really listen, don't just ask the questions, really listen to what people have to say, don't go through the motions go out there to truly learn

Koula Callahan 2:09

a number of our podcast guests talk about this idea of doing a listening tour with the people on the front lines of their business and also with some of their top customers. And I love that idea, David that you say get out of your corner office and get to the front lines. Because if you're the leader or the person to keep a pulse on what's actually happening in the business, then bureaucracy doesn't really have a chance to stay around your organization for too long.

David Novak 2:33

Yeah, a lot of the leaders we talked to talk about the listening tour that they go on when they first start their new role or first become a CEO, or go to a new sports team. You know, they really try to understand what's going on. I think what you have to do is is make it a daily ritual, that listening tour you're on is daily. It's not just a one time event.

Koula Callahan 2:55

Question number two, Mark served as Secretary of Defense under President Trump, and in the episode with Mark you to discuss how he handled disagreements while working with President Trump. It's fascinating to hear how he navigated those scenarios. And, David, though you're not working for President Trump, I want to hear your opinion on how other leaders should you handle disagreements with their boss?

David Novak 3:20

It's a really good question. Because there are going to be many times when you don't necessarily agree with your boss. And I think the first thing you need to do is let your boss know that you understand where they're coming from, that you've heard them, and you know what they want to do, then what I think you need to do is to provide your perspective, and your point of view. And as respectful way as you can, you know, as a subordinate, as someone who works for somebody else, your job is to bring solutions, your job is to bring new ideas that can be more effective. So, you know, I always said, you know, I understand where you're coming from, but maybe we could think about it this way. And you know, I think that's a way how you can really have a good discussion on what the actual best next step out to be.

Koula Callahan 4:19

Mark talks a lot in the episode about bringing options to your boss. So I think, David, to your point, this idea of not just saying that you disagree, and you have a different perspective, but bringing other options and solutions to the table helps the conversation, not just stall out with the disagreement itself. The

David Novak 4:37

other thing that Mark talks about is really having a compass for your decision making. And his compass was, you know, follow the oath that he took when he went into office, which is to uphold the Constitution of the United States. And so anything that he felt took you down the path that was really challenging that Oh, Both or challenging the Constitution, that's when I think his hairs would go up on the back of his neck and say, hey, that's just not going to happen. Question

Koula Callahan 5:09

number three, when Mark was Secretary of the Army, he focused heavily on recruiting. When he took over, there were a bunch of problems with Army recruitment, and the numbers are going in the wrong direction. But under his leadership, they experienced a double digit increase in recruitment numbers. David, what do leaders need to be thinking about when it comes to recruiting, I

David Novak 5:32

think you got to realize that the most important thing you can do is have great people, the right amount of people, and people who are going to take your enterprise to the next level. So you don't delegate the idea of recruiting, you are very engaged with the recruiting process, what's working, what's not working. And when you have a chance, as a leader to bring in a top talent, you go after that person personally, you support the people on your team, you help them get that person, and you do everything you can to bring the star players into your organization, and then keep them you know, one way to keep your recruiting needs down is to keep the great talent that you have. And that's why I think it's so important also to to really create a great culture.

Koula Callahan 6:17

David, do you have a story from your time at yum brands where you did that? Well,

David Novak 6:21

I'll tell you a cool, I'm not even gonna talk about yum brands, I'm gonna go back to when I was in the advertising agency business, I made recruiting and bringing in top talent, one of my highest priorities. From the very beginning of my career, you know, we decided that we wanted to bring in some really, really talented young stars. So we decided we were going to recruit from Northwestern University. And because they had a great marketing and advertising school, that basically focused on consumer insights. So we figured if we could bring those people in and get the best of the best at Northwestern every year, we would really build our team. So what we did is we had a recruiting day, we brought in the top people at Northwestern, you know, we brought in like 10 to 15 people, and we only had five jobs. So they're all in there trying to outdo each other, you know, when they're interviewing, and we had them interview our best people, we had them see just the very best people in our agency. So we represented ourselves so well. And then we had a really nice dinner that night, and then they went home the next day. So they got to know us. And we basically used a lot of what I learned being the rush chairman for Delta Epsilon fraternity at the University of Missouri, you know, if you want great talent, you got to do everything you can to bring in the great people. And let me tell you something, we brought in the top five people in northwestern every year, it was so powerful. And a lot of these people now are running functions, CEOs, they've done great job. And it's because we really focused on them. They really helped us build the agency. And it was that focus in the senior management attention to it, that really made it powerful.

Koula Callahan 8:14

That's such a good point, David, you know, we've talked on this show about how when you're interviewing for a job, it's not just the company interviewing you. But it's also you interviewing the company and just getting to learn everything you can about what that role will do. And so prepping your senior managers or whoever is on your recruitment team to present the organization well, and talk about the culture and why they love being part of that organization is such a key piece of recruiting that I feel like a lot of times people forget,

David Novak 8:44

well, in sports, if you want to make it you want to make that last shot. You don't throw it to your worst player, okay? You throw it to your best player and you have them take the shot. If you want to bring in the best talent. You don't have people that are lower in your organization really leading the way on that front. You have your top people leading the way. And this way, you're gonna make more best.

Koula Callahan 9:11

Well, that wraps our episode of three more questions for today. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead. We're on a mission to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And if you carve out a little time with us each and every week, we'll help you build the confidence you need to lead well.

David Novak 9:29

And I want you to tune in this Thursday because we have a really special conversation one that I enjoyed so much with Yamani Rondon, the CEO of HubSpot, a customer relationship management company, that is doing great things, and you're gonna love listening to Yamini

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